Mesa without shield gating?

[Badniss]

I've read through some builds on overframe.gg, watched four or five youtube videos, and browsed through the forums here a few pages all in an effort to find Mesa builds that aren't shield gate builds. So far not really much luck unfortunately. Anyone have a direction they can point me toward to find build advice that does not use this technique? I enjoy playing the frame from time to time, but I'm either so far off of the damage number I see in these videos or I've got a bit of increased survivability with shield, health and armor mods but can't seem to find a good middle ground.

[Badniss]

16 hours ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

Uh well sort of depends. Like what or where are you specifically struggling etc. The best advice usually targets a specific want or need. As for general advice though? Well generally speaking, by default, unless you are playing as Nidus or Inaros, all people take advantage of shield gating. Its what will prevent you from being potentially one shot from most enemies, with a few exceptions. You don't have to be conscious or actively attempting this for this effect to be in action. Usually when people specify shield gating techniques, they just mean, taking conscious advantage of this and building to best take advantage, either via combinations of reduced shields so faster shield refill, techniques that fill shields faster, so on. I personally don't focus on shield gating myself, but I am mobile and evasive with Warframes as a play style so routinely benefit, because my reflexes and game sense is superior to the games AI. 

In harder difficulties, often extra health, and especially shields, won't matter as much to survivability, as say powers, especially any that give damage resistance. A great way for Mesa to boost survivability, is through Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery (plus to some extent just killing enemies with her 4 before they can harm you). So ensuring you have sufficient duration to keep your 2 and 3 up is good. One gives Damage Reduction, the other will give a soft CC to enemies. 

Likewise Adaptation and Rolling Guard can give bigger benefits in harder content, especially in combination with your abilities. 

Helminth is popular for Mesa too, since many find her 1 to be underwhelming, so replacing it either with Pillage or Gloom. 

Good luck. 

Understood! I just seem to struggle with shield gating for some reason, just inexperience for the most part but I've watched so many videos where it seems so smooth and flawless I get a bit discouraged when I'm losting 125pt of shield, pop an ability that gives me back 23pt, instantly busted and I'm spamming the ability again but have already lost more than half my health and less than a second later shields are down again. Something about the abilities to spam and the timing isn't clicking in my brain.

[Skoomaseller]

On 2023-01-10 at 1:28 PM, Badniss said:

I've read through some builds on overframe.gg, watched four or five youtube videos, and browsed through the forums here a few pages all in an effort to find Mesa builds that aren't shield gate builds. So far not really much luck unfortunately. Anyone have a direction they can point me toward to find build advice that does not use this technique? I enjoy playing the frame from time to time, but I'm either so far off of the damage number I see in these videos or I've got a bit of increased survivability with shield, health and armor mods but can't seem to find a good middle ground.

hp + adaptation + enough str to max shatter shield. then mow down enemies so they can't hurt you more. works fine for me in steel path.

always have SS active.

also, if you're looking for help, this isn't the right subforum. just letting u know. maybe mods will move it idk.

[Kaichi16]

this shouldnt be in feedback subforum, but

mine doesnt use shieldgating too.

Vitality + Shatter Shield with enough strength and + arcane grace (and adaptation if you can fit)

it survives with zero problems up to mot SP 20min

[AegidiusF]

Le 11/01/2023 à 01:19, Badniss a dit :

Interesting! For Grendel's Nourish ability do you think it would be better or similar to infusing for Gloom,  or Dispensary?

It really depends.

I usued to infuse Dispensary, but the problem is that it tends to make you be a bit more stationnary (waiting for orbs).

Zenurik+Nourish is nice as you can regen 10 energy points per second (or even more, it depends on your Ability Strengh) while not using Peacemaker. Nourish multiplies the Zenurik's energy regen. The advantage is that you're less stationary and much less dependent of Energy Orbs.

