SP Circuit can be Cheesed Legitly as Operator; Why the Strict Random Choices?

[AceOfCayde]

4 hours ago, TheRoyalBrook said:

I enjoy randomization but randomizing focus schools -especially- would dramatically mess with people. And in a far less fun way. Got all your points in zenurik and often use it for energy on your builds? too bad, naramon. Meanwhile guns and frames can all be built and it offers you choices rather than locking you into a strict option.

I mean, I didn't exactly lay out a strict procedure for randomizing focus school and amps lol. They could give you a selection just like they do for weapons and warframes, and could provide some level of default focus school unlocks similar to the default mod loadouts that you can select if you don't have the focus school you choose up to snuff. If it's really that big of a problem to you then maybe you don't actually like the randomization, you just rely on using your focus school and amp of choice to overcome the challenges of the randomizer.

[AceOfCayde]

3 hours ago, RobouteRob said:

Have you tried playing circuit (especially a long one) with a mismatched wf-focus combo bruv? I know masochistic people exist but....lets not dig deeper into that.

No, I don't generally change my focus school when I do circuit because up until recently you couldn't see what your options were without entering duviri in some capacity, and I didn't want to jump in and out and change things and go through 3 loading screens in the process. So at this point I'm just kind of used to it, and rarely even use my focus school in circuit.

People seem to think that the randomization of gear serves one of two (or both) purposes: 1) Skill challenge/gear check, or 2) Incentivizing using different loadouts, and maybe farming/buying something you discover you like. IMO if either of those really are the purpose, then the same can easily be said for focus and amps.

For the record, I don't actually think it should be this way, but it's an example of the hypocrisy I've seen from several players on these forums. If someone really thinks it's a "challenge" or "gear check", then they should have no problem with the same challenge and gear check applying to focus and amps, rather than using their preferred focus school and amp as a crutch. Likewise, if the randomization is meant to incentivize variety and encourage people to farm or buy things they don't normally use, the same logic could be applied to amps and driving engagement toward the factions that offer them that many people have ignored up to this point. Focus school is a bit less relevant for the second rationale, but it still applies to some extent.

[DrivaMain]

To be fair, you need to grind focus a decent amount to get a decked-out operator and be very late in the stage of the game to boost your operator with Arcanes. Without bypassing the daily cap using Eidolon Shards, focus grinding may take you days. Remember, You cannot skip focus grind directly with platinum. 

Also, operators can also act as a way to help you contribute during The Circuit until you get a good decree set that immensely boost your weapons. Yes, that loaner stug you got is terrible at first, but after a few decrees, it will be viable. 

[RobouteRob]

1 hour ago, AceOfCayde said:

No, I don't generally change my focus school when I do circuit...

...and rarely even use my focus school in circuit.

Now I understand your standpoint a bit better,

I still think that it's kind of a waste dmg/support potential though...not picking a focus that's complementing your frames and weapons build. Especially when you need to carry other people.

But you be you bruv.

1 hour ago, AceOfCayde said:

because up until recently you couldn't see what your options were without entering duviri in some capacity

Either I need a new pair of glassess or you just made it up. I knew it was promised at the last devstream but the ability to peek my cave picks is still not here yet.

 

1 hour ago, AceOfCayde said:

People seem to think that the randomization of gear serves one of two (or both) purposes: 1) Skill challenge/gear check, or 2) Incentivizing using different loadouts, and maybe farming/buying something you discover you like. IMO if either of those really are the purpose, then the same can easily be said for focus and amps.

- Your first point is invalid since we have decrees which a huuuge crutch to support our randum gear as we slowly slog forward toward the level cap, and knowing shield gating is the only "skill" we need and I learnt it like....maybe 1 or 2 minute?

- Meanwhile your second point does not make any sense to me, I don't felt any incentive from using any different loadouts,

Felt forced to do pick whatever the rng spew out for me? yes.

But felt incentivized? by what? the 5 eevani, 2 dracroot and 10 siphilis round reward? Incarnon? I only build latron and bo, tested it and realize this kind of gimmicky weapon is not for me. Cavalero begs me to build the rest of my incarnon bp(?) I said to him "I'll do it whenever de turn more sane and put pathos as circuit's tier 10+ reward".

The randomization only have one purpose, making more dough for DE, which I don't have any problem with, but it is what it is.

