A notice about Citrine's 3

[AreeSoothsayer]

I've wondered off and on. Is that buff a % buff like a mod gives or is it static?

So I tested it out. <..<

 

 

[-Krism-]

I don't really understand what I'm supposed to look at

[AreeSoothsayer]

1 minute ago, -Krism- said:

I don't really understand what I'm supposed to look at

I had it on auto. 1% chance to status proc. 350% of 1% would be 4.5% chance to proc. Two stacks of Gas immediately went up and stayed refreshed until I stopped firing. That gun had 351% status chance.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 16 minutes, AreeSoothsayer a dit :

I had it on auto. 1% chance to status proc. 350% of 1% would be 4.5% chance to proc. Two stacks of Gas immediately went up and stayed refreshed until I stopped firing. That gun had 351% status chance.

Are you saying the gun currently have 351% status chance with the buff or should have that amount ?
Looking at the video, nothing seems wrong so I'm not sure.

[Tiltskillet]

39 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Are you saying the gun currently have 351% status chance with the buff or should have that amount ?
Looking at the video, nothing seems wrong so I'm not sure.

It looks like they're just confirming the wiki's information that the Gem's status% buff is additive to status mod%.  It's hard to make out in the video, but I just tested it to be sure.

[Birdframe_Prime]

5 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

Are you saying the gun currently have 351% status chance with the buff or should have that amount ?
Looking at the video, nothing seems wrong so I'm not sure.

From the test, the ability should grant 350% status chance using OP's statement (although seeing their build would be good to prove that).

The Cedo's auto-fire has a 1.1% chance per shot, and a default pellet count of 6, meaning 0.3% chance per pellet. Using defaults with the fire rate of 3.83 this would average out at less than 4% chance of inflicting a status, any status, per second.

OP's test was to see if the 350% was flat additive, or modded multiplicative. Modded would give you a status of 3.85% per shot, or just 0.64% per pellet. Which would be functionally no different to the base.

If it was additive, however, the Status chance would become 351.1% chance per shot, or 58.52% per pellet, meaning that the average would be that at least one Status would be inflicted every shot, and not inflicting a single one would be incredibly unlikely.

The fact that the target took 2 Gas procs immediately means that the Ability is Additive.

Now, while this is powerful on shotguns, think about that for weapons that don't have base multi-shot. In that case, the single shot itself would have the boosted Status chance (at minimum 350% with the OP's build), able to proc multiple Status effects from a single shot, and then add on duplicates from multi-shot. Ramping up Galvanised Diffusion, for example, would mean that you could get four or more times the effect, piling something like Heat and Viral into an enemy from the very first bullet.

It's... kind of good to think about if you want an alternative to Hunter Munitions on your high crit/low status weapons.

[Tiltskillet]

56 minutes ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The fact that the target took 2 Gas procs immediately means that the Ability is Additive.

It's odd, but I think this was just luck.   The fact that he kept on shooting and got no more gas procs is some evidence of that.

My video recording software isn't working, but my test was with a Cedo modded for 6 pellets, 0.3% status, 390 magnetic and 240 heat.  Gem was at a 327% status bonus.   Gas and magnetic procs were rare, and multiple procs especially so.

I just repeated this with a Euphona modded the same basic way to remove the pellet/multi factor completely.  Same results.  Really difficult to get anything but the four basic elemental procs which are inflicted directly by the Gem's beams.

edit:

To be clear to everybody, I'm saying Gem's bonus percentage is added to status mod percentage to find the total bonus percentage.  327% from Gem and 60% from a 60/60 mod = 387%.  That's the bonus to the weapon's base status chance.  Euphona has 2%, so its total status chance would be

02 * ( 1 + 3.27 + 0.60) = 0.0974 = 9.74% 

Which appears accurate to the test. 

tl;dr, Prismatic Gem's weapon status bonus  is not a sneaky way to get great status chance out of extremely low status chance projectiles.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

My indifferent brain: "ah! great more status chance so i can pew pew better"

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, AreeSoothsayer said:

I had it on auto. 1% chance to status proc. 350% of 1% would be 4.5% chance to proc. Two stacks of Gas immediately went up and stayed refreshed until I stopped firing. That gun had 351% status chance.

So let's get this straight. You fire 30 shots (that's about 396 pellets at 13.2 multishot) and got 2 procs. You then conclude the gun has 351% status chance, i.e. that Prismatic Gem is additive to base stats.

Your logic is terrible. Like man, you hit it out of the park for leaps in logic.

So let's do some quick math. Cedo has a base 2% status chance, divided by the base multishot of 6 for a per pellet value of 0.33% SC. You have +225% SC from mods, so the SC per pellet before Prismatic Gem would be 2 x (1 + 2.25) / 6 = 1.083%.

