It's been over 3 years. Let us use the Universal Medallion for this or get us a better solution.

[----Legacy----]

3 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Oh, and them siding with one dude making a fuss about his conclave "achievements" is literally in line with the reasoning they gave for not fixing the Hema requirements.

And that right there leads to why it was most likely decided way before that player's tweet, but people like you only see "DE siding with that player" instead and keep parroting that over and over again. 

Thanks for pointing towards DE's consistency in such decision, even though your wording still tries to keep the narrrive of DE bending to a single tweet.

5 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

And because you're just going to respond with another, you're just going on ignore.  Less annoyance for us both, I'm sure.

Awwww, your assumptions and softness will not be missed. See you!

[Binket_]

3 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

And that right there leads to why it was most likely decided way before that player's tweet

However, in a similar vein?
Everybody I've seen- if it's done by them or not- hates the Hema research.
It is a long and arduous grind for a miscellaneous resource that was found in a very specific spot.
It was hardly considered "difficult" to grab an excessive amount of that resource, it was just anything but fun.
It only pertained to a very few amount of people, those who wanted to make their own Dojos.

The Hema is only know for it's absurd requirements, similar to Sibear.
Only those with the most decorated egos really defend it.

It's only natural to desire such changes, as it's originally made from poor understanding of balance and upheld by some poor excuse to pride in both cases.

I have recently achieved Rank 5 in Conclave even.
I did it by doing dailies and weeklies through a very distant and annoying playstyle to me and others.
I stood out of the way of players and sniped anyone who was low on health.
It's hardly something I consider fun and it's less something I consider an achievement.
But it got the job- one that I would normally find even more irksome- done.

Both the Hema and Conclave are situations being far from "difficult" as it is "fun", both for their own reasons.
Yet, the reason they share is that "some small select few lose their trophies" for grinds that are frustrating to many.

[----Legacy----]

18 hours ago, Binket_ said:

Both the Hema and Conclave are situations being far from "difficult" as it is "fun", both for their own reasons.
Yet, the reason they share is that "some small select few lose their trophies" for grinds that are frustrating to many.

We can hate it all we want, but in the end it's DE's decision and they have been consistently against decisions that may trivialize player grinds while disregarding people who did them and still agree to see them toned down.

And once again, conclave rewards are purely cosmetics, so the only reason to ask for them to be made available somewhere else is pure self entitlement, unlike the Hema which has mastery progression a unique playstyle attached to it, and can also be obtained with platinum, (which makes the research cost look like a predatory strategy).

[Stormhawkaro]

En 20/3/2023 a las 23:50, Binket_ dijo:

Unless one of us missing something- which I don't how we could- this is simply in going in circles.

So let me rephrase, for one last attempt:
Conclave is a flawed mode. People can like it all they want, but to most? It remains just another content island, one of which that is filled to the brim with gaps and pitfalls.
This is because of it's inherent design being very difficult to grasp and even harder to get into reliably.
It may seem simple to a Frequent Conclave player, but trying to grasp anything without someone taking months to train them is nigh impossible.
I've given this mode a shot. I've genuinely tried to experience it in a way that is satisfying.
I've tried Cephalon Capture, I'm tried Team Deathmatch, I've tried Free-for-all and I've even tried Lunaro.
Each one has too many issues for it to be a fun experience. Assuming you can find a game within a relatively stable ping-range, of course.
If someone new finds them enjoying the experience, they are a VERY rare breed. We call these "outliers."
The gamemode is less toil and more tedium when you realize you are outmatched, everytime.

While it is technically fully possible to grind the required standing through sheer stubborn grit and just taking loss after loss, it's not a very fun way to do so and most players will realize it's become mentally taxing as a chore. Backing off and just ignoring the mode.
... and if the true grind you want to wish upon others is simply them becoming cannon fodder for months-- possibly years on end?
Just to get a fancy gun or a half-working Syandana?
Joining matches until they can finally find someone at a bigger disadvantage to take advantage of? All for a surplus bonus to a hollow goal?
That's something I cannot agree with. Simply put.

No player wants to constantly feel like they're designed to feed someone else's high score.
No player that is playing Conclave for what it's intended that is.

The good outweigh the bad of putting in the options for Universal Medallions. Beyond just a way to get Conclave standing.
The only thing I see- to this day- for it being against is that hollow sense of pride.
Where you have to suffer some arbitrary nonsense because... someone else did?
"Git gud" isn't even a valid response here to that. Yet I figured it's the first thing people think of when it comes to something PvP related.
When the odds are rigged so hard against you- be it by poor ranking systems, builds that you have no access to or just being on the wrong side of the internet connection- that getting better isn't even an option because you can't know where you even went wrong to begin with shows that the system is working against it's own self.
You have to "get good" to get rewarded, but getting good requires the rewards... but since you can't get the rewards, you're stuck having to struggle until you get lucky.
The only way out of the paradox of a system is either extreme tedium or blind luck. By no merit of the player itself.

By adding Universal Medallions, players who know some portion of the game can rank up and get some crucial mods in a way that isn't throwing themselves into some player who- for all we know- is a coinflip for being an aimbot user.
Yes, it means a select few will probably level up the Conclave without touching the mode once.
... but to the players who already play the mode? Frequently and well at that?
Not only will they get far more standing far faster, but the amount of effort to acquire that many Universal Medallions to even achieve a palpable amount can only be described as "excessive".
Which- as a result- would make Conclave itself still a far easier option to get the "exclusive reward" that are unique to that mode.

Now, can more rewards and systems be added to make the experience slightly more tolerable? Of course, absolutely it can!
We all know how DE updates things now. It won't get improved unless a relating function can be updated. ^{(Just look at Shade Prime)}
So, Universal Medallions that already have a set use, interface and rare source means that it's the perfect candidate for a solution that makes a lot of people happy with very few truly upset.