Gloom is nice to regen HP, and it can be useful to regen energy if used with Hunter Adrenaline or Rage mods. This, however, has a limit in terms of enemy level, but you will be able to do Steel Path base level with this (you'll just have to be very careful with melee attacks or AoE). Pay attention to the fact that you'll need to lose your shields to regen energy with Hunter Adrenaline/Rage and that Gloom will drain your energy constantly (except if there is no enemy under its effect). It's a bit hard to use this technique on low level missions, as the damage your HP will take won't be enough to regen your energy. Before Sevagoth, I used to use this technique with many frames that are resistant to damage, but I used to take Sancti Magistar to regen my HP (it works nice and it was one of the old ways to benefit from Chroma's Vex Armor damage buff while shield gating). Also, your companion can heal your HP, if needed : you just need to put Hunter Recovery on it's build, but this also has some limits.

At the end, both are good, it depends on the build you're going to use. If you are going to play negative range, Gloom won't be the best, as an exemple.

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

that just means things are going so well you don't need have to worry about using your build. Just chill out till the level ramps up to the point you're needed.

I get what you're saying, but to me that just sounds boring. And there are times you still want to kill weaker enemies fast, like open world bounties... and the build often ends up being useless. Personally I'd rather just have a build that works everywhere, but to each their own.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

49 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Just be careful with Gloom builds. If enemies aren't a high enough level to do good damage, or if allies are CCing/killing them quick, then you'll quickly run out of energy.

that just means things are going so well you don't need have to worry about using your build. Just chill out till the level ramps up to the point you're needed.

[KitMeHarder]

2 hours ago, Badniss said:

And enough hit points with the build that shatter shield will "mostly" help with the survivability?

Oh yeah. It may take some getting used to, but Shatter Shield basically lets you ignore ranged attacks (Eclipse also gives you DR/evasion in the dark). Plus, with how fast you're killing, melee enemies basically never touch you (and even ranged enemies, if they're dead, they're not damaging you). If melee enemies are still getting close, you can activate Shooting Gallery to stun most of them (Though I highly recommend getting Waltz. Rolling lets you make distance and gives you 75% DR during it).

Even AoE isn't a big deal, as most start out as projectiles, so Shatter Shield protects you from them. The problem is procs like slash, heat, toxin, etc... At high levels you'll take enough chip damage that you'll eventually need to heal with something like Magus Elevate.

2 hours ago, Badniss said:

since I don't have Mesa's Waltz (hate doing the PvP mission

You can get it from normal syndicates, like I know Steel Meridian has it (or trade for it).

1 hour ago, Badniss said:

I'm a huge fan of self replenishing for sustain.

Just be careful with Gloom builds. If enemies aren't a high enough level to do good damage, or if allies are CCing/killing them quick, then you'll quickly run out of energy.

[Badniss]

13 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Unless you're doing Cap level runs, Mesa almost don't need to shield gate.

Shatter Shield can easily give you 95% Damage reduction from ranged attacks with just Intensify on your build. If you want to tank a bit more, you can use Adaptation and Arcane Guardian (as other have already said). This can give you up to 99.885% of damage reduction (95% from Shatter Shield, 90% from max stack Adaptation and 76.9% from Mesa's base Armor+ Maxed Arcane Guardian buff - it's 77.35% if you're using Mesa Prime) and a minimum of 96.25% damage reduction (95% from Shatter Shield and 25% from Mesa's base armor - it's 29.4% if you're using Mesa Prime).

To protect you from Melee, Shooting Gallery is very useful, as it will stagger the enemy for a couple of seconds, letting you enough time to kill it or to avoid it.

If you want more survivability, improve Shatter Shield's duration, energy cost and max damage reduction.

You'll need to move a bit, to prevent being hit from any AoE attack, but the essential is to kill enemies with Peacemaker while protected by Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery.

Projectiles and ranged attacks won't be a problem. Only melee and AoE, but you have everything you need to avoid it.

