Warframe Powers And Mechanics Post U14

[KARMA2605]

First of all, awesome work PsycloneM. By playing too much Trinity, I forgot there are pure elemental abilities which can help with new damage calculations reverse engineering.

 

Now, I did some tests with Snipertron Vandal and it looks like puncture gets no benefit against armor other than reducing reductions. I hoped that when I calculate expected damage by calculating each part separately and then add it up, there will be some gap between my numbers and those observed. But there is nothing. Impact + Puncture with reduced reduction + Slash times flesh bonus equals exactly damage pop ups seen ingame. Probably rounding error against butcher (127 calc, 126 seen) but against trooper and lancer where there should be something evident (SV is 6.3, 112.5, 6.3 so almost pure puncture against 100-150 armor) but it's equal. Maybe this much armor is too little but I don't know scaling equations (or how much they changed) so can't test it.

 

When I was first reading DE Steve's updated post on Armor Scaling in D2.0 in the Design Council, he including a couple graphs that led me to believe that the way armor scaling worked now we would see more benefit from puncture over slashing the higher armor got.  This seems to be the case in the "eyeball" test.

 

Simply answer, against low level Grineer slash heavy weapons will work out just fine and puncture weapons won't notice much or any improvement over slash.  By high levels of Grineer, that is reversed.  Also keep in mind even low level Grineer heavies have a metric sh*t tonne of armor, so puncture still worth it there.

[PsycloneM]

Thanks, everyone. There are still a few things that need to be done, but I'll have to save that for another time.

 

Now, I did some tests with Snipertron Vandal and it looks like puncture gets no benefit against armor other than reducing reductions. I hoped that when I calculate expected damage by calculating each part separately and then add it up, there will be some gap between my numbers and those observed. But there is nothing. Impact + Puncture with reduced reduction + Slash times flesh bonus equals exactly damage pop ups seen ingame. Probably rounding error against butcher (127 calc, 126 seen) but against trooper and lancer where there should be something evident (SV is 6.3, 112.5, 6.3 so almost pure puncture against 100-150 armor) but it's equal. Maybe this much armor is too little but I don't know scaling equations (or how much they changed) so can't test it.

 

As KARMA2605 said, the benefits of puncture damage will outweigh that of slash damage as armor increases.

 

I'm glad you brought this up. I'll be making a new thread in the appropriate section that summarizes the testing I've done with various weapons. There seems to be inconsistency regarding how base damage and elemental damage is calculated, specifically damage types that affect armor. Some weapons will follow the equations reasonably well (which seems to be the case of Snipertron Vandal). Other weapons seem to suggest that different damage modifiers are being used, I'm not entirely sure.

 

Also, as we've seen with Frost's cold damage, it's entirely possible to reduce your weapon damage to "1" if you use cold mods against very high-armored enemies.

 

If you want to keep testing the Snipertron Vandal on higher-armored enemies, you could estimate an enemy's damage reduction by using a high-damage power on it, record the number, and compare it to what you would get if the enemy had zero armor. You'll be introducing error into the calculations this way, but it will at least give you an idea whether the weapon is deviating from expected damage values.

[Andoryuu]

When I said I forgot there are abilities, it seems that I immediately forgot it again. :)

 

I took my Ember with Fireball which should do 700 damage to Grineers (and it's correct for level 1 armor calculations) and got some numbers against some levels between 1-12. And all armor reductions match my earlier armor approximations with SV.

 

So it seems there is no AP damage bonus for puncture and reduction of reductions is the only thing it has.

[CitizenV]

Vauban

 

Tesla deals 150 electrical damage per charge (1.5x damage to robotics, 0.75x damage to Infested), affected by power strength. Just like the other elemental frames' damaging powers, Tesla no longer guarantees a stun. Each shock has a small chance of stunning, as indicated by the lightning symbol next to the damage number. The wiki claims that a grenade will expire either after 40 seconds, or after it runs out of charges. The former is not entirely accurate. Yes, a grenade that is dormant and deals no damage to anyone will disappear after 40 seconds. However, what seems to be happening is that each time a grenade uses a charge, roughly 3 seconds are added to its lifetime. It's possible to have grenades last over a minute as long as they are active, and have not used all of their charges. With Continuity and Constitution (15 charges per grenade), I've had grenades last as long as ~80 seconds.

That is interesting. When I datamined the mechanics, it was fairly clear they had a time limit of 40 seconds and didn't see any that using a charge adds duration. I wonder why that is happening, or what I missed.

(I also tested it too when I first datamined it, but didn't get to test it thoroughly because I didn't have much time.)

 

Also, I'm not sure which Warframes you haven't got to yet, but this is my spreadsheet with datamined info for their abilities (damage type and procs):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag68V91fKX4odGNuUUhJeF9ZWm1QZlFZY1hyRDdzc3c&usp=sharing#gid=0

 

Hopefully that will help if you continue to test and confirm the mechanics/stats.

