It takes almost half a year to collect all the incarnon adapters- Timegated FOMO is the wrong direction for WF

[_Anise_]

On 2023-04-29 at 8:57 PM, Kaiga said:

you have to play for 18 weeks to get one adapter for each weapon

Imagine they used to be single use adapters !! so if you put one on BO-MK1 you needed to wait that long to get a second one

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt really endgame. Endgame is content you get to use your previously gathered progress in and test it, while making use of the content to further improve and prepare yourself for future endgame.

Hard content is just one type of endgame. Yes, hard content that uses all of your gathered skill and equipment is an endgame. Participating in a clan or social system is also an endgame. Building a base or holding territory is an endgame. Creative play like IkeaFrame is an endgame. Competitive content like PvP is an endgame. Maybe you should play some more games? 🙄

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Since you clearly do not get the point. It isnt at all like those games. In WF everything gets reused, in those other games you have a handful of areas out of all that are actually worth using. It has nothing to do with how they are located or what they are called etc. Let me make it really simple to understand. 

Game A has 30 zones, 3 of them are useful at a time as you progress, meaning you end up with 3 zones you actually make use of when you've reached your highest progression.

WF. You have all the planets and all the nodes and all the extra modes tied to them that you can utilze even if you've reached max power progression, since there is always the "evergreen" grind to fiish up all weapons that require materials from everywhere in the game. Or you can sit in SP to farm essence to buy evergreen rewards from a vendor, and it doesnt matter where you go in SP to do that. Granted, you likely wont run many one off missions unless they are incursions. But in the end, every node will likely get revisited on a regular basis due to them appearing across multiple different activities and difficulties throughout the game.

Well, yes, clearly I'm not getting it. So you're telling me you play lvl1-3 Earth missions? Because I don't believe you. Warframe has the same "30 zones" you describe in Game A where you end up with 3 of them are useful. "Zones" here just being activities vs geographical locations. Warframe's end-of-progression "zones" are modes like Kuva Survival, Fissures, SP, ESO, and the Circuit. Those are the useful "zones" you describe in Game A. It's identical, again just not geographically.

This:

is just this:

With a different format.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

So my question is then. Where exactly do you see the lack of evergreen in WF?

I will let @SneakyErvin answer that:

On 2023-08-01 at 5:42 AM, SneakyErvin said:

One thing I wouldnt mind seeing as evergreen rewards would be Bile.

Very well put!

Though since we're in a thread about Incarnon Adapters, consider this: in Nightwave when you already own an item you get an alternate Cred reward you can spend on whatever other reward you want. The same does not apply to the Circuit; you just get duplicate Adapters you can't use. Being able to choose something other than an Adapter for your Tier 5/10 reward, or being able to turn in unwanted duplicate Adapters for a token like Pathos Clamps or standing, would turn the big one-off main prize you'll stop caring about by September into something that always has at least some sort of value. You could then receive some of the existing evergreen rewards from Acrithis or the Holdfasts.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

6 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt really endgame. Endgame is content you get to use your previously gathered progress in and test it, while making use of the content to further improve and prepare yourself for future endgame. But I get the feeling you have very little experience in online game of the WF type or MMOs overall. Not only does your idea of endgame indicate that, but the following quote does aswell.

Since you clearly do not get the point. It isnt at all like those games. In WF everything gets reused, in those other games you have a handful of areas out of all that are actually worth using. It has nothing to do with how they are located or what they are called etc. Let me make it really simple to understand. 

Game A has 30 zones, 3 of them are useful at a time as you progress, meaning you end up with 3 zones you actually make use of when you've reached your highest progression.

WF. You have all the planets and all the nodes and all the extra modes tied to them that you can utilze even if you've reached max power progression, since there is always the "evergreen" grind to fiish up all weapons that require materials from everywhere in the game. Or you can sit in SP to farm essence to buy evergreen rewards from a vendor, and it doesnt matter where you go in SP to do that. Granted, you likely wont run many one off missions unless they are incursions. But in the end, every node will likely get revisited on a regular basis due to them appearing across multiple different activities and difficulties throughout the game.

Ok onto the evergreen thing. So you are inline with what DE defines as evergreen then it seems since you quoted their definition both to me and Tsukinoki.

So my question is then. Where exactly do you see the lack of evergreen in WF? Since practically any content we do has it going by the very definition of DE themselves, that you specifically quoted.

Duviri = Arcanes (evergreen lol what?), cosmetics (another big what?), decorations, kuva, forma, adapters, material trading, endo, credits, steel essence (leading to other evergreen purchases from Teshin) and so on.

SP = Essence, as mentioned vendor tokens to buy evergreens. Including cosmetics (again what?).

Arbitrations = Same as SP while also rewarding buttloads of endo options from the rewards, and another place for cosmetics (deserving another big big what?).

Eidolons = Arcanes (another evergreen lol and what?)

Star chart = Endo and materials that we need for a lengthy period of time since we have the evergreen grind in completing all weapons etc.

Railjack = Multitudes of materials that Helminth more or less made evergreen due to their increased use depending on the food type.

See there, everything already has evergreen rewards according to you and the quotes from DE that you provided. Personally I question DEs definition of evergreen strongly since they've included arcanes and one-time cosmetics to the bunch. 

I think this explanation should've ended the argument. Anything posted after this, in opposition, would be inadequate and pointless. Great job here @SneakyErvin!!

The beauty of DE's gameplay design with Warframe is always that "Oh yeah!" or "Aha!!" moment when specific resources or mods are obtained or desired. I recently did an Index farm with a buddy short on credits and completely forgot that the Index is also one of the best endo farming locations due to the constant gold rank mods the enemies drop. As old as the Index is, it serves as a perfect example of older content retaining very high value. 

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I think this explanation should've ended the argument.

Well it won't, because it's a rigid and narrow concept of "endgame" that fails to fully account for either the purpose of having an endgame or the other different types that exist. It's like insisting that spoons are the only type of silverware. Maybe you've never seen a fork and you get by just fine with your trusty spoon, but I promise you forks and knives and chopsticks are out there.

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I recently did an Index farm with a buddy short on credits and completely forgot that the Index is also one of the best endo farming locations due to the constant gold rank mods the enemies drop. As old as the Index is, it serves as a perfect example of older content retaining very high value. 

So you went to one of the few "zones you actually make use of when you've reached your highest progression" that Sneaky says only exist in Game A and not in Warframe. Or do you really farm Credits and Endo on Starchart Earth and and Mars missions? Nah, you go to one of the good endgame zones you've reached at "your highest progression", just like in his Game A. The distinction he's made there is entirely arbitrary and based on conflating geographic areas with the activities in those areas, as if the change in scenery somehow makes all the difference and as if no game in the history of games besides Warframe has ever asked the player to backtrack. Something something "inadequate and pointless".

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Well it won't, because it's a rigid and narrow concept of "endgame" that fails to fully account for either the purpose of having an endgame or the other different types that exist. It's like insisting that spoons are the only type of silverware. Maybe you've never seen a fork and you get by just fine with your trusty spoon, but I promise you forks and knives and chopsticks are out there.

So you went to one of the few "zones you actually make use of when you've reached your highest progression" that Sneaky says only exist in Game A and not in Warframe. Or do you really farm Credits and Endo on Starchart Earth and and Mars missions? Nah, you go to one of the good endgame zones you've reached at "your highest progression", just like in his Game A. The distinction he's made there is entirely arbitrary and based on conflating geographic areas with the activities in those areas, as if the change in scenery somehow makes all the difference and as if no game in the history of games besides Warframe has ever asked the player to backtrack. Something something "inadequate and pointless".