... or am I missing something else here?

I love this reply, the way it doesn't address anything from the post right above proves how all of the "strong" points waved by PvE players can be easily taken down as fallacies, which reduces them to sugarcoated self entitlement.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 3/29/2023 at 6:15 PM, Binket_ said:

However, in a similar vein?
Everybody I've seen- if it's done by them or not- hates the Hema research.
It is a long and arduous grind for a miscellaneous resource that was found in a very specific spot.
It was hardly considered "difficult" to grab an excessive amount of that resource, it was just anything but fun.
It only pertained to a very few amount of people, those who wanted to make their own Dojos.

The Hema is only know for it's absurd requirements, similar to Sibear.
Only those with the most decorated egos really defend it.

It's only natural to desire such changes, as it's originally made from poor understanding of balance and upheld by some poor excuse to pride in both cases.

I have recently achieved Rank 5 in Conclave even.
I did it by doing dailies and weeklies through a very distant and annoying playstyle to me and others.
I stood out of the way of players and sniped anyone who was low on health.
It's hardly something I consider fun and it's less something I consider an achievement.
But it got the job- one that I would normally find even more irksome- done.

Both the Hema and Conclave are situations being far from "difficult" as it is "fun", both for their own reasons.
Yet, the reason they share is that "some small select few lose their trophies" for grinds that are frustrating to many.

The person you're replying to is just going to argue in completely empty circles, defending DE's choices at any cost.  Not worth it.  Unless you just like watching the mental gymnastics.

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 3 horas, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan dijo:

The person you're replying to is just going to argue in completely empty circles, defending DE's choices at any cost.  Not worth it.  Unless you just like watching the mental gymnastics.

"The word of those who agree with me is gospel, everyone else is doing mental gymnastics"

I like this code.

[Binket_]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

The person you're replying to is just going to argue in completely empty circles, defending DE's choices at any cost.  Not worth it.  Unless you just like watching the mental gymnastics.

No, they have their own valid points in some areas.

The problem is that both sides are effectively arguing about something outside of our control.
Pointless? In some ways, some can see that.
However, unless DE makes a statement that solves both sides... it's effectively all we can do.

As it currently stands, there's nothing inherently wrong with back and forth.
Eventually something will click and new details spring forth.
Such is how discussion works.

10 hours ago, Stormhawkaro said:

the way it doesn't address anything from the post right above proves how all of the "strong" points waved by PvE players can be easily taken down as fallacies

Oh, so we're playing this card are we? ^{I'm less insulted by the accusation and more the audacity to say it with such vanity.} 
Fine, I'll humor it.

Players who are veterans at Conclave are already at an advantage, let alone accustomed to it.
If the Conclave player base wants to retain all of it's unique perks and flaws that make it what it is, very well.
Mods from this mode should not be locked behind standing.
It is anything but fun to grind the standing by being a punching bag.

As I've mentioned, players can hypothetically get the mode done without doing a single match of Conclave. That much is true.
However, the efforts to do so would be astronomical to overcome. So much so that it's arguably much faster to play the mode outright.
If you account for standing at max Mastery and the 5% drop chance those Medallions come at?
The amount needed to farm would be insane. The time gate to cash them in forces the player to take months at least.
It still provides an option. Especially one to get the player on their feet, buying equipment that lets them fight on.

It only provides a "slow burn" method of levelling it.
Be it to get standing and fight with equipment on par or simply just to obtain the few items a player desires.
It does not fully trivialize the effort done by Conclave players.
Merely that it gives something to work with in tandem.
I certainly don't feel like waiting an hour for someone to hop into Cephalon Capture after all, only for one match to end with an absolute loss.

Besides, it's fully possible for a player to play Conclave in the most boring and annoying ways possible to get their rewards.
Be it enjoyable in a malicious manner or not, it doesn't matter. It's designed to make you suffer and perform miracles.
The match was rigged from the start. It is no surprise that people have opinions on such.

Personally? I don't enjoy having to sit on the edge of maps in the very distance.
Picking off enemies with a weapon that guarantees a kill, all while staying out of sight.
Especially since I know the minute I get seen? I'm instantly dead, unsure what I can better.
Since I'm not fond of the mode and I know I am at an innate disadvantage?
I'm not going to put in any effort, since it will only give me a headache.

As I've seen so far, the only other opinions of note are:

• "They can add evergreen rewards like Kuva!"
  Which I fully agree with.
  This gives more variety in selection and encourages spending some excess standing.
  A lot of the current rewards are one-time purchases... or mods which you only need one of.
  This however won't permanently fix the system but it does benefit it.
• "Conclave has documentation."
  While true, it is very poorly done.
  The mods that were used as examples are proof of such.
  Regardless of how they're actually used in their current state, the point was that it's misleading.
• "The situation of players getting banned was because they were rude."
  Highly likely and I don't doubt it... but this is Warframe we're discussing here.
  I don't disregard the context involved with it, I can get why those cases as rebuttals were done.
  It's the knowledge that DE doesn't always look at context is especially applicable to Conclave.
• "Universal Medallions were never added/planed to be added to begin with."
  Which is frankly just twisting words.
  It was put in official DE updates that it was intended, only removed when people asked for otherwise.
  As far as history is concerned, it was only reconsidered for a specific when it was mentioned on social media.
  Ergo, it was planned. It was that it was changed last second, last second changes are often volatile in the long run.
• "You can't add something something back that was never removed to begin with."
  That's such a stupid statement. I'm going to be blunt on that, it was entirely pointless to add in good faith. ^{If any.}
  Universal Medallions are already in the game, they have associated menus for every faction. It is fully possible.
• "Other examples you've given for effort don't apply!"
  • Nezha was a Warframe that was earned by Sortie rewards.
    While it's a main part of the cast of Warframes and is applied to MR, it was extremely annoying to players to farm for.
    Mainly due to RNG. Something outside of the player's control.
    However, the point was that it was moved to Dojos.
    Which are very easily joined and even easier to just copy a simple blueprint from their reserves.
    Once you have you wanted? You leave. Making it a trivial matter compared to effort given from those originally farmed it.
     
