Delete defense mission from Duviri Paradox

[ALEXS40]

Defence mission in Duviri Paradox is not easy to complete with lots of high level enemies.also,it's hard to find someone can accompany with you and  help you defend the target,the elite enemies with control imminute can easily destory the defence target,with a failed mission we get nothing from the mission.that's why i strongly suggest delete defence mission from Duviri Paradox.

[Metalgearfox]

 What level defense mission are we talking about? Circuit or duviri experience? Steel path?

[RafMatador22]

Look, I'm a pretty normal player and I never had major problems in this defense mission, except for bugs, but in terms of difficulties I never had major problems, I think I got lucky with the squadrons I joined, and look, I really didn't I like the randomization system.

[Metalgearfox]

2 hours ago, RafMatador22 said:

I really didn't I like the randomization system.

There's always the fall back option of using your melee weapon with melee decrees. After a few waves, you will be status effecting and crowd controlling the entire screen by pressing E.

So, the randomization is really just upside, in that it pushes people to try things they don't usually try and protects people from boring themselves with hyper optimized load outs. 

[RafMatador22]

11 hours ago, Metalgearfox said:

There's always the fall back option of using your melee weapon with melee decrees. After a few waves, you will be status effecting and crowd controlling the entire screen by pressing E.

So, the randomization is really just upside, in that it pushes people to try things they don't usually try and protects people from boring themselves with hyper optimized load outs. 

Well, I don't like to play only with melee weapons, even more so when the game forces me to do that, what I love about this game is precisely combining all the arsenal that I've configured. So no, for me it's not positive.

[TheRoyalBrook]

18 hours ago, Metalgearfox said:

 What level defense mission are we talking about? Circuit or duviri experience? Steel path?

yeah steel path is the only one I ever had issues on, and in that case it was just a matter of "I don't know if I can defend it well with my set up, I should get more decrees before the undercroft"

[Metalgearfox]

On 2023-05-28 at 12:19 AM, RafMatador22 said:

, what I love about this game is precisely combining all the arsenal that I've configured.

There's lots of other content islands for that.

You don't have to like every island.

[RafMatador22]

2 hours ago, Metalgearfox said:

There's lots of other content islands for that.

You don't have to like every island.

The solution to everything: Don't play... meh, I'll pass on your solution, thanks!

[Metalgearfox]

31 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

The solution to everything: Don't play... meh, I'll pass on your solution, thanks!

To be clear, this is like when people ask Blizzard to delete pet battles because they don't play them.

Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean that you get to take it away from other people.

[RafMatador22]

22 minutes ago, Metalgearfox said:

To be clear, this is like when people ask Blizzard to delete pet battles because they don't play them.

Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean that you get to take it away from other people.

I'm not wanting it to be removed but improved. Several older warframe game modes need tweaks too, why is this game mode suddenly perfect and not worthy of criticism?

[Metalgearfox]

5 minutes ago, RafMatador22 said:

I'm not wanting it to be removed but improved. Several older warframe game modes need tweaks too, why is this game mode suddenly perfect and not worthy of criticism?

Removing the randomness from a roguelike is effectively removal of the roguelike.

[RafMatador22]

Just now, Metalgearfox said:

Removing the randomness from a roguelike is effectively removal of the roguelike.

Let me be very realistic with you, this game mode will have the same fate as "Khal" of duty, people will take what they want to take, and they will never step foot there again and go back to the fun content of the standard warframe. But if you like it so much you can keep playing it until the servers are closed.

[FA22_RaptoR]

4 hours ago, RafMatador22 said:

Let me be very realistic with you, this game mode will have the same fate as "Khal" of duty, people will take what they want to take, and they will never step foot there again and go back to the fun content of the standard warframe. But if you like it so much you can keep playing it until the servers are closed.

+1

I can see a few dozen guys on the forums ravenously defending the roguelike style. But Who effing idea was it to jam some random arsed game style into warframe? Warframe LOOOOOVES chasing around these goofy metas and then letting them rot in the corner once they've been used up.

