Jump to content
Dante Unbound: Share Bug Reports and Feedback Here! ×

Evidence Of Why Ash Needs A REVISIT


(PSN)Vexx757
 Share

Recommended Posts

Note: Hold ctrl and F to view the the following sections;

Issues

Stats

Look/try for yourself

The Ultimate Revisit

 

I have played warframe since Excalibur Prime was able to be purchase at the time so I have played for a long time (my operation scores shows this) and Ash is my main frame. I play him 24% of the time and have a lot of hours with him.

Spoiler

###1 by Aaronj-c

 

And as much as I like Ash there is an unfortunate truth about him...

Ash need a revisit.

So in this post I'm going to show factual evidence of the issues he has, the stats about Ash, thing you can go do to confirm his issues and a revisit that not only fixes the issues he has but improves is overall gameplay by adding new things to make him what he is... A Ninja.

 

Issues

Shuriken

  • Shuriken is only good with its augment, an augment is meant to be used as an option and not to make the ability better, which means on its own it`s not worth using.
  • Because of the way bladestorm works, it makes it redundant due to bs doing more damage and costing less energy.
  • If there are 3 enemies in front of you and you want to kill the one in the right, sometimes it will target the other two enemies instead of the one you want even if you`re aiming at it.
Spoiler

# Ash - shuriken aim by Aaronj-c

  • The only way it will be affective is if you spam the ability however you will lose out on energy doing so plus you can`t control what enemy you want it to hit and (in other ppl`s eyes) why do that when you can use bs? There is no distinction between the two.

 

Smoke Screen

  • The duration of it is low and even though I don`t have any issue with it I understand why other ppl would (this is an issues depending on who you speak to).

 

Teleport

  • When teleporting to enemies it`s not consistent in opening them up to finishers.
Spoiler

 

  • People use it`s augment as a bandade coz the bug which means the ability on its own is bad.
  • On consoles it`s changed to where the finisher prompt is separate from the melee button which makes it which kind of brakes the flow of it.
  • There are times where if a enemy is running and you teleport to them, you will be about 2-3m of space between you and the enemy you teleported to which makes you have to run to them to prompted the finisher.
  • If a enemy is under a stun, it can`t interrupt it to be able to open them up to a finisher.
Spoiler

# Ash - inconsistent teleport 1 by Aaronj-c

# Ash - inconsistent teleport 2 by Aaronj-c

# Ash - 3rd cant overide stagger by Aaronj-c

 

 

 

Bladestorm… so many issues

Spoiler
  • The two stages of the killing process make bs slow, because of this, other players can take his kills before you get a chance to kill them which makes him not helpful in the team, not fun to play and in a fast-pasted game this is bad.
  • Marking enemies for some players is sickening because of the motion of moving the cursor onto enemies, even though it`s easier (but still a problem) to do this using a mouse, doing this on a controller is not as easy, an ability should be able to be easy to use no matter what you use.
  • Because enemies are highlighted by your chosen energy colour, it will make enemies more visible to other players to go and kill them which in their minds is a top priority.
  • Bodies disappearing makes it to where you can`t bring him in a desecrating team with a nekros. While bodies disappearing makes sense on paper for him being a ninja and I like the idea, unfortunately, this just makes him a problem in that team.
  • The indicator shows how many marks instead of how many enemies affected by bs. Because of this, you have no idea how many enemies are going to be killed. If it showed how many enemies affected by bs, it will let the play know when to use bs again.
  • Using your 2nd ability to use less energy is not synergy. Synergy is meant to be a choice that makes a difference in missions however, this so-called synergy is a must to use it consistently which makes it a bad gimmick.
  • Because of the synergy between his 2nd & 4th ability, you are forced to mod for duration to benefit from using less energy for bs since most people are not going to use bs while it`s taking more energy.
  • Using the 3rd ability to join the animation costs no energy but you need energy to be able to use it which makes no sense plus, in low-level missions, sometimes you`re not even going to get a chance use your 3rd ability because the apparitions have killed the enemies already. (depending on how many enemies you mark)
  • Apparitions (clones) appearance is not consistent. The visuals go from looking like you custom coloured Ash to a hologram version, to the original ash look with default colours. Also, this is a bug that the old bs had which means it has not been fixed.
Spoiler

 

