Pls Rebalance 4Th Skills, Op Skills.

[neKroMancer]

From where I´m sitting this is as it should be. WE the players are at max lv 30 at the moment. The pluto mobs etc are lv 45+ if we were to own them with our direct dpd ultis it would be lame. The simple fact is that they are higher level with higher armor and resistances and a higher HP pool as such they dont die in one shot. It is not that the ulti is underpowered it is simply the case that it is underleveled or the frame is underleveled.

Rest assured that the max level will not be lv 30 forever and rest assured that the highest content will always be stronger than the players, otherwise it wouldnt be a challenge, thus all is as it should be. AND a nice sideffect is that people who complain that room clear abilities are to strong will at the endgame have more to contribute to large fights. Nothing to change here nothing to add here. ALL IS AS INTENDED, it is this way in ALL games.

Thank you very much.

What you're asking for is a cycle of buff to compensate the future content.

It's an easy way to look at it. However, it will eventually create power creep scenario where DE have to buff power damage or increase player max level with every new 'endgame' content that got released. Something every developer know and avoid.

It's the direct damage nature without utility that create the problem. Does Loki/Rhino/Nyx/Trinity ultimate create the same problem? They don't because they either scale with the enemy damage or have a utility/CC to be useful in all level. These are good designs that last. Bad design doesn't.

[PeripheralVisionary]

I think the only really unbalanced skill might be smokescreen +dual zorrens, but then again, you need to do a lot of work to get the necessary mods to make it work.

Edited March 4, 2013 by PeripheralVisionary

[Oktalz]

What you're asking for is a cycle of buff to compensate the future content.

It's an easy way to look at it. However, it will eventually create power creep scenario where DE have to buff power damage or increase player max level with every new 'endgame' content that got released. Something every developer know and avoid.

It's the direct damage nature without utility that create the problem. Does Loki/Rhino/Nyx/Trinity ultimate create the same problem? They don't because they either scale with the enemy damage or have a utility/CC to be useful in all level. These are good designs that last. Bad design doesn't.

I like fact that you find frames having cc good but not the enemy (read your post on the other threads) contradicting to say the least. And I disagree that utility is the only thing skills should have. The reason things in this game has level progression is cause its an ARPG at its core. The fact that higher level players faceroll lower maps is as it should be and higher content will need increase in skills and artifacts. If this is something you cant stand then you are free to leave and go play battlefield where the only difference in difficulty is if you have kevlar or not. The true task for any developer of any game witv rpg elements is to create a compelling endgame that lasts.Items to find, events to do, trials to overcome, story mode, challenge mode or att pvp, leveling or ladders. There are tons of ways to create a fun endgame that can be played without causing the feeling that everything is too easy.

So as a whole I think that you sir have no idea what you are on about. Respectfully of course.

[CY13ERPUNK]

i agree that the powers need to be balanced in terms of the desired gameplay

case in point the abundance of ULT's (4th powers) that just kill all in the radius (we need more diversification in ULT utility)

and i think this is the major reason why ULT's should have CD timers and the power/energy system needs a re-work with some mild regen (regen upto 25-50% of max power, have to collect orbs for more, orbs become MUCH more rare drops)

[Dreed]

I think the only really unbalanced skill might be smokescreen +dual zorrens, but then again, you need to do a lot of work to get the necessary mods to make it work.

U can say the same about Loki skill... but:

- u need proper weapon - Not only Zorens will work fine. With scindo i deal aroun 1000 dmg in normal attack.

- u need special mods in Warframe and Weapon

- You still fight with weapon and support this fight with skill not vice versa

- Smoke Screen or Loki skill dont clear whole room in one shoot even with proper mods u cant kill 30mobs in one hit ;]

Edited March 4, 2013 by Dreed

[neKroMancer]

I like fact that you find frames having cc good but not the enemy (read your post on the other threads) contradicting to say the least. And I disagree that utility is the only thing skills should have. The reason things in this game has level progression is cause its an ARPG at its core. The fact that higher level players faceroll lower maps is as it should be and higher content will need increase in skills and artifacts. If this is something you cant stand then you are free to leave and go play battlefield where the only difference in difficulty is if you have kevlar or not. The true task for any developer of any game witv rpg elements is to create a compelling endgame that lasts.Items to find, events to do, trials to overcome, story mode, challenge mode or att pvp, leveling or ladders. There are tons of ways to create a fun endgame that can be played without causing the feeling that everything is too easy.

