SP Circuit can be Cheesed Legitly as Operator; Why the Strict Random Choices?

[Frendh]

On 2023-05-31 at 8:41 PM, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Eidolons game mode can be accessed and fun to play as casual players, but most folks are arguing the opposite for the current SP Circuit, or are they not?

This is not the perception I have. I see a lot of complaining and moaning about Tridolons having too high requirement for weapons, amps and focus school. As in they want the rewards but do not want to put in the time for the needed farm.  They rarely, if ever, state specifics. But I assume the people complaining have enough gear to do a tridolon or two per night but they want to easily be able to do more.

 

On 2023-05-31 at 8:41 PM, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Because the popular mindset atm in defending SP Circuit is that it should only be accessed by "Elite" players.

Even if it is true that there is a large group of people with that mindset, the fact is still SP Circuit is plenty easy. An unskilled squad can do 5 rounds of SP Circuit with default mods if they cooperate. I do not see what the problem is with doing as many rounds as you can, extract and then go again. If you can only do 2 rounds then do 2 rounds.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Under no authority am I forced to use your definitions was one of my past points, when I want to voice my own opinions. Your definitions can be irrelevant to my original thread post because I am the one that made the thread post, not you. In my original thread post, I assumed, with my own definitions, that both "casual players" and "new players" have similar meanings, which is the "less experienced" type of players, except that "casual players" have a little bit more experience than "new players." These definitions do differ from your own, but the associated words are game terminologies (jargon), and there is ultimately no true authority of this given jargon. There is no fact here and my original opinion is that SP Circuit should be improved to be easier and more fun for "casual and new players."

Arguing otherwise that I cannot use my regarded definitions of jargon requires the justification of a factual claim, which is not an opinion.

Nobody is forcing you to use any definition for your own use in your own head, but it you are trying to explain things to a broader audience it is your responsibility to be clear to avoid misunderstanding, that is the purpose of language and semantics,  as different people will construe it differently if everyone has their own meaning.

That is why common understanding is important between both parties to avoid unnecessary arguments.

 

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

 

This is a bit off-topic but was relevant because you mentioned views (opinions) of how to view populations of persons, in general. This is more of a fun topic.

My planned point is if someone argued that 51% of a population represents the "majority of a player base," when it's only by 1%...is that really a fair and practical representation of this population's majority group? If 51% can't be regarded as the majority of a population, then what exact margin ought to be enough to be considered the population's majority? 60%? 75%? More? If you incorporate this with standard voting systems, whichever vote has the most votes wins, you can then ask yourself does the minority of the votes not matter? If person A won by 98% votes, does that 2% of person B have absolutely no justified importance?

Just something to think about...

The minimum qualification for most is that it should be more than 50% - the same as a super majority -  so even 60 , 70 ,80 or 99.99% is still most (but not all) and there will always be those that are part of the remainder , which makes up whatever is not most but doesn't have to be least.

But that is not the full picture , as there can usually also be plurality conditions.

Where the largest set is considered.

So if we had a split like 40% , 30% , 30% 40% would be a plurality or simple majority.

The relevance or importance of it depends on the context.

Some procedures allow a simple majority , while some need a super majority to be acknowledged. Other times an opposition combined minority would also be sufficient to invalidate the vote.

This is really subject to the process under question and is beyond the scope of this discussion (happy to discuss in seperate thread) 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

29 minutes ago, Frendh said:

Even if it is true that there is a large group of people with that mindset, the fact is still SP Circuit is plenty easy.

Folks have complained about the defense mode of SP Circuit, lasers from Hollow Thrax Legatus, the current "biased" RNG nature of gear choices favoring more with unowned items, and of course the popular "too much" RNG" argument.
References:

29 minutes ago, Frendh said:

I do not see what the problem is with doing as many rounds as you can, extract and then go again. If you can only do 2 rounds then do 2 rounds.

It's just less rewarding in terms of being time efficient.
 

29 minutes ago, Frendh said:

This is not the perception I have. I see a lot of complaining and moaning about Tridolons having too high requirement for weapons, amps and focus school. As in they want the rewards but do not want to put in the time for the needed farm.  They rarely, if ever, state specifics. But I assume the people complaining have enough gear to do a tridolon or two per night but they want to easily be able to do more.

I could follow your former logic regarding SP Circuit and argue that the same pool of players can just kill one or two Eidolons instead, and then repeat.

However, tbh I agree with your overall conclusion that Tricaps have an unusually high item requirement than most game modes of Warframe. So you are correct in this regard.
 

Edited June 2 by CosmicHermitCrab
spacing

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, GPrime96 said:

With the Warframes we have to reach SP without the assistance of weapons outside of Boss Fights, i can see that being doable 

It is doable , it just requires proper game understanding , willingness and sometimes luck if you wish to use the bare minimum setup.

[Frendh]

15 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

It's just less rewarding in terms of being time efficient.

So they should improve themselves then. It is evidently quite possible.

15 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I could follow your former logic regarding SP Circuit and argue that the same pool of players can just kill one or two Eidolons instead, and then repeat.

Yes, similar(you need to do 1x3 for all rewards, 1 round is enough for all rewards in Circuit) applies there. Did I say or imply any different?

I personally have no issues with Tridolons. I contribute in a 3x3 and I am content with that. As opposed to the duo 5x3 I do with my mate, he does 5x3 solo.

15 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Folks have complained about the defense mode of SP Circuit, lasers from Hollow Thrax Legatus, the current "biased" RNG nature of gear choices favoring more with unowned items, and of course the popular "too much" RNG" argument.

So folks are complaining. Are you saying it is not easy?

Edited June 2 by Frendh

[CosmicHermitCrab]

7 minutes ago, Frendh said:

Yes, the same applies there. Did I say or imply any different?

I personally have no issues with Tridolons. I contribute in a 3x3 and I am content with that. As opposed to the duo 5x3 I do with my mate, he does 5x3 solo.

I literally stated 1 or 2 "Eidolons," not Tridolons, the ones before the Hydrolyst (third one).
 

7 minutes ago, Frendh said:

So folks are complaining. Are you saying it is not easy?

Difficulty is a spectrum, so for me, it may seem mediocre or easy in some regards. However, for less experienced players some of them might struggle.

Edited June 2 by CosmicHermitCrab

[Frendh]

4 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

However, for less experienced players some of them might struggle.

Which is fine. They still have access to everything.

3 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I literally stated 1 or 2 "Eidolons," not Tridolons, the ones before the Hydrolyst (third one).le.

You may have missed the edit. Doing 2 eidolons does not give you access to all rewards. Doing 1 round of Circuit does give you access to all rewards.

Edited June 2 by Frendh

[CosmicHermitCrab]

28 minutes ago, Frendh said:

Which is fine. They still have access to everything.

This is a huge overstatement. They have access to all the gear items with default premade mod loadouts, given we are referencing the same group. However, obviously gear items, both warframes and weapons in general, are more powerful with customized min-maxed builds than most default premade mod loadouts from circuit. They, which you referenced as "unskilled," are probably newer players, most likely, so they don't have access to all of the normal mods for customized loadouts, along with the actual gear items: warframes and weapons. A player with all owned gear items, along with all/most normal mods, obviously has the most advantage in Circuit game mode.

Also, you argued that default premade mod loadouts are enough to beat the "mid-tier" (one of the patch notes mentioned that the premade loadouts are good enough for mid-tier) circuit content. However, as many folks have complained, if you fail a Circuit round you get no rewards with its current high-risk and high-reward system.

The high-risk for high-reward issues is much lessened with owning gear items, along with their customized loadouts, because of what I previously mentioned: "A player with all owned gear items, along with all/most normal mods, obviously has the most advantage in Circuit game mode."

If they struggle too often, they might fail a few times, which can proportionally cut their total over-time rewards in playing Circuit, considering average luck and performance, too.