I said I went to the Index with a buddy for a credit farm and realized it is also a great place for endo. I did not say it was my premier location to do so. For that, I do Railjack missions...you know, an entire set of planets and nodes from a completely different part of the game that offers a different set of rewards, in the standard star chart. Another prime spot is SP star chart....you know, virtually the entire game after passing the main game. Evergreen Helminth is always hungry so I need resources from the entire solar system to manage my shards, invigorations, subsumes and other near infinitely rewarding combinations that are available in that room. 

So, where do we stand? You are trying to tell us that what we have been doing for years: repeating MANY "this is the farm for x" nodes, Eidolon fights, PT and Exploiter fights, Sorties, the entire SP chart, endurance runs, speed runs, arbi runs, SO and ESO runs, Index and Arena runs, Railjack runs, relic runs, lore hunts, conservation runs, dojo building and resource runs, conclave battles, Lunaro battles (yes, both are good but are not promoted anymore by YouTubers)...all of that is STILL not repeated, highly used endgame stuff to you? And you still can't even properly define what you want that DE hasn't already provided time and time again? 

At this point, it's a waste on your part because all of those events offer plenty of rewards for me after 7 years and thousands of hours. Whatever the heck you think you are going to get out of arguing against that is not gonna happen.

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

For that, I do Railjack missions...you know, an entire set of planets and nodes from a completely different part of the game that offers a different set of rewards, in the standard star chart.

And Railjack is just another one of those "zones" Sneaky is talking about same as the Index. You're doing Railjack or the Index because it's Railjack or the Index, not because it's located geographically on Venus or around Earth. Again: a map in an MMO with different leveled zones you progress through is functionally identical to Warframe where you progress through different mission types and modes.

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

So, where do we stand? You are trying to tell us that what we have been doing for years: repeating MANY "this is the farm for x" nodes, Eidolon fights, PT and Exploiter fights, Sorties, the entire SP chart, endurance runs, speed runs, arbi runs, SO and ESO runs, Index and Arena runs, Railjack runs, relic runs, lore hunts, conservation runs, dojo building and resource runs, conclave battles, Lunaro battles (yes, both are good but are not promoted anymore by YouTubers)...all of that is STILL not repeated, highly used endgame stuff to you?

Uh, of course it's endgame? That's literally what I've been saying. Please keep up. It's the narrow definitions like Sneaky's that's saying none of that is endgame. Again, since it seems you don't know who is saying what, here is Sneaky:

Quote

That isnt really endgame. Endgame is content you get to use your previously gathered progress in and test it, while making use of the content to further improve and prepare yourself for future endgame.

Here is me:

Quote

endgame content is just evergreen content. That's it, really complicated right? It's just content with a reason to keep replaying it beyond the one-off rewards.

Now tell me, who here is saying that this content you do is not endgame or evergreen content? Do you even know who you're agreeing and disagreeing with?

[WOLFtv]

On 2023-07-29 at 12:08 PM, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Wait...have you played the Circuit? There are a lot of rewards. 

I'm beginning to think some of you are just on the whine train. 

you know that at this point players already got all the incarnations apart from the 5 new?

its some hours to reach tier 9 each week which gives ok rewards,few arcanes are good,materials for incarnation was must, and SE which you can farm better outside                          then inside circuit what resources they drop? non its around map but not from mobs 

Then what are a lot of rewards? same with decrees they give materials which are the easiest to gather and we got the free plants... with bunch of bugs whats the points of keep playing circuit? changes that can end as time wasting ,bad team mates, it feels forced content

[SneakyErvin]

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Hard content is just one type of endgame. Yes, hard content that uses all of your gathered skill and equipment is an endgame. Participating in a clan or social system is also an endgame. Building a base or holding territory is an endgame. Creative play like IkeaFrame is an endgame. Competitive content like PvP is an endgame. Maybe you should play some more games? 🙄

Well, yes, clearly I'm not getting it. So you're telling me you play lvl1-3 Earth missions? Because I don't believe you. Warframe has the same "30 zones" you describe in Game A where you end up with 3 of them are useful. "Zones" here just being activities vs geographical locations. Warframe's end-of-progression "zones" are modes like Kuva Survival, Fissures, SP, ESO, and the Circuit. Those are the useful "zones" you describe in Game A. It's identical, again just not geographically.

This:

is just this:

With a different format.

I will let @SneakyErvin answer that:

Very well put!

Though since we're in a thread about Incarnon Adapters, consider this: in Nightwave when you already own an item you get an alternate Cred reward you can spend on whatever other reward you want. The same does not apply to the Circuit; you just get duplicate Adapters you can't use. Being able to choose something other than an Adapter for your Tier 5/10 reward, or being able to turn in unwanted duplicate Adapters for a token like Pathos Clamps or standing, would turn the big one-off main prize you'll stop caring about by September into something that always has at least some sort of value. You could then receive some of the existing evergreen rewards from Acrithis or the Holdfasts.

Nope those things you mention arent endgame, since they are accessible whenever you want throughout your progression. They can be activities you can focus more on when you've reached endgame since you no longer progress at the same pace as when you do going through the game. However they will never be endgame content. PvP is practically the only thing you bring up that could be endgame, and that is if it actually gives something specific at that point in the game. Look at GW2, BGs arent endgame, since they are accessible from level 1 and provide nothing except fun. However RvR or WvW if you prefer is endgame, since it is a constant struggle that also benefits from the gear you've collected throughout your journey. Sure it is accessible early on aswell, but it "scales" to actually serve as endgame in that game. Just as conclave isnt endgame here, but Dark Sectors were since they actually impacted something in the game that was used by players. 

And the map of GW2 you provide along with the list of modes in WF is not a comparison of something that is the same. You forget that GW is restricted to level bands to be useful and you'll only use the absolutely latest zones because only those provide the mats you need and the mats that actually sell to make gold. In Vanilla GW2 that ended up being the last 2 Risen zones of the whole game, where you ran around to mine orichalcum aswell as killing the world boss encounters like Grenth. The only time something else was visited was when dragons were up or if you went back to gather materials to level profession you had ignored while leveling.

It's also odd you say "So you're telling me you play lvl1-3 Earth missions?". Well yes uhm we do/did depending whatever level the fissure modifier puts them at. Atleast it was required to do those low level missions prior to SP fissures in order to crack Lith relics. Or maybe you had some trick that didnt require doing pre-determined fissures? Right now I still do Earth nodes for exactly the same reason. Are you completely oblivious to that SP applies to all nodes? So we go to the places where we need materials from at the given moment while also recieving the evergreen (SE) for doing so. Which is far from the same as a handful of zones in other games. If I sit down to do survival I can do it equally as rewarding on any planet I want in SP, the only difference is what planet specific loot that drops and a slight fluctuation in levels, which really doesnt matter. Just that we have something like SP means that we arent restricted to zones like in other games, since everything is available with that modifier across the star chart. So we have several ways to reinteract with past content of the game, some being fully free in choice, other pieces being restricted like fissures, arbis, incursions and invasions. In other games you have the predetermined "endgame" zone(s) and nothing else. Sure we wont revisit every single node or mission type, but thinking we should or that adding evergreens to everything is a far fetched idea, since the same places would still get avoided because something else would be better.

And while I think Bile would be a nice evergreen reward, I have plenty of places to go to collect it when needed. Everything doesnt have to reward the exact same thing. The Void, Circuit, Excav, Corpus Ship missions and so on along with generic Nav drops are plenty enough across the game. If everything awared the same even fewer places would be revisited by players because the most efficient one would be the one used nearly exclusively.