  • When marking, you can`t mark enemies that are behind walls or objects which make you have to run around searching for enemies to kill and if you in a team, your marked enemies will be killed off by your teammates.
  • Even if Ash`s damage has increased to 2,000, (his damage now is still great) the damage is not as good compared to the old bs. The apparitions of the old bs was like Saryn`s 1st ability damage but slightly better, (and the terminator) the apparitions would not stop killing until the enemies were dead and even though attack speed mods can increase their killing speed, with the current bs, the apparitions only attack three times however the bleeding damage speed cannot.
  • Because of the way it works, it makes shuriken not favoured in use due to the amount of energy bs costs when modding and how much damage it does and how quick enemies will be killed when activated. This make some people use bs over shuriken.
  • Because the bodies disappear instantly when killed Nekros can desecrate the bodies consistently.
  • The marking mechanic makes the ability ineffective in close-quarter, tight spaces which is what  the majority of the tilesets are, this makes the ability less effective and mostly useless even more so it a team.
  • If you have a sentinel and you are using bladestorm while in the animation, it and the pick-ups get in the way while watching the animation.
Spoiler

#Ash bs drops in the way by Aaronj-c

  • You can`t pick and choose what enemies you want to kill; (which people claim you can do) on paper it makes sense however in practise the idea is not useful. For example, if you wanted to mark an energy eximus in-between two other enemies and you only have enough energy to mark one enemy, you are not able to.

Reasons;

  • Enemies are running around to where you will either run out of energy or you simply can`t mark the eximus.
  • You will have to stand there trying to mark that one enemy.
  • You have a chance to get hit by a stray bullet or by an explosion whether you use your 2nd ability or not.
  • If you’re playing in a team, someone WILL take the kill from you.
  • Teleport can do it better and is faster at it. (this alone destroys the purpose of using it that way)

 

 

Stats

Here are some stats about Ash.

Spoiler

13lrc0vw80t51.png?width=1802&format=png&auto=webp&s=af4c8145831ec19813f6828c90f296bbf4bbf70b

This shows the warframes that are subsumed the most, as you can see Ash`s Shuriken is 4th because once again his augment seeking shuriken.

 

Spoiler

cpw92rv190t51.png?width=1486&format=png&auto=webp&s=b1bfa29abf1e509f936727bbb6f32cc455db5475

This shows the abilities that are infused the most used (which also means used the most) Ash`s shuriken is called "glaive" and is the 19th ability on the list however the reason it`s on the list as I said before is not of the ability itself but because of it`s augment (seeking shuriken) which means if it wasn`t for the augment it wouldn`t even be on the list which shows the issue of the ability.

 

Spoiler

jzuvgoi790t51.png?width=1482&format=png&auto=webp&s=c6d7e54ccc1f79a29f962ee1ca97d392f4d33315

This shows the warframe abilities that are replaced the most. As you can see Ash`s 1st is within the top 10 which says a lot and his 4th is 22nd on this list, again it`s the marking mechanic that is the reason why it even on here.

 

And the last one that ultimately proves my point...

Spoiler

hlv1zuac90t51.png?width=1636&format=png&auto=webp&s=a04d9add85e5914d7234dd53ecf3606982eac06d

This shows the most replaced abilities. As you can see his 1st is the most replaced coz without it`s augment, ppl aren’t using it.

The second replaced is his 4th, which to me is no surprise. Despite it doing 2,000 damage at base, doing slash damage, true damage and can be increased by the combo multi it`s second, if an ability can do all that there is no way in heck it should be so high, why is it so high? It`s simple because of the marking mechanic.

Just to note: DE also released Atlas and Chroma`s stats alongside Ash.

 

 

Even though I don`t really care about the helminth system that much, one thing I like about it is that it shows how ppl feel about warframe abilities and what abilities/frames need another lookover and Ash needs it. No matter what ppl say actions speak louder than words.

 

At the time ash was ranked the number #1 favourite warframe by votes on Mogamu`s channel in 2016. Two years later, he is one of the least played warframe stated by DE themselves on life of rio`s video in 2018.

 

Mogamu & Life of Rio

Spoiler

 

 

 

And the time of Mogamu`s video was before the "revisit" Ash was both popular online and in-game.

 

Two years later…

Spoiler

scvtkz3q90t51.png?width=1181&format=png&auto=webp&s=500e3cf3964a27f47ddfbe5ec8960894bee29bac

8c145y7s90t51.png?width=1174&format=png&auto=webp&s=33763bfd8c37623403592b335e075656734707cb

 

 

Look/try for yourself

I`m not going to say that I have seen every video on Ash but if you search on YouTube for Ash videos, you won`t find any videos of ppl playing him in a team and staying with that team using bs. In fact, there is one youtuber that`s done just that and despite what he says his video shown the opposite.

 

Go to these time points in the video. I know I`m starting in the mid of the video but it will make sense as you read on. This is him testing bs in the simulacrum.

Spoiler

7:00- 7:15: You notice how excited he get that he killed them all? Yh but you`re by yourself killing.

Here he is using bs in public.

2:44 – 2:55: It does matter when the point is to kill them but you can coz allies killed them off.