So as a whole I think that you sir have no idea what you are on about. Respectfully of course.

An almost impolite reply to a polite post.

You understand that the endgame needs last. However, power creep isn't a way to endgame but a way to end the game with imbalance. Warframe is TPS with RPG element. I think you're concentrating too hard on the action RPG side of the game and ignore other sides of the game. Power casting isn't a novel thing in this genre of game. However, direct damage powers always fall short when you're comparing it to buff power or weapon damage. They create problem when the higher level of the game got added in the later update/patch.

Why?

Facing higher level mooks with fixed damage represent significant balancing problem. If developer decide to give them straight increase in damage then it'll trivialize older contents. If they don't increase damage then these powers will be ineffective. The only way to deal with it is to create mod/artifact that increase power damage. Players will have to grind which, although take more time, still create a power creep scenario and make the game even more gear-dependent and decrease the value of player skill. Overall decrease in TPS value and skill ceiling of the game. This is an undesirable situation since it make a joke of half of the game's aspect.

This is the reason why I prefer buff/debuff/CC powers. They scale better with difficulty and still require some skills to use than fire&forget powers. Players have to read the situation and act before things gone sideway. Right now, all of the direct damage ultimates fall short in this regard since they're just panic button.

[Mirsh]

On Pluto, mobs do not die from a single skill. I don't think that it is a final content, so what all this? After all in any game highlevel characters quickly and easily clear locatoins

[MAL1WAN]

Nerf the 4th skills?

Have fun in Solo!!!

[Ryme]

I feel ultimate skills should be left as is in the game, as some people may need them in solo missions. Instead, I think they should be disabled in coop missions, as a group of 2 or more is more than enough to take on any opponents. The only people popping their ults in coop games, are kill hoarders who don't want to give anyone else any kills, after they've emptied their own weapon clip, or rushers who have ditched the rest of their team and run off on their own. Neither of these should be encouraged in coop games, as they disuade any actual cooperation.

I see plenty of people clearing out rooms with their one skill in Eris and Pluto systems. You just have to use mods that boost the abilities accordingly.

A single frame can easily take out 5 or 6 times their number in opponents. Currently, the map sets are so small, that a group will never be thusly outnumbered and have to rely on an Ultimate skill to survive. Maybe in the future, if there are actually large open instances that require a team to spread out and engage large numbers of enemies, ult abilities will see some justification.

The one exception to this are Infested Defense missions. Those things are just a-holes.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Ryme

[Juper0]

i am hoping that they make Volt, mag, and frost a little more ballanced. they amount of AoE is ubserd for the cost. i don't think that energy should be harder to get, and i don't think that strait nerfing the skills will solve the issue and keep people happy. my thought is simeply to get away from 4ths (ults) costing 100 only. make the high damage/huge AoE ults cost more. 150? maybe even 200? the idea is that players are waiting to pull that ult out at just the right time! having 4 energy siphens and a trinity on a boss fight or defense = volt/mag/frost/ember laying down more powers than bullets cause of near infinite energy....

Make more powerful ults cost more,and MAYBE a slight reduciton in damage/area...

[Dreed]

Nerf the 4th skills?

Have fun in Solo!!!

With good weapons.. u dont need skills like that.. its simple. and yes i know what im talking about.. sorry have mag have frost .. its no problem to play and clear maps with weapon only... Defense mission... Solo mode its not good .. i prefer group.. why? because more mod drop.

