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Pet/Companion survivability in "high level" content (A short essay)


Kaiga

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Companions for warframes were introduced around a decade ago with the introduction of sentinels in update 7.0. The following year, kubrows were added, beginning an expansion of the available pets that would continue to receive updates, mods, and new companions until the modern day.

Over the years as power crept up and enemy damage increased, our weapons and mods also did- but companions and their survivability did not. The sweeper weapon for the carrier sentinel, for example, has remained unchanged for about ten years, and despite mods like primed regen, the parazon finisher hard reset, link sets, and pet gimmicks that involve coming back to life, none of this means anything if they're immediately killed again, with only seconds of usable uptime.

Archon hunts and the steel path have thrown this into contrast. DE has added modes with dangerous burst damage enemies, that starts out at a level that kills even the most survival modded companions quickly. High level, dedicated tenno can handle these just fine, but to most players (judging by the mastery rank breakdowns via pablo's stats last year) these things are still a challenge.

But even for those high level tenno, the one thing they can't do is keep their pets alive. Primed regen is blown through in a few minutes of fighting. Djin and vulvaphyla precepts are constantly on downtime. The state of pets in 2023's "endgame" content is a meme.
This hasn't been a new thing. People have been suggesting pet reworks for years, but DE hasn't listened- and this is the result.

AI for terrain-restricted companions/summons/etc. hasn't been updated in years either, and is so much of a meme that it deserves it's own thread, so we're not going to talk about it here.

So what is the solution? Well several have been suggested over the years

Simply more power:
-Mods/Precept gimmicks that actually scale to enemy level. This is very simple, and more than a few warframes could benefit from this too.
-Primed/stronger mods. Again, very simple. Sourced from high level content should be the tools to play that high level content. Yet companions only have mods from 2014.

Enemies not targeting companions:
-Aggro reducing mods/abilities. Things that let warframes shoulder more of the aggro burden. Seems sensible, but pets are often killed by AoE damage or death beam abilities that ignore this.
-Companions not taking damage until their owner is sufficiently weak. Might not work with all builds, but a unique idea.


Personally, i'm a fan of introducing more revival and subsequent temporary invuln-focused ability mods, in addition to scaling stats up to modern content. Some pets already have this, but a system that lets players be punished with companion death for standing around and getting shot, while still not losing the utility of a companion that is constantly in a death state in high level content seems to me to be the balance that good game design calls for, but that's just me.


Fortunately, most of the star chart content in this game is easy enough for most people to flatten with the power we have, and not worry about any of this.
But then the steel path was introduced. And then archon hunts.

If the direction of the game is going to shift to content that makes 2014-era kit unusable, well, we should probably do something about that yeah?

What do you think?

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or they could just make companions and pets invincible. 

45 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

AI for terrain-restricted companions/summons/etc. hasn't been updated in years either, and is so much of a meme that it deserves it's own thread, so we're not going to talk about it here.

warframe AI has always been dumb as hell. you can see this by being somewhere higher than an acolyte. it doesnt jump, it'll teleport you to its position. it's been years and acolytes still cant do something as simple as jumping.

47 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

If the direction of the game is going to shift to content that makes 2014-era kit unusable

most content havent been updated in years. DE focuses on "creating new stuff to attract new players", then they fix that stuff for a month or so and forget about it forever.

remember deimos? me neither. 

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1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

What do you think?

My link shields Kubrow went down 3 times in a minute against the Sargas Ruk sortie today with me playing as a Hildryn.  Pump a pet survivability rework right into my veins.

 

There's nothing fun about standing over a dead pet and dripping green gas from your palm.  I'm tired of reviving pets.  They don't do any damage.  Just make them invincible, please.

 

bUt My VeRgLaS dJiNn AbSoLuTeLy ShReDs StEeL pAtH...

 

If an unkillable Verglas spamming sentinel is OP, then nerf Verglas.

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Yes please.

I would be totally into seeing them get some real attention.

Pets 3.0 was promised so long ago. They have abandoned or put aside other projects like Modular Archwing that don't really have a terrible effect if they don't go through, but pets are a serious part of the core of the game and need an overhaul ^^;

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Wukong has 10% used and gets the nerf hammer. meanwhile, Panzer is considered the only viable option for higher level content and everything is fine. 

I just want 100% uptime on enemy/loot radar and loot pick up radius. Pretty basic QoL stuff that would benefit everyone. 