I have seen hundreds of posts in threads about not liking the extreme random aspects of the game.

Now I'm gonna be honest, after a few rounds with a GOOD meta frame and weapons, I was randomly looking at enemy levels like "Ohh, level 1000? doesn't seem like it..." and kept going. I can see how the decree system can make you extremely powerful with a good setup and to be honest I think it would be too easy exactly how it is. However the more often occurrence is an okay or garbage frame (and I have EVERY warframe in the game except Grendel whom I refuse to build his second set of parts out of spite) pretty well min/maxed. But when you get a mediocre frame and junk weapons all the decrees in the game won't help you. Too many things 1-shot you unless you're using cheese methods like shield gating and rolling quard (which is soo *yawn* this game needs an entire rework on survivability and damage scaling)

What's worse is the refusal to change the style of people loading into the game and forcing host migratons and people quitting after 1 round. There are good ideas floating around like "Load people into the match-maker once they go through the portal, the Teshin's cave would be like Cetus or Fortuna, and also let people reset weapons by going in and out". Even if it just reset 1 weapon/frame at a time, it would be better than getting an AOE weapon with no ammo and all junk other weapons. If people can even get a reasonable setup they won't be as likely to quit as they would when they get all junk frames and all junk weapons.

[SpicyDinosaur]

5 hours ago, RafMatador22 said:

Let me be very realistic with you, this game mode will have the same fate as "Khal" of duty, people will take what they want to take, and they will never step foot there again and go back to the fun content of the standard warframe. But if you like it so much you can keep playing it until the servers are closed.

You're missing their point. You are not everyone, you don't speak for everyone. Plenty of people enjoy it, many are just frustrated with game breaking bugs. The people that come to the forums are mostly here to complain and be toxic, anyway, so you are going to hear complaints about everything, regardless of what the average player thinks. (And I can't say what their thoughts on it is.)

 

Also I would find the Kahl missions fun if they would fix the keybindings on the jetpack, but all the complaining on the forums probably made them abandon the mode because they listen to the whinging here way too much

[FA22_RaptoR]

37 minutes ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

You're missing their point. You are not everyone, you don't speak for everyone. Plenty of people enjoy it, many are just frustrated with game breaking bugs. The people that come to the forums are mostly here to complain and be toxic, anyway, so you are going to hear complaints about everything, regardless of what the average player thinks. (And I can't say what their thoughts on it is.)

 

Also I would find the Kahl missions fun if they would fix the keybindings on the jetpack, but all the complaining on the forums probably made them abandon the mode because they listen to the whinging here way too much

I know this wasn't directed at me, but  as for the highlighted text: neither are you.

People are passionate enough to come here and voice their concerns over a style of gameplay that is COMPLETELY different than the game they are used to playing in warframe before. That's not toxic, the only reason you think it's toxic is because the game style is something you personally like. It doesn't make it any more right than Mine or Raf's opionions.

There are tons of Roguelike games out there. There's a reason I'm personally here playing warframe and NOT one of them. This random roguelike gameplay is just haphazardly slapped onto a game that is completely based on Warframe and Weapon types being specialized to the game. That's half the point of playing warframe and mastering weapons. You can try them all out and see if you like a type or not, and you even get a bonus for trying new weapons in Mastery Points. Maybe if most of the weapons were actually on parity i would reconsider. But the way Warframe forces you to mod and buff weapons is completely counter to the entire point of a game where randomness is key.

You're really trying to say that the Stug or Sonicor is really going to be as effective in steel path than the Tenet Arca Plasmor? Don't make me laugh.

If you look at a game like Everspace 2, the weapons in that game all have strengths and weaknesses, but for the most part you can be effective with pretty much any weapon in the game. In warframe not so much, unless you're doing Start Chart.