////

The problem its not a energy.. even when they cost 150 energy its not a problem to spam 4th skill every single wave. most players make Frost/Mag/Volt for defens mission only.. putting power range, power efficiency and skills cost a little and have big range.. if they change energy cost they put another power efficiency and all will be happy.. this skill dont even needed to be lvled to be good. On 1st skill they take mobs on one hit and with mods it cover whole room.

Ok..on pluto this skills dont kill on 1 hit.. but on 2 hits.. its difrence. for me -NO, why .. because with 4 ppl in pt u still fast run from one room to another ..2x AoE and go forward.. its challenge? Funny.. maybe .. but if whole game and future content will be based on one skill clearing room... dont many players will stay here.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Dreed

[RossRam]

nerf mags crash to hell

[LunarTemplar]

The most hilarious fact concerning 4th Skill is that Mag and Rhino have the same Skill but Mags does a lot of damage and Rhinos doesnt.

I noteiced that, but then I use Rhino Stomp to get in free hits, where as I use Mags as more an 'oh S#&$' button.

so no, the 4th skills don't really need to be tweeked, cause then you run the risk of making them useless, sides, you wanna talk about spamming.

Excaliburs 1st skill, now thats a spammed skill

Edited March 5, 2013 by LunarTemplar

[UkyoSonoda]

Again simplest solution to complaints over players spamming AoE skills on defense missions. Run a different mission type or do your defense missions solo. Honestly it sounds like your complaint is you want to play with other people but get upset if they outperform you IE get more kills than you do despite this being a co-op game. Crush and Avalanche I don't think can even kill a grineer mook on Ceres in 1 shot due to the heavy armor reduction to the skill. Overload seems far less effective against non corpus especially when on the grineer tile set. You're going to complain over people optimizing the usage on of a skill in a scenario that makes it effective and efficient because you want to just shoot things IMO its more a user error in your thought process rather than a skill being overpowered. Of course they're going to hit alot of targets on a standard defense for alot of damage. The standard defense mission constantly produces the ideal scenario of using said skill.

[Gaiters]

Rhino's third ability won't be affected? Nerf everything else? Sure. MAG's fourth ability takes time, I'm sorry to the MAG I was trolling by getting all of the kills before it's power could actually activate.

Seriously though, Mods are being redone completely, this discussion should be postponed until after update 7.

I'd also like to add that with certain melee weapons it's possible to completely outclass other players in kills, Especially in infested defense missions.

Edited March 6, 2013 by ZEDD

[Dreed]

Sorry but u miss my point... Solo or in group... Mag or Frost is one man army and for this warframes group is only for better drop rate.

Yea .. hope we back to this topic after patch 7, hope it will bring good changes.

Why i dont complain weapon.. because noone of current weapon can clear room in one hit. Why i talk about defense mission.. because only there u fight with many mobs at once and only there u see how powerfull 4th is..

Why Corpus or Grenieer defens mission arent so popular than other.. because there is much harded and spamming 4th isnt so effecitve like vs infestation.

I hope that new system what change mod system will be great.. and have hope that some day this skill even with current form will be not OP at all.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Dreed

[Gaiters]

Dreed, I don't misunderstand, I have a Frost and MAG. :p

If you have the right mods every single warframe is a one man army. (even Trinity, it just takes a lot of ammo).

[Mir.]

Sorry but u miss my point... Solo or in group... Mag or Frost is one man army and for this warframes group is only for better drop rate.

Why i dont complain weapon.. because noone of current weapon can clear room in one hit. Why i talk about defense mission.. because only there u fight with many mobs at once and only there u see how powerfull 4th is..

Really? I thought it was dependant on RNG.

Use the right tools for the job. you DO REALISE that avalanche, overload, crush or AoE based skills are almost ABSOLUTELY useless against bosses. right?

[SoulEchelon]

Sorry but u miss my point... Solo or in group... Mag or Frost is one man army and for this warframes group is only for better drop rate.

Yea .. hope we back to this topic after patch 7, hope it will bring good changes.