And randomizing the focus and amp will only push away the last circuit goer that willing to endure that 3 long loading screen so that he can carry or at the very least does not become a liability for his team. At the very least I can see myself doing that.

[AceOfCayde]

2 minutes ago, RobouteRob said:

Either I need a new pair of glassess or you just made it up. I knew it was promised at the last devstream but the ability to peek my cave picks is still not here yet.

lol I thought I saw that it was implemented, that's my bad. I haven't actually played circuit in over a week because real life has demanded more of my time, and I don't consider the incarnons to be worth wasting the little time I do have for this game.

 

3 minutes ago, RobouteRob said:

- Your first point is invalid since we have decrees which a huuuge crutch to support our randum gear as we slowly slog forward toward the level cap, and knowing shield gating is the only "skill" we need and I learnt it like....maybe 1 or 2 minute?

- Meanwhile your second point does not make any sense to me, I don't felt any incentive from using any different loadouts,

Felt forced to do pick whatever the rng spew out for me? yes.

Just to be clear, these aren't my points, these are the points that people keep using to justify the randomizer the way that it is currently, and claiming they enjoy it because of point 1 or point 2, while also telling people "just use your operator with x focus school and x amp". My argument is that if they actually believe either of those points, then they should have no problem with their amps and focus school being randomized as well, because that's what they like, right? That's clearly not you, and I agree with most of what you've said.

 

Like I said before, I don't actually think focus and amp should be randomized. I also don't think the randomizer should be thrown out completely. But the way it's weighted right now is not fun for a lot of people, and to me it makes more sense to offer a positive incentive to people who choose to use the randomizer rather than force a negative experience on those who don't want it but do want to engage in the content that's locked behind it. Or at the very least, significantly improve the randomization.

[RobouteRob]

26 minutes ago, AceOfCayde said:

lol I thought I saw that it was implemented, that's my bad. I haven't actually played circuit in over a week because real life has demanded more of my time, and I don't consider the incarnons to be worth wasting the little time I do have for this game.

That's what I thought,

Damn bruv, You made me triple check all my orbiter consoles and option button just in case DE made the info page super small or hide it someplace not so obvious. But it's ok, all cool.

 

26 minutes ago, AceOfCayde said:

Like I said before, I don't actually think focus and amp should be randomized. I also don't think the randomizer should be thrown out completely. But the way it's weighted right now is not fun for a lot of people, and to me it makes more sense to offer a positive incentive to people who choose to use the randomizer rather than force a negative experience on those who don't want it but do want to engage in the content that's locked behind it. Or at the very least, significantly improve the randomization.

After read several more post above your first post, I can confirm that I am dumb.

Never knew I'm so prone to a knee jerk reaction....

 

[AceOfCayde]

31 minutes ago, RobouteRob said:

That's what I thought,

Damn bruv, You made me triple check all my orbiter consoles and option button just in case DE made the info page super small or hide it someplace not so obvious. But it's ok, all cool.

I'm so sorry 😭 I'm normally trying to fight against misinformation and I ended up becoming the very thing I hate.

33 minutes ago, RobouteRob said:

After read several more post above your first post, I can confirm that I am dumb.

Never knew I'm so prone to a knee jerk reaction....

'sall good, it was a healthy conversation nonetheless. 

[0_The_F00l]

On 2023-05-26 at 9:14 AM, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The point of this thread is to show that SP Circuit can be easily cheesed with a customized Operator (legitly) and it's not such an impressive feat to accomplish. Thus, why not just make it easier and more fun for the bigger casual playerbase? Also, I think extra Duviri intrinsics should be another form of currency for buying random (weapon choices) loadout rerolls. They are nonexistent of any use, atm.
Newer players are already overwhelmed by many layers of poorly explained content in Warframe and they, along with future generations, will be needed to grow the Warframe community.
For once I agree with the newbies, what's the point of making the game harder in this new game mode (if I can easily cheese it with the operator)? 
(Full live run of the SP Circuit Mission with only Operator in Video's Description)

Says you can complete SP circuit legitly with operator, and begs on behalf of new players.

Proceeds to do Void flood mission ,

Has maxed out setup on operator,

Extracts when defense mission is next by saying "i can't do that".

Yeah , very legit -_-

Better title would be i can do specific missions that don't require sustained damage or have a fail condition.

