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Why the hell would you add explosive projectives to melee weapons??


(PSN)AbBaNdOn_
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Ack & Brunt incarnum SUCKS!!!  It shoots out little AOE Projectiles if you slide attack or forward block attack or a few other attack variations..   

THe slide attack is the worst though.   You literally are knocking yourself down left and right.   

Adding AoE Projectiles to melee is beyond lazy game design.  Makes them trigger slam radial attacks or generate damage aura's for anything that gets to close.  

But making ONE OF the easiest methods of moving(sliding) between groups of enemies constantly knocking you down was an insanely bad idea.  

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Then don't use the incarnon form? I can understand it sucks if you didn't know what you were getting yourself into and wasted your time (I know I did on the Vasto incarnon), but any melee with range is IMO an infinite improvement over the limited-range stuff.

Edited by Pakaku
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24 minutes ago, Nexecute said:

No one said it didn't, and it doesn't make the design any better.

Except it does. If 99% players use primed sure footed on everything they play, you just dont care about knockbacks as a dev. You go zombie mode, follow standard scheme (explosion = knockback) and move on to the next thing. Besides, if sure footed works for it, its pretty irrelevant.

Edited by MaxTunnerX
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32 minutes ago, Nexecute said:

Let me make the point simple: give me one good reason why the Incarnon melees should self-stagger.

Because all AOE explosions self-stagger and if you want to have explosive projectiles on a melee (which is what I want, innodem was a friggin let down), self-stagger is just logical. Would I be happier if explosions didnt stagger me at all? Yes, but thats not an option here sadly. Devs have shown many times, that they want a hefty price for this, and thats getting and maxing primed sured footed or cautious strike, or getting and using immune warframes.

Edited by MaxTunnerX
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1 hour ago, MaxTunnerX said:
1 hour ago, Nexecute said:

No one said it didn't, and it doesn't make the design any better.

Except it does. If 99% players use primed sure footed on everything they play, you just dont care about knockbacks as a dev. You go zombie mode, follow standard scheme (explosion = knockback) and move on to the next thing. Besides, if sure footed works for it, its pretty irrelevant.

No it doesn't. No one should be forced to use certain mods. I'm using Rush on most builds.

17 minutes ago, MaxTunnerX said:

Yes, but thats not an option here sadly. Devs have shown many times, that they want a hefty price for this, and thats getting and maxing primed sured footed or cautious strike, or getting and using immune warframes.

If it's some one attack (e.g. aerial attack from Exodia contagion) then it's ok to have knockback (not ok to require double/bullet jump). From what OP is saying (I don't have incarnon) it triggers on many attacks. You are basically forced to use "immunity" or not use most of melee.

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35 minutes ago, Nexecute said:

1. Not a good reason. Many of them shouldn't.

2. In what sense?

2. Perhaps we should also stagger from bullet-jumping into walls? Except that would do nothing for balance and just be annoying - kind of my point.

3. How is this relevant?

You asked for my reasons, I gave them to you. You clearly didnt understand half of the post, but that is hardly my problem, not going to go into any further details just for this niche crap. But hear my words, if devs cave in to screamers like you and make melee weapons crappy by removing any projectiles/aoe projectiles from them, I will find you and unplug your friggin router. They want to keep the stagger in game so if you ask for fix, youre basically asking to remove the projectiles. Keep that in mind.

Edited by MaxTunnerX
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18 minutes ago, Nexecute said:

"You asked for my reasons, I gave them to you."

And I isolated and addressed each one. In response, you're now just throwing insults.

"They want to keep the stagger in game so if you ask for fix, youre basically asking to remove the projectiles."

If I asked for the Incarnon melee's self-stagger to be removed, the devs would sooner remove the Incarnon melee's projectiles altogether? All this tells me is that you have a low opinion of the devs.

You didnt "address" the reasons, you reacted to my reasons in a way that clearly showed you didnt even udnerstand them in the first place and jsut completely ignored what I said. And its not my "low opinion" on the devs, its literal and objective experience. Or do you not remember the AOE nerf that was specifically added to force primed sure footed and nerf some weapons' viability to force us to grind different ones? I do, and its not the first time this has happened. If you somehow make the devs remove stagger and keep the projectile, Ill be the first to applaud to you. But thats not going to happen, and whats more, if they do listen to you (which they probably wont), they will remove the projectile altogether.

The only case I heard when the devs listened to a player was when some kind of streamer cried about titania for some reason and he got the vacuum or anti-vacuum augment for her. Thats the only case I know of and I dont really find it positive either.