Also, even if they never fail the circuit game mode; the unskilled squads will beat circuit rounds slower than the more skilled squads, on average. This affects the total grind (considering also other grinds such as sorties) daily/weekly that the groups are rewarded, too. Time can be treated as a limited resource.

28 minutes ago, Frendh said:

You may have missed the edit. Doing 2 eidolons does not give you access to all rewards. Doing 1 round of Circuit does give you access to all rewards.

It at least rewards you with some of the arcanes, just not all of potential ones. Trading/selling excess arcanes from the other Eidolons can exist too, to compensate for not killing Hydrolyst, for example. Cannot really trade the rewards from Circuit, though...

 

Edited June 2 by CosmicHermitCrab

[Frendh]

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

This is a huge overstatement.

Poorly worded on my part. They have access to all the rewards.

1 hour ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Also, even if they never fail the circuit game mode; the unskilled squads will beat circuit rounds slower than the more skilled squads, on average. This affects the total grind (considering also other grinds such as sorties) daily/weekly that the groups are rewarded, too. Time can be treated as a limited resource.

Again, practice/farm more. Time is a limited resource. No disagreement there.

Edited June 2 by Frendh

[CosmicHermitCrab]

10 hours ago, Frendh said:

Poorly worded on my part. They have access to all the rewards.

Yeah, and the sky is blue while the ocean is also blue. Here's another mere fact: Circuit has default premade (static) mod loadouts, for both warframes and weapons.

Just because the players technically have access to all rewards of Circuit, doesn't mean the odds might be in their favor. Some players have clearly voiced that they want these odds aka RNG to be more inclined towards their "favor," and not towards being arbitrary either. RNG is a spectrum, doesn't have to be extreme on either side of it, too.

10 hours ago, Frendh said:

Again, practice/farm more.

Which takes/requires more time in total, we cannot time travel back in the past.

From seeing comments you like the current circuit mode due to opinion, but seem to completely disregard any potential merit of other's opposing opinion of it for simply being opinions (which is double standard btw)...Do you want the older player base of Warframe to have this permanent HUGE advantage over the newer player bases of circuit, similar to some gacha game communities? Older players of old online multiplayer games, such as Warframe, do "naturally" have advantages over the newer generations; however, there comes a point where this gauge of fairness of this spectrum of power creep is too extreme and can damage some groups within the community's population. DE has usually been trying to avoid this culprit in the past, IMO.

The older player base, given they are heavily invested naturally, has the most privilege in the current circuit mode, or do they not?

53 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Here's another mere fact: Circuit has default premade (static) mod loadouts.

I was mentioning this because this mechanic of the current circuit doesn't take advantage of decision-making very well, which is a game design flaw. Which I have mentioned in the past in this very thread. There are different ways of playing the same warframes, for example.

53 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Just because the players technically have access to all rewards of Circuit, doesn't mean the odds might be in their favor. Some players have clearly voiced that they want these odds aka RNG to be more inclined towards their "favor," and not towards being arbitrary either. RNG is a spectrum, doesn't have to be extreme on either side of it, too.

It's actually more of a mathematical factual claim that the RNG of gear choices alone isn't in favor of the vast player base, especially for warframe choices. Which I have already referenced, but will again:

Or is this reference clearly wrong or just mere complaining?

Edited June 2 by CosmicHermitCrab

[GPrime96]

3 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

From seeing comments you like the current circuit mode due to opinion, but seem to completely disregard any potential merit of other's opposing opinion of it for simply being opinions (which is double standard btw)...Do you want the older player base of Warframe to have this permanent HUGE advantage over the newer player bases of circuit, similar to some gacha game communities?

Wouldn’t be surprised if he do

[Frendh]

5 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Just because the players technically have access to all rewards of Circuit, doesn't mean the odds might be in their favor.

Odds needs to be in their favour for them to enjoy Circuit. But not to farm all the rewards.

5 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

(which is double standard btw)

Point out the double standard? I can't recall it.

5 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

From seeing comments you like the current circuit mode due to opinion, but seem to completely disregard any potential merit of other's opposing opinion of it for simply being opinions

Why would I give merit to something I disagree with? It is fine if you dislike something. But I am not going to suddenly stop liking something because you highlight everything you find negative about it.

5 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Do you want the older player base of Warframe to have this permanent HUGE advantage over the newer player bases of circuit, similar to some gacha game communities?

Yes.

There are players maxing out MR in less than a year. So the advantage is not that big. SP Circuit rewards are easily, but time costly, farmed with zero warframes and weapons owned. In addition to that Warframe is a really flat game, the difficulty increase per hour of content is really low. Most of the content is accessible early.  Only a few things like Arbitrations, Steel path and New War related things are accessed further down the line.

5 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

From seeing comments you like the current circuit mode due to opinion,

Of course I like something due to my opinion.  Why else would I like something?

 

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Circuit may seem  challenging due to randomization. Give people choice to pick their go to loadouts and its just a ordinary endless mission with a greater risks to loose all progress due to bugs or certain script malfunctions.

The rng weapons highlight more why there are popular and least popular weps. Some are great with small effort and some need to combine few game mechanics, with specific frames and subsumed abilities and arcanes to make it work. 

Decrees in a way lets people even more create franken builds of thing which other wise wouldnt work, but even then half of the time its just certain decrees which are worth and some are just meh. 

Then again sp version should be available after you complete normal starchart fully. Yet try make new account and play duviri path and try cheese with operator.... How will that go.

You cant compare having done other game content, have access to better tier stuff and then do missions where in 1 run you get 2 diferent drifters/operators... Its sad

on 1 place i got drifter calling horse, having some skills to smokescreen, see enemeies and regen health a bit, and in next min when doing undercroft i got same drifter, but with focus shcools with 2 skills, and a dash which lets me insta heal, group enemies and put shield on me and my allies... and thats before decrees even come into play.

 

 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

Odds needs to be in their favour for them to enjoy Circuit. But not to farm all the rewards.

Finally, a point where we can agree upon. However, farming the rewards isn't the priority of main criticism here, it's the enjoyment of Circuit.

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

There are players maxing out MR in less than a year. So the advantage is not that big. SP Circuit rewards are easily, but time costly, farmed with zero warframes and weapons owned. In addition to that Warframe is a really flat game, the difficulty increase per hour of content is really low. Most of the content is accessible early.  Only a few things like Arbitrations, Steel path and New War related things are accessed further down the line.

They are obviously the minority, given how many max MR players we currently have. A year of gameplay is still a lot of considerable time. Also, maxing MR is very different than being a completionist, aka (additionally) investing heavily in all related items (from being a maxed MR account). You can max MR and have very few owned items, which proves your point is largely irrelevant. Also, I said the older player base has a huge advantage, not just max MR players; try to avoid misrepresentation.

If Warframe keeps adopting such game mode systems in regards to Circuit, soon the veteran players aka older players will be the majority of Warframe's community after the overall population lessens was my point, which will be a marketing problem for DE.

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

Point out the double standard? I can't recall it.

You are arguing too concretely and the claim of "double standard" was just my argumentative opinion. Along with me implying you need a more open mind. It's possible one can like the current circuit while it's also flawly designed, but that doesn't mean it also shouldn't ought to be improved upon...

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

8 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

From seeing comments you like the current circuit mode due to opinion, but seem to completely disregard any potential merit of other's opposing opinion of it for simply being opinions (which is double standard btw).

Of course I like something due to my opinion.  Why else would I like something?

Please don't misquote me, it misrepresents me; especially if you omit the other half of the sentence that gives it its overall true meaning. It's manipulative to do so and continuing to argue from such methods is committing straw man. Also, to answer your direct question it seems like a common practice of double standards, to me, to not care about others' opinions due to them being simply opinions, while you also unequally care about your own opinions above their (other people's) own, especially without any strong objective claims to support yours.