Why i dont complain weapon.. because noone of current weapon can clear room in one hit. Why i talk about defense mission.. because only there u fight with many mobs at once and only there u see how powerfull 4th is..

Why Corpus or Grenieer defens mission arent so popular than other.. because there is much harded and spamming 4th isnt so effecitve like vs infestation.

I hope that new system what change mod system will be great.. and have hope that some day this skill even with current form will be not OP at all.

I can't speak for Frost since I don't have that frame yet, but Mag? She might be able to do a ton of AOE damage with Crush, but frankly all an enemy at any level needs to do is take her shields down. Without a ton of hp mods and nodes, she's a sitting duck. Her base HP is painfully low. Infested Disruptors can practically set up his cronies for an insta-kill on her. Happened to me before. Was doing all fine and dandy when all my shields and energy instantly got depleted by a Disruptor who snuck up behind me. With the SAME blow he knocked me down and I had no way of not getting killed by the swarm because my hp and armor was too low to withstand the constant hits.

you see, you're only focusing on damage output. There's more to it than that.

Edited March 6, 2013 by SoulEchelon

[Dreed]

Almost like all others skills in-game.. boss = weapon fight.. and sometimes u need alot of ammo.

Why i dont see ppl on defense in Pluto vs Corpus.. or Grineer on Eris?

Hmm .. SoulEchelon something for something.. even with Ash to do what im able to do atm dont make me god on battlefield.. im weak.. low shield low hp and basic armor.. cant stand near Toxic, one is painful, 2 is deadly for me, even with my dmg i still kill them with rifle.

Ancients are deadly for almost all warframes who focused mods on dmg type.. mele, power. My Frost is like tank with 137% power range, tons of Shield, Hp and Armor. Even when Distrupor drain me im able to fight and win.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Dreed

[Mak_Gohae]

Why Corpus or Grenieer defens mission arent so popular than other.. because there is much harded and spamming 4th isnt so effecitve like vs infestation.

Isnt it because there are less enemies aka less drops?

Because if you AOE the whole room.....why does it matter who is in the room?

[Mir.]

Almost like all others skills in-game.. boss = weapon fight.. and sometimes u need alot of ammo.

Why i dont see ppl on defense in Pluto vs Corpus.. or Grineer on Eris?

because people are stubbon, They do not know the use of other skills.

Mag's pull can become quite useful for saving teammates, bullet attractor when used in conjunction with radial javelin can be really deadly to bosses(maybe about 30~40% hp on Kril)

Volt's speed can save you in deadly situations when 100000 grinners are gunning at you.

Bosses actually move slower in Frost's snow globe.

Ember's world on fire is quite useful coupled with speed mods.

Nyx's chaos is lovely, use it to gain extra time to save a down teammate. Or escape from sweaty situations while you kill them all.

Rhino stomp can earn you extra time too.

And Loki, decoy is useful in any situations, getting to places, escaping, etc etc.

Almost like all others skills in-game.. boss = weapon fight.. and sometimes u need alot of ammo.

Why i dont see ppl on defense in Pluto vs Corpus.. or Grineer on Eris?

lesser drops, simple. I actually liked outer terminus cause of the rubedo drops.

[Oktalz]

Almost like all others skills in-game.. boss = weapon fight.. and sometimes u need alot of ammo.

Why i dont see ppl on defense in Pluto vs Corpus.. or Grineer on Eris?

Hmm .. SoulEchelon something for something.. even with Ash to do what im able to do atm dont make me god on battlefield.. im weak.. low shield low hp and basic armor.. cant stand near Toxic, one is painful, 2 is deadly for me, even with my dmg i still kill them with rifle.

Ancients are deadly for almost all warframes who focused mods on dmg type.. mele, power. My Frost is like tank with 137% power range, tons of Shield, Hp and Armor. Even when Distrupor drain me im able to fight and win.

