Valkyr Uber Name Is Actually Highly Offensive On Historical Basis

[FrothingLoins]

I hope you mean treated PREFERENTIALLY COMPARED TO another, because men and women are different.

Biologically.

 

If we're talking Devil's advocate here.

That makes Maternity leave and the concept of gynecologists sexist.

Absolutely.

 

I don't get paternity leave when my wife has OUR child.

[Cursor]

I hope you mean treated PREFERENTIALLY COMPARED TO another, because men and women are different.

Biologically.

 

If we're talking Devil's advocate here.

That makes Maternity leave and the concept of gynecologists sexist.

 

It is not preferential treatment.  In almost ever modern country, women are the minority group, men the majority.  And I really hope you don't say anything about numbers because you know what I mean.  The majority group has deprived the minority group, and feminism is fighting to reverse this.  All people should be treated equally, both socially and under the law.

 

Maternity leave is a socially responsible concession to families.  Women are obviously an integral component, but for single-parent homes or otherwise, the inability to work and make wages on account of a child is damaging to the family, and procreation is a natural human imperative (in that it happens, and must happen for the continuation of the species, not that everyone must do it or should be compelled to do it).  It is not some paid break from work because you got a kid.  You've got it &#!-backwards.  The issue here is that the absence of maternity leave would be an incredibly sexist move because it actively punishes women for something extremely natural, on the level of denying abortions.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Cursor

[HereticKitsune]

Up until very recently, I had never seen any usage of the term hysteria/hysterical to mean "a crazy emotional woman" or anything like that. The meaning has changed. Language evolves. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Hell, the origin of hysteria to me is hysterical because they thought the uterus wandered the body causing problems. Yeah it's sad that sometimes they thought a hysterectomy or the asylum was necessary in extreme cases, but that wasn't sexism so much as having zero idea about biology (at one point it was thought that if men ejaculate often enough while growing up it could stunt their growth because nutrients were diverted to solely make semen). Most of the time though treatment was basically "have more orgasms" which led to a lot of false cases I'm sure. 

 

Yeah that's not what it means now, not how it's used now. Arguing that the context makes your argument when context actually breaks it apart is just kind of hilarious. Things are different now. Is sexism still a problem? Yes. Is the term "hysteria" part of it? Nope, not anymore. If anything it's one of those terms that, if someone actually uses it with the intent to offend, mature people just don't take seriously. I can't take anyone seriously that calls me a f*ggot for not being hetero, because who even does that anymore? It's like, it's so ridiculous to use such a term that way anymore that I just kinda laugh. Same thing with using gay as a derogatory term for homosexuals: anyone that does so is just silly and can be disregarded as foolish (though this is a work in progress). Oh, and then there's the term "$&*&*#(%&." Used to be fine, then became an insult, now no one gives a damn because anyone who actually uses it as a derogatory term relating to mental disability isn't worth getting offended over.

 

I had more to say but I'm starting to get a headache and lose my coherency so idk this post is forever incomplete.

 

tl;dr if hysteria as Valkyr's ult offends you you're an idiot because hysteria isn't linked to gender anymore so get over it.

[Ventura_Highway]

Doesn't bother me.

Warner Bros got away with punning with

the name for a cartoon of theirs, DE can do what they want.

For what it matters, I am of the belief that gender shouldn't

be a determining factor in one's existence, but come on, this

is just nitpicking, I feel.

[BlueThingy]

tl;dr if hysteria as Valkyr's ult offends you you're an idiot because hysteria isn't linked to gender anymore so get over it.

 

Quoting that part because it sums up many of the arguments here.

 

It's an old call-sign.  A marker.  A flag.  The flag itself is old and worn and many people don't remember what it came from. But what it represents lives on.  The reason that flag was made.  What that flag stands for.

 

While people may not use the term "Hysterical" anymore.  People sure as heck still use the concept of "Women unable to control their emotions." If you're lucky, they just imply "Women are more empathetic" or "Women are just motherly."  Which is about the best you can hope for from that one.  At worst...well, see your nearest stand-up comedian for that.  You can find "emotional" being used against women all the time.