It's also arrogant to do this and arguing others' points of view are irrelevant for simply being subjective or opinionated might as well be claiming the ultimate conclusion of nihilism, which is largely unconstructive.

Might as well be arguing the common mistake (meme) argument that Warframe is a flat game and already heavily unbalanced, so why continue to undergo balance updates? (rhetorical question)

Edited June 3 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

8 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Please don't misquote me, it misrepresents me; especially if you omit the other half of the sentence that gives it its overall true meaning. It's manipulative to do so and continuing to argue from such methods is committing straw man. 

Pot calling the kettle black?

Edited June 3 by 0_The_F00l

[Lord_Drod]

I how like this thread totally derailed into a philosophy argument, but DE kept it in the feedback section because the OP was quality, but yet moved some other threads with weaker OP, but better feedback content and moved them to "general discussion".  DE must not be really reading the threads at all.  To be fair, it doesn't bother me you guys are having a little back in forth.  I enjoy it, just don't like having to go back and forth between forums and the content of the thread is whats important, not necessarily the OP.  And I don't want to waste valuable time sending in my feedback that just gets tossed out in general discussion, but I guess thats easier than actually modding threads that completely derail like this one.

Edited June 3 by Lord_Drod

[CosmicHermitCrab]

9 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Pot calling the kettle black?

Is this another subjective insulting opinion that you are fancy of? Or do you actually have any relevant objective references to support such an opinion? Or is this another irrelevant pop culture reference, my dear comedian?

I have been quoting y'alls quotes in their full sentences with their full overall meanings, and no one complained that I have done misquoting. I expect the very same respect if you want me to constructively respond to y'alls criticisms. No one pointed out that I have been misquoting...

3 hours ago, Lord_Drod said:

I how like this thread totally derailed into a philosophy argument, but DE kept it in the feedback section because the OP was quality, but yet moved some other threads with weaker OP, but better feedback content and moved them to "general discussion".  DE must not be really reading the threads at all.  To be fair, it doesn't bother me you guys are having a little back in forth.  I enjoy it, just don't like having to go back and forth between forums and the content of the thread is whats important, not necessarily the OP.  And I don't want to waste valuable time sending in my feedback that just gets tossed out in general discussion, but I guess thats easier than actually modding threads that completely derail like this one.

Yeah, sorry about that...I'm a debate lord.

Edited June 3 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

21 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Is this another subjective insulting opinion that you are fancy of? Or do you actually have any relevant objective references to support such an opinion? Or is this another irrelevant pop culture reference, my dear comedian?

I have been quoting y'alls quotes in their full sentences with their full overall meanings, and no one complained that I have done misquoting. I expect the very same respect if you want me to constructively respond to y'alls criticisms. No one pointed out that I have been misquoting...

oh yes , i have the opinion that your criticism about misquotation and taking things partially from the whole conversation applies to you as well.

 

[CosmicHermitCrab]

5 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

oh yes , i have the opinion that your criticism about misquotation and taking things partially from the whole conversation applies to you as well.

I even asked how so, before. So where are the examples?

29 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Or do you actually have any relevant objective references to support such an opinion?

There's a claim that DE isn't fully reading this thread, so at least reference for them.

Otherwise, it's just an opinion with any merit.



You guys sure like unsupported subjective opinions...

Edited June 3 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

18 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I even asked how so, before. So where are the examples?

This thread is having you quote specific parts of the conversation while ignoring others since as early as page 2 , are you not reading your own replies??

20 minutes ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

 

There's a claim that DE isn't fully reading this thread, so at least reference for them.

Otherwise, it's just an opinion with any merit.

DE may be reading the thread or not, but there are other players reading through it and they can make their own observations. On which opinion has merit.

[CosmicHermitCrab]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

This thread is having you quote specific parts of the conversation while ignoring others since as early as page 2 , are you not reading your own replies??

I quoted the sentences and statements that I thought were relevant for my given responses, for the given contexts. Otherwise, I would have to make bigger reply posts containing the entire quote multiple times. This is a common procedure for arguing anywhere in the internet forums, for the sake of being organized and precise.

Again, I'll repeat myself since you are repeating yourself without any evidence to back them up, Frendh cut off the entire later half of my quote, which changes from the original meaning in the given context. Even I have not been doing this, cutting off sentences to alter their meaning.

@Frendh quoted this...

On 2023-06-02 at 2:30 PM, CosmicHermitCrab said:

From seeing comments you like the current circuit mode due to opinion,

@0_The_F00l when it should be quoted as...

On 2023-06-02 at 2:30 PM, CosmicHermitCrab said:

From seeing comments you like the current circuit mode due to opinion, but seem to completely disregard any potential merit of other's opposing opinion of it for simply being opinions (which is double standard btw).

Both quoted statements clearly have different meanings, and he even responded to the first one as given (in of the regarded context).

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

...are you not reading your own replies??

If it's so obvious that I have misquoted in the past, which you have now claimed but didn't claim in the past for some odd reason, you should be able to back your opinion up without an echo chamber. An opinion without objective supportive reasons might as well be backed mainly by emotional reasons than objective ones. I should be responding "Are you reading?" than you, imo.

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

3 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

2 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

13 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Pot calling the kettle black?

Or do you actually have any relevant objective references to support such an opinion?

oh yes , i have the opinion that your criticism about misquotation and taking things partially from the whole conversation applies to you as well.

Or do you actually have any relevant objective references to support such an opinion?

There's a claim that DE isn't fully reading this thread, so at least reference for them.

Otherwise, it's just an opinion with any merit.

DE may be reading the thread or not, but there are other players reading through it and they can make their own observations. On which opinion has merit.

I doubt most reasonable people even care about this debate, IMO. There have been upvotes for related posts in the past too, if you want to base from quantified data, but that's obviously a small sample size. 

Also, the context of that quote, that you responded to and probably misunderstood, was in response to you not literally referencing anything yet claiming "random" opinions, since you love your own opinions so much. Like I have stated in the past, many times if you have actually read, an opinion without supportive reasons isn't an actual argument, it's just a mere displayed statement.

I was telling you to provide references for DE which you love to lack (which I think is also lazy), not w/e you misunderstood and thus responded with an irrelevant statement.

On 2023-06-01 at 1:20 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

DE may be reading the thread or not, but there are other players reading through it and they can make their own observations. On which opinion has merit.

Then i recommend you stick to only your personal opinions and not speak of behalf of any community as a whole.

Yeah, I highly advise you to do this otherwise you are being a hypocrite. In my opinion, you have been doing this during this entire thread. And if you claim you haven't, well I just referenced a single example of you doing it here. Please don't act like you (only you per se) understand the obvious and everyone else does too when this thread is obviously a cluster mess. That gaslighting tactic isn't going to work on a debate-lord such as myself.

On 2023-06-01 at 1:20 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

And you value data too little or not at all it seems, a random jackass spouting nonsense and others agreeing with them (not necessarily what you have said so far) does not make it any more valid just cause more jackasses keep repeating it. You need to take all opinions with an unbiased view.

You need to take all opinions from an unbiased view and also read more carefully. (I will not support this opinion in the same respect as you not supporting your opinions).

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

4 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Is this another subjective insulting opinion that you are fancy of? Or do you actually have any relevant objective references to support such an opinion? Or is this another irrelevant pop culture reference, my dear comedian?

I have been quoting y'alls quotes in their full sentences with their full overall meanings, and no one complained that I have done misquoting. I expect the very same respect if you want me to constructively respond to y'alls criticisms. No one pointed out that I have been misquoting...

oh yes , i have the opinion that your criticism about misquotation and taking things partially from the whole conversation applies to you as well.

