Something should be done about Mesa's Peacemaker

[bl1te]

TL;DR: It is just stupidly lazy ability that allows to not face almost any challenge the game gives a player. And this is bad.

EDIT: To avoid misunderstanding with some people, I meant not that Mesa cheeses the content like Steel Path, etc., but provides me with a lazy and passive gameplay. I'm doing little effort to go through the challenge. Like, I press 4 and am able to play with one hand, only rolling from Nullificators from time to time or recast 3rd. Although other frames and weapons require me to play kinda actively.

EDIT 2: The topic is not about Peacemaker's strength, but the gameplay it provides.

While I like that there is a way to "skip" the content which appears hard or tedious (for me), still it tempts me to almost immediately use it whenever there is any sign of tediousness. Thus, it bars me off the potential challenge (within adequacy) which was intended by DE.

Yesterday I have completed the True Master rank test with Mesa, but I didn't feel at all that I am "The True Master". I used Mesa because it is the easiest laziest and fastest way to go through most of the content. I didn't want to figure out what is the challenge in that MR test, because I could just "skip" it and return to the content I actually like, in a quicklier way.

I totally understand that it is my own deal, that I myself make a choice to equip Mesa, but... Let's be honest, this game is about grind, and the grind is sometimes time-gated frustrating. Thus, people would prefer to choose the fastest effortless ways to grind if there is such option.

I feel like either players should be "soft-restricted" from cheesing passive gameplay with Mesa (remember Ember rework?) or the grind itself should be softened.

I want to play other frames, try different equipment, and find out which works best in one case or another. But when there is Mesa with her 95% damage reduction and "press 1 button to kill everything", other approaches appear so inefficient strenuous.

I would like it if DE rework her Peacemaker ability. And maybe Shatter Shield too.

Edited May 30, 2023 by bl1te
See EDIT and crossed out words

[Merrcenary]

just because you refuse to try other frames doesn't mean mesa needs to be nerfed lol

[chaotea]

Honestly, i used to love mesa ages ago, and do still love her, but when you get to higher level content shes abit mid. Steel path and stuff shes not as strong as say Hildryn or Xaku, who litterally just walk through the level and stuff dies.

[SpicyDinosaur]

I'll never understand complaining about a warframe being too powerful and something like the end of the regular star chart. I hate Mesa, but she's honestly not overpowered. I just hate the core of her gameplay.

 

There are more powerful warframes out there.

[Artekkor]

While i do love nerfing stuff - i see no particular reason to nerf Mesa of all things at the moment. Her ultimate consumes bazillion energy, DPS falls off at late game (she didn't help me cheese Steel Path, that's for sure) and overall i just don't see her around anymore. Don't remember last time i heard her guns firing.

I understand that she's kinda brainless, but... She's not that big a deal at the moment. I wouldn't mind a rework of her ult though.

[Pizzarugi]

I don't mind if OP powers only affects you.

I main Revenant. Mesmer Skin makes me god mode. I'm trivializing the game only for myself since I refuse to use the new augment out of principle (that and I'm not going to contribute to one of the reasons DE will likely, inevitably nerf him). Danse Macabre? I Helminth'd that out for something more useful for myself and the team (Roar, Dispensary, or Expedite Suffering if maining my bleed melee build).

The problem I have with the likes of Mesa's Peacemakers is that it affects everyone in the team whether they wanted it or not. Someone going around mindlessly spamming 4 and wiping out entire rooms reduces the game to a walking simulator for everyone else. It's also one of the biggest encouraging factors for leeching, because why bother doing anything when one player can do everything for you.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 28 minutes, Merrcenary a dit :

just because you refuse to try other frames doesn't mean mesa needs to be nerfed lol

If the frame is good enough to make some other options obsolete, yes it need to be nerfed and it's not about player preference.
 

[Numerounius]

It has almost zero mobility in a game where movement is one of its strongest points. While you are sitting in spawn I am over 200 meters away blowing stuff up with my kuva bramma.

It really shines in the more arena-styled modes like the MR30 test and the circuit but for regular gamemodes eh it is very dependent.

[bl1te]

Guys, thank you for the replies and opinions. Please see my edit of the original post. My poor wording took place a little.

[Stormandreas]

Go use Mesa at level cap or in endurance runs, or on Eidos, and come back to me.

Peacemaker, while good, is not an instant win button by any means.

Steel path isn't really all that challenging in the first place, it's just spongier enemies really. If you want a challenge you have to seek it, so, endurance, level cap, Eidolons, speed running etc.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Stormandreas

[Chewarette]

38 minutes ago, lukinu_u said:

If the frame is good enough to make some other options obsolete, yes it need to be nerfed and it's not about player preference.

Yeah, let's nerf all the Warframes then. Until we're all walking HP sticks with no ability, but then all Warframes would make Nidus obsolete ? So let's remove all warframes and keep only one

Mesa is perfect as she is. Strong against level 50s ? What an affair, even an unmodded Grendel with a Lato will destroy them in two hits.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Chewarette

[AegidiusF]

I almost never play Mesa and the reason is very simple : she is not funny to me. Fun is the most important thing in a game and it should be the main reason why some people will play Mesa a lot (she is funny to them) and others won't.