The point people are trying to make is if you want a randomized game mode to challenge people, you have to give them the benefit of being able to match that challenge, not just having to bail out after a wave because they got trash equipment. That alone is enough evidence the game mode was haphazardly put together and not thought through well enough.

[Auxilar]

Back to the topic at hand.

First of all it was never specified if this is the regular Circuit or the Steel Path Circuit we're talking about, so I'll assume we're talking about the regular one.

Yes the default loadouts you're being handed by the game when going into Circuit are good, but they definitely aren't the meta and you definitely shouldn't expect to get a long successful run every single time. Sometimes you get the combination that allows you to single-handedly run the Circuit, sometimes you get such a crapshoot that you barely manage to get through the first round. Sometimes you get to play with players who actually know their frames, sometimes you get to play with newcomers who are trying their capabilities out... and other times you get a bunch of noodles who fail to realise this isn't Counter Strike and they actually have abilities and double-jumps (even after being forced through the tutorial).

If the default loadout doesn't work, the game does allow you to bring your own loadout if you have the particular weapon or frame in your arsenal... just sayin'

Edited May 30 by Auxilar
Damn typos

[SpicyDinosaur]

5 hours ago, FA22_RaptoR said:

I know this wasn't directed at me, but  as for the highlighted text: neither are you.

People are passionate enough to come here and voice their concerns over a style of gameplay that is COMPLETELY different than the game they are used to playing in warframe before. That's not toxic, the only reason you think it's toxic is because the game style is something you personally like. It doesn't make it any more right than Mine or Raf's opionions.

There are tons of Roguelike games out there. There's a reason I'm personally here playing warframe and NOT one of them. This random roguelike gameplay is just haphazardly slapped onto a game that is completely based on Warframe and Weapon types being specialized to the game. That's half the point of playing warframe and mastering weapons. You can try them all out and see if you like a type or not, and you even get a bonus for trying new weapons in Mastery Points. Maybe if most of the weapons were actually on parity i would reconsider. But the way Warframe forces you to mod and buff weapons is completely counter to the entire point of a game where randomness is key.

You're really trying to say that the Stug or Sonicor is really going to be as effective in steel path than the Tenet Arca Plasmor? Don't make me laugh.

If you look at a game like Everspace 2, the weapons in that game all have strengths and weaknesses, but for the most part you can be effective with pretty much any weapon in the game. In warframe not so much, unless you're doing Start Chart.

The point people are trying to make is if you want a randomized game mode to challenge people, you have to give them the benefit of being able to match that challenge, not just having to bail out after a wave because they got trash equipment. That alone is enough evidence the game mode was haphazardly put together and not thought through well enough.

I need a summary of this to finish it. But if you read my post you'd notice where I said I don't know others thoughts. Next time don't jump the gun so fast?

 

The great thing about this update if you don't like it is divorced from the rest of the game for the most part. You don't need to farm stuff up for another open world (well, most likely, that's the impression they give,) it doesn't require resource from outside it, and you don't honestly need the incarnons or weapons at this point with all the power creep Warframe has.

 

I love roguelike elements and am happy to have them. It's not perfect but I personally enjoy them. Not everyone is going to like newly released content. The best you can do is give it a try and toss it aside if you don't like it. No reason to waste time playing something that isn't fun for you! Play the rest of Warframe, or go to a different game until the next update.

[FA22_RaptoR]

2 hours ago, SpicyDinosaur said:

I need a summary of this to finish it. But if you read my post you'd notice where I said I don't know others thoughts. Next time don't jump the gun so fast?

 

The great thing about this update if you don't like it is divorced from the rest of the game for the most part. You don't need to farm stuff up for another open world (well, most likely, that's the impression they give,) it doesn't require resource from outside it, and you don't honestly need the incarnons or weapons at this point with all the power creep Warframe has.

 

I love roguelike elements and am happy to have them. It's not perfect but I personally enjoy them. Not everyone is going to like newly released content. The best you can do is give it a try and toss it aside if you don't like it. No reason to waste time playing something that isn't fun for you! Play the rest of Warframe, or go to a different game until the next update.