 

So when someone raises that old flag.  It's not the flag we're worried about.  It's not wandering uterus.  It's the power behind that flag.  The sexism that exists to this day that this flag is flying for.

[Reshasis]

Pathetic beta males gonna beta male. News at eleven.

[Grilleds]

This single instance won't end the world. But it's yet another instance. It's another straw, grain of sand, whatever. Pick your simile. Women across the world have been fighting to be taken seriously as a powerful force in the world. The moment you show a hint of emotion, you're labeled emotional and weak. Watch the discourse about female politicians. Acting like there isn't a massive misogynistic miasma covering... just... everything. C'mon. This isn't something that happened in the past. It's on going. The word, what it means, and who it hurts are all present day concerns.

Your white knighting here is more counter productive than anything else. Do you really think women need to be protected from a joke about the etymology of a word? Do you really think women will be taken MORE seriously by censoring jokes about them? No. This double standard is the exact reason why there is still sexism in countries where women have the same rights as men. When we stop trying to protect women from every little thing, maybe, just maybe, people will stop thinking of them differently.Also you are exaggerating (massive misogynistic miasma? Where do you live? The Middle East?).I just want to stress the fact that nobody uses the term hysteria in a sexist way non-ironically anymore. This is a total non-issue, and the fact that people are making it out to be an issue just goes to show how overly sensitive people are. This is why we can't have nice things!

It's less about being offended and more about something being derogatory or denigrating. In fact, you used "offend" or "offense" in one post more than Bennick used this entire thread. Something does not need to be offensive for it to be wrong. Really? Because they never once used the word "context" in this thread. Care to explain how?

Derogatory statements aren't always "bad", at least when people have a sense of humor. Ever hear a dumb blonde joke? Did you immediately froth at the mouth and start complaining about the insensitivity when you heard it? Did you just ignore the joke? Or did you actually laugh?------Look, as much as I would get a kick out of having a men vs women debate, or an argument about whether the feminist movement does more harm than good these days, or even an argument about politics in countries where women are oppressed, this isn't the place for it.This topic is about a simple joke regarding an outdated definition of a word. If you didn't find it funny, then simply ignore it. Nobody is being hurt by this, because its simply not current. I'd get it if it was like the Dead Island fiasco where the sexist term in question is actually still current (and I still found even THAT funny), but we are talking about a middle ages term here. Edited November 22, 2013 by Grilleds

[BlueThingy]

Doesn't bother me.

Warner Bros got away with punning with

the name for a cartoon of theirs, DE can do what they want.

For what it matters, I am of the belief that gender shouldn't

be a determining factor in one's existence, but come on, this

is just nitpicking, I feel.

 

 

Just because someone once got away with sexism doesn't actually mean everyone else gets a free pass.

 

"nitpicking" is the only way to raise awareness.  And raising awareness is the only way to actually combat this stuff.

[Grilleds]

Just because someone once got away with sexism doesn't actually mean everyone else gets a free pass.

 

"nitpicking" is the only way to raise awareness.  And raising awareness is the only way to actually combat this stuff.

Its a good thing you are nitpicking here, otherwise some poor defensive-less woman might have actually gotten hurt from the evil middle-ages definition of a word!

Quick question. Why do people feel women need to be protected, and yet also claim to support egalitarianism, as if those two things aren't contradictory? If this was a joke at the expense of men, nobody would complain. But its a joke at the expense of time traveling middle ages women, so naturally the white knights line up to defend them. Because apparently they think women are made of soft glass and need protection from jokes. Do you also heckle female comedians who make jokes about women?

Drop the silly double standards. They do more harm than good.

[ApocDream]

OP, are you by any chance a white male with black horn rimmed glasses and very tight pants?

 

Purple hoodie optional.

[Grilleds]

OP, are you by any chance a white male with black horn rimmed glasses and very tight pants?

 

Purple hoodie optional.

And a fedora. Don't forget the hipster fedora.