If Prismatic Gem was additive to base values, each pellet would have [2 x (1 + 2.25) + 350] / 6 = 59.5% SC per pellet
You have 13.2 multishot, so the expected amount of status per shot is 59.5% x 13.2 = ~7.8 statuses
Over 30 shots fired. that's an expected status output of 7.8 x 30 = 234 procs.

If Prismatic Gem was additive to mods, each pellet would have 2 x (1 + 2.25+3.5) / 6 = 2.25% SC per pellet
You have 13.2 multishot, so the expected amount of status per shot is 2.25% x 13.2 = 0.33 statuses
Over 30 shots fired, that's an expected status output of 0.33 x 30 = 9.9 procs.

You didn't even come close to 10 procs. Let's repeat that. You did not even come close to the lesser value. You got less than 1% of the expected procs according to your hypothesis of how Prismatic Gem's buff works.

  

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The fact that the target took 2 Gas procs immediately means that the Ability is Additive.

Now, while this is powerful on shotguns, think about that for weapons that don't have base multi-shot. In that case, the single shot itself would have the boosted Status chance (at minimum 350% with the OP's build), able to proc multiple Status effects from a single shot, and then add on duplicates from multi-shot. Ramping up Galvanised Diffusion, for example, would mean that you could get four or more times the effect, piling something like Heat and Viral into an enemy from the very first bullet.

It's... kind of good to think about if you want an alternative to Hunter Munitions on your high crit/low status weapons.

lmao. Did you even think about the stats at all on this.

[lukinu_u]

 

il y a une heure, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

The Cedo's auto-fire has a 1.1% chance per shot, and a default pellet count of 6, meaning 0.3% chance per pellet. Using defaults with the fire rate of 3.83 this would average out at less than 4% chance of inflicting a status, any status, per second.

If it was additive, however, the Status chance would become 351.1% chance per shot, or 58.52% per pellet, meaning that the average would be that at least one Status would be inflicted every shot, and not inflicting a single one would be incredibly unlikely.

The Cedo don't have a default 1.1% status chance, this is just the modded total (the default being 0.3%), so an additive +360% would be 361.1% per pellet.

 

 

il y a une heure, Birdframe_Prime a dit :

The fact that the target took 2 Gas procs immediately means that the Ability is Additive.

This was just luck, and the next few shots not triggering status proved it.
If it was additive and each pellet had that 351.1% status chance, all shots would have trigged multiple status, which is clearly not the case here.

[AreeSoothsayer]

17 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

 

The Cedo don't have a default 1.1% status chance, this is just the modded total (the default being 0.3%), so an additive +360% would be 361.1% per pellet.

 

 

This was just luck, and the next few shots not triggering status proved it.
If it was additive and each pellet had that 351.1% status chance, all shots would have trigged multiple status, which is clearly not the case here.

I just watched the video off of youtube instead of the video I took. You can't see the proc symbols at all. So just test it yourself while I try to get a decent video to switch the mess up there because those 2 procs are all ambulas will let you have.

[AreeSoothsayer]

Okay, put up a new video link and used a simpler gun to show the stuff. Fire, Ice, Lightning, Toxin status is the crystal which will shoot anything you do if you are inside the buff ring. That was surprising.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, AreeSoothsayer said:

Okay, put up a new video link and used a simpler gun to show the stuff. Fire, Ice, Lightning, Toxin status is the crystal which will shoot anything you do if you are inside the buff ring. That was surprising.

The wiki's not infallible, but it's really good for catching most stuff like that within about a week after a new frame is released.

[AreeSoothsayer]

4 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

The wiki's not infallible, but it's really good for catching most stuff like that within about a week after a new frame is released.

Yes. I wonder how many people look up a Warframe a week after it comes out if they've already looked it up though. So I thought I would share something I found out because... I'm one of those people. XD

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2023-03-24 at 7:55 PM, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

So let's get this straight. You fire 30 shots (that's about 396 pellets at 13.2 multishot) and got 2 procs. You then conclude the gun has 351% status chance, i.e. that Prismatic Gem is additive to base stats.

The target of the original video, Ambulas, can only get 2 procs of Gas. Or did you forget?

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The target of the original video, Ambulas, can only get 2 procs of Gas. Or did you forget?

Consider checking your brain, then actually try thinking and verifying stuff before spouting nonsense.

Unless of course, by 2 procs you actually mean 10 procs.

Shame that it takes all of 30 seconds to see that you're wrong.

[AreeSoothsayer]

4 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Consider checking your brain, then actually try thinking and verifying stuff before spouting nonsense.

Unless of course, by 2 procs you actually mean 10 procs.

Shame that it takes all of 30 seconds to see that you're wrong.

Or, my Ambulace was bugged since I couldn't get more than 2 stacks of gas on him no matter what I tried I figured he was resistance to status since the gem never proc'd Fire, Ice, Toxin, or Lightning.