The point in adding something for the 5 and 10 tier is meaningless, since it wouldnt be worth to actually run the mode to get those rewards when they are obtained quicker elsewhere. And it wouldnt help people starving for clamps for instance, since if you've gotten all adapters chances are you sit on a massive pile of excess clamps due to having done Duviri Experience or Lone Story for quite a while aswell. If I'm at a point where I'm fully done with Duviri aside from Acrithis weekly evergreens, there is no way I'd sit down to slog through Circuit to get 2 duplicate items to turn in for a measly amount of clamps when I can just do a bunch of lone story runs instead for a much higher and faster reward. Just as I currently dont do circuit aside from getting the adapters that I cant get elsewhere, I wont stay to farm relics, since they are quicker to obtain through the Duviri Experience. Same principle for evergreens overall, whichever place awards them the quickest way will be used, which would apply across the whole game.

11 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Uh, of course it's endgame? That's literally what I've been saying. Please keep up. It's the narrow definitions like Sneaky's that's saying none of that is endgame. Again, since it seems you don't know who is saying what, here is Sneaky:

I never said we dont have endgame. But those same things brought up have also shifted over the years from being endgame to becoming midgame activities. Though I do not consider or agree with the things that can be done at any point in your progression as being endgame content. They can be endgame goals, but they can be done at any point in time of the game so do not class as actual endgame content. There is in the end a difference between what your personal endgame is and what actual endgame content is. Since you personally consider endgame evergreen content, then I really dont see why you complain, since at that point everything is endgame and everything by defualt is evergreen because we have helminth, hundreds upon hundreds of weapons to get mats for, tokens to farm for rerolling rivens, slivers to farm to buy rivens, materials to farm to turn in for other materials, massives and infinite amounts of cosmetics/decorations to buy for currency obtained from a multitude of modes etc. You seem to be of the idea that no matter where you go you want to be able to turn in what you get for whatever you want, otherwise it isnt rewarding evergreen enough.

19 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I think this explanation should've ended the argument. Anything posted after this, in opposition, would be inadequate and pointless. Great job here @SneakyErvin!!

The beauty of DE's gameplay design with Warframe is always that "Oh yeah!" or "Aha!!" moment when specific resources or mods are obtained or desired. I recently did an Index farm with a buddy short on credits and completely forgot that the Index is also one of the best endo farming locations due to the constant gold rank mods the enemies drop. As old as the Index is, it serves as a perfect example of older content retaining very high value. 

Yeah they are good at giving a reason to go back to most content they release. Sure there are a few that are lacking and more finite in use, but there is nothing wrong with some content being like that. Atleast the majority of modes and tiles get re-used frequently.

[PublikDomain]

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

PvP is practically the only thing you bring up that could be endgame, and that is if it actually gives something specific at that point in the game.

And that's why I say you're being overly narrow. If your only concept of "endgame" is raids and PvP, then what do you suppose you do at the end of games like Farm Simulator or Animal Crossing? Where's the PvP? Where are the high level zones? They don't exist, because there are other types of endgame out there that many other games employ. If you want to put blinders on and remain ignorant of that then I'm not gonna be able to convince you otherwise. Spoons aren't the only type of silverware, Sneaky.

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well yes uhm we do/did depending whatever level the fissure modifier puts them at.

Which is a fissure, not the starchart version. It's a separate activity with separate evergreen value. You do not go here:

You go here:

Again, you're conflating geographic location ("it's located on Earth" or "it's located a Risen zone") with the activity ("it's a Fissure" or "it's fighting Grenth"). If Grenth - same world boss, same level, same everything - were physically moved to the Caledon Forest, would it suddenly become early-game content just because it's geographically located in a starter zone?

10 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Since you personally consider endgame evergreen content, then I really dont see why you complain, since at that point everything is endgame and everything by defualt is evergreen because we have helminth, hundreds upon hundreds of weapons to get mats for, tokens to farm for rerolling rivens, slivers to farm to buy rivens, materials to farm to turn in for other materials, massives and infinite amounts of cosmetics/decorations to buy for currency obtained from a multitude of modes etc.

I'll answer you the same way I answered Voltage, who recently asked me the same kind of thing: it's because Warframe can always get better. This is a game that has always evolved and improved and reworked itself to be better and has never sat still. We didn't always have a bunch of evergreen rewards, those had to be added. We didn't always have token shops, those had to be added. The game has always gotten better over time, and better is better than not better. We have some evergreens and token shops, and those are all good, but we could have more, and that would be better. So instead of wallowing contently in stagnant mediocrity I'd rather push for improvement. Warframe has flaws, as does anything, and those flaws can be addressed and minimized and improved upon.

Having fewer reasons to do the Circuit (or Kahl or Archons or Arbitrations or Eidolons or any other activity) is a bad thing. The main rewards suddenly becoming useless removes a reason to continue doing these activities.

Having more reasons to do the Circuit (or Kahl or Archons or Arbitrations or Eidolons or any other activity) is a good thing. Ensuring the main reward remains useful adds a reason to continue doing these activities.

ETA: And that, in the context of a live service game, is super important. Retention is a very important metric. The more a person plays a game, the more likely they are to spend on that game. The less a person plays a game, the less likely they are to spend on that game. For example, I do not and can not spend any money on Genshin Impact when I do not play Genshin Impact. Even if I did play that game at some point, when I stopped playing they would stop being able to make any money on me. Which circles back to the purpose of creating and maintaining an endgame in a live service game like this one: to keep people playing. So any content that keeps a player playing after they've reached the end of their progression is endgame content, even if it doesn't involve challenging a player's skill or whatever narrow definition you have. Not every component of every endgame activity will be purely evergreen in every possible aspect, like the modes that offer one-off skins (or in this case, Adapters), but that content will be much more effective at doing its job the more evergreen its component parts are.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

And that's why I say you're being overly narrow. If your only concept of "endgame" is raids and PvP, then what do you suppose you do at the end of games like Farm Simulator or Animal Crossing? Where's the PvP? Where are the high level zones? They don't exist, because there are other types of endgame out there that many other games employ. If you want to put blinders on and remain ignorant of that then I'm not gonna be able to convince you otherwise. Spoons aren't the only type of silverware, Sneaky.

Which is a fissure, not the starchart version. It's a separate activity with separate evergreen value. You do not go here:

You go here:

Again, you're conflating geographic location ("it's located on Earth" or "it's located a Risen zone") with the activity ("it's a Fissure" or "it's fighting Grenth"). If Grenth - same world boss, same level, same everything - were physically moved to the Caledon Forest, would it suddenly become early-game content just because it's geographically located in a starter zone?

I'll answer you the same way I answered Voltage, who recently asked me the same kind of thing: it's because Warframe can always get better. This is a game that has always evolved and improved and reworked itself to be better and has never sat still. We didn't always have a bunch of evergreen rewards, those had to be added. We didn't always have token shops, those had to be added. The game has always gotten better over time, and better is better than not better. We have some evergreens and token shops, and those are all good, but we could have more, and that would be better. So instead of wallowing contently in stagnant mediocrity I'd rather push for improvement. Warframe has flaws, as does anything, and those flaws can be addressed and minimized and improved upon.

Having fewer reasons to do the Circuit (or Kahl or Archons or Arbitrations or Eidolons or any other activity) is a bad thing. The main rewards suddenly becoming useless removes a reason to continue doing these activities.

Having more reasons to do the Circuit (or Kahl or Archons or Arbitrations or Eidolons or any other activity) is a good thing. Ensuring the main reward remains useful adds a reason to continue doing these activities.

ETA: And that, in the context of a live service game, is super important. Retention is a very important metric. The more a person plays a game, the more likely they are to spend on that game. The less a person plays a game, the less likely they are to spend on that game. For example, I do not and can not spend any money on Genshin Impact when I do not play Genshin Impact. Even if I did play that game at some point, when I stopped playing they would stop being able to make any money on me. Which circles back to the purpose of creating and maintaining an endgame in a live service game like this one: to keep people playing. So any content that keeps a player playing after they've reached the end of their progression is endgame content, even if it doesn't involve challenging a player's skill or whatever narrow definition you have. Not every component of every endgame activity will be purely evergreen in every possible aspect, like the modes that offer one-off skins (or in this case, Adapters), but that content will be much more effective at doing its job the more evergreen its component parts are.