2:55- 3:04: What you saying doesn`t match what we are seeing. (pay attention to what he says vs what he`s showing)

4:18: He say he only targeted 2 enemies but the footage shows he marked more than that. Do I need to say why?

4:37: He`s on pc look how fast he`s moving his mouse all that for 1 enemy.

5:29- 5:36: Yes, it sounds good... ON PAPER, but in a co-op game in public in practise not so much

 

 

 

I believe this is why ppl don`t show footage of Ash in a team, because that footage will prove the issues that Ash has. Peoples reviews and showings of Ash`s bs is in the simulacrum BY THEMSELFS.

 

Here is a comment from someone in the comment section on youtube that I copied and pasted from. This person is able to see the issues Ash has. Very good analysis.

Spoiler

The marking mechanic is fun for awhile, but after playing for like 5 days you'll learn that its such an obnoxious mechanic especially running high level missions with never ending enemies, yeah good luck marking all of them OR trying to pick your targets, the marking mechanic becomes sloppy and unreliable. You waste so much time on marking enemies while your squad mates just farts and kill all the enemies around you. You cant mark enemies behind walls or hidden places yet you know they are there because your radar shows it in red dots, its so annoying. Play style now changes to just quickly swiping your mouse left and right to efficiently mark as many enemies as you can with 3 marks per enemy... try playing like that for 20 mins. so fun.

At the end of the day you start thinking, why should i use BS when you have other BETTER means to dispatch groups of enemies? like just using your Zarr, aim and shoot. done. lol Zarr even have a secondary function that shoots like a shot gun, so this rifle is able to dish out a good AoE damage AND close quarter killing, a more faster and efficient weapon than an Ultimate...

Ash is the only Warframe in the game that has a two step activation Ultimate. Every other Warframe's Ultimate are instant. Banshee, Saryn, Mag, Frost, Loki, Mesa etc doesnt matter, the Ultimate is done in a fast manner*, no other Warframe needs to "aim" or "mark" their targets****. Imagine Ember's WoF needs to mark her targets first THEN the fires will burn em. or Frost, Saryn or Mag needs to mark their targets in order to freeze, poison or crush them. hahaha Loki's Irradiated Disarm, Mark your targets first THEN disarm them... yeah in a fast paced game like Warframe it just doesnt work.

The simple solution to BS is just reverting it back to the old mechanic but increase the energy use for BS in increments so that BS cant be spammed (but used as a well placed calculated attack) and allies are able to kill Ash's marked enemies (and perhaps gain some bonus buff from it). Thats it. problem solved. Yet... we got THIS rework (nerf). similar to the sentinel vacuum scenario, 1 simple way to solve a problem but DE gave us the most convoluted way imaginable as their solution. So no, Bladestorm is not a good change at all. Its the worst Warframe rework to date.

Its funny how "ooh ASH is too OP please nerf him DE" and guess what? DE listened, yet you have this Warframe that is able to HEAL AND GIVE ENERGY to ALL WARFRAMES and even after several reworks, Trinity is still a powerful frame because inherently, she is the master of 2 of the most important mechanics in the game that is HP and ENERGY....sure thats not OP. whats so wrong about Ash killing 17 enemies?

 

Go and do a normal Earth defence mission with a team and use bs, to a place where damage doesn’t matter to where even Nekros`s 1st ability can kill them and you will see what will happen to you, better yet try doing it by yourself and see how long it takes you to complete it. Imo warframe abilities (damage abilities) should be usable no matter where you go e.g. Nezha`s 2nd ability.

 

Here is a video which shows that he can`t kill level six enemies with another player because of the marking mechanic.

Let’s go into detail what we see in the footage.

Spoiler
  • When Oberon cast his 4th Ash get two out of six kills.
  • You will see the bs indicator going from six marks down to two marks due to Oberon.
  • You will see that I activated bs (the 2nd part of bs`s activation) before Oberon put his hand down in his animation and he still killed more than me, If I activated the marking and Oberon activated his 4 at the same time Oberon would have probably taken all of my kills due to quick activation.
  • If you look at the clone that looks like my Ash, you will notice that it didn`t even finish the killing animation move coz Oberon slammed the enemy 1st but somehow the clone was able to kill it.
  • You also see the inconsistencies with the clone`s appearance, one looks like my customised Ash while the other looks like a hologram.

 

This makes no sense, he can deal over 2,000 damage but he can`t kill level 6 enemies in a team (or with someone), the way bs is now it only can be used in high level missions and open spaces vs old bs where it can be used anywhere and at any level. If you`re still not convinced after all this just go do a defence mission on Earth with a team and you will see what happens with the amount of kills you will get.

