Warframe Powers And Mechanics Post U14

[SlyBoots]

jeez, this is incredible, thank you so much.

[Antonie_Van_Leeuwenhoek]

The new resistance table just made the corpus toughest enemy now... Everything just feel so off.

[Kyte]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/147063-dec-122013-ps4-u113ugh/#entry1742084

[PsycloneM]

No problem, guys.

 

CHANGES:

• Simplification of damage table - bonuses reduced to 3 per type. Resistances reduced to 2 per type. Resistances decreased.
• Armour resistances don’t make enemies entirely immune to damage.

 

This is good news. I'll have to see how this is applied in the damage calculation.

[esapto]

i think ash's bladestorm damage has changed on one of the recent updates.

i just did a mission with level 29 grineer and the damage with focus was: around 600 vs a trooper, over 4000 vs a flameblade and if i remember correctly around 200 vs napalm.

[LukeAura]

i think ash's bladestorm damage has changed on one of the recent updates.

i just did a mission with level 29 grineer and the damage with focus was: around 600 vs a trooper, over 4000 vs a flameblade and if i remember correctly around 200 vs napalm.

Slash damage is further reduced by armor now. 

So the massive change you're seeing is relative to the differences in their armor. 

 

Edited December 13, 2013 by LukeAura

[esapto]

Slash damage is further reduced by armor now. 

So the massive change you're seeing is relative to the differences in their armor. 

 

 

it's not slash damage:

 

 

 

Blade Storm still deals 2000 damage per target, affected by power strength. Thanks to CitizenV's testing, I can confirm that Blade Storm deals finisher damage (unaffected by armor, and does not appear to be affected by enemy damage modifiers). It also seems as though you are no longer immune to damage or knockdown. I was once knocked out of the animation by an ancient; I got back on my feet, and the animation resumed. I need to confirm if this has changed with any of the latest hotfixes.

[LukeAura]

Well it seems to be being affected like Slash damage so he should probably check again. 

[PsycloneM]

A few things that I've noticed:

Warframes with projectile powers can use them while on the move, whether you're running towards or away from the target, sliding, wall running, etc. Of the warframes I've checked, this includes Ash, Ember, Frost, Nova, Nyx, and Volt. This seems to be a WIP, as each warframe shares the same casting animation.

Regarding Ash's Blade Storm, it now appears to be affected by armor (good catch esapto). However, it does not have the properties of slash damage. With Focus equipped, Corpus crewmen take the full 2600 damage (with no apparent modifiers to flesh), while moas take 3x as much. Infested also receive the full 2600 damage. Grineer appear to take 2x damage, which is then reduced by armor. For instance, I've observed a level 1 butcher, lancer, and trooper receive 5114, 3900, and 3466 damage from Blade Storm, respectively.

2600 x 2 x ( 1 - 0.0164 ) = 5114

2600 x 2 x ( 1 - 0.2500 ) = 3900

2600 x 2 x ( 1 - 0.3333 ) = 3466

Perhaps what I've described are the new properties of finisher damage with U11.3.2. CitizenV, if you could look into this when you have the time I'd appreciate it.

U11.3.2's big change affects the way armor damage modifiers interact with the damage calculation. Modifiers on the armor column no longer affect the enemy's damage reduction-- only the input damage. For instance, slash damage has a -15% modifier to armor and +25% to flesh. Before, this would be calculated as follows:

( damage ) x 1.25 x [ 1 - ( damage reduction ) x 1.15 ] = final damage

Now, it's calculated this way:

( damage ) x 1.25 x 0.85 x [ 1 - ( damage reduction ) ] = final damage.

While this prevents damage types with negative modifiers from being completely neutralized beyond a specific armor value, damage types with positive modifiers will not scale as well as they used to against high-armor enemies.

As Damage 2.0 is constantly changing, I'm going to refrain from updating my older posts until things settle down. In the meantime, I'll share new information here.

Edited December 13, 2013 by PsycloneM

[KARMA2605]

U11.3.2's big change affects the way armor damage modifiers interact with the damage calculation. Modifiers on the armor column no longer affect the enemy's damage reduction-- only the input damage. For instance, slash damage has a -15% modifier to armor and +25% to flesh. Before, this would be calculated as follows:

( damage ) x 1.25 x [ 1 - ( damage reduction ) x 1.15 ] = final damage

Now, it's calculated this way:

( damage ) x 1.25 x 0.85 x [ 1 - ( damage reduction ) ] = final damage.