  • Skins from events are cosmetic in nature.
    They were earned from trial and toil in a limited time event.
    While it is not exclusive to such, it does make it rather bittersweet when a rerelease gives it as filler rewards.
    Is it just? No, but I don't anyone really cared.
    It's just another objective, another "thing to do".
    We understood these skins will probably come around again at a later point.
    It's not like there's a binding contract for it or something that derives respect-- such as Founders.
     
  • Hema research is the greatest example if anything.
    There is no pride from getting the Hema research done. If anything, it's just another block on the "completion" list.
    You spend countless sessions maximizing loot on a single Infested node just to UNLOCK the ability to build a gun.
    All a player needs to do once the research is done is simply copy it. Takes absolute zero effort.
    It puts excessive grind in a place where it does not matter. All for... "effort"?
    If the reason is effort, why is it so simple to replicate?
    That makes no sense, you punish players who are playing the game and reward those that aren't?!
    The Hema itself is by no means remarkable. Weapons with unconventional ammo and/or Viral are not a rarity.
     
• "It encourages the player to play the mode!"
  Not quite. Skins by themselves are not reason enough.
  A majority of the weapon skins are generally unpopular picks and most of them also have other skins.
  Examples of low-tier picks are (Twin) Viper, Angstrum, Marelok, etc.
  Examples of other skins being Tonkor, Sybaris, Tipedo, etc.
  If people want skins, it's specifically those skins.
  Those very few players who want skins on such weapons? Not common as is and even fewer are willing to play.
  Even if they do play, they are not going to stick around.
  They are getting the skins through the dailies and weeklies like I am and dropping the mode.
  Wins or losses don't matter, it's just a to-do list being done.
  We aren't playing well, we don't care to. Nothing in Conclave will change that.
  Just like someone joining a Dojo for research. Nothing of note was done, but the outcome is the same. That being "why is it even like this?"
  Even players who enjoy the mode aren't going to have less reason to keep coming back if there's nothing to buy. Especially since they already have all of it.
  Which is just the reality of it. Evergreen rewards can address that slightly, but I'd rather do Steel Path Kuva Survival to get my Kuva.
• "Bigger issue is that it wants to be PvE related."
  Agreed on said issues from there. A lot of scuff from Conclave derives from PvE.
  However, that's loosely connected. A factor, yes... but not a major one.

But few have addressed the core issue.
Standing.
It's not hard to get when you consider dailies.
It proves nothing of the player's overall skill.
It fuels those who do join for rewards to play in the most boring ways possible.
Conclave players will stomp others with gear that requires standing, further enforcing a mentality of "I have to do this slog before I can play fair."

Universal Medallions are a remedy to this issue, but it's controversial since Conclave players have a vain trophy under threat.
The one thing they say can bring people to the Conclave is the same one that also makes people annoyed by it.

 

Buuuut if you want to address such as "adding nothing" than by all means, ignore the details.
^{I'm sure you have something great to add... any second now.}

[(XBOX)GameGhost123]

3 hours ago, Binket_ said:

No, they have their own valid points in some areas.

The problem is that both sides are effectively arguing about something outside of our control.
Pointless? In some ways, some can see that.
However, unless DE makes a statement that solves both sides... it's effectively all we can do.

As it currently stands, there's nothing inherently wrong with back and forth.
Eventually something will click and new details spring forth.
Such is how discussion works.

Oh, so we're playing this card are we? ^{I'm less insulted by the accusation and more the audacity to say it with such vanity.} 
Fine, I'll humor it.

Players who are veterans at Conclave are already at an advantage, let alone accustomed to it.
If the Conclave player base wants to retain all of it's unique perks and flaws that make it what it is, very well.
Mods from this mode should not be locked behind standing.
It is anything but fun to grind the standing by being a punching bag.

As I've mentioned, players can hypothetically get the mode done without doing a single match of Conclave. That much is true.
However, the efforts to do so would be astronomical to overcome. So much so that it's arguably much faster to play the mode outright.
If you account for standing at max Mastery and the 5% drop chance those Medallions come at?
The amount needed to farm would be insane. The time gate to cash them in forces the player to take months at least.
It still provides an option. Especially one to get the player on their feet, buying equipment that lets them fight on.

It only provides a "slow burn" method of levelling it.
Be it to get standing and fight with equipment on par or simply just to obtain the few items a player desires.
It does not fully trivialize the effort done by Conclave players.
Merely that it gives something to work with in tandem.
I certainly don't feel like waiting an hour for someone to hop into Cephalon Capture after all, only for one match to end with an absolute loss.

Besides, it's fully possible for a player to play Conclave in the most boring and annoying ways possible to get their rewards.
Be it enjoyable in a malicious manner or not, it doesn't matter. It's designed to make you suffer and perform miracles.
The match was rigged from the start. It is no surprise that people have opinions on such.

Personally? I don't enjoy having to sit on the edge of maps in the very distance.
Picking off enemies with a weapon that guarantees a kill, all while staying out of sight.
Especially since I know the minute I get seen? I'm instantly dead, unsure what I can better.
Since I'm not fond of the mode and I know I am at an innate disadvantage?
I'm not going to put in any effort, since it will only give me a headache.