Besides that,

There are quite a few things wrong with the core expectations here , 

Firstly SP is not intended for new players ,

Maxed focus is not intended for new players , 

There is already a casual mode in the regular circuit ,

There are decrees that can make it more manageable that were not showcased.

This is a flawed argument in my opinion.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Says you can complete SP circuit legitly with operator, and begs on behalf of new players.

Proceeds to do Void flood mission ,

Has maxed out setup on operator,

Extracts when defense mission is next by saying "i can't do that".

Yeah , very legit -_-

Better title would be i can do specific missions that don't require sustained damage or have a fail condition.

Besides that,

There are quite a few things wrong with the core expectations here , 

Firstly SP is not intended for new players ,

Maxed focus is not intended for new players , 

There is already a casual mode in the regular circuit ,

There are decrees that can make it more manageable that were not showcased.

This is a flawed argument in my opinion.

I did the first defense round, that was the second defense round that I extracted from, fyi. A full rotation of the circuit is 5 rounds to do all 5 different game modes. Past live (stream) video shows me doing the "first" defense with amp and operator only, if you are skeptical. Also, defense is naturally the hardest game mode of circuit, even with traditional warframe loadouts, which is why I extracted from the second defense mission...this is already a common tactic even in public squads. You should be already aware of this. Folks even complained the enemies can one-shot the defense target in later ridiculous levels too.

The point of this thread post is to make SP Circuit content more accessible to mid-tier players. Newer players obviously haven't unlocked SP yet, depending on your definition of newer players. 

Also, as I've stated, what's the point in choosing a warframe and weapons, when the operator can do it all and better than their warframe's default loadouts?

The major flaw with the current Circuit system is that default loadouts are bad, not the actual choices per se. If players could at least choose their mods on the default loadouts, the majority of them wouldn't be complaining...

Either make everything random, including focus trees, or introduce a (forgiving) feature that can offer "rerolls" at a cost other than plat (like duviri intrinsics). The SP circuit is already easy to beat enough for veterans, why make it even harder for the mid-tier players? I had a friend complain that SP Circuit is not fun, but not hard...

If you want to make SP Circuit harder, then why not make it truly harder; randomize the focus schools per se! Why not force us to use default loadouts for all players too? That would be more fair for everyone, wouldn't it?

Edited May 30 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

47 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I did the first defense round, that was the second defense round that I extracted from, fyi. A full rotation of the circuit is 5 rounds to do all 5 different game modes. Past live (stream) video shows me doing the "first" defense with amp and operator only, if you are skeptical. Also, defense is naturally the hardest game mode of circuit, even with traditional warframe loadouts, which is why I extracted from the second defense mission...this is already a common tactic even in public squads. You should be already aware of this. Folks even complained the enemies can one-shot the defense target in later ridiculous levels too.

The point of this thread post is to make SP Circuit content more accessible to mid-tier players. Newer players obviously haven't unlocked SP yet, depending on your definition of newer players. 

Also, as I've stated, what's the point in choosing a warframe and weapons, when the operator can do it all and better than their warframe's default loadouts?

The major flaw with the current Circuit system is that default loadouts are bad, not the actual choices per se. If players could at least choose their mods on the default loadouts, the majority of them wouldn't be complaining...

Either make everything random, including focus trees, or introduce a (forgiving) feature that can offer "rerolls" at a cost other than plat (like duviri intrinsics). The SP circuit is already easy to beat enough for veterans, why make it even harder for the mid-tier players? I had a friend complain that SP Circuit is not fun, but not hard...

If you want to make SP Circuit harder, then why not make it truly harder; randomize the focus schools per se! Why not force us to use default loadouts for all players too? That would be more fair for everyone, wouldn't it?

My apologies i did not notice you were on the 5th stage.

My other points still stand , SP is not for casual or new players just as having a maxed out focus tree with top arcanes and amps is not for casual or new players.

You have,started this argument with the emphasis on "oh won't someone please think of the children" which makes your argument flawed and not relevant.

As to the concept of fun , fun is subjective , i enjoy the randomizer , it reduces the fatigue i feel when picking a loadout. Your friend doesn't enjoy it , that's fine i will prioritise my fun over your friends so i will ask him to play something else just as many of my friends don't find operator gameplay fun so your statement does not apply to them as they will not use operator in circuit.

I am perfectly ok if they randomised the focus schools too.