I said it once and i`ll say it again, the marking mechanic should never be tied to damage EVER! and if the marking mechanic was given to Saryn, Ember, Equinox, Banshee and Mesa`s 4th NO ONE WOULD USE THEM ANYMORE which proves why it`s bad on Ash.

And the part you have been waiting for...

 

 

 The Ultimate Revisit

Ash bs 4 by Aaronj-c

So I have established the issues Ash has with evidence I have presented now we need to come with a solution that addresses his issues.

These improves are based on his current issues, the issues from the people I have spoken to over the years and how I think Ash`s abilities should work.

 

Here`s is the goal of what my improvements will do to Ash overall:

  • These improvements to Shuriken with turn seeking shuriken into an option instead of a requirement and make it useful on its own.
  • Smoke Screen will be more diverse, not only turning it into a strategic ability but making it the centre point to help his other abilities.
  • It will fully realise the maximum potential the concept of teleportation and how it`s suppose to work.
  • This will make Bladestorm quick, efficient, useful, fulfil the concept of a edgy Ninja Assassin to take out the T to just make it Ash.
  • Give his abilities actual synergy that improves his gameplay performance.

All together these improvements will make Ash much more affective in both stealth and offensive gameplay.

 

If you like my revisit please show support by sharing this post, If you want my idea to be implemented to Ash please sign and share my petition so DE can see this and make Ash way better than he is/was.

http://chng.it/TVJnXgZC

 

Listen while you read (loop it) TRUST ME

Spoiler

 

 

  • All abilities can be cast while on ziplines.

Shuriken

Spoiler

ash-shuriken.png

  • If an enemy is un-alerted and is killed in one hit it is considered as a stealth kill.
  • Holding the ability will make both shurikens target the enemy you`re aiming at dealing double slash damage and has 100% crit chance.
  • Critical damage is 1.5 at base however you can increase it with power strength.
  • Headshots will do more damage.
  • The held version works like the way Nezha`s 2nd ability does. Quick cast, straight path and more damage.
  • The held version will have increased flight speed.
  • The more health the enemy loses, the slower the enemy moves when bleeding out.
  • When the enemy stops bleeding, it will go back to its normal movement speed, If you hit the same enemy that was affected before, it will go back to the same slow speed and will keep getting slower until it`s lifeless.
  • It has a 1 second combo window, the more you use the ability, the more damage it does, the less energy it takes.
  • The built-up damage multiplier from spamming it can affect the held version of shuriken.
  • The held version can pause the 1 sec combo duration drain indicator so that you have time to get the full damage out of it but the decreased energy won`t carry over to it.
  • Depending on the damage built up from the combo multiplayer will determine the increase of critical damage from the held version, if high enough it can reach red crits.

 

Smoke Screen

Spoiler

ash-smokescreen.png

  •  Increase the cast stun duration to 4 sec.
  • The knockback is 1 sec and the stun is 3 secs.
  • The smoke left behind will last for 10 seconds.
  • The smoke cloud has a 5m radius which can be increased by range mods.
  • The 4 sec stun also affects osprays by them visually float down to the ground before recovering.
  • The stun can interrupt and override enemies that`s already affected by a stun.
  • Enemies that enter the smoke will receive a 6 sec stun duration and are 40% more susceptible to damage. If allies are in the cloud they cannot be targeted by enemies.
  • If Ash stays in the cloud his personal duration won`t start until either he leaves the cloud or the cloud duration runs out.
  • Allies that are in the cloud are visually translucent to show that they are unseen by enemies.
  • All stun durations cannot be increased by duration mods.
  • When Ash is invisible, the apparitions from bs are also translucent to show that they cannot be seen by enemies.
  • Remove muffled sound while invisible.

 

Teleport

Spoiler

ash-teleport.png

  • Holding the ability will show an indicator of where he can teleport to from the radical.
  • The teleport stun can interrupt and override enemies that`s already affected by a stun and any movement/animations they are currently in.
  • When teleporting to enemies with the held version, enemies won`t detect you when in close proximity and it won`t open enemy to finishers.
  • The cast speed of the held version is half a second.
  • Teleporting to a wall will make ash hang to the wall for 10 seconds if you press the aim glide button (you don`t needs to hold the button to hang on to it). While hanging on the wall Ash can either bullet jump of the wall or teleport to an enemy or a surface.
  • You can teleport through windows if there are allies, npcs, enemies, objects with a health bar or is scannable objects on the other side of it.
  • Not only it can teleport to anything with a health bar, it can also teleport to anything that can be scanned.
  • It can also bypass grates and fans if there is space on the other side of it.
  • If you can see an ally or enemy through a wall you can teleport to them.
  • You are able to teleport to enemies that are in the air.
  • After teleporting to an airborne enemy, you can perform melee attacks which will keep him airborne.
  • The damage from melee will be the same as the damage from finishers.
  • Even if an enemy is already stunned it will still able to be open to a finisher.
  • If he targets an enemy behind cover, he will teleport behind it for a finisher instead of just standing above them.
  • He can perform front finishers on moas and infested enemies.

