SP Circuit can be Cheesed Legitly as Operator; Why the Strict Random Choices?

[0_The_F00l]

5 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Ok, counting cards should be legal then...

Completely irrelevant to the discussion for multiple reasons ,

Firstly card counting is not applicable to poker as there is no "house",

Secondly card counting is illegal if you use external methods like cameras , electronics and associates , if you use your own head as an individual there is no legal action that can be taken against you.

Stop using strawmen , it does not help your argument.

5 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Ok, counting cards should be legal then...

Yeah, I agree...

Ok , still don't know what you mean by basic mods.

5 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

From only 8 (random) weapon picks with premade default load-outs...not much intelligence is involved in the decision-making of that. Let them choose their basic mods on the default loadouts. It's not like the current premade default loadouts test any intelligence from the players either, and some of them are actually unoptimized, atm

You still didn't counter-argue why it's bad for everyone to choose basic mods on their default loadouts (my main argument), but nitpicked other minor details instead.

Of course there is intelligence involved ,  

You need to pick the combination of weapons and frame that compliment each other suitably.

I still don't know what you mean by basic mods. So i can agree to some customisation but you need to be clear what the limits are.

I have only countered your own statements methodically , nitpicking would be if i only took one sentence and ignored the rest. So you choosing to not address those other points makes you the nitpicker not me.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Completely irrelevant to the discussion for multiple reasons ,

You brought up the criticism of me referencing poker first, you started it. Card counting technically is legal, but it's highly prohibited by most casino (private companies) rules and frowned upon culturally. Typically if you are "caught" card counting you’ll be ejected from the premises immediately and won't be able to redeem your chips with a cashier. Also, if you refuse to leave the premise for card counting, you will be then in (technical) legal trouble. 

It is you in fact committing strawman when you don't present other's arguments fairly and with their intended assumptions. If you continue to argue that counting cards are legal, go do it yourself in a casino. A simple google search even proves you are wrong, along with records of past casino incidences. Otherwise, you are making a highly irrelevant argument regarding semantics. The point was, it's not worth counting cards because of the negative consequences of most modern communities. The bottom line is, you aren't allowed to count cards! Sorry if this is a news flash for you...

Since counting cards isn't allowed, this point can undermine the heights of actual gaming skills involved in modern poker. This is why I mentioned it, but you didn't seem to understand that.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ok , still don't know what you mean by basic mods.

That's already done, the current basic mods used in all of the current (premade) default mod loadouts, for example.
However, I guess we could add more to this tedious list of mods, but I see no need for that? Do you? DE can if they see fit I guess, w/e.
Trying to make me make a redundant list of mods to be used in circuit when there already is one and is probably actually used in-game (in terms of coding)...shake my head.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have only countered your own statements methodically , nitpicking would be if i only took one sentence and ignored the rest. So you choosing to not address those other points makes you the nitpicker not me.

Yeah, you systematically nitpicked and made various criticisms of various details that aren't actually needed or relevant to oppose the main premise of what I'm trying to deliver. In a way you are committing straw man, but not only once, but a few separate times. I ignored most them, at the moment, because most of them are indeed irrelevant to the main topic of this thread itself!
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Also, I was on the 8th round of SP Circuit, not round 5, but that's irrelevant, at this point...

About irrelevant topics, here's another one!

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have only countered your own statements methodically , nitpicking would be if i only took one sentence and ignored the rest...

You only replied:

18 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You don't play poker much do you ? It's more than luck , that's why there is the term poker face. You absolutely need to know how to use the cards dealt to you.

The difference is going to be very obvious and self evident.

To my quote:

22 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The thing is if the SP Circuit was truly randomized, to where we are forced to pick default loadouts, where is the true skill or game knowledge regarding that? What separates a player with a random loadout from another player with a random loadout in SP Circuit, if they don't even get to choose the mods for their default loadouts? It might as will be poker at that point.

Then you "only took one sentence and ignored the rest..."
Your words, not mine...and I don't mean the actual words too, semantically speaking. Also, you didn't answer the quote's question too, the sentence with the question mark!
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The only relevant counter-argument that interests me:

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Of course there is intelligence involved ,  

You need to pick the combination of weapons and frame that compliment each other suitably.

The meta is already narrowed with warframe/weapon choices alone, so the viable and workable combinations are quite a small quantity already, especially with the current premade default mode loadouts. Five Warframe choices and 8 weapons choices when you can only pick 1 warframe out of the 5 and 2 weapons out of the 8...that's not a lot of freedom of options, tbh. Which is why I think being able to customize default mod loadouts will fix this game-design flaw for most players.

Let's go to the extreme to see what I'm trying to describe. What's the point of picking only one weapon, weapon A or weapon B (only two choices out of total of two), if they aren't customizable and there's a huge pool of hundreds of weapons in the game that are randomly spawned/picked into weapon A or B slots? It's basically 50% fail rate at that point IF given one of the choices is 100% success rate. However, in reality, less than 50% of the hundreds of weapons from this pool are successfully viable, so even more than 50% fail rate in this hypothetical situation. The rest of the game modes of Warframe doesn't have this strict requirement of only picking a few guns from a pool of a few hundred options, the other game modes naturally give us both the freedom of selecting mods and weapon choices from hundreds of possible choices. The current circuit system gives us absolutely no freedom in selecting mods and a strict choice on weapon choice...see the issue now?

All these greyer areas of (highly opinionated) topics of debate-lording about: if elitism is good or bad, what are newbies, what is a good or bad player are all irrelevant baited arguments that are irrelevant to the main question or main premise: is SP Circuit currently made well in terms of game design, if not then how to solve it?

TLDR: Basically, the current Duviri Paradox Circuit game mode would only work well, since the default mod loadouts are currently static and premade, if the total quantity of stuff from the pools of weapons and warframes were much lower. Like a total of like 32 weapons and 20 warframes in the game, but no the game currently has way more stuff than that!

Edited May 31 by CosmicHermitCrab

[Lilybun]

I'd like to state for the record that my operator is set to kill void angels with a 1-1-1 amp using zenurik slowing pulse fast enough to not have to get softlocked bt 2600 ping host making orb collection impossible. My operator cant really do much else.

Random gear is unusable, my own gear can easily carry steel path circuit (now that I sold all primers but the epitaph)

Edited May 31 by Lilybun

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You brought up the criticism of me referencing poker first, you started it. Card counting technically is legal, but it's highly prohibited by most casino (private companies) rules and frowned upon culturally. Typically if you are "caught" card counting you’ll be ejected from the premises immediately and won't be able to redeem your chips with a cashier. Also, if you refuse to leave the premise for card counting, you will be then in (technical) legal trouble. 

It is you in fact committing strawman when you don't present other's arguments fairly and with their intended assumptions. If you continue to argue that counting cards are legal, go do it yourself in a casino. A simple google search even proves you are wrong, along with records of past casino incidences. Otherwise, you are making a highly irrelevant argument regarding semantics. The point was, it's not worth counting cards because of the negative consequences of most modern communities. The bottom line is, you aren't allowed to count cards! Sorry if this is a news flash for you...

Since counting cards isn't allowed, this point can undermine the heights of actual gaming skills involved in modern poker. This is why I mentioned it, but you didn't seem to understand that.

Yes i criticized it cause it is factually incorrect that there is no skill involved -where you have equated poker to pure luck - using poker is actually a good example for circuit as you can still win with a weak hand if you play them right. You seem to have missed the point i was making, that there is skill involved.

Counting cards by yourself in poker is irrelevant any other card game say blackjack (played in a group) where you can manipulate the odds is where it is relevant. You again missed the point i was making probably because you are equating a specific game (poker) to generic card games. It is like bringing a calculator to an exam , if its a test on chemistry, that calculator may be helpful but wont be considered cheating , but if its calculus it might be frowned upon.

Hope this clarifies what exactly it was that i was trying to argue.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

That's already done, the current basic mods used in all of the current (premade) default mod loadouts, for example.
However, I guess we could add more to this tedious list of mods, but I see no need for that? Do you? DE can if they see fit I guess, w/e.
Trying to make me make a redundant list of mods to be used in circuit when there already is one and is probably actually used in-game (in terms of coding)...shake my head.

So what i have seen so far ,

Primary:

Always: Serration , split chamber , Vigilante armaments ,

If base crit looks better than status : Point strike and vita sense,

     OR

If Base status looks better than crit  Galvanized aptitude/savvy , dual status mod (can be elemental or IPS)

One Utility: reload speed or magazine capacity or status chance,

Two damage mods : If any IPS element is predominant at base you will get two IPS mods of that element , if no predominant you can get two elemental mods (can be dual status) .

Secondary :

Always three: hornet strike, barrel diffusion , lethal torrent,

If base crit is better then two: pistol gambit and target cracker,

    OR

If Base status is better then two: Galvanized shot , dual status mod,

One utility: Reload speed , magazine or status chance,

Two damage : IPS or elemental (can be dual status) or augur pact ,

Melee:

Always 3 : Pressure point , reach , fury,

Always 2: Truesteel , Organ shatter (maybe i am wrong but i haven't seen CO yet)

One utility: Melee prowess /Killing blow,

Two Damage : IPS or Elemental (can be dual status) ,

One stance as per melee weapon

Frames:

Is pretty much always steel fiber , vitality , redirection , flow , stretch , intensify , streamline and continuity along with energy siphon aura.

So if this list is good enough , what exactly do you want to change , seems like the ability to pick the IPS/ elemental / dual status mods is most relevant. Would they only have default polarities ? then most of the mods wont fit , can you add polarities? then its not just mods.

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Yeah, you systematically nitpicked and made various criticisms of various details that aren't actually needed or relevant to oppose the main premise of what I'm trying to deliver. In a way you are committing straw man, but not only once, but a few separate times. I ignored most them, at the moment, because most of them are indeed irrelevant to the main topic of this thread itself!

Then i suggest you are clear so there is no opportunity for your opponents to use your own words against you :P  , but seriously most of my comments are only countering statements you made they are not independent lines of thought not relevant to the topic. You need to have the ability to defend them or accept their inconsistency and flaws.

I have also been very clear about my own statements and provided additional info if there was doubt and accepted flaws when it was pointed out to me , if there is indeed some misunderstanding we can clear it through dialogue , not by ignoring it, most of the things you have ignored actually sheds light on why i have the opinions that i have. You are of course free to ignore them but calling others nitpickers when you are actually doing it feels off putting.

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Also, I was on the 8th round of SP Circuit, not round 5, but that's irrelevant, at this point...

About irrelevant topics, here's another one!

You only replied:

To my quote:

Then you "only took one sentence and ignored the rest..."
Your words, not mine...and I don't mean the actual words too, semantically speaking. Also, you didn't answer the quote's question too, the sentence with the question mark!

Did i really ignore it?

You speak of skill , and claim poker needs no skill and being completely luck based, I say poker (and circuit though i do not specifically say so ) requires the ability of the player to use what they have.

I have actually answered the question that was asked , maybe if you hadn't ignored the rest of the comments in that post you would have seen it. Let me help you so you don't have to search for it. its a few sentences below what you just quoted.

19 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have this line in the sand about when a player stops being "new" ,

That is when they know what mods to use (at what level) on their weapons to be good enough to clear the star chart without using any forma or potatoes,

After a certain time playing the game , you can "know" what to build to get the most out of a weapon , 

What seperates them from "good" players?