Though ... I have a feeling they might just remove them completely.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

24 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

As to the concept of fun , fun is subjective , i enjoy the randomizer , it reduces the fatigue i feel when picking a loadout. Your friend doesn't enjoy it , that's fine i will prioritise my fun over your friends so i will ask him to play something else just as many of my friends don't find operator gameplay fun so your statement does not apply to them as they will not use operator in circuit.

I am perfectly ok if they randomised the focus schools too.

Though ... I have a feeling they might just remove them completely.

The thing is if the SP Circuit was truly randomized, to where we are forced to pick default loadouts, where is the true skill or game knowledge regarding that? What separates a player with a random loadout from another player with a random loadout in SP Circuit, if they don't even get to choose the mods for their default loadouts? It might as will be poker at that point.

If you want SP Circuit to be the true test of skill and knowledge for the playerbase, let them choose their basic mods for the associated limited default loadouts (with default polarities).

Right now the only "good players" of SP Circuit are the high MR Players that invested in most weapon loadouts such as myself, and that is a small minority.

Folks argued that high MR doesn't equal a good player, but SP Circuit differs from this past view point. Does the majority of the playerbase truly want this mindset to change?

I would like players to actually be rewarded for making good choices in SP Circuit, than just picking decrees and item choices. Go further into that choice-system, let them pick their mods!

What separates a good player from a bad player in this current SP Circuit? It's time invested in min-maxing gear, not true skill or game knowledge...

This is all why I feel like embracing elitism or even competitiveness in regard to SP Circuit is almost arbitrary, just like the rest of most of Warframe's current game modes.

A good roguelite game is dominated by players that can make good choices, and Warframe's current SP Circuit is too RNG for that, atm.

Edited May 30 by CosmicHermitCrab

[TheRoyalBrook]

9 hours ago, AceOfCayde said:

I mean, I didn't exactly lay out a strict procedure for randomizing focus school and amps lol. They could give you a selection just like they do for weapons and warframes, and could provide some level of default focus school unlocks similar to the default mod loadouts that you can select if you don't have the focus school you choose up to snuff. If it's really that big of a problem to you then maybe you don't actually like the randomization, you just rely on using your focus school and amp of choice to overcome the challenges of the randomizer.

that's a stretch. There's a big difference in randomizing frames/weapons and granting you several choices than randomizing to one of a small selection of focus schools for you. That's more similar to randomizing your mods as well, which is a bit more of a nightmare than a fun experience. Strawmanning it doesn't help your point

[Packetdancer]

8 hours ago, AceOfCayde said:

For the record, I don't actually think it should be this way, but it's an example of the hypocrisy I've seen from several players on these forums. If someone really thinks it's a "challenge" or "gear check", then they should have no problem with the same challenge and gear check applying to focus and amps, rather than using their preferred focus school and amp as a crutch.

FWIW, personally? My primary objection to swapping out the active focus school is that the Thrax give you a honking great pile of Focus for taking them out over the course of a run, and so running the Circuit is often a super fast way to cap your Focus for the day. Even at high mastery levels. It only takes... what, 62 of the blue Thraxes to hit daily Focus cap for MR30? That sounds like a lot, but you can hit it faster than you'd expect across two decent runs of the Steel Circuit.

As a result, I know people sometimes go in there with a specific Focus school set not because of what it will do for them in there, but because that's the Focus school they want to funnel all that tasty Thrax-kill Focus into.

And given the way the game currently works, randomizing your Focus school would also randomize where that earned Focus goes. Moreover, given that we have a daily Focus cap, that could really mess with some people. You want to put all that focus towards Unairu to finish getting those last waybound nodes unbound? HAHA, joke's on you, your entire daily Focus cap just went to Madurai instead!

But, the other thing is that realistically, we only have 5 Focus schools. If you randomize it like you do anything else—giving people a couple of options in the Cave—giving even just three options at max intrinsics, you are literally still offering more than half of the schools anyway. Which just feels... sort of like why bother on the randomization, at least to me.

(And if you give them only two choices at max intrinsics, that potentially means you're giving someone only one at lower intrinsics... which means they get no choice, which feels like not the point of randomized choices—and not in line with the heart of the Circuit.)

