Celestial Twin AI, Primal Fury Stance, Both Need Attention

[TKDancer]

now, been months since his damage was halved, was made to share ammo with us and made susceptible to self stagger(which never really mattered cause i imagine most wukong players slot PSF anyways), so can we PLEASE get some improvements/fixes to the Celestial Twin/specter AI?

the damn thing will stand there without shooting his gun/swinging his melee weapon, he aims at center of mass, he ignores it when enemies are partially blocked by the environment(i.e a small safety railing on a walkway blocking 60% of an enemy? doesnt care, will shoot center of mass and miss everything), insists on crouching when shooting guns which makes the previous issue even worse, doesnt use melee weapon combos properly/at all, doesnt understand the nature of the weapon given to them(wont alter behavior based on weapon, will snipe with shotguns or do CQB with a vectis), reloads when he doesnt need to(will fire 1-2 rounds from a 10 round magazine and reload WHEN THERE ARE ENEMIES IN VIEW) and of course: he has nothing built into his AI to stay alive beyond shooting weapons, no survivability beyond an inaros' like health pool and the armor from defy, which is simply not enough for a specter that KEEP STANDING STILL WHILE BEING SHOT BY 30 ENEMIESSSSSSSSS

a lot of these problems was what led people to give wukong's celestial twin AoE weapons, his bad aim meant he got the best results when given something that can hit everything in a wide area, none of it got fixed/addressed after his nerf, and the ammo sharing(instead of giving him a separate ammo pool) means that a player flowing between melee and guns might find themself out of ammo cause their clone wasted it all

the whole marking mechanic also makes little sense to me, if in a scenario where you need the extra dmg and focused fire from clone, the player is usually better off just focuing the priority target themselves, marking should have been automatic(celestial twin focuses same targets as the player with a dmg bonus vs those targets) and/or applied in a AoE, i know that putting emphasis on the mark mechanic by halving his base dmg was an attempt to fight afk/passive play, but it failed at that

now dont get me wrong, twin works more than fine for the majority of content, but thats just cause the majority of content is ridiculously easy with properly modded weapons, specially one of the AoE/chaining weapons that didnt get hit as hard by the ammo economy nerfs, when our twin is pushed against higher level enemies, specially SP enemies, our dear old clone's terrible AI shows how bad he is at actually fighting, and his dmg starts suffering vs high level armor real bad, hell he cant even use defensive frame arcanes(like guardian and grace) or benefit from the bonuses of galvanized mods

.....

as for Primal Fury and by extension Iron Staff, lets 1st say we need blood rush/weeping wounds to be made available for it and all other exalted melee weapons, traditional melee is already lagging behind(thanks follow through :/), exalted melee more so(baruuk's being the biggest exception since his "melee" attacks are basically bigger arca plasmor shots), players shouldnt have to rely on gimmicky interactions with gladiator mods or augments like primal rage to get the blood rush effect, quite simply no reason for it, specially when most exalted weapons, iron staff included, dont even have exceptional stats, doesnt help that prime exalted weapons dont even get better stats than their non-prime counterparts, i know this complaint has been made for years only to fall on deaf ears but we need changes here

with that out of the way, this stance, and other exalted melee stances, need some heavy work: not a single forced slash proc on the entire stance of a weapon without a slash focus in it's damage distribution(basically 2/3 impact 1/3 slash), below average multipliers for its combos, clunky combos(with a couple decent but clunky multi hits), only 1 attack that can help with grouping enemies in the entire stance, the 1.0 follow through coupled with its large range is its biggest saving grace but its not enough, im REALLY hoping we dont get a second primal fury augment that works like chromatic blade/reactive storm, that would be an awful cop out, rn we gotta work triple time to make Iron Staff compete with regular melee weapons and it still loses, to the point that many reccomend to give wukong a helminth ability over it, things like roar, pillage, terrify, xatas whisper and so on allowing wukong to do more dmg with a better weapon(and roar also buffing our very clunky clone)

Edited Saturday at 07:52 AM by TKDancer

[XHADgaming]

If there was an augment that said, The twin never uses a melee weapon. I would equip it in an instant. 

So much unnecessary swinging and so little damage with melee.

 

33 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

a lot of these problems was what led people to give wukong's celestial twin AoE weapons

What led to me giving him the AOE weapon was the insane KPS it was able to achieve with it, sadly not tracked but I'd put it in the range of being able to provide a bigger loot bonus compared to one of the looter frames from more killed enemies. Not the fact that I use AOE therefore twin uses AOE weapon.  I'm sure others had reasons to give him the AOE weapon such as them using a lone AOE weapon in their kit as well. Different people will have different responses to why they gave their twin the weapon they did.