Anyways, to get to your main point, I thought we already had our long debate and you ended it with us simply misunderstanding. Now you want to revisit it? Talk about beating a dead horse...

Before we revisit the previous long debate, that we already had, you first need to provide relevant referenced quotes of your proposed "slander." Otherwise, there's no need to revisit this previous long debate.

Also, I simply only used your own foundational ideals and reasoning against you. That's why it may seem I've been manipulative, which I technically am, but I was using your own manipulation tactics against you. The theme of the major flaw you made was giving more importance to your own opinions above all else.

News flash: In the practical world, mere opinions don't really matter. (I will not support this opinion in the same respect as you not supporting your opinions).

TLDR:

13 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Pot calling the kettle black?

An empty indirect insult without any objective and supportive claims, especially after I literally asked for any regarding claims...

Edited June 3 by CosmicHermitCrab

[0_The_F00l]

11 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I quoted the sentences and statements that I thought were relevant for my given responses, for the given contexts. Otherwise, I would have to make bigger reply posts containing the entire quote multiple times. This is a common procedure for arguing anywhere in the internet forums, for the sake of being organized and precise.

That's just the thing "what you think were relevant" are bits and pieces and not the whole conversation , and please , you have already made big reply posts containing the same quote multiple times . so that excuse is empty . Please also do share the common procedure document for my reference.

11 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Again, I'll repeat myself since you are repeating yourself without any evidence to back them up, Frendh cut off the entire later half of my quote, which changes from the original meaning in the given context. Even I have not been doing this, cutting off sentences to alter their meaning.

@Frendh quoted this...

@0_The_F00l when it should be quoted as...

Both quoted statements clearly have different meanings, and he even responded to the first one as given (in of the regarded context).

Oh you misunderstand , i am not saying Frendh may not have done what you said , i am saying you do this too. I am not defending either of you :D

11 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

If it's so obvious that I have misquoted in the past, which you have now claimed but didn't claim in the past for some odd reason, you should be able to back your opinion up without an echo chamber. An opinion without objective supportive reasons might as well be backed mainly by emotional reasons than objective ones. I should be responding "Are you reading?" than you, imo.

Fair enough , lets see now , here is our conversation , where i have quoted specific parts that are ignored. Keeping it in spoilers to avoid clutter.

Spoiler

Here are the ones that were taken partially trying to bypass the relevant points , i have bolded the ones that were ignored

On 2023-05-30 at 11:38 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

My apologies i did not notice you were on the 5th stage.

My other points still stand , SP is not for casual or new players just as having a maxed out focus tree with top arcanes and amps is not for casual or new players.

You have,started this argument with the emphasis on "oh won't someone please think of the children" which makes your argument flawed and not relevant.

As to the concept of fun , fun is subjective , i enjoy the randomizer , it reduces the fatigue i feel when picking a loadout. Your friend doesn't enjoy it , that's fine i will prioritise my fun over your friends so i will ask him to play something else just as many of my friends don't find operator gameplay fun so your statement does not apply to them as they will not use operator in circuit.

I am perfectly ok if they randomised the focus schools too.

Though ... I have a feeling they might just remove them completely.

 

On 2023-05-30 at 4:17 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

You don't play poker much do you ? It's more than luck , that's why there is the term poker face. You absolutely need to know how to use the cards dealt to you.

The difference is going to be very obvious and self evident.

Sure , but what's basic mods for you ? I would say let's exclude things like hunter munitions , galvanized mods , acolyte mods.

Rubbish , players that invested in multiple gear have it easier than those that have none that does not make them good players , they are simply more privileged. Privilege is a good thing to have.

High MR does not mean that the player has invested in all their gear , they can still be ESO warrior leeches for all i know, with a level and dump mentality , they will have the same problems as others at lower MR if they don't have the actual weapons.

I really don't care about the opinions that players may have on it. It doesn't matter in actual practice.

Limited modding options ? I can get behind , but you will have to mention what that limit would be.

Because if that ever happens , i suspect the mod capacity will be a function of your MR for unowned weapons.

I have this line in the sand about when a player stops being "new" ,

That is when they know what mods to use (at what level) on their weapons to be good enough to clear the star chart without using any forma or potatoes,

After a certain time playing the game , you can "know" what to build to get the most out of a weapon , 

What seperates them from "good" players?

The question becomes less about "what mods to use " and "how many forma to use" to get to the "it will clear anything you throw at it" stage of modding,

This is all still pretty independent of different gear , 

A skilled player , will be able to use all the gear together to make something workable with the limited tools at their disposal.

Where was there competition and on what basis ? It's either going to be psychological or friendly , one doesn't need to have the biggest numbers to win ina  co op game.

A good rogue lite game needs to have a balanced selection and functional variety.

Warframe is not well balanced and the variety is ... Present but not functional , 

There are gear where the difference between categories is pretty large , and even amongst categories of the same type there is further imbalance.

That is why before any other thing happens that difference needs to be reduced with a stat squish.

 

 

On 2023-05-31 at 8:18 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Completely irrelevant to the discussion for multiple reasons ,

Firstly card counting is not applicable to poker as there is no "house",

Secondly card counting is illegal if you use external methods like cameras , electronics and associates , if you use your own head as an individual there is no legal action that can be taken against you.

Stop using strawmen , it does not help your argument.

Ok , still don't know what you mean by basic mods.

Of course there is intelligence involved ,  

You need to pick the combination of weapons and frame that compliment each other suitably.

I still don't know what you mean by basic mods. So i can agree to some customisation but you need to be clear what the limits are.

I have only countered your own statements methodically , nitpicking would be if i only took one sentence and ignored the rest. So you choosing to not address those other points makes you the nitpicker not me.

 

On 2023-05-31 at 11:54 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Yes i criticized it cause it is factually incorrect that there is no skill involved -where you have equated poker to pure luck - using poker is actually a good example for circuit as you can still win with a weak hand if you play them right. You seem to have missed the point i was making, that there is skill involved.

Counting cards by yourself in poker is irrelevant any other card game say blackjack (played in a group) where you can manipulate the odds is where it is relevant. You again missed the point i was making probably because you are equating a specific game (poker) to generic card games. It is like bringing a calculator to an exam , if its a test on chemistry, that calculator may be helpful but wont be considered cheating , but if its calculus it might be frowned upon.

Hope this clarifies what exactly it was that i was trying to argue.

So what i have seen so far ,

Primary:

Always: Serration , split chamber , Vigilante armaments ,

If base crit looks better than status : Point strike and vita sense,

     OR

If Base status looks better than crit  Galvanized aptitude/savvy , dual status mod (can be elemental or IPS)

One Utility: reload speed or magazine capacity or status chance,

Two damage mods : If any IPS element is predominant at base you will get two IPS mods of that element , if no predominant you can get two elemental mods (can be dual status) .

Secondary :

Always three: hornet strike, barrel diffusion , lethal torrent,

If base crit is better then two: pistol gambit and target cracker,

    OR

If Base status is better then two: Galvanized shot , dual status mod,

One utility: Reload speed , magazine or status chance,

Two damage : IPS or elemental (can be dual status) or augur pact ,

Melee:

Always 3 : Pressure point , reach , fury,

Always 2: Truesteel , Organ shatter (maybe i am wrong but i haven't seen CO yet)

One utility: Melee prowess /Killing blow,

Two Damage : IPS or Elemental (can be dual status) ,

One stance as per melee weapon

Frames:

Is pretty much always steel fiber , vitality , redirection , flow , stretch , intensify , streamline and continuity along with energy siphon aura.

So if this list is good enough , what exactly do you want to change , seems like the ability to pick the IPS/ elemental / dual status mods is most relevant. Would they only have default polarities ? then most of the mods wont fit , can you add polarities? then its not just mods.