Amps... eh. I mean, I don't think they'd do it, regardless, simply because they've demonstrated they don't want to figure out how to make modular stuff like kitguns and zaws work with the randomizer. So I don't imagine they'd want to do it for amps, which are also modular. I admit I'd prefer to run with my 747, simply for purposes of hosing down the Thrax 'ghosts' when they split up and do the annoying magnetic beams (and admittedly because that scaffold's alt-fire makes it easy to Last Gasp yourself back up). But if they did, I admit I'd personally mostly just shrug it off; it's not like it'd be the end of the world.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

A good player can pick a random weapon and make it work with a custom-made limited (lack of polarities) loadout. A bad player is only comfortable with weapons they understand...
The meta for picking choices for weapons/warframes in SP Circuit is to pick the "best item" or items the player is comfortable with. not knowing how to mod the actual items. Most folks I feel still don't know how to build certain weapons and warframes properly or effectively...and SP Circuit overlooks this widespread issue with premade default loadouts.
 

 

Edited May 30 by CosmicHermitCrab

[Frendh]

13 hours ago, AceOfCayde said:

claiming they enjoy it because of point 1 or point 2, while also telling people "just use your operator with x focus school and x amp".

Why would I lie about enjoying Circuit? Or anyone else for that matter.

13 hours ago, AceOfCayde said:

. My argument is that if they actually believe either of those points, then they should have no problem with their amps and focus school being randomized as well, because that's what they like, right? 

Your argument is like saying "Hey, since you like working out with 10kg weights then you must like working out with 20kg weights too. If you don't like working out with 20kg weights then you are a liar."

16 hours ago, AceOfCayde said:

For the record, I don't actually think it should be this way, but it's an example of the hypocrisy I've seen from several players on these forums. If someone really thinks it's a "challenge" or "gear check", then they should have no problem with the same challenge and gear check applying to focus and amps, rather than using their preferred focus school and amp as a crutch. Likewise, if the randomization is meant to incentivize variety and encourage people to farm or buy things they don't normally use, the same logic could be applied to amps and driving engagement toward the factions that offer them that many people have ignored up to this point. Focus school is a bit less relevant for the second rationale, but it still applies to some extent.

I don't have a problem with having focus school randomized and amp randomized. Because by the same template we get to choose at least one amp and school from the pool of ones we own.

 

8 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Folks even complained the enemies can one-shot the defense target in later ridiculous levels too.

This does not happen, defense target does not get destroyed in less than a second. Unless you are letting a large group of enemies attack it. Two or three enemies are not enough to get the job done. Not at level 9999. Not below.

Any player who pays a little bit of attention would know this. They can simply compare the kill time of an Excavator vs kill time of the Defense target. Huge difference.

If the target for some reason is still getting "one-shotted" for you, then contact support and/or make a bug report.

8 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The point of this thread post is to make SP Circuit content more accessible to mid-tier players.

I do not see any reason to make easy game mode easier.  If you can't do multiple rounds, then do less and restart. People seem to think they have a "right" to be able to comfortably do a certain amount of rounds. How many rounds are mid-tier players "owed"?

Seeing as decent players can level cap with default mods only, given a bit of luck with frames, there is plenty of room for mid-tier players to improve themselves.

8 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The major flaw with the current Circuit system is that default loadouts are bad, not the actual choices per se. If players could at least choose their mods on the default loadouts, the majority of them wouldn't be complaining...

Yes, default loadouts are quite bad compared to tuned player loadouts. But the game mode itself is really easy as far as Steel Path goes. Yes, most of the weapons are really bad even after you stack decrees. But between all the Warframe choices and all the weapon choices I always end up with something I can use. At least a lot of the melee weapons will reliably scale even with default mods.

So, it is not a flaw. It is a balancing issue.  If one can get good mods every time the mode becomes ridiculously easy every run.  And the sense of winning the lottery when one gets a good loadout would severely diminish.

8 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I had a friend complain that SP Circuit is not fun, but not hard...

This is expected. And there is no way I can argue against that. But do you think you can find any player who enjoys all the farms prior to Duviri update?

7 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

It might as will be poker at that point.

I will argue that poker takes a lot of skill.

7 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

What separates a good player from a bad player in this current SP Circuit? It's time invested in min-maxing gear, not true skill or game knowledge...

I have level capped with default mods on several occasions.  And I am not even all that good as far as skill goes.

If everyone in the squad uses default mods you need some luck with the Warframe draft.

7 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Folks argued that high MR doesn't equal a good player, but SP Circuit differs from this past view point. Does the majority of the playerbase truly want this mindset to change?