As I've seen so far, the only other opinions of note are:

• "They can add evergreen rewards like Kuva!"
  Which I fully agree with.
  This gives more variety in selection and encourages spending some excess standing.
  A lot of the current rewards are one-time purchases... or mods which you only need one of.
  This however won't permanently fix the system but it does benefit it.
• "Conclave has documentation."
  While true, it is very poorly done.
  The mods that were used as examples are proof of such.
  Regardless of how they're actually used in their current state, the point was that it's misleading.
• "The situation of players getting banned was because they were rude."
  Highly likely and I don't doubt it... but this is Warframe we're discussing here.
  I don't disregard the context involved with it, I can get why those cases as rebuttals were done.
  It's the knowledge that DE doesn't always look at context is especially applicable to Conclave.
• "Universal Medallions were never added/planed to be added to begin with."
  Which is frankly just twisting words.
  It was put in official DE updates that it was intended, only removed when people asked for otherwise.
  As far as history is concerned, it was only reconsidered for a specific when it was mentioned on social media.
  Ergo, it was planned. It was that it was changed last second, last second changes are often volatile in the long run.
• "You can't add something something back that was never removed to begin with."
  That's such a stupid statement. I'm going to be blunt on that, it was entirely pointless to add in good faith. ^{If any.}
  Universal Medallions are already in the game, they have associated menus for every faction. It is fully possible.
• "Other examples you've given for effort don't apply!"
  • Nezha was a Warframe that was earned by Sortie rewards.
    While it's a main part of the cast of Warframes and is applied to MR, it was extremely annoying to players to farm for.
    Mainly due to RNG. Something outside of the player's control.
    However, the point was that it was moved to Dojos.
    Which are very easily joined and even easier to just copy a simple blueprint from their reserves.
    Once you have you wanted? You leave. Making it a trivial matter compared to effort given from those originally farmed it.
     
  • Skins from events are cosmetic in nature.
    They were earned from trial and toil in a limited time event.
    While it is not exclusive to such, it does make it rather bittersweet when a rerelease gives it as filler rewards.
    Is it just? No, but I don't anyone really cared.
    It's just another objective, another "thing to do".
    We understood these skins will probably come around again at a later point.
    It's not like there's a binding contract for it or something that derives respect-- such as Founders.
     
  • Hema research is the greatest example if anything.
    There is no pride from getting the Hema research done. If anything, it's just another block on the "completion" list.
    You spend countless sessions maximizing loot on a single Infested node just to UNLOCK the ability to build a gun.
    All a player needs to do once the research is done is simply copy it. Takes absolute zero effort.
    It puts excessive grind in a place where it does not matter. All for... "effort"?
    If the reason is effort, why is it so simple to replicate?
    That makes no sense, you punish players who are playing the game and reward those that aren't?!
    The Hema itself is by no means remarkable. Weapons with unconventional ammo and/or Viral are not a rarity.
     
• "It encourages the player to play the mode!"
  Not quite. Skins by themselves are not reason enough.
  A majority of the weapon skins are generally unpopular picks and most of them also have other skins.
  Examples of low-tier picks are (Twin) Viper, Angstrum, Marelok, etc.
  Examples of other skins being Tonkor, Sybaris, Tipedo, etc.
  If people want skins, it's specifically those skins.
  Those very few players who want skins on such weapons? Not common as is and even fewer are willing to play.
  Even if they do play, they are not going to stick around.
  They are getting the skins through the dailies and weeklies like I am and dropping the mode.
  Wins or losses don't matter, it's just a to-do list being done.
  We aren't playing well, we don't care to. Nothing in Conclave will change that.
  Just like someone joining a Dojo for research. Nothing of note was done, but the outcome is the same. That being "why is it even like this?"
  Even players who enjoy the mode aren't going to have less reason to keep coming back if there's nothing to buy. Especially since they already have all of it.
  Which is just the reality of it. Evergreen rewards can address that slightly, but I'd rather do Steel Path Kuva Survival to get my Kuva.
• "Bigger issue is that it wants to be PvE related."
  Agreed on said issues from there. A lot of scuff from Conclave derives from PvE.
  However, that's loosely connected. A factor, yes... but not a major one.

But few have addressed the core issue.
Standing.
It's not hard to get when you consider dailies.
It proves nothing of the player's overall skill.
It fuels those who do join for rewards to play in the most boring ways possible.
Conclave players will stomp others with gear that requires standing, further enforcing a mentality of "I have to do this slog before I can play fair."

Universal Medallions are a remedy to this issue, but it's controversial since Conclave players have a vain trophy under threat.
The one thing they say can bring people to the Conclave is the same one that also makes people annoyed by it.

 

Buuuut if you want to address such as "adding nothing" than by all means, ignore the details.
^{I'm sure you have something great to add... any second now.}

Pretty colors 

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 3 horas, Binket_ dijo:

Players who are veterans at Conclave are already at an advantage, let alone accustomed to it.
If the Conclave player base wants to retain all of it's unique perks and flaws that make it what it is, very well.
Mods from this mode should not be locked behind standing.
It is anything but fun to grind the standing by being a punching bag.

Was pointed in other posts that conclave players wouldn't mind to remove modding nor having all conclave available gear unlocked for everyone all the time.

Even then, most of the conclave mods can be obtained from nightwave and/or drop from sentients anyways.

So both of those together make your point moot, only leaving the "it is anything but fun to grind the standing by being a punching bag" part; an appeal to emotions fallacy.

hace 3 horas, Binket_ dijo:

The efforts to do so would be astronomical to overcome. So much so that it's arguably much faster to play the mode outright.
If you account for standing at max Mastery and the 5% drop chance those Medallions come at?
The amount needed to farm would be insane. The time gate to cash them in forces the player to take months at least.
It still provides an option. Especially one to get the player on their feet, buying equipment that lets them fight on.

Part of this argument goes hand in hand with the "removal" of universal medallions from conclave, so i think it's worth keeping in mind that DE stated that they'd look into how these affect the syndicate economy in order to make them more common and add bigger ones as well. That seems to have been "removed" too.

hace 3 horas, Binket_ dijo:

"The situation of players getting banned was because they were rude."
Highly likely and I don't doubt it... but this is Warframe we're discussing here.
I don't disregard the context involved with it, I can get why those cases as rebuttals were done.
It's the knowledge that DE doesn't always look at context is especially applicable to Conclave.