[Me.KayOh]

Lol. this thread. i saw this mentioned before by someone but i didnt think it'd get this far. the only reason that this is becoming a problem is because people are breathing life into dead meanings of a word that no one else would have paid any attention to, because humanity has evolved past it. Not everyone does history classes and learns about the etymology of words such as these and their dark meanings.

 

However it is pathetic to insinuate that, because people dont know the word's origin and still use the word, that they are in fact trying to transmit the original meaning of the word in modern times. The only people who are receiving the transmission of the word's original meanings are those who are affording the word's origins alot of time and consideration, and that is the people who are clamouring about the word's offensive origin, while blatantly ignoring the time we actually live in.

 

I agree with the title of this thread. The name is highly offensive on a HISTORICAL BASIS. this is true. and had warframe been developed around the time this word's usage was meant to imply...whatever silliness was stated previously in this thread, then it would be cause for mass controversy and segregation. However this is not the case.

 

I'm not here to say no, dont make a problem out of it. sure, go ahead and keep clamouring about something that is totally irrelevant and out of context. just remember that this is a reflection of yourself.

 

i was about to make another point but i see Grilleds has already made it for me. thanks.

 

#doublestandards.

[Yg-Dosst]

Just because someone once got away with sexism doesn't actually mean everyone else gets a free pass.

 

"nitpicking" is the only way to raise awareness.  And raising awareness is the only way to actually combat this stuff.

 

In this case "Raising awareness" is more akin to "Linking the already poorly viewed feminist movement with obnoxiousness in a community that was previously untouched by it, forming a terrible first impression, and potentially barring your opinion from being heard or applied"

 

Which Is actually pretty damaging to your movement.

 

Feminists are known to be cancerous to numerous communities and subjects forcing their opinion where it is unneccessary, in an attempt to angrily and haphazardly convert others to the ideology.

This is just confirming that.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Yg-Dosst

[Otaiken]

My f-ing god there's TWO of those topics?! Paste time!

 

You realize that "hysterical" is used as a synonym for "hilarious" these days right?

 

Oh, and how many people in the average age bracket of this game even know about this history? It's not like it's common knowledge these days.. unless you fancy yourself intellectual or watch QI I guess.

 

Funny thing is we have the rough modern day equivalent of the use of the old timey hysteria. Now if DE named Valkyr's ultimate PMS, then that would rise some eyebrows xD

[Yg-Dosst]

My f-ing god there's TWO of those topics?! Paste time!

 

You realize that "hysterical" is used as a synonym for "hilarious" these days right?

 

Oh, and how many people in the average age bracket of this game even know about this history? It's not like it's common knowledge these days.. unless you fancy yourself intellectual or watch QI I guess.

 

Funny thing is we have the rough modern day equivalent of the use of the old timey hysteria. Now if DE named Valkyr's ultimate PMS, then that would rise some eyebrows xD

Yep, but they've left

I think they've given up.

 

Good thing too.

Hopefully DE doesn't pander or cater to feminists because that only tends to bring more of them and their aggressive nature.

[Otaiken]

Yep, but they've left

I think they've given up.

 

Good thing too.

Hopefully DE doesn't pander or cater to feminists because that only tends to bring more of them and their aggressive nature.

 

Please don't call them feminists, cause that just adds fuel onto the fire. Silly people? Yes, but not necessarily feminists.

[MageMeat]

Please keep in mind that it is doubtful DE (let alone any game developer) actually looks into the names of abilities before putting them in.

None of this is intentional. They are capable of changing the name if you give a good argument.

Just don't go around acting as if the game is sexist because of one or two missteps on their behalf.

[Grilleds]

Please keep in mind that it is doubtful DE (let alone any game developer) actually looks into the names of abilities before putting them in.

None of this is intentional. They are capable of changing the name if you give a good argument.

Just don't go around acting as if the game is sexist because of one or two missteps on their behalf.

I was under the impression that the name was meant to be a joke. Sadly some of us lack a sense of humor.