Then i suggest you are clear so there is no opportunity for your opponents to use your own words against you :P  , but seriously most of my comments are only countering statements you made they are not independent lines of thought not relevant to the topic. You need to have the ability to defend them or accept their inconsistency and flaws.

I have also been very clear about my own statements and provided additional info if there was doubt and accepted flaws when it was pointed out to me , if there is indeed some misunderstanding we can clear it through dialogue , not by ignoring it, most of the things you have ignored actually sheds light on why i have the opinions that i have. You are of course free to ignore them but calling others nitpickers when you are actually doing it feels off putting.

Did i really ignore it?

You speak of skill , and claim poker needs no skill and being completely luck based, I say poker (and circuit though i do not specifically say so ) requires the ability of the player to use what they have.

I have actually answered the question that was asked , maybe if you hadn't ignored the rest of the comments in that post you would have seen it. Let me help you so you don't have to search for it. its a few sentences below what you just quoted.

So there you have it , not ignored , by me atleast :P

The narrow meta is what i also talked about, you really should read what has already been posted. And how Rogue lite is not suitable for warframe unless we get proper balance. And until then the privileged players will have an easier time of it.

My suggestion to this is a stat squish , reduce the difference between what is considered "viable" and "non viable" (i disagree with that labeling but we can use it for now) so the difference between the weapons is still present but not as significant.

As to the opinionated views , everyone is free to their opinions but it remains only that , opinions on both sides of the argument.

 

 

 

On 2023-05-31 at 2:09 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

I actually don't think any polarities are applied to the default loadouts , they just fit the curated mods at max rank (i have seen elemental mods with 14 capacity which is just weird) , Still my original question remains , what will you add or replace in said mod list , as the curated list is not exhaustive but the actual mod list in game is pretty large. And what level of control is expected?

would mod capacity be a concern? (don't forget weapons mod capacity is subject to MR if not ranked manually)

Would all mods be configurable or only select ones?

can you pick low ranked mods from your own pool or it has to be the max rank ones?

Can you shift polarities (if polarities exist)? to better match elemental alignments?

It could be either too much or make things much worse depending on whats possible,

I partially agree to this , they have already done a rework of all weapons in the past once (and unfortunately have gon the opposite direction of raising the floor instead of reducing the ceiling) , So i do not doubt they can do it again if they wanted to.

Assuming you refer to your solution of choosing mods as per your preference? that is ok , but needs to be regulated in some way as modding is most of where the power comes.

Doesnt require impressive amounts of skill , but having game knowledge and Skill will get you further than just limiting yourself to what you are used to and rushing in blindly.

case in point , i had a run where i had my harrow, an ether sword with slash ips a mods a zymos and a trumna, from amongst the selections.

Apparently the Zymos i picked at the time was one i had modded for testing and it only had multishot and damage mods.

I managed to get status spread and status deals double damage decrees in the first round,

And being harrow , i did what he does best , got headshots with guaranteed crits.

And i was deleting things rapidly with just the zymos - which was modded suboptimally - even worse than default loadouts,

So if you know what you are doing you can get far with suboptimal gear.

Clearly we misunderstood each other if that was what you had implied.

It requires a combination of luck , skill and game knowledge to conquer SP circuit easily.

If you lack one or more of the necessary qualities you may still be able to conquer it but with some difficulty and extra effort.

And to counter that i mentioned not everyone has their operator leveled to the max just as not everyone has access to most weapons and frames. You are arguing from a position of privilege that may not be accessible to those whom you are trying to speak on behalf of.

It absolutely requires a significant amount of game knowledge , skill and experience to get to where you are with the operator, or do you believe any player will be able to reach that stage without putting in some time and effort?

You are trying to counter one privilege with another , and that is logically flawed.

you want players to level their operators instead of their weapons and frames? go for it , i dont think DE will have a problem as you are now promoting a kind of playstyle they are happy to encourage anyway - which is to move away from the weapons you are currently using.

They removed trials beause they were a nighhtmare (haha) of bugs and broke with each update and DE would rather do something new than have something old be fixed to work correctly,

Also assuming you mean more experienced players when you say vet , so "vets" dominated a game mode? "vets" dominate all game modes, thats not new and still remains true everywhere you look - the more experience you gain (either directly or indirectly) the more equipped you are to handle things thrown your way.

Casual is not the same as inexperienced and so is not in opposition to "Vets", You need to understand properly what each of these terms implies if we are to discuss further.

I consider myself a casual player , but over the years i have amassed a lot of knowledge , i have traded a lot , i have helped a lot of players , i have decorated our own dojo (and won a prize for it :P) made friends and gotten into various discussions on the forums. Am i also a vet? probably , but i dont spend hours in endurance , or install 20 forma on all my weapons (though i do collect them without deleting them), or try to beat the top k drive score on the various open worlds.

The Term Vet is too vague , i prefer more specific labels that can be more descriptive.

Elite on the other hand i can understand , the kind of player when you pair with you know you are probably going to complete the mission successfully and have gotten the necessary tools for it, So its less about a self appointed title and more of what other perceive you as - which is also subjective.

casual , is the one that just wants some fun which again is subjective.

So i dont really get why you are trying to create this segregation. 

 

On 2023-06-01 at 1:03 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

i showed that there are categories in the default load outs ,

Always available, subject to base stats , utility , and optional damage.

Would players be able to change any slot with any mod (ignore utility and add more elements)? or can you only replace within categories (replace one utility with another , one damage with another )?

Just trying to understand the limit on control you think should be available.

I am perfectly happy to go with what you are suggesting as far as default load outs go , but would like the idea to be fleshed out.

I have already explained why i find your use of operator and new players as justification of what you asked for as flawed , i do not feel i need to explain again.

As to the rogue lite aspect , I would agree if this was a traditional rogue lite game , which it is not. I do not believe the purpose of circuit itself is to make things harder , it is more to encourage players to try other things outside their regularly used gear while giving DE a means to keep players engaged.

SP anything , is the same as the base mission with cranked up numbers. i do not see the reason for making an exception for circuit nodes.

Semantics and nuance are important , i still don't get why you are trying to segregate players on these categories as they are also vague. Different players enjoy different things and what one set likes may be what another set hates and a third that is neutral to it , and they enjoy , dislike or don't care about it for different reasons and not because they are casual or vet or elite players.

I dont bother with what a vocal group has to say , i make my own judgements based on the merit (or lack of) the argument made. If i wanted to be popular i would say whatever gets me the most votes , or likes or whatever the current badge is. That's why you will see me being critical as well as appreciate of different things.

That is an exercise in futility , what DE wants and what they can achieve are two different things. I would like to have the ability to S#&$ gold bricks and pay my bills with it , but reality does not conform to my wishes. DE attempting to make games that are universally liked will never be successful , there will always be those that enjoy it and those that do not.

Sticking to the game , I personally hate eidolons , i didnt look back once i maxed my focus , and it wasnt cause i was casual or elite , i just don't like the game mode for my personal reasons. And i do not think DE should change it just cause i have a personal dislike for it. And despite the various changes and updates made i still dislike them, Cause i dislike the time gating , i hate the bright colours on dark backgrounds that give me potential epilepsy attacks , i dislike the pseudo meta that it created , i dislike that it is filled with so much bloated arcanes based on RNG.

I criticized it for what it is based on my personal reasons , i did not beg on behalf of others.

 

 

On 2023-06-01 at 9:30 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Sure i,i do not think it will alleviate the issue you highlight in your next few comments but I don't see a problem with this.

You are right , that it is your opinion.

I have played public SP circuit most of the time ,and I have not seen that happen very often , i think only twice have i seen someone drop out during weapon selection, and as long as one player is having something good enough the other players usually stay for 5 rounds , and depending on decrees made available , those weapons can punch much higher above their weight but you can also be dead in the water if you make bad selections.