The question becomes less about "what mods to use " and "how many forma to use" to get to the "it will clear anything you throw at it" stage of modding,

This is all still pretty independent of different gear , 

A skilled player , will be able to use all the gear together to make something workable with the limited tools at their disposal.

So there you have it , not ignored , by me atleast :P

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The only relevant counter-argument that interests me:

The meta is already narrowed with warframe/weapon choices alone, so the viable and workable combinations are quite a small quantity already, especially with the current premade default mode loadouts. Five Warframe choices and 8 weapons choices when you can only pick 1 warframe out of the 5 and 2 weapons out of the 8...that's not a lot of freedom of options, tbh. Which is why I think being able to customize default mod loadouts will fix this game-design flaw for most players.

Let's go to the extreme to see what I'm trying to describe. What's the point of picking only one weapon, weapon A or weapon B (only two choices out of total of two), if they aren't customizable and there's a huge pool of hundreds of weapons in the game that are randomly spawned/picked into weapon A or B slots? It's basically 50% fail rate at that point IF given one of the choices is 100% success rate. However, in reality, less than 50% of the hundreds of weapons from this pool are successfully viable, so even more than 50% fail rate in this hypothetical situation. The rest of the game modes of Warframe doesn't have this strict requirement of only picking a few guns from a pool of a few hundred options, the other game modes naturally give us both the freedom of selecting mods and weapon choices from hundreds of possible choices. The current circuit system gives us absolutely no freedom in selecting mods and a strict choice on weapon choice...see the issue now?

All these greyer areas of (highly opinionated) topics of debate-lording about: if elitism is good or bad, what are newbies, what is a good or bad player are all irrelevant baited arguments that are irrelevant to the main question or main premise: is SP Circuit currently made well in terms of game design, if not then how to solve it?

TLDR: Basically, the current Duviri Paradox Circuit game mode would only work well if the total pools of weapons and warframes were much lower. Like a total of like 32 weapons and 20 warframes in the game, but no the game currently has way more stuff than that!

The narrow meta is what i also talked about, you really should read what has already been posted. And how Rogue lite is not suitable for warframe unless we get proper balance. And until then the privileged players will have an easier time of it.

My suggestion to this is a stat squish , reduce the difference between what is considered "viable" and "non viable" (i disagree with that labeling but we can use it for now) so the difference between the weapons is still present but not as significant.

As to the opinionated views , everyone is free to their opinions but it remains only that , opinions on both sides of the argument.

 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So what i have seen so far ,

Primary:

Always: Serration , split chamber , Vigilante armaments ,

If base crit looks better than status : Point strike and vita sense,

     OR

If Base status looks better than crit  Galvanized aptitude/savvy , dual status mod (can be elemental or IPS)

One Utility: reload speed or magazine capacity or status chance,

Two damage mods : If any IPS element is predominant at base you will get two IPS mods of that element , if no predominant you can get two elemental mods (can be dual status) .

Secondary :

Always three: hornet strike, barrel diffusion , lethal torrent,

If base crit is better then two: pistol gambit and target cracker,

    OR

If Base status is better then two: Galvanized shot , dual status mod,

One utility: Reload speed , magazine or status chance,

Two damage : IPS or elemental (can be dual status) or augur pact ,

Melee:

Always 3 : Pressure point , reach , fury,

Always 2: Truesteel , Organ shatter (maybe i am wrong but i haven't seen CO yet)

One utility: Melee prowess /Killing blow,

Two Damage : IPS or Elemental (can be dual status) ,

One stance as per melee weapon

Frames:

Is pretty much always steel fiber , vitality , redirection , flow , stretch , intensify , streamline and continuity along with energy siphon aura.

So if this list is good enough , what exactly do you want to change , seems like the ability to pick the IPS/ elemental / dual status mods is most relevant. Would they only have default polarities ? then most of the mods wont fit , can you add polarities? then its not just mods.

The default polarities or polarities that are already given in the current (premade) default mod loadouts. Might not be able to fit most mods into all 8 slots, but sometimes a 6 modded loadout can be superior to an 8 modded loadout, even with basic mods. So there is a point to it even if DE has to add another system of loadouts into the game. The current default loadout system of Duviri Paradox is a lazy model, atm.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The narrow meta is what i also talked about, you really should read what has already been posted. And how Rogue lite is not suitable for warframe unless we get proper balance. And until then the privileged players will have an easier time of it.

My suggestion to this is a stat squish , reduce the difference between what is considered "viable" and "non viable" (i disagree with that labeling but we can use it for now) so the difference between the weapons is still present but not as significant.

As to the opinionated views , everyone is free to their opinions but it remains only that , opinions on both sides of the argument.

 

I highly doubt DE has the resources to completely rework the game's Damage 2.0, along with status 2.0 IMO, into 3.0 or better. I agree my solution doesn't solve this underlying issue and isn't the best choice, but it's the best practical workaround with the given tools and resources that DE has access to atm. This issue with its current damage system and damage calculations being unfair or unbalanced has been an issue since open beta. However, the community and DE have ignored it too long and typically argue "it's warframe, not some other game" mentality. This is what we deserve from this neglect...

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You speak of skill , and claim poker needs no skill and being completely luck based, I say poker (and circuit though i do not specifically say so ) requires the ability of the player to use what they have.

As I've stated and implied in the past, choosing 1 warframe out of 5 and 2 weapons out of 8 choices doesn't require an impressive amount of skill, intelligence, and knowledge. However, picking them and then in further picking their mods would meet that criterion, IMO. This is more of a subjective matter, which I will discuss later in this same post.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Yes i criticized it cause it is factually incorrect that there is no skill involved -where you have equated poker to pure luck - using poker is actually a good example for circuit as you can still win with a weak hand if you play them right. You seem to have missed the point i was making, that there is skill involved.

Counting cards by yourself in poker is irrelevant any other card game say blackjack (played in a group) where you can manipulate the odds is where it is relevant. You again missed the point i was making probably because you are equating a specific game (poker) to generic card games. It is like bringing a calculator to an exam , if its a test on chemistry, that calculator may be helpful but wont be considered cheating , but if its calculus it might be frowned upon.

I didn't say specifically or even necessarily implied that poker extremely lacked skill aka has absolutely no skill whatsoever. I implied that poker lacked skill, which doesn't have the same exact meaning as embodying zero amount of skill. The gauge for what's considered lacking skill or low amounts of skill is obviously a subjective system and there cannot really be a factual or practical way of measuring this, rationally. As I've stated you represented my original statement in the extreme sense or assumption, which can be regarded as committing straw man or misunderstanding it.

It seems clear now that we majorly disagree if the current SP Circuit requires great skill to conquer or little skill to conquer.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You speak of skill , and claim poker needs no skill and being completely luck based, I say poker (and circuit though i do not specifically say so ) requires the ability of the player to use what they have.

Yeah, I used what I had in my SP Circuit instance and I cheesed it with operator and my opinion is it doesn't require a great level of understanding of the game or "skill" to beat SP Circuit, atm. Thus, what's the point in even making choices in the SP Circuit in the first place if you can just ignore the whole theme of design with operator?

You could argue to eliminate operator, but I doubt the tryhards would like that change. Thus, why even continue to make it to where veterans (High MR and Heavily Invested) players have a huge advantage in SP Circuit when they have no real advantage in past game modes, except maybe the discontinued trials/raids.

The majority of folks didn't like the past trials/raids, and this is one of the reasons of the complex list, because only the veterans dominated the game mode, which contradicts DE's core game philosophy of making all game modes have entry for both veteran and casual players alike. They stated this for the Eidolon (Tricap) main update, too! It's one of the reasons why players can unlock both Duviri Paradox and Steel Path within a month of playtime. Steel Path, by design, originally was never designed to have gate between casual and elite players. Hence Warframe has no true endgame...

Edited May 31 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

5 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The default polarities or polarities that are already given in the current (premade) default mod loadouts. Might not be able to fit most mods into all 8 slots, but sometimes a 6 modded loadout can be superior to an 8 modded loadout, even with basic mods. So there is a point to it even if DE has to add another system of loadouts to the game.

I actually don't think any polarities are applied to the default loadouts , they just fit the curated mods at max rank (i have seen elemental mods with 14 capacity which is just weird) , Still my original question remains , what will you add or replace in said mod list , as the curated list is not exhaustive but the actual mod list in game is pretty large. And what level of control is expected?

would mod capacity be a concern? (don't forget weapons mod capacity is subject to MR if not ranked manually)

Would all mods be configurable or only select ones?

can you pick low ranked mods from your own pool or it has to be the max rank ones?

Can you shift polarities (if polarities exist)? to better match elemental alignments?

It could be either too much or make things much worse depending on whats possible,

22 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I highly doubt DE has the resources to completely rework the game's Damage 2.0, along with status 2.0 IMO, into 3.0 or better. I agree my solution doesn't solve this underlying issue and isn't the best choice, but it's the best practical workaround with the given tools and resources that DE has access to atm. This issue with its current damage system and damage calculations being unfair or unbalanced has been an issue since open beta. However, the community and DE have ignored it too long and typically argue "it's warframe, not some other game" mentality. This is what we deserve from this neglect...

I partially agree to this , they have already done a rework of all weapons in the past once (and unfortunately have gon the opposite direction of raising the floor instead of reducing the ceiling) , So i do not doubt they can do it again if they wanted to.

Assuming you refer to your solution of choosing mods as per your preference? that is ok , but needs to be regulated in some way as modding is most of where the power comes.

26 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

As I've stated and implied in the past, choose 1 warframe out of 5 and 2 weapons out of 8 choice doesn't require an impressive amount of skill, intelligence, and knowledge. However, picking them and then in further picking their mods would meet that criterion, IMO. This is more of a subjective matter, which I will discuss later in this same post.

Doesnt require impressive amounts of skill , but having game knowledge and Skill will get you further than just limiting yourself to what you are used to and rushing in blindly.

case in point , i had a run where i had my harrow, an ether sword with slash ips a mods a zymos and a trumna, from amongst the selections.

Apparently the Zymos i picked at the time was one i had modded for testing and it only had multishot and damage mods.

I managed to get status spread and status deals double damage decrees in the first round,

And being harrow , i did what he does best , got headshots with guaranteed crits.

And i was deleting things rapidly with just the zymos - which was modded suboptimally - even worse than default loadouts,

So if you know what you are doing you can get far with suboptimal gear.

51 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I didn't say specifically or even necessarily implied that poker extremely lacked skill aka has absolutely no skill whatsoever. I implied that poker lacked skill, which doesn't have the same exact meaning as embodying zero amount of skill. The gauge for what's considered lacking skill or low amounts of skill is obviously a subjective system and cannot really be a factual or practical way of measuring things, rationally. As I've stated you represented my original statement in the extreme sense or assumption, which can be regarded as committing straw man or misunderstanding it.

Clearly we misunderstood each other if that was what you had implied.

52 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

It seems clear now that we majorly disagree if the current SP Circuit requires great skill to conquer or little skill to conquer.

It requires a combination of luck , skill and game knowledge to conquer SP circuit easily.

If you lack one or more of the necessary qualities you may still be able to conquer it but with some difficulty and extra effort.