[Loswaith]

So you take issue with a word being used thats evolved beyond its archaic meaning (thats kind of like taking issue with decimation being used in the context of annihilation).  You kinda lost the whole argument there given you happily ignore the entire concept of the warframe being a brutalised and tortured woman (ie. the whole volence againts women bit).  Very strange priorities.  I could see your point better if you took the whole concept as an issue rather than simply just a word used for a power that wouldnt have been second guessed if it was a male warframe (your adding the sexual seperation there).

 

While the concept of the Beserker frame is there and the concept has bad connentations with reguards to violence towards women. I dont think it's design represents violence against women in the slightest either.  The concept is what DE was going for, a beserker, the fact is simply that it was time for a female frame (to keep the equality in male/female frames).  Thusly I doubt the gender of the frame had any impact at all on the inherant concept (especially since most beserker sugestions were for male frames).

[Flackenstien]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteria

Hysteria, in its colloquial use, describes unmanageable emotional excesses. People who are "hysterical" often lose self-control due to an overwhelming fear that may be caused by events in one's past that involved some sort of severe conflict.

 

It fits her perfectly..

People need to stop shouting for renames for such stupid reasons. (Especially when it's not even a reason like this case..)

Edited November 22, 2013 by Flackenstien

[CY13ERPUNK]

Zakalwe, on 21 Nov 2013 - 2:16 PM, said:

As I said in the other thread like this, the etymology of the word has no bearing in the modern word. Language evolves, and this word has long evolved to leave that meaning far, far behind.

Lots of words have dark origins, but that has nothing to do with the way they're used in the modern world.

You really do need to relax.

AscendantWyvern, on 21 Nov 2013 - 2:17 PM, said:

Did you know how many people this year alone where killed by Sarin gas?

I think we can let small things like these move along.

LxLawliet, on 21 Nov 2013 - 2:22 PM, said:

By the same logic, the name "Trinity" for the very same Warframe wouldn't be allowed either since it refers to the christian concept of god and his three hypostases (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

I really hope you have better things to do than nitpicking on choice of words...

[Cursor]

Long post incoming.  Breaking longer responses into spoilers.

 

I didn't go anywhere, I just had some work to take care of.  And please, by all means, call me a feminist.  That's not something I'm ashamed of, I'm proud to identify that way.

 

Oh boy, lots to say.  I'll just go down the line.

 

This part is important so I'm cutting it out of Heretic's response:

On the subject of "hysteria," the word itself is not the problem, it's what the word embodies

 

Heretic.

Yes, the use of the word has changed, Hysteria no longer refers to what people actually though was a medical condition where the uterus made a woman insane and they had to get her off (an act that was seen as a chore) to fix it.  But the problem is not about the word itself, it's the attitude associate and concept with it, that being women are unable to control their emotions and that this can severely inhibit them and affect their actions.  It's a trope that persists to this day.  The triggering effect of DE using Hysteria is, again, less about the word, but the fact that of all possible words, they picked this one.  At the very least it's a sexist joke, and in any case it references this antiquated but persisting regard for women.

 

And because I feel like I'll need to say this a few times in this post I'm just going to reiterate one more time: the word itself is not the problem, it's what the word embodies.

 

Rocket.

Just because someone can or did get away with something wrong doesn't mean people should let them.  And as Blue said, nitpicking is unfortunately necessary.  It's a thankless and fatiguing practice, but silence on an issue such as gender/sexual discrimination only perpetuates it.

 

Reshasis, I'm terribly sorry but I am going to ignore you from here on because you used the term "beta-male."

 

Gilleds.

Please don't mistake my intentions.  I am not "white knighting."  This is an issue I hold very close to my heart, and I am nothing but genuine in my concerns for it.  I personally have nothing to gain from this at all, being a white-passing heterosexual cis-male, but I'm passionate about it because I care about the literal half of the population that is at risk for being affected by it.  Protection is the wrong word here, because the intention is not to confer benefit to women.  This implies that men are the eternal aggressors and cannot be changed, and I think that is wrong.  The idea is to change the cultural mindset and prevent the attitudes that cause sexual/gender discrimination from ever happening.