I have failed maybe once when i decided to pick an intentionally bad loadout (solo) to see if it can be made viable over time and was on an envy spiral, So Enemies with toxin + defense + single target weapons on default+ squishy frame + mediocre decree + no allies = dead very frequently + objective not being defended often = fail state reached pretty fast.

Mod selection will not overcome such a scenario , but that is besides the point as i am ok with the limited customization you recommend.

You started this the moment you made the following comments in the OP

There is also no reason to scapegoat "the community" ,"new " or "casual" players. The community is not a hive mind, It is made of individuals all with their own preferences and biases. And the Forums is not even a full spectrum of the entire playerbase. So if you base your scenario on comments made in various reddit or forum posts then it is based on incomplete data in an echo chamber . The only ones having access to the the actual data is DE.

You have your own opinions? Thats fine , i have mine too , but do not assume you speak on behalf of anyone other than yourself,

Too early to claim failure or success, neither you nor i has visibility of what the success or failure criteria is and how far along it has gotten on either side and listening to an echo chamber will not get you closer.

I am also not saying it cannot be improved upon , but asking for things to be hot and cold at the same time is not possible. You cannot appease the section of the community that enjoys challenge while also making it casual friendly, That is the exact reason we had steel path , and it partially met that condition but also failed in its core principle.

I already said this , i will support or criticize things on their own merit , not because others say so.

That was an example (though it is real and not hypothetical),  showcasing not everyone can be made happy , there will always be outliers that will not enjoy it , no matter how hard you try to make it inclusive (which i dont think Eidolons are in the first place) the ones that hate it the most will scream for it the loudest.

So you should make your arguments with your own personal thoughts not based on someone elses loud screams.

I mentioned eidolons as you were quoting an update note for eidolons (long before we had SP).

 

On 2023-06-01 at 10:50 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Common Sense, or a thermometer if you have one.

Also common sense , if you know what was implied.

Please check warframes ESRB ratings. Now let me know if you are actively promoting children (those under 18 years of age) to be playing the game.

*sigh* did you miss the part about separating casuals from new player vets and elites again? you really should work on your knowledge retention skills if you want to be part of long discussions.

The part you are referring to is from here:

It was to bring attention to the fact that the player base you are trying to defend is not in need of that defense from you.

Now that the major points of contention are out of the way lets look at the rest of your statements.

There is already a casual mode for casual players. And children should not be playing the game at all.

Then i recommend you stick to only your personal opinions and not speak of behalf of any community as a whole.

Community is indeed people , both wonderful as well as terrible people. People can be a lot more biased and subjective than statistics and are easily swayed by emotions. Stats remain objective. Are you even aware what Category fallacy means? or are you even sure what i was highlighting when i talked about the stats.

If we are talking of fallacies then the biggest fallacy you are commiting is the fallacy of generalization , with the assumption that the few players you talked to is indicative of the entire community as a whole, if you want to be accurate you need a bigger base to talk to. Whatever info you have is insignificant compared to the information available to DE from their various reports.

Yes , it is not a full indicator either but it is better than subjective hearsay.

You are free to prove me wrong. I just have not seen something that is both challenging and casual at the same time in the same instance.

Please share the other variables possible.

And you value data too little or not at all it seems, a random jackass spouting nonsense and others agreeing with them (not necessarily what you have said so far) does not make it any more valid just cause more jackasses keep repeating it. You need to take all opinions with an unbiased view.

 

On 2023-06-01 at 1:51 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

Did you miss the part about the thermometer? assuming Ambient temperature is X (20 degrees should be fine) anything below that is cold , anything above is hot , you cannot have it above x and below x at the same time. This is common sense , knowledge about certain aspects being true by observation , repeatability and experience, i am feeling weird i have to explain this .

Free to use either of the rating systems , neither allows children.

I never really spoke for anyone other than myself,

It really did sound like you did , but if that was not your intention , then my apologies. Sometimes it is difficult to convert intention to text.

I never claimed i spoke to any base , all my examples were personal ones , nor was i begging on behalf of anyone in particular.

I have no idea where you came up with the assumption that DE has any sort of "casual", "elite" or "non elite" players classification. you will have to quote it for my reference. The Stats that DE shares on their yearly usage stats is a reference for their bigger base of stats available to them.

DE is not the entire community but they are still part of it , they only have more info than you , or me or some random players for that matter. You are asking for things to be made easy for new and casual players as if they all have the same problem, how is that not generalizing?

It is about how opinions backed by statistics is worth more than than just opinions. It was relevant to the topic only to set the context. Not sure how it was a personal insult? apologies if it came out that way.

i guess so ? i have made both arguments and statements , i suppose it would be difficult to identify which is which if you read it without emphasis.

A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven to be true or false through objective evidence. An opinion is a statement that expresses a feeling, an attitude, a value judgment, or a belief. It is a statement that is neither true nor false.

So how will you be able to prove your opinions are correct is the question.

Potentially , yes after all no evidence has been provided by either party to substantiate their claims ,

however i did not make the claims of stating facts (other than the hot and cold one which can be very easily proved) only opinions.

Stats are not enough by and of themselves, of course. But they can be the basis of change or lack of , if you observe that of all the players that do play circuit are "casual" players , and those that play SP circuit are "elite" or "vet" players, would that be enough of a reason of change? probably not.

But if you see that of the "casual" players most dont go beyond stage 1 in SP, and if it is not an expected outcome then change would be more readily made,

If "elite" players are going to stage 69 (haha) in SP on average then there could be a reason for a different kind of change.

It is then time to find the various reason and come up with possible solutions.

Its very interesting that you mentioned absolutism , because i feel that is what you have done as well.

 

On 2023-06-01 at 6:44 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

i am ok to drop or to discuss in a different thread.

Again , no reference to Elite vs casual that i can see.

Only veterans , founders and prime access supporters , and i have already made my stance on veterans in earlier comments.

I know the definition , thats why i accused you of it. As you are asking for changes for "new and casual" players experience when you only have a limited sample group to base your claim on while there is not even a proper definition of what casual would be or new would be.

Yes, you need to prove your opinions if you want to claim they are facts.

If you cannot objectively define casual or challenging then your main topic is moot , as nothing you do can be considered casual friendly in every context. i think you are getting close to what i was trying to explain in the first place.

There is a way to read data that depends on the person articulating as well as syntax and context , not sure if you were being sarcastic or if you were genuinely trying to state the quoted remark as fact.

now lets take a look at your sentence

"Most Warframe players use Wukong Prime" - now lets take a look at the stats,

Wukong prime usage: 9.02%,

Most Players usage : needs to be more than 50%.

At what point does the usage cross 50% amongst top used frames? Wukong ,

Number of players using wukong more than 50% of time: unavailable ,

Conclusion:

Players use 15 frames most of the time (of which 3 are repeated as primes/regular variants) the top of which is Wukong prime.

There is not enough data if the higher wukong number is due to more players using wukong or more game time per player using wukong, so the available data is inconclusive to prove your statement.

If you had just said "Wukong prime is the most used frame" you would have been more accurate.

 

 

 

On 2023-06-01 at 8:45 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

I have been arguing about semantics since quite some time, its probably only now that you noticed it. I already gave my definition, which i assume you ignored. Multiple times i might add, its as if you don't read what has been written. You have even quoted specific comments from the same post in your latest reply.

But i am not making factual claims - i am very clear that i only have my own opinions.

That majority players that are either new or casual needs an easier access to SP circuit.

We are playing warframe , please define within the relevance of this context.

They are flawed when applied to the context of players or missions in warframe , cause what is considered casual by one may be considered challenging by another there is no objective meaning only subjective ones.

Then your reference is flawed, both within and outside the game.

well you at least got half of it right.

Feel free to think as you want. as you keep jumping back and forth between in game and out of game all over the place.

That is why setting context is important , we obviously differ in what we refer to each term as.