I'd say the nerfs from then have been alright. It was the problems that remained unaffected by the changes that were problematic. Like them using a melee or wonky targeting it has with some weapons.

 

42 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

the whole marking mechanic also makes little sense to me, if in a scenario where you need the extra dmg and focused fire from clone, the player is usually better off just focuing the priority target themselves, marking should have been automatic(celestial twin focuses same targets as the player with a dmg bonus vs those targets) and/or applied in a AoE, i know that putting emphasis on the mark mechanic by halving his base dmg was an attempt to fight afk/passive play, but it failed at that

Oh yeah forgot marking exists. I'm guess they had to put something in there to make it act like a "normal" ability and not one that has a 100% upkeep with no downsides. Its better than nothing at least I suppose? I just use helminth to solve whatever issue I find most pressing with the twin or me, most of the time its twin though. Or take care of them myself like with a Glaive that the twin would suck at wielding.

 

52 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

now dont get me wrong, twin works more than fine for the majority of content, but thats just cause the majority of content is ridiculously easy with properly modded weapons, specially one of the AoE/chaining weapons that didnt get hit as hard by the ammo economy nerfs, when our twin is pushed against higher level enemies, specially SP enemies, our dear old clone's terrible AI shows how bad he is at actually fighting, and his dmg starts suffering vs high level armor real bad, hell he cant even use defensive frame arcanes(like guardian and grace) or benefit from the bonuses of galvanized mods

Yeah the twin is still really strong in many facets of content and shouldn't be dismissed simply because the level is too high or being see as a recent addition to the nerf bandwagon. 

[TKDancer]

5 minutes ago, XHADgaming said:

I'd say the nerfs from then have been alright. It was the problems that remained unaffected by the changes that were problematic. Like them using a melee or wonky targeting it has with some weapons.

im fine with reducing his dmg and trying to incorporate a way to give people that dmg back as a reward for being active instead of passive/afk, tho the marking system being the only way to do so, was a miss

i dont think clone should be able to clear levels by himself but due to how bad the AI is at high levels unless you give him the best weapons for his AI(that dont have poopie ammo now or rely on alt fires) like an envoy, tonkor, nukor/cycron, he can kinda just feel useless, and even then he struggles

now of course i dont think balance discussions should only consider high level SP/archon hunt content but they should include them

he struggles to properly attack enemies, specially in higher enemy density, struggles with staying alive unless you constantly pop in and out of cloud walker, he doesnt benefit from arcane grace or defender, he cant benefit from the player getting melee kills if his guns have the dexterity arcanes, he cant use the galvanized mods properly so if trying to improve his dmg we gotta nerf our own, he doesnt use wukong's abilities outside of the incredibly mediocre primal fury which he sucks at using also

im fine with his dmg being much lower than ours, but he should be able to fight properly and to fully benefit from our gear, not just standing crouching in place taking shots from 30 enemies while trying to shoot enemies center of mass at point blank range with an arca plasmor which results in him firing the gun downwards and missing most enemies
 

 

13 minutes ago, XHADgaming said:

What led to me giving him the AOE weapon was the insane KPS it was able to achieve with it

well yeah the domineering AoE meta was obviously a big factor too, but its an issue only made worse due to the AI struggling so much to just fire weapons, meaning big booms were a lot more consistent at hitting things(and then got the benefit of hitting  alot of things at once, and doing big dmg)

[Raarsi]

I could definitely see an augment for the Wuklone:

"Celestial Twin now summons two clones, each dealing 25% of Wukong's damage.  One clone will attack in melee, while the other will attack from range."

And to top it off, the augment could be called "Splitting Hairs".

[TKDancer]

1 hour ago, Raarsi said:

I could definitely see an augment for the Wuklone:

"Celestial Twin now summons two clones, each dealing 25% of Wukong's damage.  One clone will attack in melee, while the other will attack from range."