Different games and genres mate. Endgame in something like AoW2 is everything you do past round X for instance. We are talking about arpgs, looter shooters and mmorpgs here, since it is where WF ends up in comparison to other games. I'm also not sure why you also assume I refer to raids and PvP as the only endgame. I mean, were arbitrations raids or PvP? Eidolons? Circuit? I'm saying the things you can engage with at any time that are just personal "endgame" goals arent endgame content. What is so hard to grasp with that?

You really dont get my point. What I'm talking about is that we re-use all early content, which you do not do in games like GW2. That we also have seperate game modes that takes place on those tiles doesnt matter. That is what you blabbered on about to begin with, that we dont have enough evergreens so content goes unused. If Grenth switched to Caledon it wouldnt make Caledon an endgame zone, just as none of the zones that house the dragons are endgame zones either even if people go there to kill the dragons when they spawn. It would make the zone used again though, so an evergreen goal would be achieved, similar to how everything has evergreen potential in WF already due to the nature of the rewards and how much we need of them. Not everything is in the rotation rewards, most comes from simply playing on the planet overall. Circuit is really the outlier because most of the rewards are tied to the tiers.

So now suddenly the DE list you quoted isnt evergreen then since you claim we didnt have evergreen rewards prior to the shops? But everything that drops in the game is effectively evergreen and nearly all missions have something such as endo as rewards, which you aswell quoted as evergreen. So which is it, do you agree with the DE list where everything is evergreen (including arcanes and cosmetics) or do you have a definition you can provide that comes from your own mind? Like I said, you and others say "evergreen" and "endgame" about things, but you dont explain at all what you mean. Instead you post something vague which applies to everything we have in the game and say "more". More of what of those things?

And what is bad about content getting finished by players? Not everything can be appealing at all times, especially not when there are so many different content pieces in a GAAS game. Or do you want something mindnumbing like D3 where you only run Nrifts and Grifts 24/7 just so content cannot die out naturally overtime? I'm also not sure why you bring up Archons and Kahl since those two modes have one of the rewards that will likely last the longest as worthwhile since we have so many frames that the shards can be used on. Also, what rewards would you place in Circuit to make it worthwhile without overshadowing other content pieces?

And with live service games releasing new content is the main pull to keep players or attract people to come back. Regarding endgame you are still wrong. It isnt the content you do after you've reached the end of your progression, it is the content that allows you to reach the end of your progression at that point in time. When you've reached that point you are ready for the next endgame content addition. In WF that content is wider though since the game isnt linear in progression. 

Eidolons, Arbitrations, SP, SP Duviri, SP Circuit, Liches/Sister and Orphix are all endgame activities since each of them reward you with what could be considered endgame upgrades/progression. SP fissures for instance are also endgame content since they also bring the same endgame progression that SP does, normal fissures however arent since they provide star chart progression only. They can however be used to meet your personal endgame goals, like farming primes you still havent obtained, or if you need to farm void traces.

[PublikDomain]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Regarding endgame you are still wrong. It isnt the content you do after you've reached the end of your progression, it is the content that allows you to reach the end of your progression at that point in time.

Ok, so what you're describing here is this:

1. Earlier content, whatever who cares we're not talking about that
2. The content that allows you reach the end of your progression ← according to you, this is the endgame
3. The content you do after you've reached the end of your progression ← according to you, this is not?

Then what do you call #3? End-endgame? Super-endgame? Endgame+? Because whatever you want to call it, that's clearly what I've been talking about this entire time. The stuff you do at the end, not the very last set of stuff you do leading up to that point. No wonder it's so confusing talking to you about this when you insist something in the middle of the list is actually the end. 🤦‍♀️

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What I'm talking about is that we re-use all early content

We reuse all early geographic locations. You do not play the lvl 1-3 E Prime Starchart mission. That is not the part being re-used. What is reused are the art assets, the tiles, the visual appearance, and that's it. If ArenaNet copy pasted the Caledon Forest so there was both a lvl 1-15 starter zone and a max level endgame zone, would the lvl 1-15 zone suddenly become an endgame zone too just because the content there has been re-used? No. And it seems that somewhere deep down in there you understand that:

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

If Grenth switched to Caledon it wouldnt make Caledon an endgame zone, just as none of the zones that house the dragons are endgame zones either even if people go there to kill the dragons when they spawn.

If you do some simple word replacement to make this statement of yours fit Warframe, wow it's suddenly the same thing I've been saying:

Quote

If SP switched to Earth it wouldnt make Earth an endgame zone, just as none of the zones that house the Liches are endgame zones either even if people go there to kill the Liches when they spawn.

Clearly the activity is what makes something endgame, not the location.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And what is bad about content getting finished by players?

Because then people stop playing the game? lol how do you think games like Warframe stay afloat? Think a little bit about how GaaS games function.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Also, what rewards would you place in Circuit to make it worthwhile without overshadowing other content pieces?

It's not like I've answered this question repeatedly or anything. Here, once again:

On 2023-08-02 at 9:39 AM, PublikDomain said:

Being able to choose something other than an Adapter for your Tier 5/10 reward, or being able to turn in unwanted duplicate Adapters for a token like Pathos Clamps or standing, would turn the big one-off main prize you'll stop caring about by September into something that always has at least some sort of value.

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Ok, so what you're describing here is this:

1. Earlier content, whatever who cares we're not talking about that
2. The content that allows you reach the end of your progression ← according to you, this is the endgame
3. The content you do after you've reached the end of your progression ← according to you, this is not?

Then what do you call #3?

1. Correct.

2. Yes, the content with the latest rewards for the time being. That is the endgame. But as I said, in WF it isnt linear, so past things can also be endgame since they have rewards tied to them that are effectively topping off your progression. As mentioned Arbis, SP, Eidolons, Orphix are all what can be considered endgame due to specific mods and arcanes. And content like Fissures also become endgame since it is now also tied to SP and those specific rewards. The main point is that content you can do at any time is never endgame content, but it can be a personal endgame activity.

3. No, at that point you play because you want to play to finish up something not directly tied to progression. Like if you've focused on maxing your power first, clearing all content, farming all endgame items and so on. You are at that point done with the endgame content, but you still have things you can do as personal endgame goals, but it doesnt make it endgame content. Say you've skipped some frame farm and now want to pick them up for mastery, that doesnt suddenly make Jackal, Tyl Regor or Sargas engame content all of a sudden even if it is at the end of the game for you.

So I'd call that personal goals, potentially in that case personal endgame goals since a person has decided to wait with that content until they are done with what they deem more important. And this isnt something new, since that view has been part of online games of this type and MMOs since they became a thing. It's like crafting in many games, people skip it until they've reached max level, that doesnt mean crafting is endgame content, just an activity players decided to save for their endgame. So people need to be aware what they mean, do you simply want things to occupy your time when you've reached the end, or do you want actual endgame content that gets you further for future releases?

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

We reuse all early geographic locations. You do not play the lvl 1-3 E Prime Starchart mission. That is not the part being re-used. What is reused are the art assets, the tiles, the visual appearance, and that's it. If ArenaNet copy pasted the Caledon Forest so there was both a lvl 1-15 starter zone and a max level endgame zone, would the lvl 1-15 zone suddenly become an endgame zone too just because the content there has been re-used? No. And it seems that somewhere deep down in there you understand that:

But I've never talked about it having to be endgame. You started to bring that up when all I simply pointed out was that we re-use all content and all of it effectively has evergreen rewards tied to them. I dont know where exactly you got into it having to be about endgame. For that matter E-Prime in SP is re-using the content aswell, since it is no different than going from Torment 1 to Torment 13 in D3 or going from the lowest to highest difficulty in any other ARPG, it is still the same exact tile with the same "encounters", just with mobs that scale differently aswell as having unique and new ones appear after a certain tier. For Caledon, no, the lower zone would not suddenly be endgame, but the zone itself would be re-used at a higher difficulty and it would be the same exact zone with higher mobs and maybe a few new addition. Still re-used in the end.