 

Bladestorm

Spoiler

ash-bladestorm.png

  • When activating the ability, it will start instantly.
  • Enemies that are within the radius of the enemy your radical in on will be affected by it.
  • The target range is 30m while the radius is 20m which can be increased by range mods.
  • Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation while holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.
  • If you want to jump out of bs, press the ability again and the clones will continue to kill enemies.
  • Enemies that are red can be killed by players.
  • It ignores line of site.
  • There is no limit to how many enemies he can kill within the radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.
  •  On deactivation or when blade storm ends while in the animation, Ash teleports back to the position where he first activated it.
  • An indicator is shown of the number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs.
  • Sliding before activating will increase the animation speed and clones` attack speed by 20%.
  • Your sentinel will not only be invulnerable but will also visually disappear while in the animation, this also including visually pickups from vacuum.

Why this logically makes blade storm better;

  • Ash`s bs is still slow when it comes to dps however, at lease because it`s an instant activation, he will at least get to the enemies 1st before any other frame`s damage ability does.
  • The current bs we have now made him absolutely useless in a team but with my changes, at least in a high-level mission he can kill more efficiently which in turn make the team less likely to get downed.
  • The choice of whether you want to be in the animations or not is much easier to pull off. The way it is now, if you use bs and you want to join the animation, but you have no energy you can’t join it even through it`s not meant to cost any energy to do so.
  • The indicator lets you know when you can use bs again.
  • Other people can take his kills while bs is still active which won`t matter coz of the amount of enemies he can kill.

 

Interactive blade storm animation (optional)

Spoiler

If you don`t want to be in the animation, it will act as normal however if you decide to be involved in the animation, you have a chance to gain bonus duration of slash ticks and 1% animation speed increase in the next use however, you have to be interactive within the animation.

 

While in the animation;

  • You have to press the melee button in sink when his stabs enemies in the animation.
  • When doing so, there is an indicator showing the buffs and successful hits which will be converted into duration of slash ticks and animation speed increase.
  • The more successful hits you get the more animation speed you can get in the next use e.g. 10 successful hits = 10% animation speed.
  • The maximus slash duration bonus you can receive is 7 seconds.
  • If you jump out of bs you will lose the bonuses.
  • The bonuses slash tick duration will also include all weapon types. (even weapons that don’t have slash)
  • If you don`t interact with at least five animation cutscenes and get three successful hits, you will only deal half of bs damage. (2000 damage + no interaction = 1000 damage.

 

Synergies

Smoke Screen + Shuriken, Teleport & Blade Storm:

  • If you use any ability while you`re invisible, enemy bodies will disappear.
  • While smoke screen is active enemies won`t be able to detect Ash or enemies killed when in close proximity.

 

Shuriken + Teleport:

  • Using the 1st ability on an enemy will show their health bar through walls longer, making you able to teleport to them as long as they are continually receiving bleeding ticks.

 

Shuriken + Blade Storm:

To increase the damage of bs you must use shuriken. As long as enemies continuously keep receiving bleeding ticks your damage will increase over time with no limit.

  • Enemies need to be alive and bleeding from the 1st ability for bs to build up damage.
  • If no enemies are affected by slash, you will have five seconds before the damage is lost.
  • If the five seconds timer reaches zero, the stored-up damage will decay overtime.
  • There will be an indicator showing the amount of damage you are accumulating and the amount of time you have left.
  • If you get downed, the timer won`t start until you are revived.

 

Fixes

Spoiler
  • Make Ash be able to teleport in and out of the same grates instead of just one direction.
  • Make opening enemies up to finishers consistent with 3rd ability.
  • Sometime ash is glitched and stabbing the air and he is unseen when using bs due to camera angle.
  • Make the “clones” look like him (like wukong`s 1st ability) instead of looking like a hologram.
  • When blade storm is done, Ash doesn’t appear at the same place he started at but instead is teleported in a different location.
  • If he targets an enemy behind cover with his 3rd ability, he will teleport behind them for a finisher instead of just standing above them.

 

As much as I like my improvements to bladestorm, if I was thinking like DE I would have to make some changes to make it more balanced (I would like to know your opinion on this).

Balance Changes:

Spoiler
  • It costs 100 energy at base.
  • It no longer increases damage from the combo multiplier but instead like I said before, to increase the damage of bs you must use shuriken. As long as enemies continuously keep receiving bleeding ticks your damage will increase over time with no limit.
  • Remove the synergy for Bladestorm to cost less energy when Smoke Screen is active (no reason for this to exist)
  • While in the animation, Ash will receive 70% damage reduction, if downed Bladestorm will stop.
  • Bladestorm does 1,000 damage like before.