I was in several matches of players who later made posts of being banned or warned for playing conclave and always saw them harass anyone trying to play normally. 

With that out of the way, i fail to see what kind of context would justify harassing other players. You're just trying to relativize a behavior frowned upon in every competitive scene while invalidating the experience of those of us who like to play normally.

hace 3 horas, Binket_ dijo:

"Universal Medallions were never added/planed to be added to begin with."

That was never said, i'm sure it was more on the lines of conclave being the only syndicate without its own medallions which can easily lead to the 50K standing from weeklies going to waste if the inbox opens at a bad moment (fwiw, at some point i lost about 200K standing because of a message from Darvo opening the inbox to advertise amazon prime)

hace 3 horas, Binket_ dijo:

"Other examples you've given for effort don't apply!"

All of those have been debunked as false equivalences:

- Hema has MR and a unique playstyle.

- Nezha was only available through a capped single daily attempt at rng on top of having MR and a unique playstyle attached.

-The skins you mentioned (event rewards) had limited availability.

And you're comparing those to mere skins permanently available and with no gameplay value beyond saying "Hey! I played conclave and got this"

hace 3 horas, Binket_ dijo:

Hema research is the greatest example if anything.
There is no pride from getting the Hema research done. If anything, it's just another block on the "completion" list.
You spend countless sessions maximizing loot on a single Infested node just to UNLOCK the ability to build a gun.
All a player needs to do once the research is done is simply copy it. Takes absolute zero effort.
It puts excessive grind in a place where it does not matter. All for... "effort"?
If the reason is effort, why is it so simple to replicate?
That makes no sense, you punish players who are playing the game and reward those that aren't?!
The Hema itself is by no means remarkable. Weapons with unconventional ammo and/or Viral are not a rarity.

It may be trivial for players joining clans which already got it, so it seems like DE wants it as a way to value clan effort since research offers clan mastery and rank ups (Perks legit useless for anything other than saying "My clan has all possible researches")

hace 3 horas, Binket_ dijo:

Even players who enjoy the mode aren't going to have less reason to keep coming back if there's nothing to buy. Especially since they already have all of it.
Which is just the reality of it. Evergreen rewards can address that slightly, but I'd rather do Steel Path Kuva Survival to get my Kuva.

To each their own. I'd rather do conclave to get my kuva and even more since the kuva available from SP is now capped while conclave having a resource cap (132K syndicate standing) on top of daily caps could serve as a way to encourage players to get big amounts of kuva in a more time efficient way.

And you know, more players means more lobbies, which dillutes the good players who stomp on everyone else and since most of them tend to play against each other by joining through friend lists or invites (believe it or not, stomping on bad players gets old quickly and might as well play PvE for that instead) coming across them would be even more unlikely.

hace 3 horas, Binket_ dijo:

But few have addressed the core issue.
Standing.
It's not hard to get when you consider dailies.
It proves nothing of the player's overall skill.

The standing system is what allows anyone to get the rewards, only difference being how long it will take to get the expected rewards.

For skill based rewards, we'd need leaderboards (like the acquisition of skull badges back in the day, but these were more of a grind), evolving rewards (like stratos emblems) or even something that's taken away if the player fails to keep a certain ranking.

The standing system may not be perfect, but it's what allows anyone to only go up to evntually get what they want. I'm sure the issue would be actually bigger if the rewards needed skill to be obtained through a leaderboards system (for example) since this would mean you need to be amongst the X top killers of the [insert period of time] to get what you want while everyone out of said ranks gets nothing but a "try again in the future".

[Binket_]

30 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Even then, most of the conclave mods can be obtained from nightwave and/or drop from sentients anyways.

Oh, boy.
You're one of those.

A'ight, I'll just assume you're not trolling just for the sake of discussion.

Go talk to Teshin. Verify it yourself.
... and because I know you'll try anyway, go read the Wiki on "end of round" drops.
You'll see the problem very quickly.

... And while yes, a paltry few mods drop from Sentients/Nightwave...
Both of which only include ones usuable in PvE and PvP.
Thus excludes PvP-only mods. You have a lot missing.

Where do all those others come from?
Hint: I already said it.

35 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Part of this argument goes hand in hand with the "removal" of universal medallions from conclave, so i think it's worth keeping in mind that DE stated that they'd look into how these affect the syndicate economy in order to make them more common and add bigger ones as well. That seems to have been "removed" too.

Not as much as you'd think.
If a player doesn't want Universal Medallions or Conclave, than that's that.
Alternatives for entry were made. Anything else would be overstepping it.

The point here is that if you're only looking to get 1k to 10k standing-- it's perfectly feasible.
Especially since these medallions can cover the cost of Mods enough.

Rank ups? Different story.
That's where the caveat lies and where it's a little loose on the verdict we were given.

42 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

With that out of the way, i fail to see what kind of context would justify harassing other players.

This is assuming their bans are only on communication.
Perhaps for those who make it known, sure.
I wouldn't exactly call it unthinkable, mannerisms of such line up.
... but I wasn't there for it, nor do I expect to have the full picture even if I was.

Point was that I wouldn't put it past DE to look a lot of situations- be it in favor of players or not- and throw a hammer or two their way.

46 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

That was never said

March 19th 2023 at 5:08 AM Atlantic. (Convert timezone as needed)
C'mon now, you can do better than that.
... or do I need to add a trail of breadcrumbs too?
^{If it sounds like I'm being rude there, that's intentional. The source was right there. Simple Ctrl + F would've sufficed.}

49 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

Hema has MR and a unique playstyle.
Nezha was only available through a capped single daily attempt at rng on top of having MR and a unique playstyle attached.
The skins you mentioned (event rewards) had limited availability.
And you're comparing those to mere skins permanently available and with no gameplay value beyond saying "Hey! I played conclave and got this!"