54 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Yeah, I used what I had in my SP Circuit instance and I cheesed it with operator and my opinion is it doesn't require a great level of understanding of the game or "skill" to beat SP Circuit, atm. Thus, what's the point in even making choices in the SP Circuit in the first place if you can just ignore the whole theme of design with operator?

You could argue to eliminate operator, but I doubt the tryhards would like that change. Thus, why even continue to make it to where veterans (High MR and Heavily Invested) players have a huge advantage in SP Circuit when they have no real advantage in past game modes, except maybe the discontinued trials/raids.

And to counter that i mentioned not everyone has their operator leveled to the max just as not everyone has access to most weapons and frames. You are arguing from a position of privilege that may not be accessible to those whom you are trying to speak on behalf of.

It absolutely requires a significant amount of game knowledge , skill and experience to get to where you are with the operator, or do you believe any player will be able to reach that stage without putting in some time and effort?

You are trying to counter one privilege with another , and that is logically flawed.

you want players to level their operators instead of their weapons and frames? go for it , i dont think DE will have a problem as you are now promoting a kind of playstyle they are happy to encourage anyway - which is to move away from the weapons you are currently using.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The majority of folks didn't like the past trials/raids, and this is one of the reasons of the complex list, because only the veterans dominated the game mode, which contradicts DE's core game philosophy of making all game modes have entry for both veteran and casual players alike. They stated this for the Eidolon (Tricap) main update, too! It's one of the reasons why players can unlock both Duviri Paradox and Steel Path within a month of playtime. Steel Path, by design, originally was never designed to have gate between casual and elite players. Hence Warframe has no true endgame...

They removed trials beause they were a nighhtmare (haha) of bugs and broke with each update and DE would rather do something new than have something old be fixed to work correctly,

Also assuming you mean more experienced players when you say vet , so "vets" dominated a game mode? "vets" dominate all game modes, thats not new and still remains true everywhere you look - the more experience you gain (either directly or indirectly) the more equipped you are to handle things thrown your way.

Casual is not the same as inexperienced and so is not in opposition to "Vets", You need to understand properly what each of these terms implies if we are to discuss further.

I consider myself a casual player , but over the years i have amassed a lot of knowledge , i have traded a lot , i have helped a lot of players , i have decorated our own dojo (and won a prize for it :P) made friends and gotten into various discussions on the forums. Am i also a vet? probably , but i dont spend hours in endurance , or install 20 forma on all my weapons (though i do collect them without deleting them), or try to beat the top k drive score on the various open worlds.

The Term Vet is too vague , i prefer more specific labels that can be more descriptive.

Elite on the other hand i can understand , the kind of player when you pair with you know you are probably going to complete the mission successfully and have gotten the necessary tools for it, So its less about a self appointed title and more of what other perceive you as - which is also subjective.

casual , is the one that just wants some fun which again is subjective.

So i dont really get why you are trying to create this segregation. 

[PhoenixWolf0416]

1小时前 , 0_The_F00l 说:

I actually don't think any polarities are applied to the default loadouts , they just fit the curated mods at max rank (i have seen elemental mods with 14 capacity which is just weird) , Still my original question remains , what will you add or replace in said mod list , as the curated list is not exhaustive but the actual mod list in game is pretty large. And what level of control is expected?

would mod capacity be a concern? (don't forget weapons mod capacity is subject to MR if not ranked manually)

Would all mods be configurable or only select ones?

can you pick low ranked mods from your own pool or it has to be the max rank ones?

Can you shift polarities (if polarities exist)? to better match elemental alignments?

It could be either too much or make things much worse depending on whats possible,

I would say this will be a distribution privilege though. Make most people have a closer position in the circuit.... if they design Duviri randomize for "Experience things you don't have" instead "Pay plats/times for take advantage in Duviri". Using Mods we farmed before with limited loan items can still keep some fun part around circuit. 

This will make circuit going pretty easier, but I still think that should be fine and have same line for something "SP is for those one prepared"  .

 

 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I actually don't think any polarities are applied to the default loadouts , they just fit the curated mods at max rank (i have seen elemental mods with 14 capacity which is just weird) , Still my original question remains , what will you add or replace in said mod list , as the curated list is not exhaustive but the actual mod list in game is pretty large. And what level of control is expected?

As I stated or implied you can keep the same list, which is already in the game.

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

would mod capacity be a concern? (don't forget weapons mod capacity is subject to MR if not ranked manually)

Mod capacity would be 60 as if the weapon is maxed with a catalyst. Since SP Circuit is an unique game mode and you can only use the default mod loadouts within this game mode, you don't necessarily need to care about MR in relation to mod capacity.

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Would all mods be configurable or only select ones?

I don't fully understand this ambiguous question, and I also don't see the proposed potential problem of it.

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

can you pick low ranked mods from your own pool or it has to be the max rank ones?

No, but you have access to default mods at all ranks from the DEFAULT MOD LOADOUT POOL, very similar to conclave loadouts. 

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Can you shift polarities (if polarities exist)? to better match elemental alignments?

I would argue NO, since it would require an investment of a forma, in general.

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Doesnt require impressive amounts of skill , but having game knowledge and Skill will get you further than just limiting yourself to what you are used to and rushing in blindly.

I mean...the players knowingly pick the gear options, but the loadouts are "blindly" given to them, metaphorically.

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

you want players to level their operators instead of their weapons and frames? go for it , i dont think DE will have a problem as you are now promoting a kind of playstyle they are happy to encourage anyway - which is to move away from the weapons you are currently using.

I didn't literally say this or even implied it. You are committing straw man again, that's why my argument seems flawed to you. The original point of cheesing it with operator is to prove that the main theme of (roguelite) design of SP Circuit is flawed because it can be overlooked/ignored completely. The purpose of having strict gear item choices for Circuit is to make this game mode harder and more challenging for the players, is it not? Well it doesn't actually do that, is my point...which is subjective.

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Also assuming you mean more experienced players when you say vet , so "vets" dominated a game mode? "vets" dominate all game modes, thats not new and still remains true everywhere you look - the more experience you gain (either directly or indirectly) the more equipped you are to handle things thrown your way.

Casual is not the same as inexperienced and so is not in opposition to "Vets", You need to understand properly what each of these terms implies if we are to discuss further.

I consider myself a casual player , but over the years i have amassed a lot of knowledge , i have traded a lot , i have helped a lot of players , i have decorated our own dojo (and won a prize for it :P) made friends and gotten into various discussions on the forums. Am i also a vet? probably , but i dont spend hours in endurance , or install 20 forma on all my weapons (though i do collect them without deleting them), or try to beat the top k drive score on the various open worlds.

The Term Vet is too vague , i prefer more specific labels that can be more descriptive.

Elite on the other hand i can understand , the kind of player when you pair with you know you are probably going to complete the mission successfully and have gotten the necessary tools for it, So its less about a self appointed title and more of what other perceive you as - which is also subjective.

You are going into semantics again. Whatever, "elite players" instead of "veteran players" then...

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So i dont really get why you are trying to create this segregation. 

Because the popular mindset atm in defending SP Circuit is that it should only be accessed by "Elite" players.

From update patch notes: 

DE does have the core game philosophy to make all game modes accessible and "fun to play" from ALL player-groups of warframe's community, except very new players that obviously haven't reached ingame requirements per game modes, which is why those ingame requirements already existed. 
Eidolons game mode can be accessed and fun to play as casual players, but most folks are arguing the opposite for the current SP Circuit, or are they not?

On 2023-05-30 at 2:08 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

You have,started this argument with the emphasis on "oh won't someone please think of the children" which makes your argument flawed and not relevant.

Ok, so much for the casual playerbase then or whatever part of the community you are referencing...I guess you think they don't matter?

10 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

They removed trials beause they were a nighhtmare (haha) of bugs and broke with each update and DE would rather do something new than have something old be fixed to work correctly,

This is an understatement, imo. However, I don't care about discussing this highly controversial off-topic and don't wanna debate about it because it's irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

Edited May 31 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

6 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

As I stated or implied you can keep the same list, which is already in the game.

Mod capacity would be 60 as if the weapon is maxed with a catalyst. Since SP Circuit is an unique game mode and you can only use the default premade mod loadouts within this game mode, you don't necessarily need to care about MR in relation to mod capacity.

I don't fully understand this ambiguous question, and I also don't see the proposed potential problem of it.

No, but you have access to default mods at all ranks from the DEFAULT MOD LOADOUT POOL, very similar to conclave loadouts. 

I would argue NO, since it would require an investment of a forma, in general.

i showed that there are categories in the default load outs ,

Always available, subject to base stats , utility , and optional damage.

Would players be able to change any slot with any mod (ignore utility and add more elements)? or can you only replace within categories (replace one utility with another , one damage with another )?

Just trying to understand the limit on control you think should be available.

I am perfectly happy to go with what you are suggesting as far as default load outs go , but would like the idea to be fleshed out.

14 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I didn't literally say this or even implied it. You are committing straw man again, that's why my argument seems flawed to you. The original point of cheesing it with operator is to prove that the main theme of (roguelite) design of SP Circuit is flawed because it can be overlooked/ignored completely. The purpose of having strict gear item choices for Circuit is to make this game mode harder and more challenging for the players, is it not?

I have already explained why i find your use of operator and new players as justification of what you asked for as flawed , i do not feel i need to explain again.

As to the rogue lite aspect , I would agree if this was a traditional rogue lite game , which it is not. I do not believe the purpose of circuit itself is to make things harder , it is more to encourage players to try other things outside their regularly used gear while giving DE a means to keep players engaged.

SP anything , is the same as the base mission with cranked up numbers. i do not see the reason for making an exception for circuit nodes.

24 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You are going into semantics again. Whatever, "elite players" instead of "veteran players" then...

Semantics and nuance are important , i still don't get why you are trying to segregate players on these categories as they are also vague. Different players enjoy different things and what one set likes may be what another set hates and a third that is neutral to it , and they enjoy , dislike or don't care about it for different reasons and not because they are casual or vet or elite players.

31 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Because the popular mindset atm in defending SP Circuit is that it should only be accessed by "Elite" players

I dont bother with what a vocal group has to say , i make my own judgements based on the merit (or lack of) the argument made. If i wanted to be popular i would say whatever gets me the most votes , or likes or whatever the current badge is. That's why you will see me being critical as well as appreciate of different things.

38 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

From update patch notes: 

DE does have the core game philosophy to make all game modes accessible and "fun to play" from ALL player-groups of warframe's community, except very new players that obviously haven't reached ingame requirements per game modes, which is why those ingame requirements already existed. 
Eidolons game mode can be accessed and fun to play as casual players, but most folks are arguing the opposite for the current SP Circuit, or are they not?
 

That is an exercise in futility , what DE wants and what they can achieve are two different things. I would like to have the ability to S#&$ gold bricks and pay my bills with it , but reality does not conform to my wishes. DE attempting to make games that are universally liked will never be successful , there will always be those that enjoy it and those that do not.

Sticking to the game , I personally hate eidolons , i didnt look back once i maxed my focus , and it wasnt cause i was casual or elite , i just don't like the game mode for my personal reasons. And i do not think DE should change it just cause i have a personal dislike for it. And despite the various changes and updates made i still dislike them, Cause i dislike the time gating , i hate the bright colours on dark backgrounds that give me potential epilepsy attacks , i dislike the pseudo meta that it created , i dislike that it is filled with so much bloated arcanes based on RNG.