 

To see more things I say relating to Ash go to each, press CTRL + F then type Vexx-info to view them and follow the post to see them.

 

If you like my revisit please show support by sharing this post, If you want my idea to be implemented to Ash please sign and share my petition so DE can see this and make Ash way better than he is/was.

http://chng.it/TVJnXgZC

 

I love Ash I play him 24% of the time but I'm not going to ignore the facts, all I want is for Ash to get a revisit on the level of Nezha`s revisit or better, If Ash is like this it would make doing things like this fun as heck.

Spoiler

Warframe 20211231143329 by Aaronj-c

Ash by Aaronj-c

Warframe 20211114203240 by Aaronj-c

Ash Assassinations by Aaronj-c

Ash skills 1 by Aaronj-c

Ash skills 2 by Aaronj-c

Warframe 20220102204436 by Aaronj-c

Edited by (PSN)Vexx757
  • Like 23
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

When most people play Ash they play him as a damage dealer going on the offensive however I have played Ash for a long time and I realise, the best way to play Ash is to use him for stealth gameplay.

  • Shuriken can kill enemies silently.
  • Smoke screen makes you invis
  • It gets enemies to move when playing stealth.
  • Stop enemies from setting the alarm off
  • Teleport can reach an enemy from a distance and kill them silently

It`s only bladestorm that can be used in stealth situations, also bs is not good at dealing with enemies efficiently and its the ability that is going to be use mostly in a team to kill enemies. 

Just try it and you will see he`s abilities is most affective in stealth situations then playing him offensively. 

no thanks. one of the best things about warframe is its versitility.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

Shuriken can kill enemies silently.

Why spend 25 energy on a level 30 enemy that will die to literally one hit of literally any and all weapons in the game (including MK1's)? Why not use Bladestorm instead - it costs less energy and deals vastly more damage?

Shuriken does *not* deal relevant damage. It also doesn't do anything else, at all, unless you use an augment.

The only time in recent memory that pressing the teleport button was a good use of your finger was before Marked for Death got nerfed - and *even then* it wasn't better than just using weapons.

The truth is, Ash goes invisible and buffs weapon damage, and *maybe* removes armor in a clunky and outdated way. That is all, might as well try and kill enemies with bullet jumps if you want to use his other abilities.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Vexx... I respect you're passionate about Ash, and I do SOMETIMES agree with your arguments and evidence especially in the past. But this is too much! Barring on the line of being really unhealthy IMHO. 

There is so much here that either doesn't make much sense, or is just borderline slandering peoples opinions just for the simple fact you disagree. I read all of it and I couldn't help but wince. 

And to top it off: You made an actual petition... I have no words for this. I can't even take the 127/200 numbers seriously because you have a history of inflating numbers or repeating posts. 

And even if by some miracle he gets a rework, I HIGHLY doubt it will be to any sort of level you'd accept. What you really want is a massive fundamental change to Ashs kit, not a even Grendel or Wukong level rework, you want a whole redo from the ground up. You'd be better off waiting for a new frame instead of that to be honest. 

  • Like 12
Link to comment
Share on other sites

ngl, i didn't read the whole post but as an Ash main - i agreed with everything as far as I've read, being the first main sections of his abilities. His augments do feel required.. was never how augments were supposed to work. His teleport is pretty busted on the finishers - back in the day, i preached how fatal teleport was trash because the dmg was never necessary, that it was a waste of a valuable mod slot and you can perform a lethal finisher without it. But even now, I'm using it myself because I just can't make those finishers happen now with the surmounting bugs around him.

Idk you from the last grineer i sliced to bits, so that's as honest and objective as a response as you can get (that goes for anyone reading this). I hope you're not as annoying as these guys above me make you out to be. Be good out there.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Teleport: Ash teleports towards the target, bringing him into melee range and making enemies vulnerable to finishers. Which is not true that's why they made Fatal Teleport Warframe Augment Mod for Ash that causes Teleport to immediately perform a melee finisher upon teleporting to the target, with an additional damage multiplier. Additionally, if the finisher kills its target, 50% of Teleport's energy cost is refunded, so Ash teleport works like it should be with the Augment on anyway.

SPOILERS:

DE you know that the ability doesn't work properly look what you did with stalker teleport ability in duviri paradox, this is Stalker Teleport ability. 

Ability Text:

Teleport to a target and perform a finisher. If the finisher kills the target, Stalker regains a portion of the energy spent.

So what does it sounds like? Yeee Ash Teleport with Augment mod already installed into the Ability it self.