It's true that I started playing Mesa a bit more since Duviri as (I don't know why) the Cave proposes her very often, but it's only to avoid RNG weapons (I try to always pick warframes with exalted weapons).

Shatter Shield modded DR is nice and many other frames have the same DR from abilities, but it has a major issue : only protects from projectiles. Not OP, but nice to give a layer of DR (and will be useless if not combined with other DR).

Peacemakers are nice, but they are not really OP, and put Mesa in danger by limiting her movement (even with the augment).

To be honest, I'm sorry to say this, but what you said is like asking to nerf Banshee's Resonating Quake because it can make you easily complete every single node on the normal Starchart.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by (NSW)AegisFifi

[Famecans]

You have two options:

1.  Love Mesa and remove mods from the pacemaker build.
2.  Hate Mesa and choose another frame to increase the challenge.

Good luck!

Edited May 30, 2023 by Famecans

[lukinu_u]

il y a 13 minutes, Chewarette a dit :

Yeah, let's nerf all the Warframes then. Until we're all walking HP sticks with no ability, but then all Warframes would make Nidus obsolete ? So let's remove all warframes and keep only one

Mesa is perfect as she is. Strong against level 50s ? What an affair, even an unmodded Grendel with a Lato will destroy them in two hits.

Mesa ult just don't need you to play. I get that each warframe have their own pros and cons and they need to stay like that, but Mesa is just the "I don't want to play" option, despite being a very interesting concept.

The changes I would do are :

• Remove max range (currently 50m).
   
• Add linear damage falloff of x damage/m based on distance from the aiming location. To make it clear, imagine you are the center of a circle where the enemy you hit is on its radius, the damage reduction is the distance between the enemy and where you aimed at on this circle. This mean the further enemies are, the more accurate you need to be to get higher damage up to a point where you simply don't damage it anymore at extreme distance.
  This mimic the old max range but can be countered by good aim and encourage doing so for maximum effeciency, which gives a higher skill cap and incentives active gameplay.
  Just in case it wasn't clear, here is a visual represenation : You are the blue dot, red dots are 2 enemies and the white line is where you are aiming at. Both enemies are at the same angle relative to your camera BUT if you look at the distance between aiming line and the target (blue line), the line is longer on the enemy further away.
   
• To compensate the new damage falloff, increase damage.
   
• If no enemies are detected or aiming directly at it, shoot where you're aiming like a normal weapon do.
  This allow headshots if aiming properly and adress the poor auto-targeting that can't shoot at enemy if their center of mass is not visible, despite showing their head and/or feet.

These changes are nerf to certains areas and buff to other but overall, it make mindless spam less efficient while rewarding player for their accuracy, which really fits a cowboy Warframe.

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

hace 2 horas, bl1te dijo:

I want to play other frames, try different equipment, and find out which works best in one case or another. But when there is Mesa with her 95% damage reduction and "press 1 button to kill everything", other approaches appear so inefficient strenuous.

Play The Circuit. Yes, the mode a lot of people hates. Since you are like "I want to try other things but I don't feel like it", play the mode that forces you to pick different things.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

In order to cheese with mesa you need some proper moding and some effort. 

Like grendel now is lazy facetank and up to certain lvl just activate gloom and have 5 enemies in gut and have nourish buff active = passive healing of dmging enemies in gut, + viral pulse from getting hit, and you doing dmg. + each time casting nourish to get hp back.

But on unserious note i would like frames getting grendel treatment( if its not fun to eat 40 enemies) then other frames also should not be able to utilize their op tileset clearing abilities and it should get limited 5. Like mesa can auto aim 5 enemies and energy automaticly go down to 0, vauban only affect 5 enemies, saryn spore only affect  5 enemies at max, and octavia only draw attention of 5 enemies, and so on

   Of course im not serious about those suggestions but then again you have same option to pick mesa to join the tileset autoaimkill, or just play yourstyle and sadly to get most joy more often than not solo, since its one of the ways to enjoy own loadout options to fullest .

With half minded effort you can cheese game with stug. Now it should get nerfed ? or need to compliment ability to use game mechanics to make it work.

[bl1te]

32 минуты назад, (PSN)Pablogamer585 сказал:

Play The Circuit. Yes, the mode a lot of people hates. Since you are like "I want to try other things but I don't feel like it", play the mode that forces you to pick different things.

What do I do when I collect every single reward from that mode?

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

Justo ahora, bl1te dijo:

What do I do when I collect every single reward from that mode?

It's not about what the rewards you'll obtain from playing the mode. You should play the Circuit to force yourself to play different things, not to simply look after rewards.

Quoting yourself: "I want to play other frames, try different equipment, and find out which works best in one case or another."

So force yourself out of that "comfort zone" that is Mesa, give other things a try. Maybe it's not better, but at least you'll have tried it and have a more grounded opinion on it.

[KitMeHarder]

3 hours ago, bl1te said:

I totally understand that it is my own deal, that I myself make a choice to equip Mesa

Then how about we reduce Peacemaker's range down to 10m, but only for your account. Then you'll have to be active!