I am MR 11. Another MR 11 player joined us for a 2 hour run as limbo this monday. He got disconnected but he would have been fine.  We kept going and I think we ended up doing around a 2.5h run.

8 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

If you want to make SP Circuit harder, then why not make it truly harder; randomize the focus schools per se! Why not force us to use default loadouts for all players too? That would be more fair for everyone, wouldn't it?

It is not supposed to be fair for everyone. The same way Tridolons is not fair for everyone. It rewards people who have invested in their gear and accumulated skill and knowledge. 

7 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

This is all why I feel like embracing elitism or even competitiveness in regard to SP Circuit is almost arbitrary, just like the rest of most of Warframe's current game modes.

I do not see how elitism is bad.  People with better skills, more knowledge and more investment in items have an edge. Which is completely fair. You already mentioned someone who said the game mode is not hard. So how much elitism is there really?

For a "level up" game Warframe is one of the flattest games I know. The difficulty increase per hour of game content is really low.

6 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

 Most folks I feel still don't know how to use certain weapons and warframe properly or effectively...and SP Circuit overlooks this with premade default loadouts.

Good.

Edited May 30 by Frendh

[0_The_F00l]

3 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The thing is if the SP Circuit was truly randomized, to where we are forced to pick default loadouts, where is the true skill or game knowledge regarding that? What separates a player with a random loadout from another player with a random loadout in SP Circuit, if they don't even get to choose the mods for their default loadouts? It might as will be poker at that point.

You don't play poker much do you ? It's more than luck , that's why there is the term poker face. You absolutely need to know how to use the cards dealt to you.

The difference is going to be very obvious and self evident.

3 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

If you want SP Circuit to be the true test of skill and knowledge for the playerbase, let them choose their basic mods for the associated limited default loadouts (with default polarities).

Sure , but what's basic mods for you ? I would say let's exclude things like hunter munitions , galvanized mods , acolyte mods.

3 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Right now the only "good players" of SP Circuit are the high MR Players that invested in most weapon loadouts such as myself, and that is a small minority.

Rubbish , players that invested in multiple gear have it easier than those that have none that does not make them good players , they are simply more privileged. Privilege is a good thing to have.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Folks argued that high MR doesn't equal a good player, but SP Circuit differs from this past view point. Does the majority of the playerbase truly want this mindset to change?

High MR does not mean that the player has invested in all their gear , they can still be ESO warrior leeches for all i know, with a level and dump mentality , they will have the same problems as others at lower MR if they don't have the actual weapons.

I really don't care about the opinions that players may have on it. It doesn't matter in actual practice.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I would like players to actually be rewarded for making good choices in SP Circuit, than just picking decrees and item choices. Go further into that choice-system, let them pick their mods!
 

Limited modding options ? I can get behind , but you will have to mention what that limit would be.

Because if that ever happens , i suspect the mod capacity will be a function of your MR for unowned weapons.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

What separates a good player from a bad player in this current SP Circuit? It's time invested in min-maxing gear, not true skill or game knowledge...

I have this line in the sand about when a player stops being "new" ,

That is when they know what mods to use (at what level) on their weapons to be good enough to clear the star chart without using any forma or potatoes,

After a certain time playing the game , you can "know" what to build to get the most out of a weapon , 

What seperates them from "good" players?

The question becomes less about "what mods to use " and "how many forma to use" to get to the "it will clear anything you throw at it" stage of modding,

This is all still pretty independent of different gear , 

A skilled player , will be able to use all the gear together to make something workable with the limited tools at their disposal.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

This is all why I feel like embracing elitism or even competitiveness in regard to SP Circuit is almost arbitrary, just like the rest of most of Warframe's current game modes.

Where was there competition and on what basis ? It's either going to be psychological or friendly , one doesn't need to have the biggest numbers to win ina  co op game.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

A good roguelite game is dominated by players that can make good choices, and Warframe's current SP Circuit is too RNG for that, atm.

A good rogue lite game needs to have a balanced selection and functional variety.

Warframe is not well balanced and the variety is ... Present but not functional , 

There are gear where the difference between categories is pretty large , and even amongst categories of the same type there is further imbalance.

That is why before any other thing happens that difference needs to be reduced with a stat squish.