We are all only human to make mistakes.

not sure , what would the actual stats and raw data look like? are you saying wukong prime would have 51% instead of 9.02 % or is this a completely new stat?

 

 

On 2023-06-01 at 11:42 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

You don't need to as long as you are clear that we are only arguing about opinions.

I am talking about the purpose of this topic, your very first post.

I keep asking for definitions cause they are subjective , as long as we could define  the context we could agree (or disagree) if whatever you are requesting is suitable or not in my opinion.

Something i have not really gotten yet from you that actually is objective.

You already mentioned that above yourself.

The wrong one of course,

The opposite of a veteran would be a rookie not casual. That should be enough of a hint.

Not if you don't explain what those definitions are so we can actually relate and discuss. It's fine and dandy if you are only having a discussion with yourself. But if you expect to have one with other you need to be clear about what you mean. Which o have to say has gone poorly so far.

Ok ... So ?

 

On 2023-06-02 at 10:24 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Thank you :)

So many things taken out of context  *sigh* 

Very well let's break it down into the 4 specific things i am trying to articulate to make it easier for both of us. These four points are related but can also be argued individually.

1) Definitions:

New players for warframe in my opinion would be those that don't have the mods to make even one full build , like the ones that exist in the default loadouts on circuit. Cause they lack the endo , forma , reactor or catalyst and the actual mods to do so.

Veteran players in warframe are those that have more experience , game mechanics understanding , completed most of the quests , and have multiple loadouts and builds for multiple weapons and frames as per their preference.There is an actual definition of this in the dictionary , and that aligns with my view.

Casual players are ones that don't have any long term goal outside of having fun, in a relaxed form and aren't bothered by what happens outside of their zone. This is not limited to warframe. But can be very subjective and hard to pin down as it can  hange over time.

Elite players are ones you can be assured will carry you through any mission in the game in the most efficient manner. They may have better skill or better gear or both than average.

Hope that elevates some of the confusion. The above need not always be mutually exclusive (but you can't be vet and new at the same time cause they require mutually exclusive qualities).

2) You are asking for the SP circuit be made easier for casual and new players. As per my above definition new players really aren't ready for SP they have the whole rest of the game to go though to collect the resources to make them ready. And casual players will not bother with it if it's not fun in the first place to have randomisation , no matter how many mod config changes you make. This is of course just my opinion i don't claim it as a fact , i am sure there are a few new players and casual players that would be bothered.

3) Everyone is free to have their opinions , but if you want to claim that your opinion is fact then you need to back up your opinions with evidence that is objective and true with no margin of misunderstanding.

4) i like to include humour and pop culture references to keep the discussions relatively light, since clearly you did not get the reference made the humour was lost.

 

As to the 51% wukong usage , i am not sure what you are asking , would majority of players be playing wukong ? Probably , but i do not really know what the actual stats are.

 

On 2023-06-02 at 12:32 PM, 0_The_F00l said:

Nobody is forcing you to use any definition for your own use in your own head, but it you are trying to explain things to a broader audience it is your responsibility to be clear to avoid misunderstanding, that is the purpose of language and semantics,  as different people will construe it differently if everyone has their own meaning.

That is why common understanding is important between both parties to avoid unnecessary arguments.

 

The minimum qualification for most is that it should be more than 50% - the same as a super majority -  so even 60 , 70 ,80 or 99.99% is still most (but not all) and there will always be those that are part of the remainder , which makes up whatever is not most but doesn't have to be least.

But that is not the full picture , as there can usually also be plurality conditions.

Where the largest set is considered.

So if we had a split like 40% , 30% , 30% 40% would be a plurality or simple majority.

The relevance or importance of it depends on the context.

Some procedures allow a simple majority , while some need a super majority to be acknowledged. Other times an opposition combined minority would also be sufficient to invalidate the vote.

This is really subject to the process under question and is beyond the scope of this discussion (happy to discuss in seperate thread) 

i expect the response will be "that was not relevant" .

11 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

I doubt most reasonable people even care about this debate, IMO. There have been upvotes for related posts in the past too, if you want to base from quantified data, but that's obviously a small sample size. 

Also, the context of that quote, that you responded to and probably misunderstood, was in response to you not literally referencing anything yet claiming "random" opinions, since you love your own opinions so much. Like I have stated in the past, many times if you have actually read, an opinion without supportive reasons isn't an actual argument, it's just a mere displayed statement.

I was telling you to provide references for DE which you love to lack (which I think is also lazy), not w/e you misunderstood and thus responded with an irrelevant statement.

I agree , i think most reasonable people will ignore it. And as i have stated previously , i have made both statements and arguments in our conversation , this is not a pure debate and its not just between you and me , this is partially a discussion towards feedback where clarity and context needs to be provided to avoid misunderstandings.

11 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Yeah, I highly advise you to do this otherwise you are being a hypocrite. In my opinion, you have been doing this during this entire thread. And if you claim you haven't, well I just referenced a single example of you doing it here. Please don't act like you (only you per se) understand the obvious and everyone else does too when this thread is obviously a cluster mess. That gaslighting tactic isn't going to work on a debate-lord such as myself.

"debate-lord" ? please avoid the self aggrandizing if you are expected to be taken seriously. As i said already , the ones that read through the conversation can decide for themselves who is gaslighting who and who is the hypocrite.

11 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

You need to take all opinions from an unbiased view and also read more carefully. (I will not support this opinion in the same respect as you not supporting your opinions).

I think you are confusing being unbiased and unopposed.

i can be unbiased , but still oppose your opinions.

11 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

Anyways, to get to your main point, I thought we already had our long debate and you ended it with us simply misunderstanding. Now you want to revisit it? Talk about beating a dead horse...

Before we revisit the previous long debate, that we already had, you first need to provide relevant referenced quotes of your proposed "slander." Otherwise, there's no need to revisit this previous long debate.

Also, I simply only used your own foundational ideals and reasoning against you. That's why it may seem I've been manipulative, which I technically am, but I was using your own manipulation tactics against you. The theme of the major flaw you made was giving more importance to your own opinions above all else.

News flash: In the practical world, mere opinions don't really matter. (I will not support this opinion in the same respect as you not supporting your opinions).

We didn't really conclude , more like let it settle as we were arguing different things due to lack of setting common context and so the argument made no sense.

But this is a completely new discussion.

And yes , mere opinions dont matter , i have been saying that quite frequently.

11 hours ago, CosmicHermitCrab said:

TLDR:

An empty indirect insult without any objective and supportive claims, especially after I literally asked for any regarding claims...

refer above.

Edited June 4 by 0_The_F00l

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I may be wrong, but I don't believe the intent behind the Circuit was purely for challenge/difficulty, so arguments in that context (you can make it easy using this method of Y therefore why do X) isn't as relevant. Variance in gameplay on the other hand, can have several benefits, and limited randomised choices/selections can play into that, because constant runs shouldn't be too homogenous, relatively speaking. Though of course mileage may vary. Like in one sense, an individual may feel like every run where they aren't playing with their favourite Warframe and favourite weapons, "are all the same" regardless and "not fun", but then again, you will have people like me, where 95% of my runs have been interesting, some have been more fun than others, some have been easier, some have been more interesting, some have been similar, some took some clever problem solving... The other 5% were mostly bugs, mostly the other players causing issues (fighting with each other, host migration 20 seconds in, etc). 