I criticized it for what it is based on my personal reasons , i did not beg on behalf of others.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Would players be able to change any slot with any mod (ignore utility and add more elements)? or can you only replace within categories (replace one utility with another , one damage with another )?

Any mod, but only if it's currently within the default mod pool of Circuit. The choice is up to the player if they want to focus on utility or DPS, or a mixture of both.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

As to the rogue lite aspect , I would agree if this was a traditional rogue lite game , which it is not. I do not believe the purpose of circuit itself is to make things harder , it is more to encourage players to try other things outside their regularly used gear while giving DE a means to keep players engaged.

This is not entirely true, IMO. Currently, if players see all 8 weapons choices as off-meta or vastly unpopular, they will most likely just do one round and "reset." Also, the current premade default mod loadouts are so unorthodoxly constructed, with some of the points you mentioned or implied, that they currently alienate the majority of the playerbase too much, which is a game design flaw of not having fun. The best approach to accomplish your encouragement goal is to allow the players some customization to their default mod loadouts, in addition to randomized gear choices.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Semantics and nuance are important , i still don't get why you are trying to segregate players on these categories as they are also vague. 

I didn't start this segregation in the beginning necessarily. First, the community did (reason for my OP) and then you join in with them (reason for my previous posts), ironically. I was just responding to your assumptions regarding your proposed hint of segregation in your next quote, in the past posts.

On 2023-05-30 at 2:08 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

You have,started this argument with the emphasis on "oh won't someone please think of the children" which makes your argument flawed and not relevant.

Please do not ignore this past point you criticized, it is indeed quite relevant and you started this "segregation issue" in our current one-to-one debate. I was just defensively responding to it, I didn't start it.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That is an exercise in futility , what DE wants and what they can achieve are two different things. I would like to have the ability to S#&$ gold bricks and pay my bills with it , but reality does not conform to my wishes. DE attempting to make games that are universally liked will never be successful , there will always be those that enjoy it and those that do not.

You could say the same for the current SP Circuit, it has failed, game design-wise, according to certain subjective common perspectives. Arguing for it to be futile to want to improve upon it is not just pessimistic, but both irrelevant and not constructive at all. DE has standards, and they are trying to meet them, so the playerbase might as well support them because it's the constructive thing to do. This is DE's and Warframe's core game philosophy and the community wants to meet this standard, not some other community's or hypothetical standard...

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Sticking to the game , I personally hate eidolons , i didnt look back once i maxed my focus , and it wasnt cause i was casual or elite , i just don't like the game mode for my personal reasons. And i do not think DE should change it just cause i have a personal dislike for it. And despite the various changes and updates made i still dislike them, Cause i dislike the time gating , i hate the bright colours on dark backgrounds that give me potential epilepsy attacks , i dislike the pseudo meta that it created , i dislike that it is filled with so much bloated arcanes based on RNG.

I criticized it for what it is based on my personal reasons , i did not beg on behalf of others.

This is not relevant to this feedback thread and my arguments' points of views, but I'm sorry for your associated troubles with Eidolons. The bright colors on dark backgrounds are a common issue in games such as Warframe. The issue with epilepsy is a real-life one, and not just a video game problem; it has more to do with the interaction between real-life persons and looking at the screen of a virtual world or video game. It's a harder issue to solve, than the other more relevant game design problems of Warframe, atm. However, I do admit that it's an important sociological problem in general or a problem that most modern communities currently overlook.

Edited May 31 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

7 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Any mod, but only if it's currently within the default mod pool of Circuit. The choice is up to the player if they want to focus on utility or DPS, or a mixture of both.

Sure i,i do not think it will alleviate the issue you highlight in your next few comments but I don't see a problem with this.

7 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

This is not entirely true, IMO. Currently, if players see all 8 weapons choices as off-meta or vastly unpopular, they will most likely just do one round and "reset." Also, the current premade default mod loadouts are so unorthodoxly constructed, with some of the points you mentioned or implied, that they currently alienate the majority of the playerbase too much, which is a game design flaw of not having fun. The best approach to accomplish your encouragement goal is to allow the players some customization to their default mod loadouts, in addition to randomized gear choices.

You are right , that it is your opinion.

I have played public SP circuit most of the time ,and I have not seen that happen very often , i think only twice have i seen someone drop out during weapon selection, and as long as one player is having something good enough the other players usually stay for 5 rounds , and depending on decrees made available , those weapons can punch much higher above their weight but you can also be dead in the water if you make bad selections.

I have failed maybe once when i decided to pick an intentionally bad loadout (solo) to see if it can be made viable over time and was on an envy spiral, So Enemies with toxin + defense + single target weapons on default+ squishy frame + mediocre decree + no allies = dead very frequently + objective not being defended often = fail state reached pretty fast.

Mod selection will not overcome such a scenario , but that is besides the point as i am ok with the limited customization you recommend.

7 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I didn't start this segregation in the beginning necessarily. First, the community did (reason for my OP) and then you join in with them (reason for my previous posts), ironically. I was just responding to your assumptions regarding your proposed hint of segregation in your next quote, in the past posts.

Please do not ignore this past point you criticized, it is indeed quite relevant and you started this "segregation issue" in our current one-to-one debate. I was just defensively responding to it, I didn't start it.

You started this the moment you made the following comments in the OP

Quote

Thus, why not just make it easier and more fun for the bigger casual playerbase?

Quote

Newer players are already overwhelmed by many layers of poorly explained content in Warframe and they, along with future generations, will be needed to grow the Warframe community.

There is also no reason to scapegoat "the community" ,"new " or "casual" players. The community is not a hive mind, It is made of individuals all with their own preferences and biases. And the Forums is not even a full spectrum of the entire playerbase. So if you base your scenario on comments made in various reddit or forum posts then it is based on incomplete data in an echo chamber . The only ones having access to the the actual data is DE.

You have your own opinions? Thats fine , i have mine too , but do not assume you speak on behalf of anyone other than yourself,

7 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You could say the same for the current SP Circuit, it has failed, game design-wise, according to certain subjective common perspectives. Arguing for it to be futile to want to improve upon it is not just pessimistic, but both irrelevant and not constructive at all. DE has standards, and they are trying to meet them, so the playerbase might as well support them because it's the constructive thing to do. This is DE's and Warframe's core game philosophy and the community wants to meet this standard, not some other community's or hypothetical standard...

Too early to claim failure or success, neither you nor i has visibility of what the success or failure criteria is and how far along it has gotten on either side and listening to an echo chamber will not get you closer.

I am also not saying it cannot be improved upon , but asking for things to be hot and cold at the same time is not possible. You cannot appease the section of the community that enjoys challenge while also making it casual friendly, That is the exact reason we had steel path , and it partially met that condition but also failed in its core principle.

I already said this , i will support or criticize things on their own merit , not because others say so.

7 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

This is not relevant to this feedback thread and my arguments' points of views, but I'm sorry for your associated troubles with Eidolons. The bright colors on dark backgrounds are a common issue in games such as Warframe. The issue with epilepsy is a real-life one, and not just a video game problem; it has more to do with the interaction between real-life persons and looking at the screen of a virtual world or video game. It's a harder issue to solve, than the other more relevant game design problems of Warframe, atm. However, I do admit that it's an important sociological problem in general or a problem that most modern communities currently overlook.

That was an example (though it is real and not hypothetical),  showcasing not everyone can be made happy , there will always be outliers that will not enjoy it , no matter how hard you try to make it inclusive (which i dont think Eidolons are in the first place) the ones that hate it the most will scream for it the loudest.

So you should make your arguments with your own personal thoughts not based on someone elses loud screams.

I mentioned eidolons as you were quoting an update note for eidolons (long before we had SP).

[CosmicHermitCrab]

56 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You started this the moment you made the following comments in the OP

As I've stated, the quote regarding a casual player base (from this original thread post) is in response to past community opinions in the entire Circuit Feedback section of this forum. You expanded upon it and supported against "children" per se. So why are you biased against children now, do they not matter for Warframe's growing community? Why did you associate them with the "casual player base," in the beginning too? "Casual" is a vague and ambiguous label I admit, but "children" simply is not.

56 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

There is also no reason to scapegoat "the community" ,"new " or "casual" players. The community is not a hive mind, It is made of individuals all with their own preferences and biases. And the Forums is not even a full spectrum of the entire playerbase. So if you base your scenario on comments made in various reddit or forum posts then it is based on incomplete data in an echo chamber . The only ones having access to the the actual data is DE.

This is an extreme allegation and simply isn't true, I didn't scapegoat any of those mentioned groups. This might as well be a simple lie. I actually communicated, based on my own actual personal experiences in this very reality, to past players and gamers that tried or continue to play Warframe, and they voiced to me some of these concerns. My personal experiences, along with others, should be weighted equally to your own personal experiences, regarding anything. 

Also, I agree the community isn't a hive mind and it's filled with many groups of wonderful people. However, associating actual statistical data from DE of Warframe is quite an ignorant way and misleading way of representing this community. Statistical data can be biased and people aren't only a numeric value. You are committing a Category Fallacy in arguing that DE's statistics represent the true form of Warframe's real community.

56 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am also not saying it cannot be improved upon , but asking for things to be hot and cold at the same time is not possible. You cannot appease the section of the community that enjoys challenge while also making it casual friendly, That is the exact reason we had steel path , and it partially met that condition but also failed in its core principle.

You said you cannot make a community enjoy a challenge while also making it casual-friendly without a supportive reason. Why is this near impossible to accomplish, necessarily? Under whose authority is it impossible to be both hot and cold, metaphorically? (you brought up this metaphoric example) If it's just under your authority, well that's just your opinion, dude.

You are committing another fallacy now, a False Dichotomy.

Everyone has their own personal subjective views of how a community or society functions, some views are naive while others have some merit. However, none of them can be easily proven factual...it's a more subjective field. You value numeric data too much, IMO...

On 2023-05-30 at 2:08 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

You have,started this argument with the emphasis on "oh won't someone please think of the children" which makes your argument flawed and not relevant.

I wonder how "children" = "casual?" Where the heck did "children" even come from? Probably from committing a straw man...

Edited June 1 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Under whose authority is it impossible to be both hot and cold,

Common Sense, or a thermometer if you have one.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

metaphorically?

Also common sense , if you know what was implied.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

So why are you biased against children now, do they not matter for Warframe's growing community?

Please check warframes ESRB ratings. Now let me know if you are actively promoting children (those under 18 years of age) to be playing the game.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I wonder how "children" = "casual?" Where the heck did "children" even come from? Probably from committing a straw man...

*sigh* did you miss the part about separating casuals from new player vets and elites again? you really should work on your knowledge retention skills if you want to be part of long discussions.

The part you are referring to is from here:

It was to bring attention to the fact that the player base you are trying to defend is not in need of that defense from you.

Now that the major points of contention are out of the way lets look at the rest of your statements.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

As I've stated, the quote regarding a casual player base (from the original post) is in response to past community opinions in the entire Circuit Feedback section of this forum. You expanded upon it and supported against "children" per se. So why are you biased against children now, do they not matter for Warframe's growing community? Why did you associate them with the "casual player base," in the beginning too? "Casual" is a vague and ambiguous label I admit, but "children" simply is not.