Edited by MaxTunnerX
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4 hours ago, MaxTunnerX said:

Except it does. If 99% players use primed sure footed on everything they play, you just dont care about knockbacks as a dev. You go zombie mode, follow standard scheme (explosion = knockback) and move on to the next thing. Besides, if sure footed works for it, its pretty irrelevant.

You're acting as if people could go on Simaris rn and buy Primed Surefooted for some standing or sh1t. 

This is a certified Warframe forums moment.

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7 hours ago, (PSN)AbBaNdOn_ said:

Ack & Brunt incarnum SUCKS!!!  It shoots out little AOE Projectiles if you slide attack or forward block attack or a few other attack variations..   

THe slide attack is the worst though.   You literally are knocking yourself down left and right.   

Adding AoE Projectiles to melee is beyond lazy game design.  Makes them trigger slam radial attacks or generate damage aura's for anything that gets to close.  

But making ONE OF the easiest methods of moving(sliding) between groups of enemies constantly knocking you down was an insanely bad idea.  

That sounds really annoying.
in the meantime, if you really love the weapon, you could try using Gauss, or Revenant, or using Unairu's poise passive. (primed sure footed is blasphemy to me i never use it)

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3 hours ago, Nexecute said:

I don't care about any of this; it isn't relevant to my point, simply being that the Incarnon melee self-stagger is bad design.

And guess what, I also dont care about your "bad design" stuff. Only thing I care about is if its good for the player or bad for the player. And its obviously good for the player because AOE explosive melee just kicks ass and with primed sure footed it doesnt even cost you anything in return. Thats why I dont want it to change.

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1 hour ago, Nexecute said:

You did some hours ago:

You can just admit you got the topic confused and move on.

Man youre really trolling hard now. I dont care if its good or bad design, but I think its better design if we have the tools to bypass it. Cant do more simple speech than this.

Edited by MaxTunnerX
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9 hours ago, MaxTunnerX said:

Besides, if sure footed works for it, its pretty irrelevant.

Didn't we literally just have a thread recently with folks complaining that Primed Sure-Footed is locked behind 400 days of logins with no other way to get it, with lots of people responding that "PSF isn't actually that important, nothing requires it" and similar comments?

AoE on ranged weapons is one thing; you can make an argument that it is by design that the ranged weapon should not be exploding in your face. (It's going to happen sometimes, because people walk in front of you, enemies dart out unexpectedly when you're aiming at one further away, etc. But it's not the intended use.)

But I feel like it's not completely out of line to say that self-staggering AoE effects on melee weapons is rather another situation entirely, because I do feel like somewhat by definition and design, melee weapons are generally going to be used within melee range of the wielder the majority of the time. Even if you're adding a ranged attack to a melee weapon, it's still generally as a side effect of a heavy attack or a sliding attack -- which is something you may wish to use as, y'know, a melee heavy attack or a melee slide attack. Because, again, you are dealing with a melee weapon.

(I will make an exception for what this game erroneously calls "glaives" -- those are ranged weapons pretending to be melee weapons.)

And if we're saying that Incarnon Ack & Brunt requires using a knockdown-immune frame or having access to Primed Sure-Footed to use the Incarnon mode effectively... then Primed Sure-Footed being locked behind 400 days of login time maybe kinda is actually an issue after all.

Because I feel like we can't have it both ways. We can't tell folks "oh, it doesn't matter that even if you have already reached the Steel Path and are doing endgame, you must wait over a year to get this mod, because the mod isn't as crucial as people like to make it out to be" but then also say "well everyone has this mod and uses it, so it means that melee weapons self-staggering if used within melee range is irrelevant."

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15 minutes ago, Packetdancer said:

Didn't we literally just have a thread recently with folks complaining that Primed Sure-Footed is locked behind 400 days of logins with no other way to get it, with lots of people responding that "PSF isn't actually that important, nothing requires it" and similar comments?

AoE on ranged weapons is one thing; you can make an argument that it is by design that the ranged weapon should not be exploding in your face. (It's going to happen sometimes, because people walk in front of you, enemies dart out unexpectedly when you're aiming at one further away, etc. But it's not the intended use.)

But I feel like it's not completely out of line to say that self-staggering AoE effects on melee weapons is rather another situation entirely, because I do feel like somewhat by definition and design, melee weapons are generally going to be used within melee range of the wielder the majority of the time. Even if you're adding a ranged attack to a melee weapon, it's still generally as a side effect of a heavy attack or a sliding attack -- which is something you may wish to use as, y'know, a melee heavy attack or a melee slide attack. Because, again, you are dealing with a melee weapon.