It was less about MR for Hema, more to express how silly of a grind it is.
MR is a moot point when any joe schmoe can enter a Dojo, ask for a copy and leave.
They walk in, build it, level it, done.
Hurts nobody? Sure, but it doesn't justify how absurd the Mutagen Sample cost is for researching it.
... and again, Hema is not very unique. No more remarkable than an infested Burston outside of it's health-gimmick.

People grinded for Nezha. The effort was made, but still toned down.
Delegated to a Dojo research you could get at any time.
I'm not saying this was a bad thing outright... I'm asking if it was really respectful to those who earned it?
If ya asked them... they'll probably have mixed opinions.

Why are Conclave skins any more valuable than Event Skins? Is it no different than the Syndicate Armors? Ones that can be traded no less?
When you think about, both are grinds involving standing.
Both involve busy work for all but the most dedicated and those who maxed them out stopped caring once they have everything.

Hema is something we've all been asking for as bullet-points on an ever-growing list.
Nezha is just an example that proves effort isn't an excuse when the grind is unjustified. It merely reinforces the need for change.
The Event skins were an example that cosmetics- be it around forever or timed- are not exempt either.
_{I for one don't think I'm missing much by losing out on the Paracyst skin, but it got rereleased. Multiple times in fact.}
^{I can certainly say that I am perfectly fine with being able to buy the Steel Meridian Armor set off of someone. Kinda wish the Syandanas got the same treatment, really.}

1 hour ago, Stormhawkaro said:

It may be trivial for players joining clans which already got it, so it seems like DE wants it as a way to value clan effort since research offers clan mastery and rank ups (Perks legit useless for anything other than saying "My clan has all possible researches")

Precisely the point though.
Why even have these "clan perks" when all it devolves into is passive newbies walking in to get the job done.

If anything, nobody should have to do that pointless grind.
You can just join someone else's clan. No need to do it yourself.
If nobody should have to do that grind...
Why. Does. It. Exist.

A Clan is just a glorified Discord server with benefits in the form of items.
I use Discord to talk to friends, not make small chat to keep my item replicator permits.
Even if I did get kicked, I just join another.
There is no reason to make your own except if you have enough resources to and figured it's a decent time sink.

1 hour ago, Stormhawkaro said:

And you know, more players means more lobbies, which dillutes the good players who stomp on everyone else and since most of them tend to play against each other by joining through friend lists or invites (believe it or not, stomping on bad players gets old quickly and might as well play PvE for that instead) coming across them would be even more unlikely.

Assuming. They. Stay.

I wouldn't blame vets for getting tired of stomping on newbies. It's not something I'd consider a fun time either.
Hell, I find it irksome when I have to do it for standing.
I have to take that opportunity though since I might not guarantee another round.

... but it only matters if either of them stay.
If the vets keep joining each other? Yeah, I kinda guessed they would. That's not unfathomable.
Problem is that the newbies are gonna get stomped anyway if they DO run into a vet-- who are the most likely ones to join.

Fact is: Nobody is going to realistically think "Conclave is going to get an audience".
Much less retain one.

Conclave is only going to stagnate so as any new lifeblood gets torn apart like it's facing an immune system.
Viciously and ruthlessly.
Often to the point where the new audience isn't even a noticeable factor.
I'm pretty sure the only reason I can camp on the end of maps is because I seem so harmless.
^{Probably am, but that's just to my benefit.}

1 hour ago, Stormhawkaro said:

The standing system is what allows anyone to get the rewards, only difference being how long it will take to get the expected rewards.

Which only works when you account for Cosmetics or items you can get other ways.

... but it doesn't. Plenty of mods- mostly useful ones- are locked behind standing.
With a lot of important ones locked further behind Rank 3 or Rank 4.
By the point, the player is probably sick of being a punching bag. Dailies or no.

So wouldn't you know it? The standing system is holding players back.
If all the mods were available from Rank 1, fair enough.
Easily accessible without having to rank a plethora times in advance.

Personally? I think the mods should be gone outright and players can be given a small "training room" to get familiar with their kit.
^{... but I know the former has been asked before and the latter is too much to ask for apparently.}

1 hour ago, Stormhawkaro said:

For skill based rewards, we'd need leaderboards (like the acquisition of skull badges back in the day, but these were more of a grind), evolving rewards (like stratos emblems) or even something that's taken away if the player fails to keep a certain ranking.

That would probably only lead to bad actors.
... or worse, only encouraging more volatile and vehement behavior in matches.
In PvE, you can at least mitigate that since it's something everyone is involved in.
Usually a player can plan ahead or find a way to grind it out to their liking.
PvP lacks such.

[iPathos]

I've already done the grind through all five ranks of Conclave years ago, it's something I need to get back into to complete my collection.

Considering how new the system was when the ability to use Universal Medallions for Conclave was removed, I'd say it deserves reassessment. I don't particularly like the idea of people using them to exclusively rank up Conclave, but I believe that issue is self-mitigating in the drop rate for these Medallions.

It would be a nice way to augment match-based standing gains by a small amount, or if you're short of an item that you want by a couple thousand standing but you're capped for the day. The actual supply of Universal Medallions is already so limited that I believe them being usable here shouldn't have been highlighted as an issue in the first place.

Edit: regarding the medallions never actually being "added" - it was intended to be added and was cancelled due to outcry. It deserves being readdressed this far along.

[----Legacy----]

6 hours ago, Binket_ said:

"Universal Medallions were never added/planed to be added to begin with."
Which is frankly just twisting words.