DE FIX ASH PLEASE no need Augments to fix him you showed us that you know how to fix an ability example stalker teleport ability.

You can view an image here who's interested to see stalker ability don't subscribe I'm not doing this for profit.

 

Edited by (PSN)MisterPlayerPlay
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From my past experience playing ash, his teleport does allow for finishers on certain enemies

On 2023-04-16 at 8:40 AM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

On consoles it`s changed to where the finisher prompt is separate from the melee button which makes it which kind of brakes the flow of it.

This same on pc default finisher button is the same as the interact and mercy kill button. 

Stated on the wiki there are conditions that finishers wont trigger but large damage can still be gained.

"If the enemy cannot be attacked with a melee finisher (either due to positioning or the enemy type), it will be susceptible to Stealth Damage Multipliers from melee attacks for the duration of the stagger." 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(So much boring text xd)

Well, i have an Ash but i barely use him cause its weird but i like his concept

When i first farmed Ash in the railjack missions i was doing it for the Shuriken with his augment to armor strip, but when i was waiting for him to build, veilbreaker come out and styanax was given for free and with him, his subsume "Tharros Strike" that is basically a Shuriken but Aoe, with more range and its permanent and with that other examples comes, like terrify or the ember subsume (i dont remember how it called in english xd)

Thats the only reason i still have ash in my arsenal, i tried to make him a build for Bladestorm but when i see how it works in controller i was like "Im too lazy for this"

But dont mind me to much, i have only like..500-600 hours? Im still a novice in the space farm game

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2023-04-24 at 12:03 AM, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Man literally joins clans on consoles just to promote his wf forum posts it's extremely unhealthy and has been kicked from at least one clan I know of for this.

 

On 2023-04-25 at 10:16 PM, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

That’s cringe.

 

On 2023-04-23 at 10:52 PM, Mediloric said:

Vexx... I respect you're passionate about Ash, and I do SOMETIMES agree with your arguments and evidence especially in the past. But this is too much! Barring on the line of being really unhealthy IMHO. 

There is so much here that either doesn't make much sense, or is just borderline slandering peoples opinions just for the simple fact you disagree. I read all of it and I couldn't help but wince. 

And to top it off: You made an actual petition... I have no words for this. I can't even take the 127/200 numbers seriously because you have a history of inflating numbers or repeating posts. 

And even if by some miracle he gets a rework, I HIGHLY doubt it will be to any sort of level you'd accept. What you really want is a massive fundamental change to Ashs kit, not a even Grendel or Wukong level rework, you want a whole redo from the ground up. You'd be better off waiting for a new frame instead of that to be honest. 

He's an incredibly unhealthy and toxic person, he will insult you and block you if you so much as oppose his ideas.
he never stops and will never stop until DE bans him or kicks him from the forums.

and I don't think he'll ever be satisfied, he wants his "Revisit" exactly like that without any exceptions, it's incredibly childish, and it's staggering that's he's still the same even after 4-5 years, you'd think he'd grow out of it.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

 

 

He's an incredibly unhealthy and toxic person, he will insult you and block you if you so much as oppose his ideas.
he never stops and will never stop until DE bans him or kicks him from the forums.

and I don't think he'll ever be satisfied, he wants his "Revisit" exactly like that without any exceptions, it's incredibly childish, and it's staggering that's he's still the same even after 4-5 years, you'd think he'd grow out of it.

I mean. I want a Rev rework, but my bare minimum is “remove vampire. Insert eidolon”. The actual specifics of that vary wildly as there’s several directions you can actually go with a 100% Eidolon themed kit.

Also, IDK if Vex is intentionally being toxic. He might just be a little…you know….different…..in the head.

Edited by (XBOX)GearsMatrix301
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

He's an incredibly unhealthy and toxic person, he will insult you and block you if you so much as oppose his ideas.
he never stops and will never stop until DE bans him or kicks him from the forums.

and I don't think he'll ever be satisfied, he wants his "Revisit" exactly like that without any exceptions, it's incredibly childish, and it's staggering that's he's still the same even after 4-5 years, you'd think he'd grow out of it.

Oh I know, I called him out for something before with proof and he had a good rant at me for it which caused that post to get removed. Just how I'm wrong, incorrect, a troll, everything. Didn't even approach my arguments and continued to be... well, factually wrong. 

I don't dislike the chap really, I think he just needs to take a step back and look at what he's really typing. 

In the meantime, let's just stop posting on this topic all together. It's what he wants and we are just feeding it.