Edited December 3, 2013 by CitizenV

[PsycloneM]

When I said I forgot there are abilities, it seems that I immediately forgot it again. :)

 

I took my Ember with Fireball which should do 700 damage to Grineers (and it's correct for level 1 armor calculations) and got some numbers against some levels between 1-12. And all armor reductions match my earlier armor approximations with SV.

 

So it seems there is no AP damage bonus for puncture and reduction of reductions is the only thing it has.

 

Yeah, that seems to be the case. I've made a new thread that highlights out the issues with cold damage, and the inconsistencies of other armor-affecting damage types (whether from powers or weapons). If you have some weapon tests you'd like to share, don't hesitate to post.

 

That is interesting. When I datamined the mechanics, it was fairly clear they had a time limit of 40 seconds and didn't see any that using a charge adds duration. I wonder why that is happening, or what I missed.

(I also tested it too when I first datamined it, but didn't get to test it thoroughly because I didn't have much time.)

 

Also, I'm not sure which Warframes you haven't got to yet, but this is my spreadsheet with datamined info for their abilities (damage type and procs):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag68V91fKX4odGNuUUhJeF9ZWm1QZlFZY1hyRDdzc3c&usp=sharing#gid=0

 

Hopefully that will help if you continue to test and confirm the mechanics/stats.

 

I'm glad you're here. My method of testing has been in-game observation, so it would be nice to see if the datamined mechanics match what I've shared. I spent a few good evenings during the break, and now I have all of the warframes covered (with the exception of Bullet Attractor's and Link's damage types). 

 

Your information matches mine. The only differences are Radial Javelin, Hysteria, Vortex, Overheat, and Rhino Stomp's damage types. I'm certain that Radial Javelin and Hysteria deal a combination of impact, puncture, and slash damage. Overheat, Vortex, and Rhino Stomp appear to deal heat, magnetic, and blast damage respectively. Thanks for sharing this.

 

Regarding Tesla, go ahead and test it out whenever you have the chance. Perhaps it's not the case that a charge will add time; rather, it pauses the grenade's time limit until the ~3 second cooldown has expired. I'm just speculating here; it's interesting to see what you find out, nevertheless. Thanks again.

Edited December 3, 2013 by PsycloneM

[CitizenV]

I'm not sure about the others (will go back and check), but Hysteria does deal a combination of those damage types according to datamining. When I made the spreadsheet, I had not been able to determine its damage and damage type, but later on I figured it out (the stats you see on the wiki now).

[Antonie_Van_Leeuwenhoek]

Is there any way to datamine the current armor calculation? I had a feeling that it had not been improved with this Damage 2.0. Seeing Valkyr is as weak as nova is really nerve-wrecking.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Antonie_Van_Leeuwenhoek

[Kyte]

>as weak as nova

Wuh?

[notionphil]

...

 

Just chiming in to the chorus of thanks. Not sure what inspired you to do all of this research, but you are doing a great service to the WF community.

 

Thanks PsycloneM,

 

+999

[notionphil]

...

 

And thank you to CitizenV as well, without which this research would have been nearly impossible.

 

+999

[PsycloneM]

You're very welcome. 

 

There are several things that inspired me to make this thread: for one, my curiosity. After hearing Scott in one the past few livestreams mention that powers would be affected by Damage 2.0, I wanted to determine the extent of his statement.

 

I was inspired by the fact that I wouldn't be the only one who desired this information, and figured it would be nice to have a single thread where that information can be shared and reviewed-- a thread to help us all transition from Damage 1.0 to 2.0.

 

My last bit of inspiration came from my desire to have this information available in the UI. When new warframes are created, or when current warframes undergo tweaks/reworks, it would be very convenient to allow the player to see power stats in the game. As this information is not available with U11 (or in the patch notes), I had to figure out what had changed. Luckily I had the time over the break.

[PokieFishMan]

Thank you, good sir.

[HomeyCDawg]

Bookmarked for future reference. You're doing good work here sir.

 

Perhaps I could suggest making links in the OP to each frame's analysis for easy navigation.

[PsycloneM]

Hey, no problem.

 

Perhaps I could suggest making links in the OP to each frame's analysis for easy navigation.

 

Nice suggestion. Done.

[PsycloneM]

I've added the following information:

 

• Loki's Decoy and Saryn's Molt will cause the player's screen to shake if they're struck by a light Infested unit.

   

• Ash's Smoke Screen and Loki's Invisibility do not consistently provide the 4x damage multiplier to melee attacks when playing as a client.

   

• Saryn's Miasma does not deal an extra tick of damage as it did prior to U11 if its duration exceeds an integer value. This might apply to Venom, as well.

