Idea: a solution for non-AoE weapons

[Dairaion]

i also have a solution.

Armor Piercing, if a non explosive weapon surpasses a targets armor it gets a automatic punch through of +1.

now some weapons will benefit from both like the zarr and grenade launching rifles, but these are rare and the bonus isn't big enough to make everyone want to use them over other choices.

[Tiltskillet]

20 hours ago, Dairaion said:

Armor Piercing, if a non explosive weapon surpasses a targets armor . . .

What does this mean?

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

On 2022-12-29 at 3:39 PM, Kaichi16 said:

how? all "difficulty" DE know is "makes numbers go big". as far as i understand, difficulty should be something that tests your skills... in warframe, you literally do the same thing everywhere

This isn't true, you can see in many of the quests and the Kahl missions that they know how to pitch different difficulty levels and balance within them.

The problem here definitely isn't incompetence - Warframe has been running for about a decade now, and it's always been a power fantasy. 

Power creep is a common problem in all MMOs and there isn't a single best way to fix it. Common solutions include resets that nerf the previous season's gear or new enemies that are either much tankier or only weak to a new damage type from new weapons.

They definitely don't get it all right... it especially sucks that new primes are such meagre tweaks (for fear of power creep) that their higher dispo base versions remain better.

But if you want "something that tests your skills" you're probably looking at the wrong game, that isn't what a PvE MMO is going to be about - sure, they could add difficulty spike islands and quests, and they have, but mostly it's going to be about levelling your gear and then rinsing once-challenging enemies.

On 2022-12-29 at 6:16 PM, Tyreaus said:

On 2022-12-28 at 5:42 PM, Kaichi16 said:

this is how it should be, right... not sure if DE can program something like that, as warframe has this spaghetti code, any fix will break other ten stuff.

I think this gives DE too little credit

Seconded - I've no idea what Warframe's code base looks like, and sure some things will be limited by technical debt in old code (that's why cross play has been so much harder than for a new title that had it from the start), but I very much doubt it's the limiting factor here.

DE have shown, again and again, that they can change proc effects, spawn rates and the like very quickly - the limits tend to be the complexity and the community. 

For example, take when they fixed shotgun status procs. Shotguns used to hit a bug at 100% status, so that instead of the whole barrage having a total 100% chance (which was the case at 99%) every pellet would have 100% instead. A Slash-biased high-multishot shotgun that could hit 100% status was meta, any other shotgun relatively worthless. When DE fixed that they also buffed all the shotguns, and players still moaned that their Tigris Prime had been nerfed.

The problem here is that they need to boost semi/auto non-AoE weapons without taking everyone's Bramma away.

[Kaichi16]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

you can see in many of the quests

while some quests are pretty interesting, it's very hard to call any of them "difficult". i highly doubt you had to even think to finish any quest. 

besides being 100% straight forward, we have lotus telling exactly what we should do... 

maybe as a new player, when you first encounter some quests, it might be a little difficult if you dont pay attention to lotus. 

there are even quests where you literally cant die. you reach 1 HP, but you wont die. some quests have lots of checkpoints so failing = just returning 1 minute. 

i'm not saying quests are bad, some of them are pretty fun, but they cant be called difficult/complex. 

also please explain me which quests are hard and how. i'd love to understand your point. 

4 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Kahl missions

kahl missions are literally "collect X". okay, we have other objectives smaller too, but... kahl just walks and shoots stuff. he's got a lot of health, which regenerates with time, enemies are so low lvl you can kill sentients with an unmodded grakata. 

could you please explain how any of those are difficult? 

i'd say they are boring because of how slow they are and the lack of progress it feels. think about it, you play all 3 weeks, then in the fourth week, there's kahl again, going to a place he already went to get something he already got. how does this make any sense? 

kahl missions should stay as a quest. it may be fun to do once, but at the second time you realize how boring it is. 

i wont just criticize it, i'll propose a solution: how about making kahl missions rogue-like? each mission spawns random upgrades or random weapons for kahl to use in that mission only(that'd explain why he loses all he collected after the mission is over), maps could be improved too as we're literally running through the same maps. at least 3 variations of each map, maybe? if DE is so capable, they can do this, right? or am i asking too much?