19 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Clearly the activity is what makes something endgame, not the location.

Yes and I havent said anything else. However you are wrong regarding the SP part, since it effectively makes Earth an endgame zone as a whole, all of Sol becomes endgame with the SP modifier since every single piece of content in SP rewards Steel Essence along with Acolyte related arcanes. Overall you are mixing up what we are discussing, which is evergreen aswell as endgame. But you seem confused about which is being discussed since earlier you claimed evergreen content is the same as endgame content. All of the discussion regarding zones and re-use is about the evergreen part. The discussion about endgame is tied to the activity itself. As in Grenth for example, where he'd be endgame content no matter which zone he'd be in, just like Rednose in the first zone of Black Desert or Kazzak in a mid tier zone of WoW etc. However SP is both. 

What you say about liches is also odd. The zones are clearly endgame since they house specific Lich missions, with specific enemies tied to liches/sisters, and at levels above the normal version. Does it make the zone evergreen is the question through? Well yes, since the rewards are the same along with other rewards ontop of it. In GW2 as a comparison only the dragon (or in the case if Grenth moved) is of higher level and the only thing people would fight. The rest of the zone would stay untouched and of the same low level it was before, with the same low level rewards it has without the dragon present etc. I'm not sure what it is that you want exactly at this point. Evergreen rewards on E-Prime? Only high level content or only low level content so everything is replayed and can all be classed endgame? I'm really not seeing where you are going at this point, since we have actual endgame content and we already have evergreen reasons for nearly all places and reasons to re-visit old content through the introduction of higher levels options for the tiles in several different ways. Currently you seem to complain for the sake of complaining, or you actually want crap added to the start chart so it specifically gets re-used even though it gets re-used through SP already.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Because then people stop playing the game? lol how do you think games like Warframe stay afloat? Think a little bit about how GaaS games function.

By adding new content on a constant basis.

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

It's not like I've answered this question repeatedly or anything. Here, once again:

But it holds no value anyways. Maybe take a look at what I asked and the words used. 

20 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

to make it worthwhile without overshadowing other content pieces?

Utter and total waste to add clamps to the tiers or a trade in for duplicate incarnons since there are already better ways to get whatever gets locked behind T5 and T10. You would need some very lucrative rewards for it to have any meaning. I can come up with something very simple that could be added and counts as evergreen according to DE and you. An Arcane of our choice, cannot pick the same for both the tiers. Let the player pick from all Eidolon and Duviri uncommons and rares.

Just that you suggest clamps make me wonder if you play the game anymore, since for me clamps have about as little or less value as endo and credits atm as a reward. And for anyone that actually cares about farming the rewards from Duviri, they are likely in a similar situation after having farmed arcanes.

[PublikDomain]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

3. No, at that point you play because you want to play to finish up something not directly tied to progression. Like if you've focused on maxing your power first, clearing all content, farming all endgame items and so on. You are at that point done with the endgame content, but you still have things you can do as personal endgame goals, but it doesnt make it endgame content. Say you've skipped some frame farm and now want to pick them up for mastery, that doesnt suddenly make Jackal, Tyl Regor or Sargas engame content all of a sudden even if it is at the end of the game for you.

Ok, so you call that "personal endgame goals". That's what I've been calling endgame. I think there's no distinction between the two, but if you want to insist on this pedantry I'll just call "endgame" "personal endgame goals" and "endgame players" to idk "post endgame players" to placate you so we can actually talk about the same thing and move on.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

By adding new content on a constant basis.

Maybe you've got a magic lamp that can just make more content, but I'm pretty sure DE doesn't. More new content costs more money. It takes constant effort and can never keep up with the rate players consume content, even with the artificial delays they're forced to implement. We've seen this time and time again: it's not sustainable.

Content that doesn't require this content upkeep is sustainable, and can sustain "post endgame players" between these "new content" drops. It's better to have sustainable "personal endgame goals" than to have "personal endgame goals" that evaporate and disappear and leave "post endgame players" nothing to do but leave.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I can come up with something very simple that could be added and counts as evergreen according to DE and you. An Arcane of our choice, cannot pick the same for both the tiers. Let the player pick from all Eidolon and Duviri uncommons and rares.

Congrats, you've cracked the code! Was is really so hard to find something worthwhile you could do with your extra unusable Adapters? That's what I've been talking about. Glad you finally understand and agree with me.

On the topic of Clamps being useful:

😱 Wowie you can use them to buy an Arcane! Maybe there could be more of them to choose from? And there other rewards, too, if you've collected all of your Arcanes or value other things more!? Gosh it's almost like using tokens is a more flexible way to implement this for a wide variety of people?

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Ok, so you call that "personal endgame goals". That's what I've been calling endgame. I think there's no distinction between the two, but if you want to insist on this pedantry I'll just call "endgame" "personal endgame goals" and "endgame players" to idk "post endgame players" to placate you so we can actually talk about the same thing and move on.

Maybe you've got a magic lamp that can just make more content, but I'm pretty sure DE doesn't. More new content costs more money. It takes constant effort and can never keep up with the rate players consume content, even with the artificial delays they're forced to implement. We've seen this time and time again: it's not sustainable.

Content that doesn't require this content upkeep is sustainable, and can sustain "post endgame players" between these "new content" drops. It's better to have sustainable "personal endgame goals" than to have "personal endgame goals" that evaporate and disappear and leave "post endgame players" nothing to do but leave.

Congrats, you've cracked the code! Was is really so hard to find something worthwhile you could do with your extra unusable Adapters? That's what I've been talking about. Glad you finally understand and agree with me.

On the topic of Clamps being useful:

😱 Wowie you can use them to buy an Arcane! Maybe there could be more of them to choose from? And there other rewards, too, if you've collected all of your Arcanes or value other things more!? Gosh it's almost like using tokens is a more flexible way to implement this for a wide variety of people?

There is a massive distinction between the two though, since one is a type of content and what you describe can be anything. Hence why people ask others to specify what they actually want for endgame content. Endgame content is in arpgs, looter shooters and mmorpgs what I describe, specific content to "test" players in their progression, content that also allows players to progress further to a new power peak. Something that gets added on throughout the life of the game. In WoW you had dungeons which leds to UBRS and LBRS, which then led to MC, Blackwing Lair and so on. And then in BC they added heroic dungeons aswell as a step another step in endgame before hitting up raids.

Magic lamp for more content? No DE releases content at a pretty good rate for a GAAS game. I mean they include small additions for new content aswell in between bigger updates, seems sustainable enough to me compared to other games. You live in a dreamworld if you think anything can be added that last forever, or that it is needed in the first place. In most games new releases tend to last for a month. Currently Duviri is on the third month and is still used for both the rotating rewards in circuit aswell as the chase for Arcanes in the duviri experience or in circuit for those that prefer that. That is also longer than most new gaas games last. So it is sustainable the way DE does things.

Clamps from Circuit would still not be worth it, since it would be a horrible way to get them if we'd need them for more things in the end anyways. A single Duviri Experience or Lone Story rewards a full purchase, while in Circuit you'd need to spend time equal to several experience or story runs. At the point where you'd get clamps or be able to trade in dupe adapters you'd already be done with circuit anyways and likely want to focus on experience for arcanes. And if you are done with arcanes aswell, then you likely bathe in clamps, or if you for some odd reason is starved, hitting up the wyrm would still be several times faster than circuit and hitting 2 specific tiers.