Dude the skills are fine and you have been repeating yourself for over 4 pages soon.. Play something else if you find this too annoying? I´d hate to tell you but you are a minority vs those who enjoy AOE. The reason you dont like it is cause you and everyone else play on Earth and Venus cause thats where Alloy Plate and Rubedo drop the easiest with no risk. Untill people move to other maps that´s how it´s gonna be.... To me it just sounds like you like Excalibur or Ashe or Loki so much that you are just angry cause you are not nr 1 on the dps at the end of the game... I play Loki fully melee and I am first more than often. No one cares about your personal goal to beat the dps meter.

Also you say you have Frost and MAG but you don´t play them cause it´s not fun.... YOU ARE NOT SPEAKING FOR EVERYONE!.... get that through your head. There are people out there who think these frames are FUN when they wanna just watch numbers all over. My personal favorite frames are Loki, Ash (don´t ask), Ember and Nyx. None of these do instant kill skills.... how come I don´t get annoyed that others who play these AOE Frames do the damage they do? Cause I´m not blinded by the DPS meter. And neither should you!

Edited March 6, 2013 by Oktalz

[Dreed]

Maybe for no everyone but for me and some other ppl why are angry when whole map just gone with one my skill. I played alot with Mag and Frost for test.. im talking for all this ppl who was with me in pt and blame this damm OP skills.. mostly only because they dont have it "jet" but usualy because that not all ppl must like this kind of play style. With Online play you are unable to choose where u join or who will join You.. not always have friends olnine to make private game.. and usualy join in team which ppl who spamming AOE. This skill just kill other ppl and other warframe play style.. it make them useless on mission like that..

Sorry still NO ppl on Pluto vs Corpus.

For this i make movie:

Frost on Pluto Defense .. One wave to show 4th skill

Usualy it kill on one hit.. if not some mobs left with a little HP..

Mostly problem with this is one defens mission, mostly because 90% of this mission are on Ceris .. all farming Xini or Viverw over and over again.. noone go on pluto to fight vs Corpus or Eris where Grineer camping ;].

With v7 they add new defense type when every wave will be stronger i dont know whats start happing when in PT will be 4xMag/Frost spamming 4th.. challenge .. NO, fun.. maybe

Edited March 6, 2013 by Dreed

[Mir.]

Maybe for no everyone but for me and some other ppl why are angry when whole map just gone with one my skill. I played alot with Mag and Frost for test.. im talking for all this ppl who was with me in pt and blame this damm OP skills.. mostly only because they dont have it "jet" but usualy because that not all ppl must like this kind of play style. With Online play you are unable to choose where u join or who will join You.. not always have friends olnine to make private game.. and usualy join in team which ppl who spamming AOE. This skill just kill other ppl and other warframe play style.. it make them useless on mission like that..

Sorry still NO ppl on Pluto vs Corpus.

For this i make movie:

Frost on Pluto Defense .. One wave to show 4th skill

http://youtu.be/u2v-DzoEf4Q

Usualy it kill on one hit.. if not some mobs left with a little HP..

Mostly problem with this is one defens mission, mostly because 90% of this mission are on Ceris .. all farming Xini or Viverw over and over again.. noone go on pluto to fight vs Corpus or Eris where Grineer camping ;].

With v7 they add new defense type when every wave will be stronger i dont know whats start happing when in PT will be 4xMag/Frost spamming 4th.. challenge .. NO, fun.. maybe

Allow me to get this straight. You are basically. IGNORING ALL THE PREVIOUS POSTS. and reiterating your point again and again failing to see how FLAWED it is. Or do you need new counter arguements to show you how flawed your arguements are?

You didn't focus that the fact that both crush and avalanche needs 100 energy.

You didn't focus that ancients are mini bosses on Xini defense and are hard to kill without multishots.

You didn't focus that ancients drains energy and shields.

and what do Mag focuses on? Shields, my mag has 790+ shields and one lucky hit from ancients leaves me in a very vunerable state.

Somebody really needs to lock this thread up. We gone to 4 pages of spam, stupid, pointless, annoying messages repeating the same point over and over again.