 

A simple PMS joke is not harmful by itself.  Neither is cat-calling.  But they're both indicative of greater problems, and unfortunately this low-level sexism creates the wrong cultural message: that this sort of behavior is okay to begin with.  It makes it socially acceptable, and makes greater crimes seem relatively less severe.  You don't casually throw around racist jokes with any honest intention behind them, but much of this sexist attitude is reflective of people's actual opinions on gender roles, and so is problematic.

 

I'm going to point again to my reiteration on the word hysteria above.  It's less about the word, and more about the gendered connotations, historical context, and greater social relevance.

 

Insensitive jokes can indeed be funny, but that doesn't make them appropriate and, once again, they're harmful if there is sincerity behind them.

 

Onto your second post.  It's not about the micro-level effect.  It's about the reflection of macro-level social trends.  I've said before on this thread or the other that "being offended" is not the problem.  Something does not need to be offensive to be harmful.  As I stated before, "protecting" women is not the point.  And even if it were, the difference here, and why it's not a double standard, is majority and privilege.  And there is nothing harmful about self-deprecating humor.  That doesn't hurt anyone, is not directed outward, and does not have a greater societal effect.  Although, as I've said before, women can be sexists against women.  Indoctrination works that way.

 

Also, I think you're very confused.  In the modern sense fedoras are associated with the MRA, although ironically the fedora was originally a symbol of women's liberation after an 1889 performance by Sarah Bernhardt as Princess Fedora.

 

Kalikilic.  Again, not about the word itself.  It's about the context surrounding it, and the fact that the same context has modern cultural relevance.

 

Yg.

What is obnoxious about it?  I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious.  And oh geez I would really, really disagree with you on your comment about feminism.  Feminist groups often cause issues, and common well known incidences were things like under representation of minorities and a lack of support for the transgender, asexual, and bisexual communities, but in all fairness the struggles of these groups are not immediately within the basic goal of feminism.  These things are rather peripheral to that goal, although proponents of feminism are often associated with these groups and movements concerning them as well.

 

The only people I can imagine being bothered by feminism are people who hold sexist opinions.  I really can't think of another reason someone would have issues with the goal of sexual and gender equality.

 

Loco.  Yes, there are two.  There probably should have been one.  Again, not the word itself, moving on.

 

And again, please call me a feminist.  Please.  I'd be offended if you didn't. :B

 

Mage, I would be overjoyed if this was just an oversight.  And I'd very much look forward to them changing it, because if they'd change the Dakka to the Darka because some Warhammer players were offended, then this should be an easy switch as well.  No one would want it to look like tabletop gamers got more representation than feminists, right?  That'd be silly.  And the game is not sexist, but there are things that are reflective of an androcentric pop culture within it.  These things are not the end of the world, but they certainly are worth keeping an eye out for.

 

Grilleds, if it was a joke it was a bad joke and one done completely poe-faced, which is to say it really just does not look like it.

 

Loswaith, not the word.  Cultural context.  The capture and torture was for a group, not individuals, certainly not an individual woman.  Violence against women was not even mentioned.  Moving on.

 

Flack, there were better words that had no gender connotations and implied strength better.

 

And I think I'm done.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Cursor

[TwiceDead]

All this fuzz over something so simple as naming tags is absolutely ridiculous. 

Focus on improving the actual gameplay, rather than waste time digging into cultural history for old meanings the majority of the present world no longer cares about.

 

Such as the addition to vaulting over small ledges this update. A nice step in the right direction. Those are the kind of additions to the game the majority wants DE, things to flesh out gameplay.

 

GAMEPLAY OVER ANYTHING ELSE! Unless you are named David Cage. 

Edited November 22, 2013 by TwiceDead

[Grilleds]

A simple PMS joke is not harmful by itself.  Neither is cat-calling.  But they're both indicative of greater problems, and unfortunately this low-level sexism creates the wrong cultural message: that this sort of behavior is okay to begin with.  It makes it socially acceptable, and makes greater crimes seem relatively less severe.  You don't casually throw around racist jokes with any honest intention behind them, but much of this sexist attitude is reflective of people's actual opinions on gender roles, and so is problematic.