Edited December 12, 2013 by PsycloneM

[CitizenV]

Ash's Smoke Screen and Loki's Invisibility do not consistently provide the 4x damage multiplier to melee attacks when playing as a client.

Do they happen to provide a 2x damage multiplier (on charge attacks)? I wonder if stealth multipliers are bugged and applied twice if you're a host. When datamined, they were still the same as pre-U11 (1.5x for normal, 2x for charge and finisher, 1x for rest). Of course, I also experienced the increased damage (~4x) after U11 which confused me.

Edited December 11, 2013 by CitizenV

[PsycloneM]

Do they happen to provide a 2x damage multiplier (on charge attacks)? I wonder if stealth multipliers are bugged and applied twice if you're a host. When datamined, they were still the same as pre-U11 (1.5x for normal, 2x for charge and finisher, 1x for rest). Of course, I also experienced the increased damage (~4x) after U11 which confused me.

 

From what I've experienced all melee attacks receive the 4x multiplier.

[rhoenix]

PsycloneM, thank you for all your hard work and testing to bring this information to light.

My one question is this - Banshee's Sonar allows doing 500% damage to enemy weak points, and Rhino's Roar grants allies 50% bonus damage for a short time. Is it known how these two abilities stack in terms of causing damage to an enemy?

Edited December 11, 2013 by rhoenix

[PsycloneM]

Hey, no problem.

 

I'm pretty sure the damage bonuses from Sonar and Roar stack multiplicatively. Roar will increase your standard damage output by 1.5x. If you shoot a highlighted weak spot, the damage dealt at that spot is increased by 5x. So effectively, you'll be dealing 7.5x standard damage if you shoot a weak spot with Roar in effect. This damage is further increased if the weak spot happens to be a special body part, or if your weapon happens to crit (not to mention power strength mods, and powers like Molecular Prime).

Edited December 11, 2013 by PsycloneM

[rhoenix]

Hey, no problem.

 

I'm pretty sure the damage bonuses from Sonar and Roar stack multiplicatively. Roar will increase your standard damage output by 1.5x. If you shoot a highlighted weak spot, the damage dealt at that spot is increased by 5x. So effectively, you'll be dealing 7.5x standard damage if you shoot a weak spot with Roar in effect. This damage is further increased if the weak spot happens to be a special body part, or if your weapon happens to crit (not to mention power strength mods, and powers like Molecular Prime).

Thank you for that information - I haven't been able to test that combination personally yet.

[PsycloneM]

You're welcome. The information I gave you is second-hand (I test solo), but I don't see why Roar would not apply its damage bonus to your weapon if you shot a glowing weak spot from Sonar. I'm curious to know if they interact as expected. I recall some users achieving insane damage numbers during the Vectis headshot challenge with Sonar and Molecular Prime, so it should apply to Roar as well.

 

Now that U11.3 is upon us, the http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0'>resistance table has completely changed. Cold damage's previous issue seems to have been addressed (so hopefully no more "1"s from Frost's Avalanche on Ceres), while heat (all of Ember) and magnetic damage (essentially most of Mag's abilities and Nyx's Absorb) were dealt a blow. I'll be looking into this and making changes here as I go along.

 

EDIT: I added new information to Frost's post:

 

 

• Freeze appears to have a faster projectile speed, and its effect wears off when the target loses 50% of its max health.

   

• Ice Wave appears to follow terrain.

Edited January 9, 2014 by PsycloneM

[Tulzscha]

Excellent thread PsycloneM, the amount of research you've put into this is much appreciated.

 

It sucks that Ember lost her niche as an Infested destroyer, but nice to see that Frost can do decent damage now. Time to play my janky Ice Wave build again. :D

[Kyte]

Apparently, Fireball, Shuriken, Shock and possibly other 1 powers no longer cancel movement on cast.

[LukeAura]

Now that U11.3 is upon us, the resistance table has completely changed. Cold damage's previous issue seems to have been addressed (so hopefully no more "1"s from Frost's Avalanche on Ceres), while heat (all of Ember) and magnetic damage (essentially most of Mag's abilities and Nyx's Absorb) were dealt a blow. I'll be looking into this and making changes here as I go along.

That resistance table...

That can't possibly right can it? 

Slash must still have a 50% bonus against something. That's the only way it'll be balanced with impact and puncture. 

And fire now only is effective against unarmoured health so, crewman after their shields go down? 

Edit; Okay, just read Hotfix 11.3.1, and the table makes even less sense now. Grineer are more weak to corrosive and yet, their health resists it? Something seems off with them to me but I'll let people who are better at testing that make sure it's accurate.

Edited December 12, 2013 by LukeAura

[Kyte]

The damage table hasn't been updated for hotfix 11.3.1. I went to sleep before it'd gone live.