Let it just glide peacefully away and forget it existed. Maybe then Vexx will see that this isn't a healthy approach to change he wants to advocate for, in fact he's doing more harm to his cause and making his ideas less and less likely to happen. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Took a moment to read but yeah, a lot of what you address is right, especially when looking at the bugs his kit has and the bandaid fixes that his augments provide (specifically the first one). Your suggestions would definitely improve the cohesiveness of his kit and make him more enjoyable to play. Even in the case that DE decided to not take everything into consideration, I do think they need to do an update to Ash and any other frame whose augments are bandaids to dysfunctional abilities. With that being said, doing a full overhaul and implementing your suggestions would be quite fun to play and I definitely would play Ash more if he did receive the changes you suggested. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having just gotten my old Ash (who is well built) in SP circuit, I can say this.

Bladestorm should go back to the "Press 4 to target enemies in a radius and execute them." the marking nonsense is cumbersome, downright clunky, time consuming, and aggravates my hands as a keyboard and mouse player. Make pressing 4 again while bladestorm is still running cause Ash to teleport to the closest enemy to help with the murder.

I know it got tweaked in response to DE taking a stance against "Press 4 to win" nukes, but we have frames now that can do 4, 1, etc and win. (Citrine, Saryn, Octavia, etc.)

Shuriken should just have armor strip and a slash proc built in. Make seeking shuriken do..something else like make it fire more shurikens with aggressive homing at 360 degrees to function as a radial armor strip.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quite the read! I respect your passion and dedication to Ash. I have one myself too.

IMG-20230509-150350.jpg

(Ignore Gaze please. It's a bug I'm begging DE to fix for ages.)

 

I agree Ash could use some improvements. He's an old frame and similar to the likes of Trinity, using his abilities can get tiresome due to the way they're designed. They also feel like they've been designed with much slower gameplay in mind (Bladestorm mostly).

Granted, I don't have as much playtime on Ash as you, I do occasionally take him out for a spin. Even so, I'd like to propose a bit simpler approach.

 

Shuriken is in a weird place right now thanks to Styanax. His Tharros Strike does full Shield and Armor strip, staggers, and heals. It has much shorter range than Shuriken and you likely won't kill with it directly, but since range isn't an issue with Ash thanks to his teleport, TS is a superior choice. Teleport to an enemy, kill it with a finisher, TS his buddies and him them down. It works great and it's cheap. I really don't know how to make Shuriken relevant without having it invade the territory of another ability.

 

Smoke Screen could certainly use a duration increase. Also, I would add an option to opt out of it for allies. Getting invisible isn't always beneficial because you might want to get hit (Arcane Avenger) or draw aggro to you (Chroma).

 

Teleport needs fixing with regards to the stun and various animation bugs. You should also be able to teleport anywhere you can see, not just to enemies.

 

Bladestorm is the worst out of his kit. The marking is too slow and it summons only two shadows to do all the killing. First off, each marked enemy should get their own Shadow so the killing is done much faster. Second, the marking needs to have a wider area. I wouldn't shy away from having all enemies on the screen within the range be marked at the same time. Naturally, this can result in an immense Energy cost, but as a trade off this can quickly wipe the whole area.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

I believe Ash needs a revisited  as pointed out by others player, most ability dont work as they should. You truly come to see that even more when you use Stalker in Duviri.  I feel Ash was just left in the Dark since a long time, probably since the time Mesa overshadow him. He really need some love, and like Vexx757 said so that he can be truly be play as what he should be a Ninja !!!

Edited by Mr.Skull
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading the comments just, feels like people are not ok with change

 

Vexx is right on the changes. Honestly if YOU NEED AN AUGMENT to make an ability more viable, its a trash ability, an augment should be a different play style not a straight upgrade.

of all the stealth frames ash is the weakest, even compared to loki who has way more options as well as a way longer stealth time. 

 

I fully support frames that have way less playtime and options need reworks, simply put if you want people to keep putting more hours into warframe make the arsenals of weapons more fun to use. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel like everything you said was correct but other stuff should be done first

some warframes are usable but garbage

some pets don't have a reason to use

garbage game modes that should be just scrapped

improve railjack and more crossplay features

host migration and host migration

and everyone should call me handsome all the time :)

 

Edited by EdwardP445
need to go more in depth
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I argue that Shuriken isn't even good with the augment. Tharros Strike, Styanax's second ability, stripes BOTH armor and shields starting at 50% and will go up to 100%, the only downside is it's a 9m cone (base range). Still, loads better than an ability that needs an augment to strip armor, only strips armor, and it won't necessarily strip armor from the enemy you want it to.

I honestly don't think his other abilities are that bad. I do think all the things that do stun should have a stun duration that scales with ability duration, and that smoke screen should have a slightly longer duration and open enemies up to finishers (though not stealth finishers). Blade Storm just needs a larger target reticle and maybe remove the "synergy" from Teleport (I rather not get locked into an animation).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...