 

 

How sure are you about this math?

 

Because if that calculation is right, then we are back to having high levels of armor practically wash down any damage type - even the ones meant to be good.

 

I'll use your two formulas and show you what I mean (damage reduction number based off of an Armor rating of 1000):

 

Saryn's Miasma Old = ( 1000 ) x 1.5 [ 1 - ( 0.78 ) * 0.75 ] = 156

 

Saryn's Miasma New = ( 1000 ) x 1.5 x 1.25 x [ 1 - ( 0.78) ] = 103

 

That is assuming that Miasma deals Toxic damage - if it deals Corrosive the numbers change a little bit.  It seems to me the whole reason they would change the formula had to do with the severe resistances to certain elements, but that is gone now.  Now they've gone too far in a different direction - I admit DE did this with the best of intentions but the end result was more middling damage.  The high's aren't really as high but the low's are not nearly so low - was that the thought process do you think?

 

This all assumes the formulae we are using are correct of course.

Edited December 13, 2013 by KARMA2605

[Kyte]

Just checked Bladestorm, damage is still Finisher, and Finisher damage still has +100% vs armor. It seems to match your prediction.

If I understand this correctly, this now means that, if armor > 0, a damage bonus/penalty is applied to the base damage before armor reduction?

Edited December 13, 2013 by Kyte

[Kyte]

 Assuming your observations are correct, this is the graph of the new damage for 1000 Corrosive damage vs the old equation. Inflection point's at 300 armor.

Red line is current system.

Blue line was original 2.0 system.

Purple line was based on a theoretical model where elemental bonuses affect the armor value.

 

Honestly, no method is ideal. The old method gimped any elements weak to armor, and the current method don't provide nearly enough benefit from bonuses.

 

Here's the Blast chart, to compare:

 

Maybe a two-tiered system, where the formula changes at the 300 armor point or whether the elemental bonus is positive or negative, would be the best solution.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Kyte

[PsycloneM]

Here are some observations paired against expected values using the new damage formula:

 

Shuriken (650 slash damage):

Expected:

 

Observed:

 

Radial Javelin (483.333 impact damage, 483.333 puncture damage, 483.333 slash damage):

Expected:

 

Observed:

 

Rhino Stomp (1040 blast damage):

Expected:

 

Observed:

 

Miasma (325 toxin damage per second):

Expected:

 

Observed:

Edited December 16, 2013 by PsycloneM

[Volt_Cruelerz]

A similar note, it appears that not only can you do those projectile ones while on the move, you can (at least in Shock's case) cast while reloading without interrupting the reload.

[Kyte]

It seems they changed all those powers to use Vauban's throw animation, which doesn't interrupt reload or movement. Powers that use different animations (Pull, for example) still interrupt as usual.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Kyte

[Antonie_Van_Leeuwenhoek]

I would like to report the status of armor as of Update 11.3.2. I JUST played T3 def right now and see my corrosive lanka's damage gradually decrease over the wave. Last 5 wave was hellish. My lanka deals 500-1000 per head-shot. The worst shot was 300. However, when enemies start taking substantial amount of corrosive procs, the damage went up again - to 2000-4000.

So... in my opinion, they broke the armor again...

[Kyte]

Hotfix time!

Tried out Crush on Grineer. That's no modifiers. 1300 Magnetic Damage.

Butcher: 1278

Lancer: 975

Trooper: 866

Checks out.

 

Acrid: 154 Corrosive damage. +75% vs armor.

Gonna try Torid. 100 Toxin damage. +25% vs armor, +50% vs flesh.

Also Shuriken. 650 Slash damage. -15% vs armor, +25% vs flesh..

 

Acrid: 268 to Butcher, 248 to Lancer, 239 to Trooper.

Torid: 235 to Butcher, 190 to Lancer, 173 to Trooper.

Shuriken: 677, 499, 438, respectively.

 

I... can't figure out the formula.