[AceOfCayde]

6 hours ago, TheRoyalBrook said:

that's a stretch. There's a big difference in randomizing frames/weapons and granting you several choices than randomizing to one of a small selection of focus schools for you. That's more similar to randomizing your mods as well, which is a bit more of a nightmare than a fun experience. Strawmanning it doesn't help your point

Please do feel free to explain how it's any different. Focus school and Amps are as much a part of your loadout as Warframes and Weapons, it's just a part that you personally don't want randomized because you rely on it.

[AceOfCayde]

6 hours ago, Frendh said:

Why would I lie about enjoying Circuit? Or anyone else for that matter.

Your argument is like saying "Hey, since you like working out with 10kg weights then you must like working out with 20kg weights too. If you don't like working out with 20kg weights then you are a liar."

I don't have a problem with having focus school randomized and amp randomized. Because by the same template we get to choose at least one amp and school from the pool of ones we own.

 

Idk, Frendh (love that name btw), but if it doesn't apply to you then I guess it doesn't apply to you :) But there are certainly far more aggressive folks who do consistently use the same "arguments" I presented. Also, on the topic of weights and weight training, there are different goals when weight training. Some people go for bulk, some people go for strength, and some people go for tone. So yes, in that analogy, it does apply for some people, but of course not all.

Edited May 30 by AceOfCayde
grammar

[AceOfCayde]

7 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

As a result, I know people sometimes go in there with a specific Focus school set not because of what it will do for them in there, but because that's the Focus school they want to funnel all that tasty Thrax-kill Focus into.

Focus going toward the focus school you're actively using is not the best, but I'm not sure how that could fix without some major changes.

7 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

But, the other thing is that realistically, we only have 5 Focus schools. If you randomize it like you do anything else—giving people a couple of options in the Cave—giving even just three options at max intrinsics, you are literally still offering more than half of the schools anyway. Which just feels... sort of like why bother on the randomization, at least to me.

I think two would be sufficient, and I don't think everything has to be tied to intrinsics. Not that I want that, but if it were done I think that would still be far more reasonable than the current weighting and number of choices for weapons and warframes.

7 hours ago, Packetdancer said:

Amps... eh. I mean, I don't think they'd do it, regardless, simply because they've demonstrated they don't want to figure out how to make modular stuff like kitguns and zaws work with the randomizer. So I don't imagine they'd want to do it for amps, which are also modular. I admit I'd prefer to run with my 747, simply for purposes of hosing down the Thrax 'ghosts' when they split up and do the annoying magnetic beams (and admittedly because that scaffold's alt-fire makes it easy to Last Gasp yourself back up). But if they did, I admit I'd personally mostly just shrug it off; it's not like it'd be the end of the world.

Amps are the one of the two that I wouldn't mind having randomized so much, but I understand the technical challenge behind randomizing modular weapons. That would be at least 4 layers of randomization for each option, and with the random numbers problem some people would probably end up with the equivalent of "I keep getting stug".

Edited May 30 by AceOfCayde
clarification

[TheRoyalBrook]

52 minutes ago, AceOfCayde said:

Please do feel free to explain how it's any different. Focus school and Amps are as much a part of your loadout as Warframes and Weapons, it's just a part that you personally don't want randomized because you rely on it.

Its easy, they're more comparable to mods. Namely in the type of boosts they give, as for amps? that's just a case where it'd be a -nightmare- for DE to try and randomize them. That's the same reason we don't have zaws or kitguns in circuit. It just can't be reasonably done. But focus schools? Okay, you want that, then we can go to randomizing mods as well. Almost as if its about fun rather than whatever you've got in your mind I enjoy out of it.  And like other people mentioned too about focus schools as well

Edited May 30 by TheRoyalBrook

[AceOfCayde]

2 minutes ago, TheRoyalBrook said:

Its easy, they're more comparable to mods. Namely in the type of boosts they give, as for amps? that's just a case where it'd be a -nightmare- for DE to try and randomize them. That's the same reason we don't have zaws or kitguns in circuit. It just can't be reasonably done. But focus schools? Okay, you want that, then we can go to randomizing mods as well. Almost as if its about fun rather than whatever you've got in your mind I enjoy out of it.  And like other people mentioned too about focus schools as well, but I'm getting the feeling what we say isn't something you want to listen to

I'll admit, I made some assumptions about your rationale. I completely agree with what you say about Amps, that's a technical hurdle that probably isn't worth pursuing at this time. I also understand what you're saying about Focus schools, but they're unique enough that it's a bit more nuanced than comparing them to just gear or just mods. They offer passives that can easily be equated to mods, but they also offer actual abilities that fall more in line with Warframes and their abilities. So they're kind of in between. 