And, most important, Mesa is one of these frames that needs energy to survie, as her "tankinees" comes from her abilities. So, you will need a source of energy : Arcane Energize, Zenurik, Archon Shard, Dethcube with Energy Generator Mod, Energy Restore... and many other ways.

One great thing is to infuse Grendel's Nourish : it's perfect for Mesa, increasing Energy gains and increasing Peacemaker damage.

Interesting! For Grendel's Nourish ability do you think it would be better or similar to infusing for Gloom,  or Dispensary?

[Badniss]

15 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

 

Yup

mine is based on regenerating health faster than it can be depleted. No shields.

Helminth infuse Gloom, for healing

then build for high armor and health, plus primed flow and quick thinking ( so my energy pool acts as even more health)

and most importantly, Hunter Adrenaline. -so that taking health damage regens my energy.

 

I basically stay in Peacemaker forever,

with my shields down and enemies damaging my health, that damage converts to Energy, which powers Peacemaker

while dealing damage back to enemies regens my health, so I stay alive

a big circle

I try to keep one tanky enemy (like a disco sentient) alive, so that my shields reliably stay down and I stay in the loop

 

-a note on DPS, with myself intentionally taking constant damage, Arcane Avenger is a good choice here

also equip Arcane Velocity, it makes your pistols shoot faster after critical hits; very important for Peacemaker/Regulators dps.

 

That's amazing! That's exactly the way I like to try and build! I've GOT to try and get this build working, I'm a huge fan of self replenishing for sustain. One of the greatest things I like about something like my Vauban Prime with spectrorage to keep replenishing energy that fuels vortex for pulling into the spectrorage that drops energy to fuel more vortex etc..

[Badniss]

17 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

I mean really the key is to just slaughter everything and keep Shatter Shield active 100% of the time. I personally use these builds...

• Mesa (use operator arcanes to occasionally heal)
• Regulators + Amalgam Body Count + Crit archon shards

You can drop Arcane Velocity for Guardian if you think you need more tank. (Also for the damage part, Mesa's fire rate I believe is frame rate dependent. So if your hardware sucks, your Mesa will underperform.)

--------------------------------

People also like these builds...

• Helminth on Pillage instead, and try dropping Vitality for Adaptation.
• Gloom, and drop some of your energy economy upgrades for Hunter Adrenaline instead.

And enough hit points with the build that shatter shield will "mostly" help with the survivability? I say "mostly" since I know I can't expect protection from stuff like AoE and melee attacks :D I try to keep that shatter shield up as much as possible currently, but am still trying to remember to keep an eye on energy levels since I don't have Mesa's Waltz (hate doing the PvP mission to try and get rep for that one). But I do see the benefit of being able to move even slowed so that we can keep getting energy orbs.

[Badniss]

17 hours ago, L3512 said:

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Muzzle_Flash

Woah! That will help a LOT! 

[AegidiusF]

Le 10/01/2023 à 06:28, Badniss a dit :

I've read through some builds on overframe.gg, watched four or five youtube videos, and browsed through the forums here a few pages all in an effort to find Mesa builds that aren't shield gate builds. So far not really much luck unfortunately. Anyone have a direction they can point me toward to find build advice that does not use this technique? I enjoy playing the frame from time to time, but I'm either so far off of the damage number I see in these videos or I've got a bit of increased survivability with shield, health and armor mods but can't seem to find a good middle ground.

Unless you're doing Cap level runs, Mesa almost doesn't need to shield gate.

Shatter Shield can easily give you 95% Damage reduction from ranged attacks with just Intensify on your build. If you want to tank a bit more, you can use Adaptation and Arcane Guardian (as other have already said). This can give you up to 99.885% of damage reduction (95% from Shatter Shield, 90% from max stack Adaptation and 76.9% from Mesa's base Armor+ Maxed Arcane Guardian buff - it's 77.35% if you're using Mesa Prime) and a minimum of 96.25% damage reduction (95% from Shatter Shield and 25% from Mesa's base armor - it's 29.4% if you're using Mesa Prime).