Indicative of a problem isn't the same thing as helping the problem. If a Jewish comedian makes a greedy %!& joke, does that cause a huge increase in antisemitism? No, but it does indicate that antisemitism exists. You need to learn the difference between lighthearted jokes that target one group, and outright hatred of said group.

 

I'm going to point again to my reiteration on the word hysteria above.  It's less about the word, and more about the gendered connotations, historical context, and greater social relevance.

 

Insensitive jokes can indeed be funny, but that doesn't make them appropriate and, once again, they're harmful if there is sincerity behind them.

There is no sincerity behind the joke here. Stop reading too much into it. There isn't a problem here, but you seem to be trying to create one so you can soapbox about it. Almost your entire post is unrelated to the skill being named "Hysteria", most of it is just you soapboxing.

 

Onto your second post.  It's not about the micro-level effect.  It's about the reflection of macro-level social trends.  I've said before on this thread or the other that "being offended" is not the problem.  Something does not need to be offensive to be harmful.  As I stated before, "protecting" women is not the point.  And even if it were, the difference here, and why it's not a double standard, is majority and privilege.  And there is nothing harmful about self-deprecating humor.  That doesn't hurt anyone, is not directed outward, and does not have a greater societal effect.  Although, as I've said before, women can be sexists against women.  Indoctrination works that way.

DE can't do anything about macro-level social trends, so stop blaming them. Self-deprecating humor is only different from humor that makes fun of others because we PERCEIVE it differently. I'm German born and in rare cases I'll make a joke about American perceptions of German's, but I don't get mad when other people do it. Double standards are bad. The joke is the same no matter who makes it. So the problem here is about people acting offended and soapboxing on the spot. A joke about something isn't always an attack on it.

 

Also, I think you're very confused.  In the modern sense fedoras are associated with the MRA, although ironically the fedora was originally a symbol of women's liberation after an 1889 performance by Sarah Bernhardt as Princess Fedora.

No, fedora's are associated with hipsters and neckbeards, who tend to go on forums and crusade about some issue. Posting a picture of yourself wearing a Fedora online, is like saying "I'm an overly pretentious hipster", at least according to websites like 4chan that make shaming people who wear fedora's into practically a sport.

 

The only people I can imagine being bothered by feminism are people who hold sexist opinions.  I really can't think of another reason someone would have issues with the goal of sexual and gender equality.

Feminism is NOT Egalitarianism. I'm not going to make yet another post explaining how the word Feminist has degraded in meaning since I probably shouldn't have even bothered in the first place. Instead I'll just link you to my post:

Post

Long story short. The word Feminist doesn't mean "equal rights", and in fact it never did. What it used to mean is "Supporter of the women's right's movement", however it doesn't mean that anymore. The word has degraded to near meaninglessness and is often used as a cover for misandry. Hence why the term is often viewed as negative or offensive. I simply do not understand why anyone would call themselves a Feminist instead of an Egalitarian.

 

 

Grilleds, if it was a joke it was a bad joke and one done completely poe-faced, which is to say it really just does not look like it.

I thought it was pretty funny and so did quite a few other people. Then again, I'm not super-sensitive and easily offended. Take a step back, realize DE isn't sexist, and realize that its a historical joke that most people aren't even going to get. Edited November 22, 2013 by Grilleds

[Yg-Dosst]

Cursor.

Just because I loathe Bronies doesn't mean I hate Horses.

It means I hate anyone and everyone who feels that it is necessary to consistently try to drag and forcefully inject their own fandom/politics into something that I would like to enjoy.

I hate people who insist that something MUST conform to appease a group of people who spend most of their time trying to force other things to conform to that group, like a cultural cancer.

Do I hate women? No.

Do I hate homo-sexual people? No.

Do I hate people who feel compelled to *@##$ and moan over the internet about how "oppressed" they are when they have never been after by the thing they're complaining about? Quite a bit.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Yg-Dosst