4 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

Common solutions include resets that nerf the previous season's gear or new enemies that are either much tankier or only weak to a new damage type from new weapons.

yes, this works for MMOs, but warframe is a horde shooter. all of those are just number changes. 

it feels like neglecting the potential a shooter can have.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

PvE MMO is going to be about

thank god, because warframe is not an PvE MMO xD

it's a single player horde shooter with coop feature.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/WARFRAME

there isnt a single place listing warframe as "MMO" because people know it's not. 

if warframe is an MMO then borderlands is too lol

5 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

But if you want "something that tests your skills" you're probably looking at the wrong game

you're 100% right. warframe isnt about difficulty and i'm not playing it for it. i like difficult games and i'd be happy if warframe had any mode with any kind of difficulty, but that's not the reason i play warframe.

why do people keep asking for warframe difficulty when we are allowed to do literally millions of damage with barely any effort? a full reset + a full reformulation of all warframe content could create this, but i highly doubt they'll do something like this.

maybe someday, they'll release "warframe classics" server, because they filled the game with so many power creeps and random crap.

4 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

they can change proc effects, spawn rates

so, hm. proc effects change was nice but... they just reused things that were already in game. i'm pretty sure it's not hard to just copy it. no rocket science here.

but indeed, making status scale with the amount of procs is very cool. 

spawn rates are numbers, so yep, another easy change. 

 

but let's talk about something interesting about they did: focus changes. 

focus schools are way more useful now. changes aren't that simple.

they removed void blast but added 2 abilities, allowed us to transfer to frame into melee attacks/finishers. some abilities are aoe, some are buffs, it's very interesting. (new things, that werent just copy pasted from other parts of the game)

of course, most people will just use madurai or zenurik, but others aren't borderline useless anymore. 

5 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

For example, take when they fixed shotgun status procs. Shotguns used to hit a bug at 100% status, so that instead of the whole barrage having a total 100% chance (which was the case at 99%) every pellet would have 100% instead. A Slash-biased high-multishot shotgun that could hit 100% status was meta, any other shotgun relatively worthless. When DE fixed that they also buffed all the shotguns, and players still moaned that their Tigris Prime had been nerfed.

this was nice, fixing a bug that favored players but buffing the weapon class too so we dont feel like we lost something. 

now... what did they buff to AoE weapons when they nerfed ammo? and how better are single target weapons after AoE got nerfed? how did they make single target weapons better by making AoE less pleasant to play (AoE is still stronger, it's just more bothersome to use)?

just a quick reminder: AoE isnt the problem, content being designed to favor AoE is.

5 hours ago, (XBOX)KayAitch said:

The problem here is that they need to boost semi/auto non-AoE weapons without taking everyone's Bramma away.

the problem here is that even if they do this, single target weapons still only can kill a single target, while AoE can kill lots

it's a game design problem, they keep making gamemodes where kills per second are incentivized and in such modes, AoE will always be more effective. single target isnt unusable, but it's less effective.

but look, they made archons, boss fights where single target weapons are better than AoE. so they know how to do it.

it's about knowing your tool's advantages and disadvantages and making gamemodes that favor them. example:

• in survival modes, AoE is king
• in disruption, single target is... better

i think i give DE too little credit because it's been a few years they keep repeating the same mistakes, but of course i'd love to see the game improving. i just lost my faith they can do it.

i think removing Steve things-will-stay-as-i-want sinclair from warframe team was a great start. no more stupid ideas being taken from other games, i hope.

[Famecans]

Single target weapons do not have enough damage to compete with the efficiency of AoE weapons, AoE weapons can clear rooms by killing irrelevant enemies but cannot kill elite enemies, single target weapons cannot kill dozens of irrelevant enemies but i would love for it to have enough damage to kill elite enemies.

I think the DE should improve or rework mechanics already present in the game related to single target weapons, such as punch througth and damage elements for stats above 10 tiks.

AoE weapons don't work with punch througth AoE weapons suck for stat tiks (an example is the uselessness of viral damage 10 tiks on weapons like tonkor you need to unload a lot of ammo to reach 10 tiks) so just reformulate the stat system for elementals underrated in-game eg pierce/magnetize/gas/explode do trick functionality or damage amplification.

Something like 10 tiks of magnetic status to create a magnetic orb on the target enemy (similar to the black magnetic orbs in sabotage missions); Killed enemies with 10 tikes of explosive status will explode target enemy spreading status in an area; target enemy killed by 10 tikes of gas trigger "headshot kill" for mods; new dual status mods with elemental + punchthrougth not equippable on AoE weapons, create a new category for weapons above 2m AoE range.