43 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

March 19th 2023 at 5:08 AM Atlantic. (Convert timezone as needed)
C'mon now, you can do better than that.
... or do I need to add a trail of breadcrumbs too?
^{If it sounds like I'm being rude there, that's intentional. The source was right there. Simple Ctrl + F would've sufficed.}

On 3/19/2023 at 5:08 AM, ----Legacy---- said:

I think it's worth keeping in mind that universal medallions were never removed from conclave; these were never enabled to be used in there in the first place.

Let's talk about "just twisting words"

And yes, i'm aware DE mentioned the possibility of enabling them to be used in conclave, but then they backtracked on that and people keep believe a single player was the source for such decision.

[Tyreaus]

17 minutes ago, iPathos said:

Considering how new the system was when the ability to use Universal Medallions for Conclave was removed, I'd say it deserves reassessment. I don't particularly like the idea of people using them to exclusively rank up Conclave, but I believe that issue is self-mitigating in the drop rate for these Medallions.

This is a little off-topic, but an idea: what if Conclave tokens? Matches reward one per match and, atop redeeming tokens for standing, a certain number is required for each rank up. Besides the typical benefits—better standing gain and a solid reason to keep playing past the daily standing cap—it makes it so you could have Universal Medallions and still need at least some Conclave play for rank-ups.

[Binket_]

10 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Let's talk about "just twisting words"

On 2023-03-20 at 3:26 PM, ----Legacy---- said:

Still these were never added, so talking about a "removal" is dishonest since the only purpose of doing it is to abuse a buzzword.

I know what I said.

[iPathos]

3 minutes ago, Tyreaus said:

This is a little off-topic, but an idea: what if Conclave tokens? Matches reward one per match and, atop redeeming tokens for standing, a certain number is required for each rank up. Besides the typical benefits—better standing gain and a solid reason to keep playing past the daily standing cap—it makes it so you could have Universal Medallions and still need at least some Conclave play for rank-ups.

Oh I'd be entirely onboard with an idea like that as well. The biggest issue I have with Deimos's token system is the limits on actual standing gain, so stocking up on tokens usually ends up with a significant backlog in a very short time.

A change like this though would be a decent incentive, would help boost player progress in there and hopefully would be able to breathe a little more life into the PvP side of Warframe.

[Tyreaus]

3 minutes ago, iPathos said:

Oh I'd be entirely onboard with an idea like that as well. The biggest issue I have with Deimos's token system is the limits on actual standing gain, so stocking up on tokens usually ends up with a significant backlog in a very short time.

We could also make up for this by chucking UniMeds in end-of-match drop tables. One might backlog regular Conclave medallions, but there's plenty of syndicates and standing caps to use UniMeds on. I find a certain poeticness that the mode once excluded from UniMeds becomes the best place to get them.

_{Though that could make it a little too quick to get rep in Conclave... IDK just a thought}

[----Legacy----]

28 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

I know what I said.

I know what i said too, and never made any mention of medallions "never been planed to be added" to conclave, as you try to add in the other post.

[Binket_]

15 minutes ago, ----Legacy---- said:

I know what i said too

Kinda doubt?
A lot of your posts are edited. Usually with a reason being "typo".
^{If it were really that many typos, you'd think you'd correct on further replies, no?}

Fairly certain it was loosely mentioned at a certain post, but I can't find it now.
... kinda strange that all your posts are edited.
Having a bunch of edited posts sure doesn't make hindsight easy, does it now?

[(XBOX)GameGhost123]

On 2023-03-29 at 1:34 PM, ----Legacy---- said:

It minds my blows to see people who still think that DE bent over backwards because of a single tweet rather than having a decision already made at that point even though there's been many other times where a much bigger fuss still hasn't accomplished anything (like Hema requirements). 

Yo are you in gwanox discord or the conclave discord? If so what's your username? 

[----Legacy----]

47 minutes ago, Binket_ said:

Kinda doubt?
A lot of your posts are edited. Usually with a reason being "typo".
^{If it were really that many typos, you'd think you'd correct on further replies, no?}

Fairly certain it was loosely mentioned at a certain post, but I can't find it now.
... kinda strange that all your posts are edited.
Having a bunch of edited posts sure doesn't make hindsight easy, does it now?

Oddly enough, the post in question: 

2 hours ago, Binket_ said:

March 19th 2023 at 5:08 AM Atlantic. (Convert timezone as needed)
C'mon now, you can do better than that.
... or do I need to add a trail of breadcrumbs too?
^{If it sounds like I'm being rude there, that's intentional. The source was right there. Simple Ctrl + F would've sufficed.}

Which happens to be this one:

Has not been edited. Can check yourself at the bottom of the post.

For the ones which have been edited you can still see the date, and even how many hours ago within the same day.

So, can we have a discussion in good faith?

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

On 2023-03-31 at 3:02 AM, Stormhawkaro said:

"The word of those who agree with me is gospel, everyone else is doing mental gymnastics"

I like this code.

It's absolutely mental gymnastics when you have to readdress the same points over and over.  Discussion, debate, flat out fighting, doesn't matter.  If one side makes points, and the other side never actually addresses those points but keeps moving the argument around so that the same points have to be repeated and unanswered over and over again, then there's no actual discussion being had.  It's just someone doing cartwheels around arguments instead of engaging with them.  It's especially tiresome when the people doing the gymnastics decide that personal attacks and condescension make for a solid argument.  

There's plenty of people in here I disagree with where it doesn't devolve into me having to repeat myself while getting personally attacked.

[(XBOX)GameGhost123]

20 hours ago, iPathos said:

iPathos

Patos hai

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 7 horas, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan dijo:

It's absolutely mental gymnastics when you have to readdress the same points over and over.  Discussion, debate, flat out fighting, doesn't matter.  If one side makes points, and the other side never actually addresses those points but keeps moving the argument around so that the same points have to be repeated and unanswered over and over again, then there's no actual discussion being had.  It's just someone doing cartwheels around arguments instead of engaging with them.  It's especially tiresome when the people doing the gymnastics decide that personal attacks and condescension make for a solid argument.  