Wait what? So just f*** off to me then? Why do you get to have fun with new arcane adapters and content and I get to... go do something else? How about F*** no!

I started playing warframe because it was different and unique. I'm not gonna sit on my butt and watch some poorly implemented fad turn a TON of players off.

Unless you're totally tone deaf, there are an absolute TON of replies in these feedback threads about people not liking the random nature. Part of the problem is the lack of parity between weapons, but that's not going to change EVER as DE has literally hundreds of weapons to go through. If they are going to throw random builds into the mix, they need to be able to keep up with steel path enemies. You ever try to kill a lancer in SP Circuit with a default build Viper and no arcanes on it? (And no warframe buffs) Do that and get back to me with "This is fun!". Heck, even try it if you get a bunch of good decrees. I don't care who you are, you get a bunch of junk random weapons and a bad warframe selection, it's a bad time. Like "I hope I don't get defense first wave or I'm toast" bad time.

If DE wants to put randomizers in for weapon loadouts, they need to have FULL access to all the mods and arcanes for people to use. They also need to stop LOCKING people into terrible loadouts. Locking a loadout to punish people or prevent them from bailing is not going to encourage players to play. There are GOOD solutions to fix it without destroying the random nature altogether.

Warframe isn't exactly in a good spot right now. If you look back 5 years and see the peak and average concurrent users.... It's going down. The last time we had a peak like this was in Nov. 2021, but this peak is already crashing hard. They are HOPING to trade older "daily/weekly" players for new users, but as I've said in another discussion, if a new user comes in and like the random nature of curcuit, they're gonna be pissed when NONE of the rest of the game is like that. And any players that like the warframe plays, probably aren't gonna get excited by an oddly placed random mode. This was NOT developed enough to be a sustainable game style, which is why the numbers keep dropping.

[Tenno_Cobra]

I'd say, do it !!!

Think most people are kinda sick of Defense anyway, it's by far the longest of the missions, and it's also the only one with an annoying fail state that wipes hours of progression. There's already annoying Defense node all over Steel Path starchart making it super hard for new players to clear it now that it's deserted... So yeah, removing them from Duviri would be a step in the right direction.

Plus you can't really choose your arsenal to have builds and weapon combos to be able to correctly crowd control enemies every round.

Every single run i've failed was because of defense, every single time my teammates leave it's because we get to like the 3rd defense wave and they fear losing all their progession when a bunch of lvl 9999 goons turn the pod into swiss cheese in 35 seconds if not crowd-controlled.

Plus I swear it's like every ... single ... duviri experience run has a defense bounty....

I mean we have stuff like Void Cascade , yet you guys chose standing in a spot for five waves as the most recurring Duviri Experience undercroft mission...

Edited May 31 by Tenno_Cobra

[CosmicHermitCrab]

We have 5 sub-game modes atm, what's wrong with losing one more?

[JHarlequin]

 Several aspects of duviri just seem like they miss the mark.  Regular experience and regular circuit don't really teach warframe because it is the duviri unique operator gameplay, and includes decrees that completely overpower content before difficulty sets in.

 The steel path modes are similarly inadequate because in experience, you just take decrees until you are overpowered, or for circuit you just take whatever works and quit out before you get defense if you don't have a good enough loadout.  Mostly because the missions in circuit are difficult to fail.

 Exterminate has no fail state other than losing your last life.

Extraction is the same.

Flood also has no fail state, but you do have to be able to kill high level enemies if you take too long so it gets tougher.

Survival does require you to get some oxygen drops so it's definitely going to depend on you making some kills.

Defense though among the other modes has a fail state.  The pod can be damaged and can't really be protected in most situations.  It is so very easy for the pod to get destroyed.

 Which leads to how some of the solutions aren't universal.  "Stick to melee and decrees."  Well if you don't have the right decrees, then you still don't have the damage and you can't melee all enemies on all sides of the pod fast enough in some situations.   Besides, guns and other decrees work just as well.  You can have overpowering gun damage in about four or five decree choices, just like melee.