But go ahead and keep being mean. I'm sure that makes your life so happy.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

57 minutes ago, AreeSoothsayer said:

Or, my Ambulace was bugged since I couldn't get more than 2 stacks of gas on him no matter what I tried I figured he was resistance to status since the gem never proc'd Fire, Ice, Toxin, or Lightning.

No, your Ambulas isn't bugged, you just failed to account for particular interactions. Ambulas can't be procced by shooting its gun/rear console, or shooting an undestroyed armor part while its shields are down. Ambulas does takes status procs from shooting an undestroyed armor part while shields are up, or by shooting a destroyed armor piece. Prismatic Gem happens to target Ambulas's gun, hence the lack of procs from it. This is from some simple perfunctory testing done in <10 min.

The fact that you where getting no procs from Prismatic Gem should have been a red flag you had an unaccounted for variable. This is why you run multiple tests with different scenarios to make sure your test results aren't being skewed by an unknown variable.
Furthermore, you realized that you where having issues getting multiple procs on Ambulas. How is your test supposed to prove that your gun has an extreme level of status chance if you can't observe the target getting extreme amounts of status? You could have even observed that none of your shots where even getting a proc symbol. Even if an enemy has a proc cap, a shot that procs will still show the symbol of what it procced. This was another red flag.

The takeaway should be that you need to think more deeply about how your test is set up before making any claims about what your test supposedly proves.

[AreeSoothsayer]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

No, your Ambulas isn't bugged, you just failed to account for particular interactions. Ambulas can't be procced by shooting its gun/rear console, or shooting an undestroyed armor part while its shields are down. Ambulas does takes status procs from shooting an undestroyed armor part while shields are up, or by shooting a destroyed armor piece. Prismatic Gem happens to target Ambulas's gun, hence the lack of procs from it. This is from some simple perfunctory testing done in <10 min.

The fact that you where getting no procs from Prismatic Gem should have been a red flag you had an unaccounted for variable. This is why you run multiple tests with different scenarios to make sure your test results aren't being skewed by an unknown variable.
Furthermore, you realized that you where having issues getting multiple procs on Ambulas. How is your test supposed to prove that your gun has an extreme level of status chance if you can't observe the target getting extreme amounts of status? You could have even observed that none of your shots where even getting a proc symbol. Even if an enemy has a proc cap, a shot that procs will still show the symbol of what it procced. This was another red flag.

The takeaway should be that you need to think more deeply about how your test is set up before making any claims about what your test supposedly proves.

Point.

That's why when I needed a clear video I changed the enemy to something simpler since I couldn't figure out what was up with Ambulace.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

So from the video, I'm assuming it's additive and therefore using the ability  gives guaranteed procs?

[Tiltskillet]

22 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

So from the video, I'm assuming it's additive and therefore using the ability  gives guaranteed procs?

It depends, but assuming you're talking about Prismatic Gem's weapon status bonus, not in the way you mean. 

"Additive" is a tricky word here, because it gets used in different ways.  Gem's bonus percentage is additive with status percentage bonuses from mods.  To explain,  if you're getting 100% from the Gem bonus and 60% from a 60% mod, the total bonus is 160%.  That modifies the base status chance of a weapon to find the total status chance. 

base * ( 1 +1.6 ) = total. 

For example, 10 * ( 1 + 1.6 ) = 26% status.

What Gem's bonus isn't is additive with total status chance, adding the 100% chance directly to the weapons modded status chance.    IOW, what Avenger does with crit chance. 

Not ( 10 * ( 1 + 0.6 )) + 100 = 116% .

 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

It depends, but assuming you're talking about Prismatic Gem's weapon status bonus, not in the way you mean. 

"Additive" is a tricky word here, because it gets used in different ways.  Gem's bonus percentage is additive with status percentage bonuses from mods.  To explain,  if you're getting 100% from the Gem bonus and 60% from a 60% mod, the total bonus is 160%.  That modifies the base status chance of a weapon to find the total status chance. 

base * ( 1 +1.6 ) = total. 

For example, 10 * ( 1 + 1.6 ) = 26% status.

What Gem's bonus isn't is additive with total status chance, adding the 100% chance directly to the weapons modded status chance.    IOW, what Avenger does with crit chance. 

Not ( 10 * ( 1 + 0.6 )) + 100 = 116% .

 

Ah ok, so basically the complete opposite of Citrine's 4th ability.

[Tiltskillet]

21 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Ah ok, so basically the complete opposite of Citrine's 4th ability.

In the sense that shooting her 4th's crystals guarantees crits regardless of how bad a crit weapon you're using, yeah.  (But according to the wiki it locks crit chance to 300% rather than being additive to anything.  So as far as the math goes, it's not like Prismatic Gem or Avenger.  It's like Smeeta Charm.)