 

E: So someone said it's Final Dmg = Dmg *(1+element bonus)*(1-(Armor*0.25)/(300+Armor*(1 - element bonus)))

It's checking out in two out of three cases (Shuriken and Acrid), but not for torin. I'm not sure WTF.

Gonna try a pure Acrid. Yep, it works. It's Torid that's weird.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Kyte

[esapto]

it seems bladestorm damage is back to how it was, its kind of hard to see damage numbers while teleporting though.

Edit: tested some more vs level >29 grineer and damage was back to 2600, no armor reduction and no 2x multiplier.

Edited December 14, 2013 by esapto

[PsycloneM]

Just here to confirm that with U11.3.3 armor modifiers affect the enemy's armor and health:

 

damage x ( 1 + modifier ) x [ 1 - ( modified damage reduction ) ] = final damage

 

where modified damage reduction = armor x ( 1 - modifier ) / [ armor x ( 1 - modifier ) + 300 ].

 

Shuriken (650 slash damage):

Expected:

 

Observed:

 

Radial Javelin (483.333 impact damage, 483.333 puncture damage, 483.333 slash damage):

Expected:

 

Observed:

 

Rhino Stomp (1040 blast damage):

Expected:

 

Observed:

 

Miasma (325 toxin damage per second):

Expected:

 

Observed:

 

I know there are plenty of people who are still frustrated with the new damage model, but I believe this was a step in the right direction. By affecting damage reduction, any damage type with a negative modifier would inflict minimal damage at a specific armor threshold. We saw this with Frost and his cold damage powers, and we saw this with Banshee, Ember, Nova, and Rhino with U11.3. The downside is that in the case of positive modifiers, lowering damage reduction is more effective against high-armored enemies than lowering armor by the same percentage. This is evident in the graphs Kyte has shared.

 

Perhaps the armor scaling equation needs to be reviewed, along with all of the warframes that were negatively affected by the most recent updates (including powers that deal slash and blast damage).

Edited December 16, 2013 by PsycloneM

[PsycloneM]

EDIT: Removed proposal as it no longer seems necessary. Armor, health, and shields have all been scaled down with U11.5.

Edited December 19, 2013 by PsycloneM

[PsycloneM]

There's quite a lot to go over with U11.5.

 

• Armour/Shield/Health/Damage curves have been modified. We’ve lowered the “bullet sponge” to high level enemies, but they now deal more damage. The armour curve was radically dropped. The health and shields curves dropped slightly as well. However, damage output went up.

 

After a bit of testing, the new armor scaling equation appears to be the following:

 

armor = base armor + base armor x 0.005 x ( current level - base level ) ^ 1.75

 

This needs confirmation by anyone with access to datamining tools.The http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0'>resistance table has expanded, where each faction now has four surface types. I have not checked every resistance, but I can confirm that impact damage deals -25% damage to cloned flesh, slash damage has a -15% modifier to ferrite armor, and puncture damage has a +15% modifier to alloy armor despite what the wiki claims. Here's some information from additional preliminary tests:

 

 

Ember

 

Fireball still does 400 heat damage (affected by power strength), and has a 100% chance to proc. The projectile's travel time appears to be improved. This requires more testing to understand the mechanics of the radial damage component.

 

Accelerant seems to increase heat damage by 2.5x (affected by power strength). It functions as an area stun and debuff, which lasts for a duration. Essentially, any enemy within range will take additional heat damage from what seems to be all sources. I've tested this with Dual Heat Sword's slam attack, Ember's powers, and elemental damage on weapons: all of these heat damage sources inflict amplified damage to debuffed enemies. For instance with Focus equipped, a +90% heat damage mod on your weapon will receive a 3.25x multiplier, increasing the damage to +90% x 3.25 = +292.5%. Here's what that looks like with a Vectis (base damage) against several Grineer:

 

Expected:

 

Observed:

 

I have not tested Fire Blast, so stay tuned.

 

World on Fire still does 400 heat damage per tick (affected by power strength). Again, this needs more testing.

 

 

Saryn

 

With U11.5.3, Venom is now dealing 10 viral damage per second for every spore transmitted. Popping a spore also deals 25 viral damage. Power strength still affects the DoT and burst damage. Now that Venom deals viral damage, it's possible for each damage tick to trigger a debuff that reduces the enemy's health (current and max) by 50% for a duration.