There is already a casual mode for casual players. And children should not be playing the game at all.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

This is an extreme allegation and simply isn't true, I didn't scapegoat any of those mentioned groups. This might as well be a simple lie. I actually communicated, based on my  own actual personal experiences in this very reality, to past players and gamers that tried or continue to play Warframe, and they voiced to me some of these concerns. My personal experiences, along with others, should be weighted equally to your own personal experiences, regarding anything.

Then i recommend you stick to only your personal opinions and not speak of behalf of any community as a whole.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Also, I agree the community isn't a hive mind and it's filled with many groups of wonderful people. However, associating actual statistical data from DE of Warframe is quite an ignorant way and misleading way of representing this community. Statistical data can be biased and people aren't only a numeric value. You are committing a Category Fallacy in arguing that DE's statistics represent the true form of Warframe's real community.

Community is indeed people , both wonderful as well as terrible people. People can be a lot more biased and subjective than statistics and are easily swayed by emotions. Stats remain objective. Are you even aware what Category fallacy means? or are you even sure what i was highlighting when i talked about the stats.

If we are talking of fallacies then the biggest fallacy you are commiting is the fallacy of generalization , with the assumption that the few players you talked to is indicative of the entire community as a whole, if you want to be accurate you need a bigger base to talk to. Whatever info you have is insignificant compared to the information available to DE from their various reports.

Yes , it is not a full indicator either but it is better than subjective hearsay.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You said you cannot make a community enjoy a challenge while also making it casual-friendly without a supportive reason. Why is this near impossible to accomplish, necessarily? Under whose authority is it impossible to be both hot and cold, metaphorically? (you brought up this metaphoric example) If it's just under your authority, well that's just your opinion, dude.

You are free to prove me wrong. I just have not seen something that is both challenging and casual at the same time in the same instance.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You are committing another fallacy now, a False Dichotomy.

Please share the other variables possible.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Everyone has their own personal subjective views of how a community or society functions, some views are naive while others have some merit. However, none of them can be easily proven factual...it's a more subjective field. You value numeric data too much, IMO...

And you value data too little or not at all it seems, a random jackass spouting nonsense and others agreeing with them (not necessarily what you have said so far) does not make it any more valid just cause more jackasses keep repeating it. You need to take all opinions with an unbiased view.

Edited June 1 by 0_The_F00l

[CosmicHermitCrab]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Common Sense, or a thermometer if you have one.

Also common sense , if you know what was implied.

What is common sense per se? It can have ambiguous meaning, please at least define it. Also, "common sense" isn't typically acceptable for supportive reasons regarding any arguments, even academic ones. I don't see any reason to give you any counter-reasoning if you don't at least support your conclusions with actual plain reasons. You have been simply omitting supportive reasons. You cannot just give a conclusion and argue it's true when it lacks any reasoning behind it. That's not critical thinking...it's not even arguing, just stating.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Please check warframes ESRB ratings. Now let me know if you are actively promoting children (those under 18 years of age) to be playing the game.

*sigh* did you miss the part about separating casuals from new player vets and elites again? you really should work on your knowledge retention skills if you want to be part of long discussions.

The part you are referring to is from here:

What about the ACB rating and USK rating or do their ratings not matter? If you wanna get that technical...

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Then i recommend you stick to only your personal opinions and not speak of behalf of any community as a whole.

I didn't, I spoke on behalf of MYSELF, and my current and past friends, there is an obvious difference. Please stop committing straw man you are basically repeatably arguing with yourself indirectly and it's not helping anyone. Why do my personal experiences also not matter? Why do you keep claiming I am voicing their opinions and not also mine?

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Community is indeed people , both wonderful as well as terrible people. People can be a lot more biased and subjective than statistics and are easily swayed by emotions. Stats remain objective. Are you even aware what Category fallacy means? or are you even sure what i was highlighting when i talked about the stats.

If we are talking of fallacies then the biggest fallacy you are commiting is the fallacy of generalization , with the assumption that the few players you talked to is indicative of the entire community as a whole, if you want to be accurate you need a bigger base to talk to. Whatever info you have is insignificant compared to the information available to DE from their various reports.

However, you referenced your views of the Warframe community too; what makes you think you truly understand them better than me? I never directly stated or even implied that the few players and my own experiences directly represented this entire community. You are misrepresenting me again. Quit involving or referencing this community too, in this one-to-one debate, it's obviously between you and me, since you favor one's own opinions.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Then i recommend you stick to only your personal opinions and not speak of behalf of any community as a whole.

I highly recommend you do the same, as well...

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If we are talking of fallacies then the biggest fallacy you are commiting is the fallacy of generalization , with the assumption that the few players you talked to is indicative of the entire community as a whole, if you want to be accurate you need a bigger base to talk to. Whatever info you have is insignificant compared to the information available to DE from their various reports.

So you talked to this hypothetical bigger base? What did they state and what makes you certain they are the biggest base? As I've stated, DE, yes the actual authority of DE themselves, stated as their core game philosophy that they wanted this game's audience to be for both "elite" and "less-elite" players, so why not incorporate this same philosophy, that DE in the past approved, into SP Circuit?

On 2023-05-31 at 3:17 AM, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The majority of folks didn't like the past trials/raids, and this is one of the reasons of the complex list, because only the veterans dominated the game mode, which contradicts DE's core game philosophy of making all game modes have entry for both veteran and casual players alike. They stated this for the Eidolon (Tricap) main update, too! It's one of the reasons why players can unlock both Duviri Paradox and Steel Path within a month of playtime. Steel Path, by design, originally was never designed to have gate between casual and elite players. Hence Warframe has no true endgame...

Tell me how DE is the same thing as the entirety of Warframe's community? You claim I over-generalized the Warframe community but omitted where and my quote of it. I stated what DE supported, not what the Warframe community necessarily supported. Again the straw mans, oof. This is public information too, and they mentioned it on their dev streams, every now and then.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

And you value data too little or not at all it seems, a random jackass spouting nonsense and others agreeing with them (not necessarily what you have said so far) does not make it any more valid just cause more jackasses keep repeating it. You need to take all opinions with an unbiased view.

So how is this relevant to this thread if "(not necessarily what you have said so far)." Also, you are kinda referencing the Fallacy's Fallacy per se...just fyi

No need for ad hominem fallacies too!

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You are free to prove me wrong. I just have not seen something that is both challenging and casual at the same time in the same instance.

That's obviously a (subjective) area of topic regarding opinions than actual worthy facts. Which you are obviously trying to bait. As you've stated, "you have not seen," that is just your personal experience, not a proven fact. Opinions can be wrong, but when they are correct, they are then facts. There is a clear difference between the meanings and assumptions regarding the two concepts: opinions and facts, just FYI.

Just because I didn't see an elephant, in first-hand personal experiences, doesn't necessarily mean or prove it doesn't exist. Thus, you have no logical supportive reasoning for your (quoted) conclusion. So why should I care to logically counter-argue something that also doesn't have real practical evidence to support it? I don't even know what your argument and its reasoning truly is, I cannot read minds! If you counterargue that I have actually done this, well I did not, I referenced the commonly established fallacy: False Dichotomy, and I implied why. Again, you cannot make arguments including fallacies without at least supporting them. That is not a conformed method of argumentation.

If you think you are making arguments and not mere statements, then it's obviously not done in good faith. Please be honest with yourself, on how you handle analyze all of this.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

if you want to be accurate you need a bigger base to talk to. Whatever info you have is insignificant compared to the information available to DE from their various reports.

The first statement is irrelevant in supporting the later statement or conclusion because the bigger player base is clearly not DE. DE are the devs and staff, obviously.

The second statement or overall conclusion is thus committing the Appeal to Authority Fallacy because you lack any logical and/or objective evidence to support this.

Also, I don't even know what you are arguing against in this specific regard. I guess you could say you are arguing against my proposed over-generalization of the community, in your perspective, with your "appeal to authority" of DE.

However, arguing against a hypothetical argument, produced from initially committing Straw Man Fallacy, with then accusing me of Fallacy of Generalization, and then Appealing to Authority as its supportive main reason without any logically meaningful reason to support this Appeal to Authority is obviously a cluster mess of bad faith argumentation. Also, it's still technically not even a logical argument, but only a statement too.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Community is indeed people , both wonderful as well as terrible people. People can be a lot more biased and subjective than statistics and are easily swayed by emotions. Stats remain objective.

Stats are objective but that doesn't automatically and logically justify their actual value in truth or knowledge. Arguing otherwise, depending on how the counterargument goes can be a product of either of the common fallacies: Category Fallacy (which I mentioned because stats doesn't equal people's true mindsets), Statistical Fallacy (only if the regarded data is proven to be false or biased, so it's irrelevant in this case), or Absolutism Fallacy (This is the one I fear you might commit or have committed. Absolute statements/conclusions, in general, are rarely true because usually there are exceptions to such extreme statements. Just because some data states that most players use Wukong doesn't mean it's absolutely true within all groups of Warframe's community, for example. Some minority groups might have a different popular Warframe of choice.)

Edited June 1 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

What is common sense per se? It can have ambiguous meaning, please at least define it. Also, "common sense" isn't typically acceptable for supportive reasons regarding any arguments, even academic ones. I don't see any reason to give you any counter-reasoning if you don't at least support your conclusions with actual plain reasons. You have been simply omitting supportive reasons. You cannot just give a conclusion and argue it's true when it lacks any reasoning behind it. That's not critical thinking...it's not even arguing, just stating.

Did you miss the part about the thermometer? assuming Ambient temperature is X (20 degrees should be fine) anything below that is cold , anything above is hot , you cannot have it above x and below x at the same time. This is common sense , knowledge about certain aspects being true by observation , repeatability and experience, i am feeling weird i have to explain this .

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

What about the ACB rating and USK rating or do their ratings not matter? If you wanna get that technical...

Free to use either of the rating systems , neither allows children.

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I didn't, I spoke on behalf of MYSELF, and my current and past friends, there is an obvious difference. Please stop committing straw man you are basically repeatably arguing with yourself indirectly and it's not helping anyone. Why do my personal experiences also not matter? Why do you keep claiming I am voicing their opinions and not also mine?

However, you referenced your views of the Warframe community too; what makes you think you truly understand them better than me? I never directly stated or even implied that the few players and my own experiences directly represented this entire community. You are misrepresenting me again. Quit involving or referencing this community too, in this one-to-one debate, it's obviously between you and me, since you favor one's own opinions.

I highly recommend you do the same, as well...

I never really spoke for anyone other than myself,

It really did sound like you did , but if that was not your intention , then my apologies. Sometimes it is difficult to convert intention to text.

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

So you talked to this hypothetical bigger base? What did they state and what makes you certain they are the biggest base? As I've stated, DE, yes the actual authority of DE themselves, stated as their core game philosophy that they wanted this game's audience to be for both "elite" and "less-elite" players, so why not incorporate this same philosophy, that DE in the past approved, into SP Circuit?

I never claimed i spoke to any base , all my examples were personal ones , nor was i begging on behalf of anyone in particular.

I have no idea where you came up with the assumption that DE has any sort of "casual", "elite" or "non elite" players classification. you will have to quote it for my reference. The Stats that DE shares on their yearly usage stats is a reference for their bigger base of stats available to them.

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Tell me how DE is the same thing as the entirety of Warframe's community? You claim I over-generalized the Warframe community but omitted where and my quote of it. I stated what DE supported, not what the Warframe community necessarily supported. Again the straw mans, oof. This is public information too, and they mentioned it on their dev streams, every now and then.