I also think its inherently tricky to generalise entire groups too casually. I have been new to Warframe in the past and have friends who have also been new at points. Some of us liked the overwhelming feeling of a bunch of different systems that the game doesn't seem to explain, some of us didn't. Even an individuals experiences and perceptions can change, which is always important to remember. My first experiences with Steel Path were tough. Even though I took my tankiest Warframe, and hardest hitting shotgun. Two weeks later, my modding knowledge and understanding of the game was much better and I could do much better in Steel Path. 3 and bit years later, and I can survive casually with any Warframe, without much effort, make a bunch of mediocre weapons work, yadda yadda. Would I have wanted Steel Path made easier way back? Uh not really, just because thats not really my style. Though not saying that people wanting things to be made easier is inherently bad either, just its not always a People ABC Group vs People XYZ Group argument. People in both groups can change, and so it can be trickier. Like I still remember when I learned Rolling gives DR, and when Thrax incorporeal forms can be hurt and dissipated by Amps/Operators. There are a lot more small tricks and tops that can add up. Some I may still be yet to learn. I see it all the time in the different WF Forums, "You can do what now??". My self from 3 years ago, would probably struggle heavily with SP Circuit. I'd probably avoid it and stick to the normal mode, and just tell myself to be patient. Current me really enjoys it. 

Not that there is anything wrong with people who dislike it as it is, or find it difficult and wish they had an easier time, and so on, just that it can be a bit more complicated than some may think. We can all have different strengths, weaknesses, preferences, time limitations. How thats broken down across the playerbase is where it starts to get a bit tricky. If I had to guess, and again, acknowledge I may be wrong, but I would imagine that the majority is probably neutral to light positive to medium positive, with overall more positivity over it. Not that that would invalidate others individuals own perspectives, or views, if they feel more negatively, just that its also important to not project ones own issues as being how others must/should feel. Like I find very little about Fortnite to be appealing, but I am not out here being like "who the hell enjoys this trash? No one in their right mind would enjoy this", because I can actually understand why many many people would enjoy it. Even if its not for me. 

[Lord_Drod]

There's no way the majority is neutral to light or medium positive.  It's not the difficulty that's the issue.  It's the time, and repetitive boring super old game modes, boring dull empty place, horrible group scaling, awful host migrations, and the time requirement.  Excavation and Defense are missions I never do(except archons and they are both the most complained about missions there), there isn't any reason to do them elsewhere (except Arb Kuva junkie and I can't even bring myself to do that).  The majority of the player base does Night Wave(I pretty much ignore NW and it gets done automatically), Archon, Kahl each week, and now this as well?  Where is the time left over for things that you like doing?  Either you're playing all day to rationalize this, or you are never playing and have been waiting for this.  Neither of those are the majority of players. 

 Why are we accepting a new take on liches that forces you to play in a terrible place and the worst game types in Warframe, where there's nothing at all else to farm besides these bugged weapons?  The lich system was not well received and this system is way worse.  Incarnons are incredibly overrated - they do a lot of damage yeah, but they aren't that useful in regular missions.  The main thing they had going for them was the x20 perk, which none of these have.  They just mostly add AoE to and some stat bonuses to unused fodder weapons.  Is that worth grinding 4+ hrs a week for for months on end?  Absolutely not.

  Outside of an archon boss fight, where the x20 perk doesn't have damage attenuation, and level cap disruption, where would you need an incarnon or enjoy having to charge one up, when there's plenty of capable consistently strong weapons?  There's nothing worthwhile in the circuit.  I have a hard time believing the majority of the player base would look at it in a positive light.

Do I like how DE is trying to trick players into investing tons of time and resources into making useless fodder just for this mode?  No, not really.  Is that really the best thing you can think of to get people to spend money?  It quite frankly has the opposite effect with me.  And if you happened to spend a ton of real money to buy all these weapons, well guess what?  The algorithm is so bad, and you will probably never have them come up, so it's just wasted.  It will still take you hours to forma them up, and there isn't any reason to because of DE builds and decrees.  Not to mention as this OP points out, the operator negates the need to do all that, and in the amount of time you'd spend forma-ing anything up, you could grind up your OP and make an amp in far less time.

The Undercroft is super lazy.  Let's just state facts.  It's not a good tile, its a Zariman port, but in the sky.  They did not have to put too much effort there in making this tile.  It's not a place you want to do "endurance runs".  It's a place you want to get out of as quickly as possible.  You can disagree, but you're wrong.  There's old mission types in here that nobody plays that suck.  Another fact.  Then the forced fodder even when you own 95% of weapons, and a time gate requiring it to be done in a week.  On avg 4 hrs for a very good player, but not elite.  The majority will take longer to do this.  If you have an hour a day to play, why would you spend it here, just so you can upgrade your fodder?  And bugged fodder at that.  So the effort requiring to port excavation, defense, flood, exterm, and survival here, was pretty much zero as well.  Well that's most of the experience isn't it?  The tile, the game modes, and your arsenal.  I guess they spent some time on the cave, which was terribly thought out and horribly executed.  This is all pretty fair to say.  Why would the majority view this in a positive light?  The only positive thing is fast enemy scaling, and decrees (which are only there because its forced fodder mode for your fodder).  Decrees aren't enough to make OG Defense and Excavation enjoyable.

Edited June 4 by Lord_Drod

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

13 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

There's no way the majority is neutral to light or medium positive.

 

Based on?

Like if you want some insight on how I make my guesses. Well lets take Angels of Zariman Update and New War. Forums and Reddit were pretty critical in the first few days after they launched. Over the weeks, the negativity started to be less overwhelming, with pockets of positivity and some more mixed neutral takes appearing. Then started to be balanced between neutral to positive. Well I mean, just to my observations. Thats a lot of data to try to account for, plus many more variables. These Forums and Reddit for example, aren't the entire playerbase. 

A lot of what you mention, is subjective. Can still totally be valid, but depending on who you talk to, may not be an issue at all, or may be a positive. So may not be accurate other than from a very limited individuals subjective take Just saying something is boring isn't really good without context. For example, you know the stuff you really enjoy and find engaging? Well I am going to say thats boring. Am I right? Just because I claimed its boring? Now, to be clear, doesn't mean its not boring either, we are still dealing with two individuals in that example. Taking an accurate assessment of more people, gets trickier and harder. 

With Angels of Zariman update and New War, we did eventually get a few different surveys, and polls, and people were actually in the neutral to light or medium positive. Mostly positive, but the majority where say in the middle of the positive scales/options (as opposed to overwhelmingly positive or neutral) Hence why my guess is thinking Duviri may follow suit. Again, lots of other variables, so I acknowledge I could be wrong. I see a lot of people who think otherwise... and they may be accurate. Many also seem like they don't actually care about acknowledging or understanding opinions or views that differ from their own either. You can sometimes test this, because you can ask them questions like "hypothetically, if the entire player base was actually overwhelmingly positive in this, and we could prove it somehow, what would you think of that?" and the question works in different ways too, for example "hypothetically, if the entire player base was actually overwhelmingly negative on this, and we could prove it somehow, what would you think of that?" I can ask myself both, and in one, I would be less surprised, because it seems to follow general trends of the last few years with fan reaction, and the other would surprise me a little, but still be interesting and worth considering. Some people just aren't as interested in the idea their view isn't the majority or the "right" one by default. 

 

24 minutes ago, Lord_Drod said:

facts

 

How do you personally define a fact? I find most people tend to abuse the word fact and take it for granted and use it way too casually just to try and make something sound more convincing than it actually is. We also know why too, based on a few different studies on how people try to use language and rhetoric to sound more convincing than what their claims actually are. To avoid being one of those people, I try pretty hard to consider how I define and apply terms like fact. 

For example... I like the definition of "an observable or observed truth, demonstrated or demonstrable as true" so even if something has an extremely high likelihood of happening or has a lot of consensus and agreement? Can't be a fact if not observed to be true. Does the Earth rotate around the sun? Yes, and we have a whole lot of ways to demonstrate this and observe this as true. Lots of collaborating evidence, so much so you can actually involve scientific theory and make accurate predictions off the facts. "Its not a good tile", "they did not put much effort in", are facts based on...? So what definition and application of, are you using?