And to top it off, the augment could be called "Splitting Hairs".

none of that addresses the issues the clone has of godawful AI, 2 clones with still be bad at higher levels(if not worse if we ever got them with that even further reduced dmg) and be even stronger at lower levels, it also doesnt address the issue of primal fury being Meh compared to a good melee weapon(with only saving grace being range and 1.0 FT)

i would be fine if twin kept his halved dmg if his AI was effective at fighting enemies, moving around and staying alive, specially if the marking system was changed so just attacking enemies applied the dmg buff mark for like 10 seconds

this thread is specifically about the many flaws celestial twin has that were ignored when he was nerfed that left in an awkward state where is mostly unchanged in low-mid level content and struggles a lot more in high level content, mainly with regards to its awful AI and how the marking system was a bad attempt at incentivizing active play as it is not necessary for most content and when it is necessary its clunky and slow to use

Edited Saturday at 02:54 AM by TKDancer

[gamingchair1121]

35 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

the issue of primal fury being Meh

dude primal fury is insane

not only do many attacks in the stance affect a massive area, it also has perfect follow through, meaning it will never lose any damage no matter how many enemies are hit. unlike a normal melee, it isn't massively hindered by the existence of the combo meter, as it doesn't rely on it for damage. at most, you only need a statstick with gladiator mods for red crits. it also just does enough damage that you dont need to waste your secondary slot on a primer. also its fun.

fr I do not get how people can even say it's bad

• wukong build
• staff build
• statstick build

[TKDancer]

39 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

dude primal fury is insane

its really not also im talking stance, staff is mostly fine aside from not being a slash focused weapon, but then is hurt SO MUCH by the stance not having a single forced slash proc, not amazing multipliers(tho the big spin is nice, despite the slow recovery), and clunky moves including moves that dont even benefit from crit chance(the aoe part of the staff ground slam moves)

the weapon itself has fine stats and the benefit of very long range coupled with 1.0 FT, but a better weapon with better stance will outdo the iron staff while not requiring energy nor forcing your poor clone into being a very ineffective melee bot that doesnt know how to swing a stick cause while his ai struggles at shooting it struggles more at swinging, tho i guess your build just straight up gets rid of him so thats no issue, thats also a weird staff build that looks like it would work better only at bullying low level mobs with that much reach lol

 

39 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

it isn't massively hindered by the existence of the combo meter, as it doesn't rely on it for damage

i mean, it does, thats why you are using a gladiator combo stick and primal rage aug isnt it? to get more dmg out of combo? like basically every other melee weapon?




this is also way beyond the point now, even if primal fury, the stance, was very good, the clone wouldnt know what to do with it, he would do 1 or 2 hits, then move to the next enemy and repeat

Edited Saturday at 04:12 AM by TKDancer

[gamingchair1121]

10 hours ago, TKDancer said:

but then is hurt SO MUCH by the stance not having a single forced slash proc

not really, just mod corrosive/heat for armor strip, then panzer for viral and it melts through everything

10 hours ago, TKDancer said:

a better weapon with better stance will outdo the iron staff while not requiring energy

wait which melee can outdo it? pretty sure the only thing that comes close would be the innodem but idk how much stronger it is

also you can get the drain of the staff down to 1.25 energy/sec with fleeting and streamline, then use energize and there's no way you run out of energy

10 hours ago, TKDancer said:

tho i guess your build just straight up gets rid of the clone so thats no issue

I do want to find some use for it but I just can't, a damage buff over it increases your damage far more than the clone would, even the augment is outclassed by gloom

10 hours ago, TKDancer said:

thats also a weird staff build that looks like it would work better only at bullying low level mobs with that much reach lol

trust me it is good, even in steel path

also how is it weird that's pretty much the default build you run on those kinds of weapons

10 hours ago, TKDancer said:

i mean, it does, thats why you are using a gladiator combo stick and primal rage aug isnt it? to get more dmg out of combo? like basically every other melee weapon?

actually it does work without the statstick, but since as wukong you use the staff, having a damaging melee is kinda pointless when you could use it to boost the staff's damage

10 hours ago, TKDancer said:

this is also way beyond the point now, even if primal fury, the stance, was very good, the clone wouldnt know what to do with it, he would do 1 or 2 hits, then move to the next enemy and repeat

yeah the clone really needs to be reworked so it doesn't just run off and instead attacks what you're attacking so it doesn't appeal to only afk farmers anymore

also have you invested in the staff yet or are you just going with everyone else and saying its bad? a lot of the time, things that people say are bad isn't actually as bad as they say, even the stug can be made good (no joke it actually can)

Edited Saturday at 02:36 PM by gamingchair1121
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[TKDancer]

3 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

not really, just mod corrosive/heat for armor strip, then panzer for viral and it melts through everything

that would be true for weapons with a good stance that can use acolyte mods, tho using 3 mods on elements i dont think is considered optimal for melee unless one has a really good riven that allows it to remain efficient, and exalteds cant get rivens

 

3 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

trust me it is good, even in steel path

also how is it weird that's pretty much the default build you run on those kinds of weapons

