Voruna lacks defensive capacities

[kerozen666]

I've been playing Voruna since her launch, and I would say she has one big issue that is holding her back. THe way her current kit is working, she gets all her tanking capacities from furiously killing enemies in melee. So as long as she can do that, she gets to stay away from death. however, the second she's fighting something that is not easily killable in melee (bosses, liches, acolytes) or decide to use hers guns, she becomes pretty vulnerable to direct damage. The status immunity is wonderful, but doesn't protect het from being shot at. Sure, she can go invisible, but to stasy that way you need to refrain from attacking, so it's not letting you regain much health

I belive (in my humble opinion) that granting her Damage reduction with maybe her third ability could help her survive and be the melee frame she's meant to be without having to use subsume to "fix" her survivability. But that's just a proposal, i'm sure people in the devellopment team could come up with better ideas

[(XBOX)elementXGHILLIE]

Check the augment idea.

[Pakaku]

She seems to be an evasive warframe, hence she can turn invisible if she needs to play it safe or escape being targeted. I would be very careful when it comes to giving her pure defensive mechanics since she isn't really designed to tank, since her role is to debuff mobs of enemies insanely quickly and take them out fast. So yeah, that also means she's not the best against status-resistant enemies, but that's just the drawback to being reliant on mass-debuffing everything else super easily.

[kerozen666]

Even if she's evasive, she's still a melee frame. Being in melee means getting exposed to more damage. She deals heavy damage, but not to a zone large enough that it would excuse poor survivability Gyre style. Getting DR like citrine is getting would be fair i belive

[Loza03]

In fairness, it is thematic since whilst wolves are stealthy and so forth, they're not really known for being the most durable animals.

 

From a balance perspective, its more a whole game problem that frames need so much damage reduction to remain viable late-game.

[kerozen666]

il y a 22 minutes, Loza03 a dit :

In fairness, it is thematic since whilst wolves are stealthy and so forth, they're not really known for being the most durable animals.

 

From a balance perspective, its more a whole game problem that frames need so much damage reduction to remain viable late-game.

well, it's more damage reduction and/or prevention. i've started playing in 2016, and it seemed that every frame had one way to access that. it's just that now, Voruna sticks out because she has exelent recovery, but is limited to melee, and more precisely, mowing down hordes. But the second you can't mow down in melee or just want to use a gun, well, you're stuck with nothing. It's also quite infuriating considering the frame that came out right after has good damage potential, DR and orb generation. 

[KitMeHarder]

2 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

Sure, she can go invisible, but to stasy that way you need to refrain from attacking

None of her abilities break her stealth. So IDK how well it does, but you can use her 4 to chunk down something like a the lich example you brought up. 

You can also use her 4's passive give you a free life, full heal, and brief invincibility.

[Raarsi]

2 hours ago, kerozen666 said:

Even if she's evasive, she's still a melee frame. Being in melee means getting exposed to more damage. She deals heavy damage, but not to a zone large enough that it would excuse poor survivability Gyre style. Getting DR like citrine is getting would be fair i belive

This is only looking at one half of how she plays, as there is definitely a reason why she was brought in with a sniper rifle.  Any good Ivara player would know the value of stealth when it comes to sniping; difference with Voruna is that her headshot sniping can make enemies rain energy orbs.

While you wouldn't be able to build her for both melee and sniping, you can still fall back on the stealth sniper playstyle when melee becomes more difficult to do.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

I don't know, while i agree that she doesn't have the usual Damage reduction slapped on every Warframe, I Can't say anything about it because she can go invisible to evade attention, and also has a get out of jail free card passive that activates every 60 seconds.

I usually don't die a lot with her, yes not as durable as other Warframes, but she's not a tank.

 

if there's too much tension on the field, i cast her 1 to get out of bullets, and if i'm loosing health rapidly i activate her fourth passive. it can work

[kerozen666]

Il y a 9 heures, Raarsi a dit :

This is only looking at one half of how she plays, as there is definitely a reason why she was brought in with a sniper rifle.  Any good Ivara player would know the value of stealth when it comes to sniping; difference with Voruna is that her headshot sniping can make enemies rain energy orbs.

While you wouldn't be able to build her for both melee and sniping, you can still fall back on the stealth sniper playstyle when melee becomes more difficult to do.

i get the idea of stealth, but hers is remove uppon attacking. That means that it's not so great to save her life, as her way of regaining stuff require her to quit it, unlike Loki, ash, ivara, octavia, where the stealth don't break if you attack. it's more of a positioning tool and a panic button than anything else. She came with a sniper, but that doesn't means she should be restricted to it. Beside, we are in a game where archon and liches exist, enemies that every frame gets something against to survive effectively but her, especially the melee ones. 

[kerozen666]

Il y a 11 heures, KitMeHarder a dit :

None of her abilities break her stealth. So IDK how well it does, but you can use her 4 to chunk down something like a the lich example you brought up. 