 

[PublikDomain]

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

There is a massive distinction between the two though, since one is a type of content and what you describe can be anything.

I don't agree with you in the slightest, but that doesn't matter since I've been talking about your "personal endgame goals" and not your "endgame". You just call it something weird, but now that I know your terms let's move on?

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No DE releases content at a pretty good rate for a GAAS game.

And they still can't keep up. DE was so behind on Duviri they had to move two full frame releases forward to pad for time (Voruna was originally planned to be a Duviri frame). Railjack was delayed for a long time and still had a lackluster release. Nightwave was originally intended to be pumping out 6 week or whatever short stories, now they sprawl for months and we're on our 5th Intermission in a row. Of the 10 Nightwaves, only 3 have been unique stories like originally intended. Dog Days is late and many other seasonal events have been delayed this year as well. Someone here is living in a "dreamworld", and it definitely ain't me. Wake up and pay attention. DE can't keep up and hasn't ever been able to. You might be taking your time crawling through content, but it's getting consumed far faster than that by the rest of us.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Clamps from Circuit would still not be worth it

So give enough Clamps that it would be worth it. This isn't hard to figure out. Maybe it's 20 Clamps? The more expensive items in Acrithis' shop go for about that, and that's the cost of installing one of the Adapters it replaces. Maybe it's 15 Clamps? That matches Rivens, another item that shows up in both the shop and the rotation rewards. Maybe it's 10 Clamps? The majority if items in each week's rotations are things like Arcanes and Forma, and cost 10 Clamps from the shop. That's the exact same cost of the "Arcane of our choice" you just suggested. So is it only acceptable to suggest a reward of this value when you say it?

[SneakyErvin]

12 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I don't agree with you in the slightest, but that doesn't matter since I've been talking about your "personal endgame goals" and not your "endgame". You just call it something weird, but now that I know your terms let's move on?

And they still can't keep up. DE was so behind on Duviri they had to move two full frame releases forward to pad for time (Voruna was originally planned to be a Duviri frame). Railjack was delayed for a long time and still had a lackluster release. Nightwave was originally intended to be pumping out 6 week or whatever short stories, now they sprawl for months and we're on our 5th Intermission in a row. Of the 10 Nightwaves, only 3 have been unique stories like originally intended. Dog Days is late and many other seasonal events have been delayed this year as well. Someone here is living in a "dreamworld", and it definitely ain't me. Wake up and pay attention. DE can't keep up and hasn't ever been able to. You might be taking your time crawling through content, but it's getting consumed far faster than that by the rest of us.

So give enough Clamps that it would be worth it. This isn't hard to figure out. Maybe it's 20 Clamps? The more expensive items in Acrithis' shop go for about that, and that's the cost of installing one of the Adapters it replaces. Maybe it's 15 Clamps? That matches Rivens, another item that shows up in both the shop and the rotation rewards. Maybe it's 10 Clamps? The majority if items in each week's rotations are things like Arcanes and Forma, and cost 10 Clamps from the shop. That's the exact same cost of the "Arcane of our choice" you just suggested. So is it only acceptable to suggest a reward of this value when you say it?

Obviously you dont, but that doesnt matter since your experience with these types of games seem very limited.

No GAAS game can keep up with veterans. And I guess DE realized the same as some other companies, that focusing on story content similar to that of NW isnt worth it compared to just a regular "battle pass" approach. It's like when Secret World created and sold "comics" for the game, short little story content pieces that never made up for the costs involved to make them. I'm kinda glad DE ditched the NW stories. Dog Days is overall also pointless content in my mind that shouldnt even be considered when talking about content releases, which are major additions to the game, like Duviri. And while Duviri was delayed, it was also struck by the whole Covid mess since everything shifted places. Which is also not isolated to DE, that still managed to cope with the situation and give us other things.

15, 20 or even 30 clamps would result in it being a total waste to do. Do you not have the slightest concept of reward vs time here? Looking at the vendor and going "hmm this many can buy 1 of those" doesnt really work, since it is about the time it takes to go from rank 1-5 and then to 10 just to get those rewards compared to getting them elsewhere. This isnt some additional reward, this is a reward you would go there to farm actively. And why would I if I can get 3-4 times as many just doing Experience and getting 9-12 arcanes at the same time? Why would I spend more time getting far less just because it is added as "evergreen" to get the content to be played beyond the point of getting the incarnons. I'm already replaying the Circuit content while doing Experience since I do atleast 5 undercrofts per run.

Not sure how you think it is the same as my suggested guaranteed chosen arcane. That arcane would get us to run Circuit specifically for both tier 5 and 10. Clamps are simply clamps that are just as guaranteed to get as rewards from Experience and Lone Story, even on non-SP. So what would be my reason to go to Circuit for the clamps if they buy the same as as clamps from elsewhere? What would be my reason to do Circuit for dupe adapters to turn in for clamps when I can just get clamps as is from Experience or Lone Story?

[PublikDomain]

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

15, 20 or even 30 clamps would result in it being a total waste to do. Do you not have the slightest concept of reward vs time here?

Well you suggested a reward worth less than that, so I really don't understand why you're acting like more than that is suddenly not enough.

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Not sure how you think it is the same as my suggested guaranteed chosen arcane. That arcane would get us to run Circuit specifically for both tier 5 and 10. Clamps are simply clamps that are just as guaranteed to get as rewards from Experience and Lone Story, even on non-SP. So what would be my reason to go to Circuit for the clamps if they buy the same as as clamps from elsewhere? What would be my reason to do Circuit for dupe adapters to turn in for clamps when I can just get clamps as is from Experience or Lone Story?

I don't really see why this is so hard to spell out to you, but ok. Here, it's really simple:

You say we should be able to pick 2 Arcanes instead of 2 Adapters for doing Tier 5 and 10.

2 Arcanes costs 20 Clamps.

If you can trade in 2 Adapters for 20 Clamps, you could get the same 2 Arcanes.

Now unless you're saying that 2 does not in fact equal 2, it's the same. How is it not the same? You get 2 Arcanes. The same 2 Arcanes. 2 = 2. The only way it would be different is if Adapters were worth more than 10, which would be totally reasonable, in which case you could get more than just 2 Arcanes. You could get 3 Arcanes! Or 4! And since Clamps are simply Clamps, someone with "personal endgame goals" different than SneakyErvin could exchange those Clamps for things other than Arcanes. Like Forma or Adapters or Rivens or Kuva or Bile or decorations or whatever.

And how are you really gonna ask "why would I do the Circuit for duplicates" when that's literally the entire point of letting you pick something other than those duplicates??? Yeah, that's been my question, why would you?

9 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

No GAAS game can keep up with veterans.

Yes? That's what I'm saying. And that's why they create many "personal endgame goals" so that post-"endgame" players can stay engaged without needing new content. PvP, social systems, constructive play, challenge, etc. Y'know, evergreen content. Everyone does it, even DE:

Quote

With Veilbreaker comes a weekly approach to the systems introduced in this update. We want a variety of options for players to plan Daily, Weekly, and Evergreen goals. 

Gosh now just why do you think DE might want to have this variety of options for players? Because "no GAAS game can keep up with veterans". 😮

[Jujunul]

i don't get how you cry about fomo but not pathos clamp. 
there is only one way to get them 
that way is the worse bugged S#&$ i have ever seen : 
more than half my bounty end up bricking (with bugs that were fixed but not anymore... just how?)
like i love being a space ninja ... being a weakling that can't run is S#&$.
not being able to control my character (cause plenty of area cc) is S#&$.
the biggest problem with incarnon is not fomo or forcing you to make a choice its to farm those pathos clamp. 
i like circuit i find it fun to make new builds fo it, decree are cool. 
i just don't unlock incarnon cause of pathos clamp... 
like wtf is this. how can this be so badly design and debug?