DE is not the entire community but they are still part of it , they only have more info than you , or me or some random players for that matter. You are asking for things to be made easy for new and casual players as if they all have the same problem, how is that not generalizing?

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

So how is this relevant to this thread if "(not necessarily what you have said so far)." Also, you are kinda referencing the Fallacy's Fallacy per se...just fyi

No need for ad hominem fallacies too!

It is about how opinions backed by statistics is worth more than than just opinions. It was relevant to the topic only to set the context. Not sure how it was a personal insult? apologies if it came out that way.

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

That's obviously a (subjective) area of topic regarding opinions than actual worthy facts. Which you are obviously trying to bait. As you've stated, "you have not seen," that is just your personal experience, not a proven fact. Opinions can be wrong, but when they are correct, they are then facts. There is a clear difference between the meanings and assumptions regarding the two concepts: opinions and facts, just FYI.

Just because I didn't see an elephant, in first-hand personal experiences, doesn't necessarily mean or prove it doesn't exist. Thus, you have no logical supportive reasoning for your (quoted) conclusion. So why should I care to logically counter-argue something that also doesn't have real practical evidence to support it? I don't even know what your argument and its reasoning truly is, I cannot read minds! If you counterargue that I have actually done this, well I did not, I referenced the commonly established fallacy: False Dichotomy, and I implied why. Again, you cannot make arguments including fallacies without at least supporting them. That is not a conformed method of argumentation.

If you think you are making arguments and not mere statements, then it's obviously not done in good faith. Please be honest with yourself, on how you handle analyze all of this.

i guess so ? i have made both arguments and statements , i suppose it would be difficult to identify which is which if you read it without emphasis.

A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven to be true or false through objective evidence. An opinion is a statement that expresses a feeling, an attitude, a value judgment, or a belief. It is a statement that is neither true nor false.

So how will you be able to prove your opinions are correct is the question.

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The first statement is irrelevant in supporting the later statement or conclusion because the bigger player base is clearly not DE. DE are the devs and staff, obviously.

The second statement or overall conclusion is thus committing the Appeal to Authority Fallacy because you lack any logical and/or objective evidence to support this.

Also, I don't even know what you are arguing against in this specific regard. I guess you could say you are arguing against my proposed over-generalization of the community, in your perspective, with your "appeal to authority" of DE.

However, arguing against a hypothetical argument, produced from initially committing Straw Man Fallacy, with then accusing me of Fallacy of Generalization, and then Appealing to Authority as its supportive main reason without any logically meaningful reason to support this Appeal to Authority is obviously a cluster mess of bad faith argumentation. Also, it's still technically not even a logical argument, but only a statement too.

Potentially , yes after all no evidence has been provided by either party to substantiate their claims ,

however i did not make the claims of stating facts (other than the hot and cold one which can be very easily proved) only opinions.

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Stats are objective but that doesn't automatically and logically justify their actual value in truth or knowledge. Arguing otherwise, depending on how the counterargument goes can be a product of either of the common fallacies: Category Fallacy (which I mentioned because stats doesn't equal people's true mindsets), Statistical Fallacy (only if the regarded data is proven to be false or biased, so it's irrelevant in this case), or Absolutism Fallacy (This is the one I fear you might commit or have committed. Absolute statements/conclusions, in general, are rarely true because usually there are exceptions to such extreme statements. Just because some data states that most players use Wukong doesn't mean it's absolutely true within all groups of Warframe's community, for example. Some minority groups might have a different popular Warframe of choice.)

Stats are not enough by and of themselves, of course. But they can be the basis of change or lack of , if you observe that of all the players that do play circuit are "casual" players , and those that play SP circuit are "elite" or "vet" players, would that be enough of a reason of change? probably not.

But if you see that of the "casual" players most dont go beyond stage 1 in SP, and if it is not an expected outcome then change would be more readily made,

If "elite" players are going to stage 69 (haha) in SP on average then there could be a reason for a different kind of change.

It is then time to find the various reason and come up with possible solutions.

Its very interesting that you mentioned absolutism , because i feel that is what you have done as well.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Free to use either of the rating systems , neither allows children.

Warframe's ACB rating is MA15+ and USK rating is MA16+, just FYI...this is kinda another controversial off-topic too, so let's just ignore it.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have no idea where you came up with the assumption that DE has any sort of "casual", "elite" or "non elite" players classification. you will have to quote it for my reference. The Stats that DE shares on their yearly usage stats is a reference for their bigger base of stats available to them.

I tried to in the past, but also in fact, I cannot find the specific quote per se because there are so many past dev streams, and it's so long ago. I did recently mention a reference with hints of it, but you irrelevantly started complaining about Eidolons, in general. The below quote was my previous reference to this.

14 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

From update patch notes: 

DE does have the core game philosophy to make all game modes accessible and "fun to play" from ALL player-groups of warframe's community, except very new players that obviously haven't reached ingame requirements per game modes, which is why those ingame requirements already existed. 
Eidolons game mode can be accessed and fun to play as casual players, but most folks are arguing the opposite for the current SP Circuit, or are they not?

Also, they did use the term "veteran players," before...

(Patch Notes) Reference: 

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

DE is not the entire community but they are still part of it , they only have more info than you , or me or some random players for that matter. You are asking for things to be made easy for new and casual players as if they all have the same problem, how is that not generalizing?

You formerly accused me of generalization fallacy, not just generalizing. If you argue that plainly generalizing is flawed that is an off-topic and philosophical (maybe) controversial debate. Folks generalize most groups of things in everyday life, such as real-life politics and even species. For example, we generalized that dogs often bark when something is near their territory.
Over-generalizing is bad, but not plainly generalizing, which most common people currently do. This shouldn't be confused with prejudgements either, which has a different meaning.
The Generalization Fallacy is also sometimes called the Over-Generalization Fallacy. 
We also support generalized conclusions with statistical data, too.

For reference: https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-hasty-generalization/

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven to be true or false through objective evidence. An opinion is a statement that expresses a feeling, an attitude, a value judgment, or a belief. It is a statement that is neither true nor false. So how will you be able to prove your opinions are correct is the question.
....

however i did not make the claims of stating facts (other than the hot and cold one which can be very easily proved) only opinions.

So, I have to prove my opinions are correct, but you don't need to prove your recent opinions?

I'm just gonna say, the hot and cold example is a real-life analogy. Not necessarily a relevant analogy to game design philosophies, which are more complex and a completely different category of a system.

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am also not saying it cannot be improved upon , but asking for things to be hot and cold at the same time is not possible. You cannot appease the section of the community that enjoys challenge while also making it casual friendly, That is the exact reason we had steel path , and it partially met that condition but also failed in its core principle.

The problem with this is what's exactly defined or corresponds to "casual friendly" and "challenging," which can go into semantics and/or vastly subjective opinions. I can argue Warframe's Conclave atm can be played by casual players, but also by PvP "experts" that want a true challenge, or even both in the same session!
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Also, I just want to point out that in Warframe's years of 2020-2022, Wukong Prime is the most popular used Warframe according to Warframe's statistical data from their official website. I can then support this generalized argument, "Most Warframe players use Wukong Prime" with this same statistical data.

Reference: https://www.warframe.com/2022stats

Edited June 1 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Warframe's ACB rating is MA15+ and USK rating is MA16+, just FYI...this is kinda another controversial off-topic too, so let's just ignore it.

i am ok to drop or to discuss in a different thread.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I tried to in the past, but also in fact, I cannot find the specific quote per se because there are so many past dev streams, and it's so long ago. I did recently mention a reference with hints of it, but you irrelevantly started complaining about Eidolons, in general. The below quote was my previous reference to this.

Also, they did use the term "veteran players," before...

(Patch Notes) Reference: 

 

Again , no reference to Elite vs casual that i can see.

Only veterans , founders and prime access supporters , and i have already made my stance on veterans in earlier comments.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You formerly accused me of generalization fallacy, not just generalizing. If you argue that plainly generalizing is flawed that is an off-topic and philosophical (maybe) controversial debate. Folks generalize most groups of things in everyday life, such as real-life politics and even species. For example, we generalized that dogs often bark when something is near their territory.

Over-generalizing is bad, but not plainly generalizing, which most common people currently do. This shouldn't be confused with prejudgements either, which has a different meaning.
The Generalization Fallacy is also sometimes called the Over-Generalization Fallacy. 
We also support generalized conclusions with statistical data, too.

For reference: https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-hasty-generalization/

 

I know the definition , thats why i accused you of it. As you are asking for changes for "new and casual" players experience when you only have a limited sample group to base your claim on while there is not even a proper definition of what casual would be or new would be.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

So, I have to prove my opinions are correct, but you don't need to prove your recent opinions?

I'm just gonna say, the hot and cold example is a real-life analogy. Not necessarily a relevant analogy to game design philosophies, which are more complex and a completely different category of a system.

Yes, you need to prove your opinions if you want to claim they are facts.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The problem with this is what's exactly defined or corresponds to "casual friendly" and "challenging," which can go into semantics and/or vastly subjective opinions. I can argue Warframe's Conclave atm can be played by casual players, but also by PvP "experts" that want a true challenge, or even both in the same session!

If you cannot objectively define casual or challenging then your main topic is moot , as nothing you do can be considered casual friendly in every context. i think you are getting close to what i was trying to explain in the first place.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Also, I just want to point out that in Warframe's years of 2020-2022, Wukong Prime is the most popular used Warframe according to Warframe's statistical data from their official website. I can then support this generalized argument, "Most Warframe players use Wukong Prime" with this same statistical data.

Reference: https://www.warframe.com/2022stats

There is a way to read data that depends on the person articulating as well as syntax and context , not sure if you were being sarcastic or if you were genuinely trying to state the quoted remark as fact.

now lets take a look at your sentence

"Most Warframe players use Wukong Prime" - now lets take a look at the stats,

Wukong prime usage: 9.02%,

Most Players usage : needs to be more than 50%.

At what point does the usage cross 50% amongst top used frames? Wukong ,

Number of players using wukong more than 50% of time: unavailable ,

Conclusion:

Players use 15 frames most of the time (of which 3 are repeated as primes/regular variants) the top of which is Wukong prime.

There is not enough data if the higher wukong number is due to more players using wukong or more game time per player using wukong, so the available data is inconclusive to prove your statement.

If you had just said "Wukong prime is the most used frame" you would have been more accurate.

 

Edited June 1 by 0_The_F00l

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I know the definition , thats why i accused you of it. As you are asking for changes for "new and casual" players experience when you only have a limited sample group to base your claim on while there is not even a proper definition of what casual would be or new would be.

It seems you want to argue about semantics now, for some irrelevant dull reason. I think it's safe to assume I, along with most people in this very forum, use the words "casual" and "new"  with the conventional and common meanings pertaining to the English language. If you are displeased with the conventional regular meanings of "casual" and/or "new," then why don't you define what they ought to be? Then we can work from there...

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Yes, you need to prove your opinions if you want to claim they are facts.

My previous question was a rhetorical question and implied that it was an unfair situation in that I have to prove my opinion is factual when you don't have to prove your opinions are factual either. But anyways, let's move on beyond that...