...

also you can get the drain of the staff down to 1.25 energy/sec with fleeting and streamline, then use energize and there's no way you run out of energy

its really not, its mediocre DPS, and your staff build is weird cause its a crit build without crit dmg, slotting organ shatter and either more heat or CO on top would give considerably more dmg as the reach is mostly not needed, least not 2 range mods even if the 1.0 FT doesnt mind hitting a lot of enemies, and wukong definitely doesnt want to waste mod slots on 2 efficiency mods, specially one that reduces duration, he is a health tank, unless trying to do endurance runs you're better off just slapping rage/HA for energy and either nothing else or just primed flow

 

3 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

actually it does work without the statstick, but since as wukong you use the staff, having a damaging melee is kinda pointless when you could use it to boost the staff's damage

yet the dmg will be pitiful compared to a simple generic melee build on a good melee weapon, specially one with a good stance, with equal or even less investment and that stat stick is there to try to compensate for the lack of blood rush

 

3 hours ago, gamingchair1121 said:

I do want to find some use for it but I just can't, a damage buff over it increases your damage far more than the clone would, even the augment is outclassed by gloom

yeah the clone really needs to be reworked so it doesn't just run off and instead attacks what you're attacking so it doesn't appeal to only afk farmers anymore

least we can agree that the clone needs work

[gamingchair1121]

29 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

your staff build is weird cause its a crit build without crit dmg

forgot to say I'm using 4 cd shards. I like having more range, but if you want more crit damage on it, you can put organ shatter over spring loaded blade.

29 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

wukong definitely doesnt want to waste mod slots on 2 efficiency mods, specially one that reduces duration

well theres not too much else I could have put there

also 125% duration is well over enough, cloud walker heals 1970hp/1,545hp, so a full heal, and 2.5 seconds of defy is enough to get the full 1.5k armor

29 minutes ago, TKDancer said:

yet the dmg will be pitiful compared to a simple generic melee build on a good melee weapon, specially one with a good stance, with equal or even less investment and that stat stick is there to try to compensate for the lack of blood rush

before you say how bad it is, go actually try it, it doesn't even need a primer at all, unlike a normal melee

also the statstick isn't specifically to replace blood rush, its more that I'm not using my normal melee as wukong, so why not get free damage from it

Edited Saturday at 10:43 PM by gamingchair1121
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[TKDancer]

16 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

forgot to say I'm using 4 cd shards. I like having more range, but if you want more crit damage on it, you can put organ shatter over spring loaded blade.

okay that makes way more sense then. very heavy investment tho

 

17 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

before you say how bad it is, go actually try it, it doesn't even need a primer at all, unlike a normal melee

i mean to get your results id need to invest 4 red shards, which i will not do thank you

shards should not be needed for a good reliable baseline and shards dont fix the issues with the stance itself they just make the weapon hit harder, and the staff's issues arent bad stats(tho not being a slash focused weapon is always a con), its lack of access to crucial melee mods that isnt made up for with a good stance(or a ridiculous augment like reactive storm/chromatic blade)

if i ever did invest 4 melee crit dmg shards id still get better results from a good melee weapon with an actually good stance, like a kronen prime or praedos with soverign outcast, only downsides would be the lower range and FT

 

17 minutes ago, gamingchair1121 said:

also the statstick isn't specifically to replace blood rush

but it is, if exalted weapons could use BR you would be missing out on 'free dmg' by not using it, and thats why we use gladiator stat sticks for exalted melee weapons

[gamingchair1121]

1 hour ago, TKDancer said:

okay that makes way more sense then. very heavy investment tho

 yeah a lot of my builds are high investment lol

as long as its fun though that's all that matters

1 hour ago, TKDancer said:

shards should not be needed for a good reliable baseline and shards dont fix the issues with the stance itself they just make the weapon hit harder, and the staff's issues arent bad stats(tho not being a slash focused weapon is always a con), its lack of access to crucial melee mods that isnt made up for with a good stance(or a ridiculous augment like reactive storm/chromatic blade)

well we do have primal rage, although its not nearly as strong as the other two you said

the cc it gives could scale with strength to make more incentive to mod for the staff

1 hour ago, TKDancer said:

but it is, if exalted weapons could use BR you would be missing out on 'free dmg' by not using it, and thats why we use gladiator stat sticks for exalted melee weapons

even if you could use blood rush on them, I'd still use the gladiator set because its free damage, not using your melee slot for extra damage is just wasted potential

Edited Sunday at 12:38 AM by gamingchair1121
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