To protect you from Melee, Shooting Gallery is very useful, as it will stagger the enemy for a couple of seconds, letting you enough time to kill it or to avoid it.

If you want more survivability, improve Shatter Shield's duration, energy cost and max damage reduction.

You'll need to move a bit, to prevent being hit from any AoE attack, but the essential is to kill enemies with Peacemaker while protected by Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery.

Projectiles and ranged attacks won't be a problem. Only melee and AoE, but you have everything you need to avoid it.

And, most important, Mesa is one of these frames that needs energy to survie, as her "tankinees" comes from her abilities. So, you will need a source of energy : Arcane Energize, Zenurik, Archon Shard, Dethcube with Energy Generator Mod, Energy Restore... and many other ways.

One great thing is to infuse Grendel's Nourish : it's perfect for Mesa, increasing Energy gains and increasing Peacemaker damage.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

2 hours ago, Badniss said:

I've read through some builds on overframe.gg, watched four or five youtube videos, and browsed through the forums here a few pages all in an effort to find Mesa builds that aren't shield gate builds

 

Yup

mine is based on regenerating health faster than it can be depleted. No shields.

Helminth infuse Gloom, for healing

then build for high armor and health, plus primed flow and quick thinking ( so my energy pool acts as even more health)

and most importantly, Hunter Adrenaline. -so that taking health damage regens my energy.

 

I basically stay in Peacemaker forever,

with my shields down and enemies damaging my health, that damage converts to Energy, which powers Peacemaker

while dealing damage back to enemies regens my health, so I stay alive

a big circle

I try to keep one tanky enemy (like a disco sentient) alive, so that my shields reliably stay down and I stay in the loop

 

-a note on DPS, with myself intentionally taking constant damage, Arcane Avenger is a good choice here

also equip Arcane Velocity, it makes your pistols shoot faster after critical hits; very important for Peacemaker/Regulators dps.

 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Uh well sort of depends. Like what or where are you specifically struggling etc. The best advice usually targets a specific want or need. As for general advice though? Well generally speaking, by default, unless you are playing as Nidus or Inaros, all people take advantage of shield gating. Its what will prevent you from being potentially one shot from most enemies, with a few exceptions. You don't have to be conscious or actively attempting this for this effect to be in action. Usually when people specify shield gating techniques, they just mean, taking conscious advantage of this and building to best take advantage, either via combinations of reduced shields so faster shield refill, techniques that fill shields faster, so on. I personally don't focus on shield gating myself, but I am mobile and evasive with Warframes as a play style so routinely benefit, because my reflexes and game sense is superior to the games AI. 

In harder difficulties, often extra health, and especially shields, won't matter as much to survivability, as say powers, especially any that give damage resistance. A great way for Mesa to boost survivability, is through Shatter Shield and Shooting Gallery (plus to some extent just killing enemies with her 4 before they can harm you). So ensuring you have sufficient duration to keep your 2 and 3 up is good. One gives Damage Reduction, the other will give a soft CC to enemies. 

Likewise Adaptation and Rolling Guard can give bigger benefits in harder content, especially in combination with your abilities. 

Helminth is popular for Mesa too, since many find her 1 to be underwhelming, so replacing it either with Pillage or Gloom. 

Good luck. 

[L3512]

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Muzzle_Flash

[KitMeHarder]

I mean really the key is to just slaughter everything and keep Shatter Shield active 100% of the time. I personally use these builds...

• Mesa (use operator arcanes to occasionally heal)
• Regulators + Amalgam Body Count + Crit archon shards

You can drop Arcane Velocity for Guardian if you think you need more tank. (Also for the damage part, Mesa's fire rate I believe is frame rate dependent. So if your hardware sucks, your Mesa will underperform.)

--------------------------------

People also like these builds...

• Helminth on Pillage instead, and try dropping Vitality for Adaptation.
• Gloom, and drop some of your energy economy upgrades for Hunter Adrenaline instead.