(I will make an exception for what this game erroneously calls "glaives" -- those are ranged weapons pretending to be melee weapons.)

And if we're saying that Incarnon Ack & Brunt requires using a knockdown-immune frame or having access to Primed Sure-Footed to use the Incarnon mode effectively... then Primed Sure-Footed being locked behind 400 days of login time maybe kinda is actually an issue after all.

Because I feel like we can't have it both ways. We can't tell folks "oh, it doesn't matter that even if you have already reached the Steel Path and are doing endgame, you must wait over a year to get this mod, because the mod isn't as crucial as people like to make it out to be" but then also say "well everyone has this mod and uses it, so it means that melee weapons self-staggering if used within melee range is irrelevant."

I agree that it doesnt make much real life sense to add explosions to melee weapons and I also agree its a shame the primed sure footed is locked behind the daily. However, we have normal sure footed which is also quite good and easily obtainable and then ofc we are in a game, aka no need to apply real life logic here. If people could use a melee weapon with explosives in real life without getting damaged or even knocked back, they would totally do it. The only reason they dont is because its impossible. In any case, I stand behind what I said. Practically speaking, there is no issue whatsoever with this. Someone has sure footed, someone has rhino or wisp or revenant or whatever. Would the weapon be better off without stagger? Yes. Will devs remove it? No. Stagger is their friggin trademark and they will keep using it until they find something even worse to kill our fun, such as bring self damage back or whatever else.

Also Id appreciate if you didnt quote me on something I didnt even say (the primed sure footed discussion I wasnt even part of). Thanks. What other people say in other topics has nothing to do with what I say in this topic. Cant really say I have to agree or disagree with something because some random guy wrote something elsewhere.

Edited by MaxTunnerX
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6 hours ago, Nexecute said:

So this entire time you actually did agree that Incarnon melee self-stagger is bad design, but thought it would at least be better than whatever hypothetical you had in your head, since there's at least a workaround as is.

Of course you'd rather have a workaround for bad design than not. That is completely redundant.

Its all relative man. The very core design aka melee weapon with explosives and self stagger is bad, but the overall design, that means this badly designed weapon + the workaround added together is not a bad design anymore because it works very nicely. And since it already works well with the workaround weve been presented, I dont see any reason why poke the hornets nest asking for more than this, as it will most likely lead to us getting no explosives on that melee weapon. And Im basing this off hard data where every update we get more stagger, less explosive ammo etc. Thats all Im saying and I hope I finally made it clear.

Edited by MaxTunnerX
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17 hours ago, (XBOX)GearsMatrix301 said:

And just think. When self damage gets reimplemented it’ll just flat out kill you.

No it wont. It will take just part of your hp/shield.

... then enemies take the rest :D

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Personally, I don't mind the Ack Brunt staggers, and it's Incarnon is one of my top favorite melees for the combo pause on Evo 3.

Though the Hate, now that I know the explosion is on light attacks is kinda...

The Hates self stagger should be removed, even though we have prime sure footed, Unairu poise, and easily 20+ ways to mitigate self stagger from various warframe abilities; if anything, only because the explosions are on the identity of melee weapons being the light attacks.

Meanwhile, Ack Brunt I'm okay with as I rarely use the slide attacks. Though I assume that it was made a self-stagger due to the forced status procs, since the throwing axe procs impact/fire/chosen element in an AoE.

The AoE triple proc is actually really handy, but I wouldn't mind trading it for base status chance in exchange for no staggers, or even having its damage scale off base instead of relying on CO.

Though the quickest bandaid I can think of is to either make Cautious Shot available for melee weapons, or introduce a dual stat melee equivalent. ie, 100% Chance to resist Knockdown/self-damage and +20% attack speed or something; maybe even a galvanized mod that gives +25% knockdown resist per stack with a cap of 4.

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15 hours ago, PhiZero said:

Though the quickest bandaid I can think of is to either make Cautious Shot available for melee weapons, or introduce a dual stat melee equivalent. ie, 100% Chance to resist Knockdown/self-damage and +20% attack speed or something; maybe even a galvanized mod that gives +25% knockdown resist per stack with a cap of 4.

Seems like a lot of effort compared to just removing the stagger. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 2023-05-27 at 12:37 AM, quxier said:

 No one should be forced to use certain mods.

^This^

PSF is a bandaid on Hate and A&B. Not to mention its one of the more annoying Primed mods to get. I have thousands of hours oin the game, and a good chunk of that was before the milestones, so Im only now creeping toward 500 (which, I got one of the primed mods beofre you could actually choose the one you wanted and the second one before PSF was even available)

Hate and A&B should not self stagger.

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