[PollexMessier]

The weekly stuff is incredibly annoying. I was aggressively against everything about nightwave when it was released, and WF just keeps pushing this crap. Put timers like this on stuff and you take it from "I wanna play this part of the game because I want this thing and that's just what I wanna do" to "I have to do this this week even if I dont want this thing in case the devs buff it to be good on a whim, or I'll have to wait god knows how long until I can get it again"

It turns the dynamic of the game from a game, to a chore. Weekly timers make games worse. Month long+ wait times make games works. Time limited content makes games worse. I absolutely hate how much of this trash is in games nowadays. Just stop. It's hard enough finding the time to play games as it is when they're not putting themselves on a schedule.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Well you suggested a reward worth less than that, so I really don't understand why you're acting like more than that is suddenly not enough.

I don't really see why this is so hard to spell out to you, but ok. Here, it's really simple:

You say we should be able to pick 2 Arcanes instead of 2 Adapters for doing Tier 5 and 10.

2 Arcanes costs 20 Clamps.

If you can trade in 2 Adapters for 20 Clamps, you could get the same 2 Arcanes.

Now unless you're saying that 2 does not in fact equal 2, it's the same. How is it not the same? You get 2 Arcanes. The same 2 Arcanes. 2 = 2. The only way it would be different is if Adapters were worth more than 10, which would be totally reasonable, in which case you could get more than just 2 Arcanes. You could get 3 Arcanes! Or 4! And since Clamps are simply Clamps, someone with "personal endgame goals" different than SneakyErvin could exchange those Clamps for things other than Arcanes. Like Forma or Adapters or Rivens or Kuva or Bile or decorations or whatever.

And how are you really gonna ask "why would I do the Circuit for duplicates" when that's literally the entire point of letting you pick something other than those duplicates??? Yeah, that's been my question, why would you?

Yes? That's what I'm saying. And that's why they create many "personal endgame goals" so that post-"endgame" players can stay engaged without needing new content. PvP, social systems, constructive play, challenge, etc. Y'know, evergreen content. Everyone does it, even DE:

Gosh now just why do you think DE might want to have this variety of options for players? Because "no GAAS game can keep up with veterans". 😮

No I didnt. And you clearly dont get it. Yeah you are right that the value is the same as 2 arcanes from a vendor, but that doesnt matter because that isnt enough to get someone to pick Circuit over Duviri, since over the same course of time in Duviri you'd get several times more clamps and could then buy more arcanes for less time spent, or if they are limited in supply skip weeks on end. What I'm suggesting are 2 arcanes that require you to play Circuit just like now to get them at tier 5 and 10 so you cannot just skip it to get them through Duviri clamp grinding. None of what you suggest would make Circuit more appealing if people are farming for vendor loot since all other Duviri modes would grant far more clamps quicker to buy those vendor items. The 4 other Duviri modes would also grant more misc Duviri materials aswell that can be traded in for other materials aswell. Just as people dont grind for arcanes in Circuit right now, because they are accessible quicker and more reliably elsewhere.

It still doesnt answer the question why I should do Duviri for dupes or in this case clamps when there are much faster ways to get those things. Like I asked, what would be worthwhile evergreens from Circuit? Clearly clamps arent when you can get far more of them elsewhere.

Out of the systems you mention only PvP tends to improve player retention. Social systems tend to do it in RP heavy games and mostly when it comes to MMOs that enable such gameplay. WF isnt one. WF like many other similar games rely on new playable content that allows players to advance further or to the side. The main pull of these types of games is the loot hunt and slaughtering of mobs at a massive rate. Even with MMORPGs it is rare to see one that survives on social aspects, since those parts of the game tend to decline as new content isnt released to attract players, hence why guilds/clans die etc. from new games having poor endgame content, or older games slwoing down endgame content releases.

And Veilbreaker is probably one of the worst additions added in a game due to the weekly nature and gameplay that lasts a total of 30 minutes per week. If it was truely an evergreen intent we'd be able to atleast grind archons for regular shards as much as we wanted to be able to play around with the full roster in different combinations. But right now it is more of a weekly chore.

[PublikDomain]

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What I'm suggesting are 2 arcanes that require you to play Circuit just like now to get them at tier 5 and 10 so you cannot just skip it to get them through Duviri clamp grinding.

Well that's not what you wrote:

On 2023-08-05 at 6:59 AM, SneakyErvin said:

Let the player pick from all Eidolon and Duviri uncommons and rares.

Maybe you missed the small detail that you can buy all of the Arcanes, even the new ones, from Acrithis for Clamps? You can already "skip" to get them through Duviri clamp grinding. Is this line of complaint based on another triviality you're stuck on?

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

None of what you suggest would make Circuit more appealing if people are farming for vendor loot since all other Duviri modes would grant far more clamps quicker to buy those vendor items.

So? Who cares? If someone would rather play the Experience instead then all the power to them. That's the nice part about having a varied endgame, sorry, "personal endgame goals": everyone can pick what they want to do for themselves. It's better to ensure that the Circuit (and other activities) remains valuable so people can choose to spend their time there, not forcing it like a tyrant. You could slog through the most efficient farm, I could just play the Circuit and have fun. We could each play the content we each personally value and each feel rewarded for it.

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It still doesnt answer the question why I should do Duviri for dupes or in this case clamps when there are much faster ways to get those things. Like I asked, what would be worthwhile evergreens from Circuit? Clearly clamps arent when you can get far more of them elsewhere.

Ok, then I'll answer my own question: there is currently no reason to play for dupes. I think they should add a reason to play for dupes. Then there would be a reason to play for dupes: because it's a fun mode and you can use those dupes for something. This is what you are arguing with me over: whether or not they should add reasons to play for dupes. I think they should, what do you think?

And what if we value different things as worthwhile evergreens, how do you suppose we can both have rewards we find valuable? Because I find your "choice of Arcane" downright valueless because I've already got the Arcanes I want. Your "choice of Arcanes" is junk to me. I'd rather get things like Forma or decorations. So what to do, what to do... Might I suggest a token system? Because then we could each just buy whatever rewards we think are worthwhile. You could get your Arcanes, I could get my Forma and decorations. Y'know, like the token system we already have? The token system that uses Clamps? 🤔

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Out of the systems you mention only PvP tends to improve player retention. Social systems tend to do it in RP heavy games and mostly when it comes to MMOs that enable such gameplay. WF isnt one. WF like many other similar games rely on new playable content that allows players to advance further or to the side. The main pull of these types of games is the loot hunt and slaughtering of mobs at a massive rate. Even with MMORPGs it is rare to see one that survives on social aspects, since those parts of the game tend to decline as new content isnt released to attract players, hence why guilds/clans die etc. from new games having poor endgame content, or older games slwoing down endgame content releases.

Well, maybe for you. But you're not everyone. Other people play to have fun with their friends and guildmates. Some people even say that fashion and decorations are their endgame. Crazy, right?

12 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And Veilbreaker is probably one of the worst additions added in a game due to the weekly nature and gameplay that lasts a total of 30 minutes per week. If it was truely an evergreen intent we'd be able to atleast grind archons for regular shards as much as we wanted to be able to play around with the full roster in different combinations. But right now it is more of a weekly chore.

Well then take that up with DE. They've said they want different types of daily/weekly/evergreen content, and it isn't hard to understand why. You can plug your ears to it if you'd like, I certainly know I won't be the one to get it through to you.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Well that's not what you wrote:

Maybe you missed the small detail that you can buy all of the Arcanes, even the new ones, from Acrithis for Clamps? You can already "skip" to get them through Duviri clamp grinding. Is this line of complaint based on another triviality you're stuck on?