 

Venom also appears to have some odd client behavior. Against shields, I've noticed that the damage inflicted by each spore is multiplied by the number of spores transmitted to an enemy (up to 13 x 6 = 78 damage per second when first cast, and 13 x 4 = 52 damage per second when spores are spread). I can't replicate this behavior when hosting.

 

I have not tested Molt or Contagion.

 

Miasma now deals 237 corrosive damage per second. As the U11.5 patch notes claim that Miasma received a damage increase, I doubt the current damage reduction (250 to 237) was intentional. I need to test if Miasma's base duration has been modified with the update.

 

EDIT: It seems as though Miasma's base damage is actually reduced by power duration mods. Look three posts down for more info.

Edited December 23, 2013 by PsycloneM

[PsycloneM]

I'm continuing to update my previous post as hotfixes are released. Let me know if you guys are observing what I'm observing, especially Venom's client behavior and Miasma's base damage reduction.

 

I still need to test Hysteria's health regeneration, and all of Oberon's powers (as soon as he's built).

Edited December 23, 2013 by PsycloneM

[Kyte]

S#&$ I forgot to post my info here.

 

The new numbers are:

Damage = Base Damage + Base Damage * 0.015 * (Level Difference)^1.55

Health = Base Health + Base Health * 0.015 * (Level Difference)^2

Armor = Base Armor + Base Armor * 0.005 * (Level Difference)^1.75

Shields = Base Shields + Base Shields * 0.0075 * (Level Difference)^2

 

Oberon Smite and Reckoning are 50% impact 50% radiation. Hallowed Ground is pure radiation. I posted the details in the wiki.

Accelerant is also updated in the wiki. It's basically Radial Blind's stun + vulnerability debuff to heat damage (source doesn't matter), up to 2.5x plus power strength.

Fire Blast's only change is a guaranteed immolation effect (that's.when they burst into flames and start flailing around. I don't remember if that comes coupled with heat DoT though.

 

Hysteria now adds a 0.001 (looks like a bug) / 0.02 / 0.04 / 0.05 % lifesteal property to the claws. No Power Strength modifier.

I don't know how exactly this lifesteal property works, but I imagine it turns % of damage inflicted into health. No idea if that's before or after armor reduction.

(It also make me hope we see vampire weapons/mods someday)

 

The Miasma thing looks odd, let me investigate.

Welp so I checked and double checked and even went and diffed the other files to make sure I wasn't comparing with an old folder but everything suggests they integrated the Venom and Molt updates but they still forgot to integrate Miasma jesus christ. This is after I told them they'd forgotten to include Saryn's changes at all.

Yeah it's still doing Toxin damage.

 

Btw, Molt:

Health's 200/300/400/500 (plus Power Strength) and duration remains the same.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Kyte

[PsycloneM]

Nice. Thanks for looking into everything. I'll update the older posts when I have the chance.

 

Regarding Miasma, it definitely seems to deal corrosive damage: it doesn't bypass shields, and deals half damage to Corpus tech shields. Considering the ~237 base damage I mentioned before and +30% power strength, against a level 1 lancer I see 497 damage:

 

237 x 1.3 x 1.75 x [ 1 - 100 x 0.25 / ( 300 + 100 x 0.25 ) ] = 497

 

What confused me is why 237 base damage? I think I've figured out what's going on. In this example, I have Continuity and Constitution equipped for +58% power duration. Without power duration mods, Miasma deals 375 corrosive damage per second. The odd "237" I've been observing seems to be caused by additional power duration decreasing Miasma's base damage: 375 / 1.58 = 237.

 

• Power duration mods currently weaken Miasma's DPS.

Edited December 23, 2013 by PsycloneM

[Kyte]

I have no idea what's going on with Miasma, really. I look and re-look and extract again and everything says that it's doing poison.

 

And looking through, the DoT is total damage (500/650/850/1000 plus power strength) / 4 (unmodified power duration) but then power duration affects the actual DoT duration.

So it should be doing 325 poison damage per second.

325 * 1.25 * (1 - 75 / (300 + 75)) = 325

 

I have no idea what's going on.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Kyte