I'm glad to listen to any opinion and rationale that someone has to offer, especially if it differs from my own, but I want that rationale to actually be presented so a conversation can happen. I apologize for assuming why you didn't want them randomized, but I appreciate you explaining your point of view.

Coincidentally, the "its about fun" argument is the same argument most people who don't like the randomizer in general use, because different people consider different things to be fun.

[Vryheid]

You can already do all of the game modes in Circuit elsewhere with non-randomized loadouts if you really want to. Like Defense or Excavation that much? Really want to use whatever braindead overpowered meta setup you have which lets you win just by spamming one ability over and over? Well I got good news, you already have that option in a whole bunch of existing star chart locations and game modes and you've had it for years. You're right that "different people consider different things to be fun", and for people like me who really enjoy the challenge of being forced to play as and alongside weapons/warframes they wouldn't use normally, Circuit is pretty much the only endgame option we've got. Anyone who wants to pick their specific loadouts already has 98% of the game levels and modes to choose from. 

The vast majority of players I talk to and interact with in Warframe really enjoy the randomness of Circuit and how it's set up currently, and I don't see the point in changing that to appease a few disproportionately vocal holdouts who want to trash everything that makes the game mode unique and/or interesting.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You don't play poker much do you ? It's more than luck , that's why there is the term poker face. You absolutely need to know how to use the cards dealt to you.

The difference is going to be very obvious and self evident.

Ok, counting cards should be legal then...

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Sure , but what's basic mods for you ? I would say let's exclude things like hunter munitions , galvanized mods , acolyte mods.

Yeah, I agree....

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

A skilled player , will be able to use all the gear together to make something workable with the limited tools at their disposal.

From only 8 (random) weapon picks with premade default load-outs...not much intelligence is involved in the decision-making of that. Let them choose their basic mods on the default loadouts. It's not like the current premade default loadouts test any intelligence from the players either, and some of them are actually unoptimized, atm.
You still didn't counter-argue why it's bad for everyone to choose basic mods on their default loadouts (my main argument), but nitpicked other minor details instead.

14 hours ago, Frendh said:

I do not see how elitism is bad.  People with better skills, more knowledge and more investment in items have an edge. Which is completely fair. You already mentioned someone who said the game mode is not hard. So how much elitism is there really?

For a "level up" game Warframe is one of the flattest games I know. The difficulty increase per hour of game content is really low.

This is true with the nature of how Warfame is designed. I admit it. However, my quoted statement's purpose wasn't to state that elitism is bad, but that it's pointless in this specific game, atm. "For a "level up" game Warframe is one of the flattest games I know. The difficulty increase per hour of game content is really low."

 

Edited May 30 by CosmicHermitCrab

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, Vryheid said:

You can already do all of the game modes in Circuit elsewhere with non-randomized loadouts if you really want to. Like Defense or Excavation that much? Really want to use whatever braindead overpowered meta setup you have which lets you win just by spamming one ability over and over? Well I got good news, you already have that option in a whole bunch of existing star chart locations and game modes and you've had it for years. You're right that "different people consider different things to be fun", and for people like me who really enjoy the challenge of being forced to play as and alongside weapons/warframes they wouldn't use normally, Circuit is pretty much the only endgame option we've got. Anyone who wants to pick their specific loadouts already has 98% of the game levels and modes to choose from. 

The vast majority of players I talk to and interact with in Warframe really enjoy the randomness of Circuit and how it's set up currently, and I don't see the point in changing that to appease a few disproportionately vocal holdouts who want to trash everything that makes the game mode unique and/or interesting.

This is a fair point, but we are worried it might be too limiting, atm. There is a need for balance with such a game mode and atm it's too limiting for mid-tier players. At least let them choose their basic mods for the default mod loadouts instead of just giving them poorly optimized premade default loadouts nor awesome (brainless) premade default loadouts. Both extremes are problematic...

Edited May 30 by CosmicHermitCrab

[Frendh]

14 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have this line in the sand about when a player stops being "new" ,

That is when they know what mods to use (at what level) on their weapons to be good enough to clear the star chart without using any forma or potatoes,

 

Haha, I can't do this. If someone asked me what mods would fit I would have no idea.