So? Who cares? If someone would rather play the Experience instead then all the power to them. That's the nice part about having a varied endgame, sorry, "personal endgame goals": everyone can pick what they want to do for themselves. It's better to ensure that the Circuit (and other activities) remains valuable so people can choose to spend their time there, not forcing it like a tyrant. You could slog through the most efficient farm, I could just play the Circuit and have fun. We could each play the content we each personally value and each feel rewarded for it.

Ok, then I'll answer my own question: there is currently no reason to play for dupes. I think they should add a reason to play for dupes. Then there would be a reason to play for dupes: because it's a fun mode and you can use those dupes for something. This is what you are arguing with me over: whether or not they should add reasons to play for dupes. I think they should, what do you think?

And what if we value different things as worthwhile evergreens, how do you suppose we can both have rewards we find valuable? Because I find your "choice of Arcane" downright valueless because I've already got the Arcanes I want. Your "choice of Arcanes" is junk to me. I'd rather get things like Forma or decorations. So what to do, what to do... Might I suggest a token system? Because then we could each just buy whatever rewards we think are worthwhile. You could get your Arcanes, I could get my Forma and decorations. Y'know, like the token system we already have? The token system that uses Clamps? 🤔

Well, maybe for you. But you're not everyone. Other people play to have fun with their friends and guildmates. Some people even say that fashion and decorations are their endgame. Crazy, right?

Well then take that up with DE. They've said they want different types of daily/weekly/evergreen content, and it isn't hard to understand why. You can plug your ears to it if you'd like, I certainly know I won't be the one to get it through to you.

I cant help if you dont read things in context, since the part you quoted here is part of a small sections talking about T5 and T10 rewards to begin with.

That isnt the same since what you get from vendor is RNG per day, while in a system like Circuit you'd be able to pick 2 guaranteed each week. So there would be nothing to skip since this would be ontop of the others and guaranteed simply by spending the time. 

It wouldnt be instead (and I assume you mean Circuit and not Experience). Since it would be limited to a minimal amount per week. And if you only do what you think is "fun" then adding extra rewards as evergreen would be pointless, since you dont actually seem to care about getting rewards at that point. So you get the same "shinies" from a dupe adapter in the end. I mean, you are complaining that you get endo and credits from bonus tiers, but still want clamps which are almost worse already?

Sure it would be nice with something that brings us back there. But it also needs to be worth it, otherwise we end up with void storms. Useful when released but not nearly fast enough or as rewarding as fissures/SP fissures, so practically never done after getting the items exclusive to the mode. And clamps isnt what would bring people to play Circuit. Heck, the tier systems isnt what would bring people back. An implemented rotation system to the actual missions would be better, maybe adding handpicked radiated relics to it, relics that would make sense to radiate for a player. Steel Essence after say each 2 missions or something. Things that tie into the rest of the game so it doesnt feel so cut of from activities we normally do. Then add arcanes to the 5 and 10 tier.

At that point I'll say dream on. We already get the amount of forma (and so on) they want us to get from Duviri in the weekly offerings. And again, clamps wouldnt make people go do Circuit if clamps is what they are after, because again, far faster access to it comes from elsewhere. They'd also need to add a crapload of items to the vendor in order to keep up with the clamps gained from Experience and Story. Something they obviously wont do given what vendors already offer in the game. Currently I'm personally at the point where I wont really ever need to worry about not having clamps ever again, simply from farming arcanes in Experience, and this is with everything possible unlocked that clamps can unlock aswell. And more are coming in on a daily basis as I do a couple of Experience runs for the last few relics. And it would probably be the same even if they add clamps to tiers, since it would only be 2 tiers per week, meaning people interested in getting them would still head to Experience and just pile them up until the next week hits. That is if they havent already done so as they unlock the adapters and making their incarnon weapons.

"Some" being the keyword. Hence why clans/guilds tend to die out etc. Because "some" isnt sustainable. It also isnt a me thing. This is from observations in MMOs and similar games for the last 25 years. And it is always the same outcome due to the same cause. Really not even sure how you managed to turn what you quoted into a "Well, maybe for you" thing.

That is no excuse for them to add straight up chemical dumpsterfire content. I'm not arguing that different goals etc. isnt good, just that the way they are implemented is horrible. Veilbreaker could have easily nailed two aspects. Free grind for random normal shards = evergreen goal, weekly Kahl and Archon mission = weekly normal shard of our choice aswell as Tau goal. Instead they just straight up gated is so we use it 30 minutes at max per week.

[PublikDomain]

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt the same since what you get from vendor is RNG per day,

Ok, so they can add more daily options.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And if you only do what you think is "fun" then adding extra rewards as evergreen would be pointless, since you dont actually seem to care about getting rewards at that point.

I like having fun and being rewarded for my time. Crazy I know.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I mean, you are complaining that you get endo and credits from bonus tiers, but still want clamps which are almost worse already?

Good example, because I don't do the bonus tiers. I enjoy myself for the few hours that the Circuit is rewarding to me and leave when the "maybe you get Endo or Credits or an Arcane you already have lol" tiers show up. You know what would be a better bonus tier reward? Some Clamps. 😱

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But it also needs to be worth it, otherwise we end up with void storms.

Worth it for who? Who gets to decide what "worth it" means? You? Or maybe everyone should be able to decide for themselves what "worth it" means. Y'know, like with a token shop where people can choose the rewards they find "worth it"?

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And it is always the same outcome due to the same cause.

The cause being....? Clans drying up because they don't have anything to do? Because that's what I've observed over the "last 25 years".

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is no excuse for them to add straight up chemical dumpsterfire content.

lol, what?

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

On 8/8/2023 at 3:13 AM, PollexMessier said:

The weekly stuff is incredibly annoying. I was aggressively against everything about nightwave when it was released, and WF just keeps pushing this crap. Put timers like this on stuff and you take it from "I wanna play this part of the game because I want this thing and that's just what I wanna do" to "I have to do this this week even if I dont want this thing in case the devs buff it to be good on a whim, or I'll have to wait god knows how long until I can get it again"

It turns the dynamic of the game from a game, to a chore. Weekly timers make games worse. Month long+ wait times make games works. Time limited content makes games worse. I absolutely hate how much of this trash is in games nowadays. Just stop. It's hard enough finding the time to play games as it is when they're not putting themselves on a schedule.

This is exactly why I stopped doing kahl and now circuit.

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Ok, so they can add more daily options.

I like having fun and being rewarded for my time. Crazy I know.

Good example, because I don't do the bonus tiers. I enjoy myself for the few hours that the Circuit is rewarding to me and leave when the "maybe you get Endo or Credits or an Arcane you already have lol" tiers show up. You know what would be a better bonus tier reward? Some Clamps. 😱

Worth it for who? Who gets to decide what "worth it" means? You? Or maybe everyone should be able to decide for themselves what "worth it" means. Y'know, like with a token shop where people can choose the rewards they find "worth it"?

The cause being....? Clans drying up because they don't have anything to do? Because that's what I've observed over the "last 25 years".

lol, what?

Which doesnt solve the problem of evergreens added to Circuit to make people play it, since again those things are already stockpiled at this point in time. Plus how does more RNG items make a mode rewarding? Ah lets spend some hours here to maybe get a reward?

It isnt about if you do the bonus tier, just that you complain about the rewards that are equally as bad as clamps, or well clamps are equally as bad as.

Worth it for most people at that point in the game i.e done with static Circuit rewards (adapters). Which likely isnt more clamps at an extremely slow rate. I'm honestly not sure what you (as in you you) need clamps for at that point, or how you see any worth in them. Or how you'd see clamps rewarded at such a slow rate as rewarding for your time spent. So ask yourself aswell, who should it be worth it to? You? 

Yes that is exactly what I'm saying, clans having nothing to do since there is no endgame content to do, even in games with deeper clan activity systems, systems you refer to as endgame. I'm curious as to which games you've played that have had vast clan systems that have also managed to keep the game and clans alive for prolonged periods of time.