 When defense is so different from the other stages, it shows that there is a real disparity between the stage objectives.  When the decrees can so rapidly make the equipment unnecessary and the content trivial, then it really isn't a representation of the game.

 Defense probably shouldn't be removed, but the undercroft levels, and most of duviri needs a rework because it isn't warframe, it's put up with gear you don't have a choice about and hope you get the decrees to make it work.

[InfiniteNothingness]

On 2023-06-04 at 8:15 PM, JHarlequin said:

 Several aspects of duviri just seem like they miss the mark.  Regular experience and regular circuit don't really teach warframe because it is the duviri unique operator gameplay, and includes decrees that completely overpower content before difficulty sets in.

 The steel path modes are similarly inadequate because in experience, you just take decrees until you are overpowered, or for circuit you just take whatever works and quit out before you get defense if you don't have a good enough loadout.  Mostly because the missions in circuit are difficult to fail.

 Exterminate has no fail state other than losing your last life.

Extraction is the same.

Flood also has no fail state, but you do have to be able to kill high level enemies if you take too long so it gets tougher.

Survival does require you to get some oxygen drops so it's definitely going to depend on you making some kills.

Defense though among the other modes has a fail state.  The pod can be damaged and can't really be protected in most situations.  It is so very easy for the pod to get destroyed.

 Which leads to how some of the solutions aren't universal.  "Stick to melee and decrees."  Well if you don't have the right decrees, then you still don't have the damage and you can't melee all enemies on all sides of the pod fast enough in some situations.   Besides, guns and other decrees work just as well.  You can have overpowering gun damage in about four or five decree choices, just like melee.

 When defense is so different from the other stages, it shows that there is a real disparity between the stage objectives.  When the decrees can so rapidly make the equipment unnecessary and the content trivial, then it really isn't a representation of the game.

 Defense probably shouldn't be removed, but the undercroft levels, and most of duviri needs a rework because it isn't warframe, it's put up with gear you don't have a choice about and hope you get the decrees to make it work.

Actually Exterminate and Excavation do. If you go 15 minutes without killing a single enemy or having an active extractor, the mission fails. The only Circuit type that doesn't is Void Flood because the Corruption gauge from the Zariman Void Flood doesn't exist so there's no fail state.

[Qriist]

On 2023-06-10 at 6:25 AM, InfiniteNothingness said:

Actually Exterminate and Excavation do. If you go 15 minutes without killing a single enemy or having an active extractor, the mission fails.

I wouldn't really consider these "natural" fail states, though.

[RafMatador22]

On 5/29/2023 at 9:15 PM, SpicyDinosaur said:

You're missing their point. You are not everyone, you don't speak for everyone. Plenty of people enjoy it, many are just frustrated with game breaking bugs. The people that come to the forums are mostly here to complain and be toxic, anyway, so you are going to hear complaints about everything, regardless of what the average player thinks. (And I can't say what their thoughts on it is.)

 

Also I would find the Kahl missions fun if they would fix the keybindings on the jetpack, but all the complaining on the forums probably made them abandon the mode because they listen to the whinging here way too much

Khal quests weren't abandoned because of people's complaints, but simply because it's not good. Believe me I gave this a chance, I would like this slow gameplay if it was even polished, and with better animations I would play it daily, but it's just not worth trading the smooth and fast gameplay I have in real warframe content, they they can keep releasing this type of content, but it will always be abandoned after 1 month or two, that's sad for me, because they could polish the diamond they have in the real warframe.

[RafMatador22]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:17 PM, FA22_RaptoR said:

except Grendel whom I refuse to build his second set of parts out of spite) pretty well min/maxed. 

Just a curiosity, I like the warframe style of gameplay so much, that I did the painful grendel mission twice, while the kahl missions I haven't played in almost 1 year lol.