You're entirely biased towards the side you agree with (a natural thing) and claim that everyone on the other side is doing "mental gymnastics" because of said bias, even though the only one repeating points already addressed and taken down in is Binket_ (TC).

It even reached the point where they tried to install doubt on the other side by mentioning that posts are edited, made a snarky remark about the reason for it and conveniently omitted that date for edits remains visible and since all edits are shown in the same day (the one edit were you can still see edit hour was 1 hour before Binket's response to it) so there's no chance for any of those posts to have been edited in a malicious way later down the road in an attempt to make TC look bad as they try to install.

[Binket_]

14 minutes ago, Stormhawkaro said:

even though the only one repeating points already addressed and taken down in is Binket_

tried to install doubt on the other side by mentioning that posts are edited, made a snarky remark about the reason for it and conveniently omitted that date for edits remains visible

I mean, at this point?
I'm mostly tired of having to repeat said points.
Namely because- again- the only real points I've seen are:

• "We want to force players to play Conclave", which was argued against because all that's doing is pushing more players away.
• "Better ways to make rewards" which- while true- has very little sway on Universal Medallions being off the table.
• "It was removed by DE and their decision is final" and if that's the case, why would there even be a feedback section let alone forums at all?
• "It's only the incentive to play Conclave" and it's the only reason people slog along through the weeklies and dailies.
  Participating in it by the bare minimum. That isn't a reason to stay, that's a reason to grind it like Defection or Fortuna.
• "Cosmetics have no gameplay use" but yet the mods are exempt? I know we said we'd love to play without 'em-- but that's a lot more work to ask for than adding a small rare trinket to work with.

So unless I'm mistaken, is there an actual genuine reason against it or am I just having to address the elephant in the room until we grow a pair of neuroptics?

 

... Also, the edits were because I was genuinely unsure. It's not like I can check them before they were edited anymore, right?
Like I said, a bit odd to edit every single one-- no?

 

Though, on a somewhat related note...
I just had a chat this morning with someone in the Conclave itself. Completely random player who seemed to be frequent/vet.
They absolutely agree that this whole fiasco of standing is utterly absurd to exist, but they did remind me one thing that I overlooked:

The Universal Medallion is a Lunaro Ball.
Not too relevant, sure... but out of all the possible icons to use... why a Lunaro Ball?
I mean, we can speculate until the Infested learn how to cook fine dining.
... but I think it's safe to say a likely explanation is that it was intended for Conclave to begin with.
^{But hey, what would I know? I'm just getting tired of this whole debacle as much as I'm getting tired of Conclave. With a resounding "Can we get on with it already?".}

[Stormhawkaro]

hace 13 minutos, Binket_ dijo:

So unless I'm mistaken, is there an actual genuine reason against it or am I just having to address the elephant in the room until we grow a pair of neuroptics?

The reason is simple:

1) The mode is a content island due to PvE player demands from back when the rework was announced since they didn't want to be <<<forced>>> into PvP gameplay.

2) Because of that, DE made all of the PvP rewards either useless (cosmetics) or pointless out of the conclave (mods)

3)People playing a grind heavy game are less likely to engage in a content island without useful rewards: "Why would i grind for useless things when i could be getting some useful instead through PvE gameplay"

4) People seem to want warframe PvE to become as easy as an idle game, PvP is bound to be the polar opposite.

But then whenever attempts are made to move the current statu quo, responses are the same:

1) PvE players want to keep conclave entirely isolated from the rest of the game, sometimes even suggesting to give it its own launcher BUT they also want PvP rewards being made available without the need to play PvP.

2) Those same players argue endlessly against any possible addition of good rewards to conclave.

3) People refuse to add value to PvP even if just as a way to alleviate other PvE related grinds (a progression system like conclave would be neat, and goes in the same line as what DE has done with the Voruna and Citrine grinds)

4) Whenever DE adds anything mildly challenging to PvE, people get up in arms against it; in the same vein, they always come here asking for pvp "improvements" that aim towards making PvP easier even though in the not so long term those same changes would make the mode even more detached from PvE (PvP exclusive stamina bar, remove parkour, etc) on top of killing what its current playerbase already likes.

Of course, we gotta find middle points for something to be made. But even when consensus is met, lack of dev engagement (the biggest wall) keeps everything unchanged. The salt of PvE players when PvP is mentioned in patch notes doesn't help either.

hace 34 minutos, Binket_ dijo:

... Also, the edits were because I was genuinely unsure. It's not like I can check them before they were edited anymore, right?
Like I said, a bit odd to edit every single one-- no?

Checked myself and the relevant one pointed by yourself was not edited. And as someone who posts mostly from mobile while playing conclave, it's really easy to make mistakes that can entirely change the meaning of a sentence and due to small screen size it's easy for those to go unnoticed until after the post is made public.

So no, it's not odd in the slightest, it shows that the person tries to get the point across as clearly as possible and only someone with malicious intent themselves would be able to see malicious intent in something like that.

Claiming that it's every single post, even though the relevant one pointed by yourself has not been edited, shows malicious intent and doesn't need a late edit for that.

hace 39 minutos, Binket_ dijo:

The Universal Medallion is a Lunaro Ball.
Not too relevant, sure... but out of all the possible icons to use... why a Lunaro Ball?

That argument is pure nonsense.

Want to know what else is a Lunaro ball?

Lua.

If you look not so carefully, turns out Lua's 3D model (can be seen in the startchart and a big 3d version of it can be found in some tiles of... you guess right: Lua) is the exact same as the Lunaro ball. Hell, the 4 first characters of Lunaro spell "Luna", the latin word for "Moon", the same moon that was hidden by the Lotus and appears in game... under the name of Lua and was added as a playable planet in the game way before Lunaro was a thing.