You can also use her 4's passive give you a free life, full heal, and brief invincibility.

her 4th is in a strange place. it require build up to do massive damage, so against isolated enemies it's not that great. it lso doesn't solve the issue of having to stay away from guns to survive. Also, using her abilities to kill also don't provide health, so you are again, required to go into danger to save you from danger. 

all i'm saying is that a frame should not be bound to one specific type of weapon for staying alive. Especially when it's a frame that came out between two self sustainable frame and along a reworked one that can technicly do melee better than her

[kerozen666]

Il y a 7 heures, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk a dit :

yes not as durable as other Warframes, but she's not a tank.

 

She doesn't have to be a full tank, but being able to survive decently outside of melee would be kind of a minimun. She has no CC, so having damage reduction would be the way to go. it's really just so she doesn't die for daring to shoot or from a flying enemy she cant reach with her melee.

Edit: having her invisibility not broken on shooting guns would also potentially do the trick. would let you do some priming and take out specific enemies without making you too strong in melee

[sunderthefirmament]

20 minutes ago, kerozen666 said:

i get the idea of stealth, but hers is remove uppon attacking. That means that it's not so great to save her life, as her way of regaining stuff require her to quit it, unlike Loki, ash, ivara, octavia, where the stealth don't break if you attack. it's more of a positioning tool and a panic button than anything else.

It's suitable for spamming though, which makes it strong as a survivability tool when paired with even a modicum of shield gating options, like an augur mod or two.

 

Stealth is so overpowered in this game that even Voruna's, which as you've pointed out breaks when she attacks, is still incredibly potent for defense.

[kerozen666]

il y a 19 minutes, sunderthefirmament a dit :

It's suitable for spamming though, which makes it strong as a survivability tool when paired with even a modicum of shield gating options, like an augur mod or two.

 

Stealth is so overpowered in this game that even Voruna's, which as you've pointed out breaks when she attacks, is still incredibly potent for defense.

to spam you still require energy, which can be tricky if you are in a low enemy situation. if her stealth would not be broken by gunshot that would already potentially solve it. you would still be vulnerable to stray bullets and could not heal, but at least you would not as much of a sitting duck. Otherwise, you are either stuck cheesing gating or just subsuming gloom, which usually cost her her coolest ability

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, kerozen666 said:

to spam you still require energy, which can be tricky if you are in a low enemy situation. if her stealth would not be broken by gunshot that would already potentially solve it. you would still be vulnerable to stray bullets and could not heal, but at least you would not as much of a sitting duck. Otherwise, you are either stuck cheesing gating or just subsuming gloom, which usually cost her her coolest ability

I think it's okay that in this very specific situation you're describing, Voruna just doesn't excel.  Not every frame is a great pick against solitary bosses.  It is worth debating how DE could improve their boss mechanics so that more frames are viable and can even flourish.  Like with Archons, you've got ability immune bosses, high enemy damage, and revive restrictions.  Playing as a caster frame like Gyre or Ember isn't really incentivized.  But I digress.  I think that Voruna has enough defensive options in her kit.  And if you need more, it's really easy to replace the 4, as it's basically a dead ability anyway.  Any content where Voruna will struggle surviving is content where her 4 is already irrelevant.

[kerozen666]

il y a 16 minutes, sunderthefirmament a dit :

I think it's okay that in this very specific situation you're describing, Voruna just doesn't excel.  Not every frame is a great pick against solitary bosses.  It is worth debating how DE could improve their boss mechanics so that more frames are viable and can even flourish.  Like with Archons, you've got ability immune bosses, high enemy damage, and revive restrictions.  Playing as a caster frame like Gyre or Ember isn't really incentivized.  But I digress.  I think that Voruna has enough defensive options in her kit.  And if you need more, it's really easy to replace the 4, as it's basically a dead ability anyway.  Any content where Voruna will struggle surviving is content where her 4 is already irrelevant.

her 4 is really good, it's just the one you can let go more easily. also, gyre is a nuke frame, that's her survivability, and ember had damage reduction. as much as those two aren't the best for archin, they still have some defensive option. Voruna has her 1rst, sure, but do you really want to spam one ability constantly to stay up when melee isn't super possible? 

The last thing you want for a frame is aving to subsume to fix a gap in their kit, especially when the one you can let go is the one that should be the highlight of a kit

[EinheriarJudith]

no she does not need damage reduction added to her kit.

use health conversion or

use arcane guardian or

use adaptation or 

use augur mods for shield gate.

[TKDancer]

On 3/11/2023 at 8:25 PM, EinheriarJudith said:

use health conversion or

use arcane guardian or

use adaptation or

frames with damage reduction abilities can also use adaptation and armor boosts but thanks to the extra defense reduction from ability their EHP is going to be vastly superior(and they help against slash procs, unlike armor, tho voruna can choose to be status immune), and of course we have frames that do a better job at just staying invisible all the time(even if they lack her special buffs from after breaking invisi)

a good example is nezha here, i can get both nezha and voruna to get very similar EHP values with a basic vitality + health conversion + arcane guardian + arcane blessing (assuming maxed build up) build, both around 20k EHP before adaptation(and both having means to fuel health conversion reliably), but then warding halo multiplies that by 10 and as im sure you can understand, 200k EHP before adaptation is a lot more than 20k

the idea of temporary invisibility that breaks on attacks is neat on paper, fits thematically even! a pack of wolves ambushing their prey, but in action? at high levels? feels weird, feels clunky, adding some DR to her kit would help her a lot

tho imo a bigger help for her kit would be making her 2 ACTUALLY spread to enemies, as in all those enemies with 5 statuses spread those statuses to other enemies and those enemies, if killed in time, also spread them, so on and so forth...

but both would be nice :) and improvements to her including making it count as a melee attack so it can trigger lycath's hunt

but with duviri on the horizon and citrine already being out i doubt voruna is getting any touch ups soon :/

[Sojufueled]

Never really had trouble keeping her alive. Her 2 usually has enemies so addled with status ailments that they can barely fight back.