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6 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

In before someone inevitably pops in with the very helpful 'well if you cater to your companions and stuff them full of survivability they can sometimes survive on steel path so it's fine.' 🙄

🏽🤓 uhm ackchualy i did sp earth capture and my pet lived so this is just nonsense 

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A simple solution would be to make Hard Reset an actual hard reset, so sentinels can always have regen up, and add a mod for companions that redirects damage to you, something like a rank 10 mod that says "99% damage redirection, 55% damage taken reduction". These I think give sufficient survivability options, while still making their survivability meaningful.

These might not be "good enough", but I think the solutions that are along the lines of "make every companion and sentinel like vulpaphylas" or any other sort of solutions that make their survivability a non-factor are being unreasonable. By unreasonable I don't mean "Your solution is dumb and you're dumb", I mean more along the lines of what DE and those in it are willing to actually implement. Like yeah, making every companion and sentinel invincible wouldn't be game breaking, it's just that there is no universe where DE straight up does that.

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9 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

My link shields Kubrow went down 3 times in a minute against the Sargas Ruk sortie today with me playing as a Hildryn.  Pump a pet survivability rework right into my vein

Are you using adaptation? Cause pets do not have that and shield is armorless so 1 for 1 damage point. Useless for pets. 

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1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

Are you using adaptation? Cause pets do not have that and shield is armorless so 1 for 1 damage point. Useless for pets. 

I’m aware. There’s no adaptation mod for pets though, which proves the OP’s point. Our survivability methods have kept up with power creep, to a certain extent. Pets’ survivability mods have not. 

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Way I see it, Pets need a complete overhaul in.... well, everything. Abilities, AI, Mods, Sustain, Survival, you name it. And don't get me started on the stupid stunlock they get under too.

I'd love to use more pets, I WANT to use more pets. But I can't till they at least sort out how to better sustain them.. 

I don't agree however with just making them invincible, it's a bad fix that doesn't really tackle the rest of their problems, but I can understand why people ask for it. I just think Pets deserve more. 

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1 hour ago, Zakkhar said:

There is armor though. And armor link mods.

Again, I am aware.  I’ve got thousands of hours in this game.  I have zero difficulty keeping my frames alive.  Pets are a different matter.
 

All the link mods in the world won’t keep your pet alive on Steel Path or normal star chart Jupiter if it decides to crouch in a fire jet. 

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7 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

All the link mods in the world won’t keep your pet alive on Steel Path or normal star chart Jupiter if it decides to crouch in a fire jet. 

Ofc they wont because the AI is too dumb, but it will give you the time to heal it with pack leader. Unlike shields that are basically paper. Even the base hound armor of 100 gives already 25% damage reduction. Also there is shield gate mechanics. Why would you want big shield on a pet is beyond me.

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13 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

Wukong has 10% used and gets the nerf hammer. meanwhile, Panzer is considered the only viable option for higher level content and everything is fine. 

I just want 100% uptime on enemy/loot radar and loot pick up radius. Pretty basic QoL stuff that would benefit everyone. 

I agree pets need a rework but want to clear up this notion that only vulphy is viable because that's simply not true. 

The issue is only Vulphy, Kavats, and Dogs being viable with health tank frames and robots not being viable at all because they can't use link mods. 

My dogs and cats survive just fine when I'm grendel because the pet then has 6,000 health for example.

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40 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

I agree pets need a rework but want to clear up this notion that only vulphy is viable because that's simply not true. 

The issue is only Vulphy, Kavats, and Dogs being viable with health tank frames and robots not being viable at all because they can't use link mods. 

My dogs and cats survive just fine when I'm grendel because the pet then has 6,000 health for example.

thing with link mods is that you're then forced to use a frame with good base armor/hp or it just won't help at all. you're not going to be stacking armor or health on mag for example.

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6 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

thing with link mods is that you're then forced to use a frame with good base armor/hp or it just won't help at all.

It will help a lot. It is not meant to make the pet invincible, only not 1shotable. With unranked pack leader you can fully heal it in split second.

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22 minutes ago, Zakkhar said:

It will help a lot. It is not meant to make the pet invincible, only not 1shotable. With unranked pack leader you can fully heal it in split second.

then why make link mods in the first place lol just slap on the non-link mods if it was that easy

pet is still 1 shottable btw if your frame doesn't have great base hp & armor

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9 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

thing with link mods is that you're then forced to use a frame with good base armor/hp or it just won't help at all. you're not going to be stacking armor or health on mag for example.

Mag is a death sentence for pets. If you have enemy bullets in your bubble when it detonates no link mods or pack leader is going save it from that burst damage. 

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