What exact opinion (without committing straw man) am I supposed to prove, again? Because I honestly thought I have already in that previous post, but I guess I assumed the wrong one. Also, the "hot and cold" example you provided was irrelevant because it has to be with real-life physics, not the relevant topic at hand, which is game design, which is clearly not a field of physics. Physics is a scientific field of study whereas game design is more of a system of art. (common sense)

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If you cannot objectively define casual or challenging then your main topic is moot , as nothing you do can be considered casual friendly in every context. i think you are getting close to what i was trying to explain in the first place.

One could define those two terms with their conventional meanings from the English Dictionary:

Casual (adjective): relaxed and unconcerned.
Challenging (adjective): inviting competition; provocative.

You keep referencing the words, "casual" and "challenging" as if they are undefinable or flawed when you keep using these terms as meaningful references. While other common people use these terms in their everyday lives with their common established meanings (both in this game and other games).

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Again , no reference to Elite vs casual that i can see.

I quoted from this patch notes, previously: "Veteran Tenno will have no problem completing it or helping new players complete it."

"Veteran" is usually used as a synonym for "Elite" in everyday language.
"Casual" can be used as a synonym for "New Player" in everyday language.

Reference: 

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

i think you are getting close to what i was trying to explain in the first place.

Which is what exactly? Are you able to explain this?

On 2023-05-31 at 4:39 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Casual is not the same as inexperienced and so is not in opposition to "Vets", You need to understand properly what each of these terms implies if we are to discuss further.

More like "we" need to understand properly what each of these terms implies if we are to discuss further. The beauty of semantics, along with the philosophy of language, is you can define a word in any way you want to.

Casual (adjective): inexperienced.
Veterans (adjective): experienced.

I think you are taking advantage of the very nature of multiple ambiguous meanings of the conventional English meanings (check the widely established dictionary if you want an authority figure) of these words and using them to argue against their game jargon versions. Doing so would be committing a straw man...

Are you actually arguing in Good Faith, atm?

Arguing that these terms can only have one absolute and correct meaning requires both arguing against the common English Dictionary and Absolutism Fallacy.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

If you had just said "Wukong prime is the most used frame" you would have been more accurate.

You are correct in this regard, thank you for that. I was wrong in this specific regard.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Most Players usage : needs to be more than 50%.

At what point does the usage cross 50% amongst top used frames? Wukong ,

Number of players using wukong more than 50% of time: unavailable ,

Let's talk hypothetically regarding this. If Wukong has a true usage of 51%, would you then argue that the majority of this player base plays Wukong?

Edited June 1 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

28 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

It seems you want to argue about semantics now, for some irrelevant dull reason. I think it's safe to assume I, along with most people in this very forum, use the words "casual" and "new"  with the conventional and common meanings pertaining to the English language. If you are displeased with the conventional regular meanings of "casual" and/or "new," then why don't you define what they ought to be? Then we can work from there...

I have been arguing about semantics since quite some time, its probably only now that you noticed it. I already gave my definition, which i assume you ignored. Multiple times i might add, its as if you don't read what has been written. You have even quoted specific comments from the same post in your latest reply.

33 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

My previous question was a rhetorical question and implied that it was an unfair situation in that I have to prove my opinion is factual when you don't have to prove your opinions are factual either. But anyways, let's move on beyond that...

But i am not making factual claims - i am very clear that i only have my own opinions.

33 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

What exact opinion (without committing straw man) am I supposed to prove, again? Because I honestly thought I have already in that previous post, but I guess I assumed the wrong one.

That majority players that are either new or casual needs an easier access to SP circuit.

37 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

One could define those two terms with their conventional meanings from the English Dictionary:

Casual (adjective): relaxed and unconcerned.
Challenging (adjective): inviting competition; provocative.

We are playing warframe , please define within the relevance of this context.

38 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You keep referencing the words, "casual" and "challenging" as if they are undefinable or flawed when you keep using these terms as meaningful references. While other common people use these terms in their everyday lives with their common established meanings (both in this game and other games).

They are flawed when applied to the context of players or missions in warframe , cause what is considered casual by one may be considered challenging by another there is no objective meaning only subjective ones.

39 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I quoted from this patch notes, previously: "Veteran Tenno will have no problem completing it or helping new players complete it."

"Veteran" is usually used as a synonym for "Elite" in everyday language.
"Casual" can be used as a synonym for "New Player" in everyday language.

Then your reference is flawed, both within and outside the game.

42 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Which is what exactly? Are you able to explain this?

More like "we" need to understand properly what each of these terms implies if we are to discuss further. The beauty of semantics, along with the philosophy of language, is you can define a word in any way you want to.

Casual (adjective): inexperienced.
Veterans (adjective): experienced.

well you at least got half of it right.

43 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I think you are taking advantage of the very nature of multiple ambiguous meanings of the conventional English meanings (check the widely established dictionary if you want an authority figure) of these words and using them to argue against their game jargon versions. Doing so would be committing a straw man...

Feel free to think as you want. as you keep jumping back and forth between in game and out of game all over the place.

45 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Are you actually arguing in Good Faith, atm?

Arguing that these terms can only have one absolute and correct meaning requires both arguing against the common English Dictionary and Absolutism Fallacy.

That is why setting context is important , we obviously differ in what we refer to each term as.

46 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You are correct in this regard, thank you for that. I was wrong in this specific regard.

We are all only human to make mistakes.

49 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Let's talk hypothetically regarding this. If Wukong has a true usage of 51%, would you then argue that the majority of this player base plays Wukong?

not sure , what would the actual stats and raw data look like? are you saying wukong prime would have 51% instead of 9.02 % or is this a completely new stat?

 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

But i am not making factual claims - i am very clear that i only have my own opinions.

Then I don't see why I should do the opposite in this same regard.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That majority players that are either new or casual needs an easier access to SP circuit.

Not sure what you mean by "access?" Do you mean to unlock SP Circuit?...because this is not what I have argued, at all?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

We are playing warframe , please define within the relevance of this context

There is no relevance and you are technically correct in this regard. It was stated to build upon the upcoming additional definitions.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

They are flawed when applied to the context of players or missions in warframe , cause what is considered casual by one may be considered challenging by another there is no objective meaning only subjective ones.

This has to do with the very spectrum of the gauge of what's considered casual to what's considered challenging. You have been overlooking this spectrum. You need to mention how this argument, which I agree with, is both necessarily relevant and what does it necessarily oppose? Atm, in this given context, it just states that "casual" and "challenging" are subjective concepts.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Then your reference is flawed, both within and outside the game.

You are merely stating again. How so? What is your reasoning?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

well you at least got half of it right.

Which half is wrong, and what's wrong with it? Also, why?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

That is why setting context is important , we obviously differ in what we refer to each term as.

You do realize I can use the terms, "casual" and "veteran" with different definitions than your usage of them, and both groups of definitions can work?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

not sure , what would the actual stats and raw data look like? are you saying wukong prime would have 51% instead of 9.02 % or is this a completely new stat?

This a completely new and hypothetical stat. Just assume that it's statistically supported and factually that 51% of this hypothetical player base plays Wukong.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have been arguing about semantics since quite some time, its probably only now that you noticed it. I already gave my definition, which i assume you ignored. Multiple times i might add, its as if you don't read what has been written. You have even quoted specific comments from the same post in your latest reply.

You argued that "casual" doesn't mean inexperienced and doesn't oppose "veteran." I must admit those are vague definitions of both words, but whatever. The thing is, your definitions are only relevant when you used the associated words in your "hypothetical thread post" NOT MINE, my definitions can be relevant to my thread post, but not to your main personal opinion, in the same respect. If you want to criticize/undermine my usage of using mere words in how they logically support my premise, you are forced to adopt my assumptions, including my own definitions of associated words. Unless you are criticizing I am using a (publically) conformed definition of a word incorrectly due to the typical English Dictionary supporting otherwise, then you may do so! Doing otherwise is just disagreeing that both sides have different definitions/assumptions and/or opinions, which is just largely subjective and ends nowhere.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I'll give a Warframe-related example since real-world examples are too hard to understand and irrelevant for some odd reason...

Example: Person A stated, "Potato is round."

Person A assumes that the representation of "potato" is orokin catalyst.

Person B assumed the representation of "potato" as orokin reactor at first, but then understands and adopts Person's A representation of the label: "potato" when Person A then mentions its color is "blue."

"Potato" is common (Warframe) jargon so it can mean basically either representation (orokin reactor or orokin catalyst), its meaning just has to be used consistently within w/e given context. So if you define/represent "potato" as specifically orokin reactor, you cannot mention it in topics regarding weapon load-outs obviously because that's an inconsistent flow of logic.

To argue against any statement, one must acknowledge its associated assumptions. To argue against an assumption one has to acknowledge its represented meaning, within the given context.

How can one argue SoulFrame sucks, when the person doesn't even know what it is yet...because it doesn't even exist, for example?!?!

Edited June 1 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

6 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Then I don't see why I should do the opposite in this same regard.

You don't need to as long as you are clear that we are only arguing about opinions.

7 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Not sure what you mean by "access?" Do you mean to unlock SP Circuit?...because this is not what I have argued, at all?

I am talking about the purpose of this topic, your very first post.

8 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

 

There is no relevance and you are technically correct in this regard. It was stated to build upon the upcoming additional definitions.

This has to do with the very spectrum of the gauge of what's considered casual to what's considered challenging. You have been overlooking this spectrum. You need to mention how this argument, which I agree with, is both necessarily relevant and what does it necessarily oppose? Atm, in this given context, it just states that "casual" and "challenging" are subjective concepts.

I keep asking for definitions cause they are subjective , as long as we could define  the context we could agree (or disagree) if whatever you are requesting is suitable or not in my opinion.

Something i have not really gotten yet from you that actually is objective.

16 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You are merely stating again. How so? What is your reasoning?

You already mentioned that above yourself.

21 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Which half is wrong, and what's wrong with it? Also, why?

The wrong one of course,

The opposite of a veteran would be a rookie not casual. That should be enough of a hint.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You do realize I can use the terms, "casual" and "veteran" with different definitions than your usage of them, and both groups of definitions can work?

Not if you don't explain what those definitions are so we can actually relate and discuss. It's fine and dandy if you are only having a discussion with yourself. But if you expect to have one with other you need to be clear about what you mean. Which o have to say has gone poorly so far.

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

This a completely new and hypothetical stat. Just assume that it's statistically supported and factually that 51% of this hypothetical player base plays Wukong.

Ok ... So ?

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am talking about the purpose of this topic, your very first post.

On 2023-05-25 at 11:44 PM, CosmicHermitCrab said:

The point of this thread is to show that SP Circuit can be easily cheesed with a customized Operator (legitly) and it's not such an impressive feat to accomplish. Thus, why not just make it easier and more fun for the bigger casual playerbase? Also, I think extra Duviri intrinsics should be another form of currency for buying random (weapon choices) loadout rerolls. They are nonexistent of any use, atm.
Newer players are already overwhelmed by many layers of poorly explained content in Warframe and they, along with future generations, will be needed to grow the Warframe community.
For once I agree with the newbies, what's the point of making the game harder in this new game mode (if I can easily cheese it with the operator)? 
(Full live run of the SP Circuit Mission with only Operator in Video's Description)

Edit: New Argument: I am worried the Circuit game mode might be too limiting, atm. There is a need for balance with such a game mode and atm it's too limiting for mid-tier players. At least let them choose their basic (default) mods, from the current default mod pool, for the default mod loadouts instead of just giving them poorly optimized premade default loadouts.