[EinheriarJudith]

9 hours ago, TKDancer said:

frames with damage reduction abilities can also use adaptation and armor boosts but thanks to the extra defense reduction from ability their EHP is going to be vastly superior(and they help against slash procs, unlike armor, tho voruna can choose to be status immune), and of course we have frames that do a better job at just staying invisible all the time(even if they lack her special buffs from after breaking invisi)

a good example is nezha here, i can get both nezha and voruna to get very similar EHP values with a basic vitality + health conversion + arcane guardian + arcane blessing (assuming maxed build up) build, both around 20k EHP before adaptation(and both having means to fuel health conversion reliably), but then warding halo multiplies that by 10 and as im sure you can understand, 200k EHP before adaptation is a lot more than 20k

the idea of temporary invisibility that breaks on attacks is neat on paper, fits thematically even! a pack of wolves ambushing their prey, but in action? at high levels? feels weird, feels clunky, adding some DR to her kit would help her a lot

health conversion and warding halo has a synergy. the armor boost from health conversion vastly increases warding halos health before the boost it gets after the invulnerability period.

nezha would not need to use adaptation because DR is capped at 90 which is warding halos default. it is unnecessary overlap. voruna doesnt need to have DR added to her kit because there are already viable options for this.

DE shouldnt be trying to enable the people who refuse to use survivability mods. 

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Sojufueled said:

Never really had trouble keeping her alive. Her 2 usually has enemies so addled with status ailments that they can barely fight back.

pretty much this. never had any trouble with her status proliferation.

[TKDancer]

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

nezha would not need to use adaptation because DR is capped at 90

that is not how adaptation works, it doesnt get capped by ability DR, warding halo has 90% DR and adaptation further reduces that 10% of dmg that goes through, reducing dmg even further, as does armor tho only for health damage, so you're going off incredibly wrong information here

armor and DR from abilities basically always stack multiplicatively when determining EHP, thats why 90% DR = multiplying EHP by 10 since the frame would be taking only 1/10 of the original dmg, the same applies to adaptation, tho only for the specific dmg types its been built up for, so a frame with 90% universal DR from an ability + 90% adaptation DR against, lets say impact, will take 1% of the dmg they would normally take from an attack that would do pure impact damage, with armor further reducing that dmg against health

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

health conversion and warding halo has a synergy.

beyond the armor boosting the power of the halo(which doesnt really matter too too much if we're being honest), armor also reduces the dmg to health taken while halo's 90% is up is up, yes, so nezha's EHP truly skyrockets by comparison

3 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

DE shouldnt be trying to enable the people who refuse to use survivability mods. 

ironically one of the best ways to do this is..... giving frames DR abilities or invisibility that *doesnt* break on attacking... or a way to consistently generate shields for constant shield gating

i.e i only run adaptation on my gara which isnt really even mandatory, cause of her 90% DR from splinterstorm and constant shield generation from the helminth'd pillage i gave her is enough in most content

[Hypernaut1]

she should have 95% damage reduction as her 4th passive and a way to generate unlimited energy as her 3rd. Then she would be playable. 

[TKDancer]

51 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

she should have 95% damage reduction as her 4th passive

95% is tad too much but some form of DR would prolly be more beneficial than what it currently is, tho people would complain about not being able to subsume over her 4 without losing it so itd prolly be best implemented as part of one of her first three abilities

 

52 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

 and a way to generate unlimited energy as her 3rd

this she already does have, she generates enough health orbs through melee kills to fuel her energy through equilibrium and can directly generate energy orbs with headshot kills

that is, unless you are being sarcastic here

[DeadVoid118]

On 2023-03-09 at 7:42 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

It's suitable for spamming though, which makes it strong as a survivability tool when paired with even a modicum of shield gating options, like an augur mod or two.

 

Stealth is so overpowered in this game that even Voruna's, which as you've pointed out breaks when she attacks, is still incredibly potent for defense.

I'm somewhat of the opinion that shield-gating is dumb and any frame that has to rely on it is a bad frame, at least before level cap.

Stealth is... okay. It's good when you're playing solo, but trash when playing in a group (unless you're all playing stealth) because all it takes is two hits with the right timing to down you and enemies like to spray damage everywhere. It's really bad survivability unless you're also playing with shield-gating, but then you don't need stealth anyway.

I'm all for a tanky stealth frame.