What specifically from this thread's original post? I'm assuming: "Thus, why not just make it easier and more fun for the bigger casual player base?" What about this is necessarily incoherent to understand? You seem to be the only one here...

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You already mentioned that above yourself.

This is not a constructive reply, please specify; I cannot read minds. Thus, I'll ignore it.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The wrong one of course,

The opposite of a veteran would be a rookie not casual. That should be enough of a hint.

Abusing semantics again...arguing in bad faith. I don't see a reason to take you seriously from now on. Both words can mean the same thing, and I can use jargon, including game jargon, however way I like it.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Not if you don't explain what those definitions are so we can actually relate and discuss. It's fine and dandy if you are only having a discussion with yourself. But if you expect to have one with other you need to be clear about what you mean. Which o have to say has gone poorly so far.

Okay, I'll copy and paste what I already stated in great detail and effort that you completely ignored with bad faith, once again.

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You argued that "casual" doesn't mean inexperienced and doesn't oppose "veteran." I must admit those are vague definitions of both words, but whatever. The thing is, your definitions are only relevant when you used the associated words in your "hypothetical thread post" NOT MINE, my definitions can be relevant to my thread post, but not to your main personal opinion, in the same respect. If you want to criticize/undermine my usage of using mere words in how they logically support my premise, you are forced to adopt my assumptions, including my own definitions of associated words. Unless you are criticizing I am using a (publically) conformed definition of a word incorrectly due to the typical English Dictionary supporting otherwise, then you may do so! Doing otherwise is just disagreeing that both sides have different definitions/assumptions and/or opinions, which is just largely subjective and ends nowhere.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I'll give a Warframe-related example since real-world examples are too hard to understand and irrelevant for some odd reason...

Example: Person A stated, "Potato is round."

Person A assumes that the representation of "potato" is orokin catalyst.

Person B assumed the representation of "potato" as orokin reactor at first, but then understands and adopts Person's A representation of the label: "potato" when Person A then mentions its color is "blue."

"Potato" is common (Warframe) jargon so it can mean basically either representation (orokin reactor or orokin catalyst), its meaning just has to be used consistently within w/e given context. So if you define/represent "potato" as specifically orokin reactor, you cannot mention it in topics regarding weapon load-outs obviously because that's an inconsistent flow of logic.

To argue against any statement, one must acknowledge its associated assumptions. To argue against an assumption one has to acknowledge its represented meaning, within the given context.

How can one argue SoulFrame sucks, when the person doesn't even know what it is yet...because it doesn't even exist, for example?!?!

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ok ... So ?

Is that a Yes or No? Or is that too hard of a question to answer per se?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Something i have not really gotten yet from you that actually is objective.

Kinda hard to understand someone that has literally no argument because it doesn't exist because they purposefully omit time and time again to clarify what they are opposing.

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The opposite of a veteran would be a rookie not casual. That should be enough of a hint.

You just referenced "veteran" and voiced an opinion that it's the opposite of "rookie." So what's your exact definition of a "veteran" then? Or does it not exist, again?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I keep asking for definitions cause they are subjective , as long as we could define  the context we could agree (or disagree) if whatever you are requesting is suitable or not in my opinion.
...

Something i have not really gotten yet from you that actually is objective.

...

Not if you don't explain what those definitions are so we can actually relate and discuss. It's fine and dandy if you are only having a discussion with yourself. But if you expect to have one with other you need to be clear about what you mean. Which o have to say has gone poorly so far.

Kinda hard to make something objective if it's already subjective, just saying...So why are you trolling, atm?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

...not in my opinion.

Cool story, so what's your opinion then? Or are you gonna dodge all of these questions again? And just repeatably reply with one-liners without much effort?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The opposite of a veteran would be a rookie not casual. That should be enough of a hint.

What is a "veteran?" What is a "rookie?" What is a "casual?" You typed and used the actual words, you must have some associated meanings with them. Words after all are just merely words, just labels...unless you give them a representation of meanings.

On 2023-05-31 at 4:39 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

I consider myself a casual player...

So what does "casual" mean again? In this context? Also, I don't define you as a casual player because that's my personal "objective" opinion. (pun intended)

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

5 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Casual (adjective): inexperienced.
Veterans (adjective): experienced.

well you at least got half of it right.

You disagreed with my definitions, so what do you propose then? If you already proposed, why not use those definitions?

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The opposite of a veteran would be a rookie not casual. That should be enough of a hint.

With your level of troll logic, I could counter-argue that a veteran player can be a rookie.

Rookie: new recruit
Veteran: newbie

Example: The veteran player of Warframe is now a rookie after a long hiatus.

Quit it with the troll gaslighting. You are embarrassing yourself...

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

You don't need to as long as you are clear that we are only arguing about opinions.

...

Something i have not really gotten yet from you that actually is objective.

Opinions cannot be objective, so yeah...you have quite irrational standards, atm.

5 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I quoted from this patch notes, previously: "Veteran Tenno will have no problem completing it or helping new players complete it."

Next, you responded with...

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Then your reference is flawed, both within and outside the game.

The very reference to DE's patch notes is flawed. What an arrogant argument.
reference: 

14 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

And you value data too little or not at all it seems, a random jackass spouting nonsense and others agreeing with them (not necessarily what you have said so far) does not make it any more valid just cause more jackasses keep repeating it. You need to take all opinions with an unbiased view.

Define the term "jackass"...I think they can be quite reasonable, especially if you place a carrot in front of their point of view.

14 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

...

...

There is already a casual mode for casual players. And children should not be playing the game at all.

Then why did you reference "children" when you think they clearly don't play Warframe? Posting an irrelevant comedic meme to any feedback argument is unconstructive. Again, why did you reference "children" when no one clearly mentioned them but only you, especially in response to "supporting the bigger casual player base?" It seems you already know what "casual" means...something to do with children, clearly.

You would be quite a good comedian...

4 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I have been arguing about semantics since quite some time, its probably only now that you noticed it. I already gave my definition, which i assume you ignored. Multiple times i might add, its as if you don't read what has been written. You have even quoted specific comments from the same post in your latest reply.

Nah, I read them and replied to them even; you just nitpicked around them continuously. (I might as well apply your level of double standards in practice.)

Edited June 1 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

9 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You would be quite a good comedian...

Thank you :)

9 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

-snip-

So many things taken out of context  *sigh* 

Very well let's break it down into the 4 specific things i am trying to articulate to make it easier for both of us. These four points are related but can also be argued individually.

1) Definitions:

New players for warframe in my opinion would be those that don't have the mods to make even one full build , like the ones that exist in the default loadouts on circuit. Cause they lack the endo , forma , reactor or catalyst and the actual mods to do so.

Veteran players in warframe are those that have more experience , game mechanics understanding , completed most of the quests , and have multiple loadouts and builds for multiple weapons and frames as per their preference.There is an actual definition of this in the dictionary , and that aligns with my view.

Casual players are ones that don't have any long term goal outside of having fun, in a relaxed form and aren't bothered by what happens outside of their zone. This is not limited to warframe. But can be very subjective and hard to pin down as it can  hange over time.

Elite players are ones you can be assured will carry you through any mission in the game in the most efficient manner. They may have better skill or better gear or both than average.

Hope that elevates some of the confusion. The above need not always be mutually exclusive (but you can't be vet and new at the same time cause they require mutually exclusive qualities).

2) You are asking for the SP circuit be made easier for casual and new players. As per my above definition new players really aren't ready for SP they have the whole rest of the game to go though to collect the resources to make them ready. And casual players will not bother with it if it's not fun in the first place to have randomisation , no matter how many mod config changes you make. This is of course just my opinion i don't claim it as a fact , i am sure there are a few new players and casual players that would be bothered.

3) Everyone is free to have their opinions , but if you want to claim that your opinion is fact then you need to back up your opinions with evidence that is objective and true with no margin of misunderstanding.

4) i like to include humour and pop culture references to keep the discussions relatively light, since clearly you did not get the reference made the humour was lost.

 

As to the 51% wukong usage , i am not sure what you are asking , would majority of players be playing wukong ? Probably , but i do not really know what the actual stats are.

[GPrime96]

On 2023-05-30 at 5:47 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

That is when they know what mods to use (at what level) on their weapons to be good enough to clear the star chart without using any forma or potatoes,

With the Warframes we have to reach SP without the assistance of weapons outside of Boss Fights, i can see that being doable 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

11 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

1) Definitions:

New players for warframe in my opinion would be those that don't have the mods to make even one full build , like the ones that exist in the default loadouts on circuit. Cause they lack the endo , forma , reactor or catalyst and the actual mods to do so.

Veteran players in warframe are those that have more experience , game mechanics understanding , completed most of the quests , and have multiple loadouts and builds for multiple weapons and frames as per their preference.There is an actual definition of this in the dictionary , and that aligns with my view.

Casual players are ones that don't have any long term goal outside of having fun, in a relaxed form and aren't bothered by what happens outside of their zone. This is not limited to warframe. But can be very subjective and hard to pin down as it can  hange over time.

Elite players are ones you can be assured will carry you through any mission in the game in the most efficient manner. They may have better skill or better gear or both than average.

Hope that elevates some of the confusion. The above need not always be mutually exclusive (but you can't be vet and new at the same time cause they require mutually exclusive qualities).

2) You are asking for the SP circuit be made easier for casual and new players. As per my above definition new players really aren't ready for SP they have the whole rest of the game to go though to collect the resources to make them ready. And casual players will not bother with it if it's not fun in the first place to have randomisation , no matter how many mod config changes you make. This is of course just my opinion i don't claim it as a fact , i am sure there are a few new players and casual players that would be bothered.

3) Everyone is free to have their opinions , but if you want to claim that your opinion is fact then you need to back up your opinions with evidence that is objective and true with no margin of misunderstanding.

Under no authority am I forced to use your definitions was one of my past points, when I want to voice my own opinions. Your definitions can be irrelevant to my original thread post because I am the one that made the thread post, not you. In my original thread post, I assumed, with my own definitions, that both "casual players" and "new players" have similar meanings, which is the "less experienced" type of players, except that "casual players" have a little bit more experience than "new players." These definitions do differ from your own, but the associated words are game terminologies (jargon), and there is ultimately no true authority of this given jargon. There is no fact here and my original opinion is that SP Circuit should be improved to be easier and more fun for "casual and new players."

Arguing otherwise that I cannot use my regarded definitions of jargon requires the justification of a factual claim, which is not an opinion.

26 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

As to the 51% wukong usage , i am not sure what you are asking , would majority of players be playing wukong ? Probably , but i do not really know what the actual stats are.

This is a bit off-topic but was relevant because you mentioned views (opinions) of how to view populations of persons, in general. This is more of a fun topic.

My planned point is if someone argued that 51% of a population represents the "majority of a player base," when it's only by 1%...is that really a fair and practical representation of this population's majority group? If 51% can't be regarded as the majority of a population, then what exact margin ought to be enough to be considered the population's majority? 60%? 75%? More? If you incorporate this with standard voting systems, whichever vote has the most votes wins, you can then ask yourself does the minority of the votes not matter? If person A won by 98% votes, does that 2% of person B have absolutely no justified importance?

Just something to think about...