Seriously, I am tired of lazy-ass players trying to nerf gear that is plenty engaging and active when I use it.

[lukinu_u]

il y a une heure, AntifreezeUnder0 a dit :

In order to cheese with mesa you need some proper moding and some effort. 

Remove the word "effort" and it might be true.

[Chewarette]

1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

Mesa ult just don't need you to play. I get that each warframe have their own pros and cons and they need to stay like that, but Mesa is just the "I don't want to play" option, despite being a very interesting concept.

That's weird. So you hit 4 and you win ? Nothing else to do ? If you tell me you have to click and move your mouse - congratulations, then all Warframes are Mesa, requiring to move the mouse & click to win (Edit: oh wait, some Warframes don't even need to move the mouse to win !).

You have to play with Mesa. She's frail, so you have to move, which your 4 doesn't allow for unless you use the quick-and-short-bursts while bullet jumping, which require a lot more gameplay than all Inaros, Xaku & Khora players until the dawn of eternity combined. Peacemaker also doesn't go through walls, so that's another limitation you have to play around, unlike several frames which can just go yolo wherever they are and their spells will kill enemies that didn't even see them yet.

By nature, her Peacemaker makes you have to plan efficiently. Position yourself to not get rekt, to be sure you won't be assaulted in half a second, and also to have the widest range as possible to make use of it efficiently.

Honestly the only thing that I've ever found weird with Mesa is that her Peacemaker seems to work in reverse. It would make more sense that the first seconds have the smallest reticle, then it grows the more target you kills, rewarding longer Peacemakers than shorter bursts. It could even be transformed the same as Ember's 2 : killing enemies increases the reticle's size, but increases energy consumption as well as a drawback.

But saying Mesa doesn't need you to play ? That's plain wrong. Do that in Circuit and you'll be the most useless Mesa ever, as I did encounter last week when I did more kill with my Azima Trinity.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Chewarette

[BiancaRoughfin]

25 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

You have to play with Mesa. She's frail, so you have to move, which your 4 doesn't allow for unless you use the quick-and-short-bursts while bullet jumping, which require a lot more gameplay than all Inaros, Xaku & Khora players until the dawn of eternity combined.

Apparently you dont play Mesa enough your self to call her "Frail" as her 3rd ability reduces damage taken in 90% from All sources and it stacks over Armor and Adaptation.

Also, why would you need to move when you can mow down entire rooms of enemies in a quick burst? She can however move with her Waltz Augment wile her 4th is active.

[lukinu_u]

il y a 1 minute, Chewarette a dit :

That's weird. So you hit 4 and you win ? Nothing else to do ? If you tell me you have to click and move your mouse - congratulations, then all Warframes are Mesa, requiring to move the mouse & click to win.

In comparisons to aiming at enemies to kill them, yes putting them inside a circle that is half your screen is not playing.

 

il y a 2 minutes, Chewarette a dit :

You have to play with Mesa. She's frail, so you have to move, which your 4 doesn't allow for unless you use the quick-and-short-bursts while bullet jumping, which require a lot more gameplay than all Inaros, Xaku & Khora players until the dawn of eternity combined. Peacemaker also doesn't go through walls, so that's another limitation you have to play around, unlike several frames which can just go yolo wherever they are.

She have 2 defensive power, one that prevent enemies from shooting and one that divide damage by 5 to 20 depending on midding. How is she frail ?

 

il y a 15 minutes, Chewarette a dit :

By nature, her Peacemaker makes you have to plan efficiently. Position yourself to not get rekt, to be sure you won't be assaulted in half a second, and also to have the widest range as possible to make use of it efficiently.

You can use it in air, which completely negate that. You simply have to bullet jump > peacemaker > kill everyone while in air > repeat.
 

il y a 16 minutes, Chewarette a dit :

Honestly the only thing that I've ever found weird with Mesa is that her Peacemaker seems to work in reverse. It would make more sense that the first seconds have the smallest reticle, then it grows the more target you kills, rewarding longer Peacemakers than shorter bursts. It could even be transformed the same as Ember's 2 : killing enemies increases the reticle's size, but increases energy consumption as well as a drawback.

The goal is to prevent people from using it for too long, which make it a short burst of damage instead of being a turret mode you keep for the whole mission.
Before prior nerfs, this reticle shrinking wasn't a thing and it people were just keeping the ability active for hour in long defense/survival.

 

il y a 19 minutes, Chewarette a dit :

But saying Mesa doesn't need you to play ? That's plain wrong. Do that in Circuit and you'll be the most useless Mesa ever, as I did encounter last week when I did more kill with my Azima Trinity.

Saying you don't need to play surely is an exaggeration, but it require a lot less effort to play efficiently than most of the content and it just make it a brain dead choice. I never play Mesa and I don't even have a good build for her, but when she drop in Circuit this the go to choice and I just cheese the whole week in a single mission without even looking at the screen, it's ridiculous.

My issue when I say she doesn't need you to play is the way being better will not affect the outcome.
With almost any warframe powers work in tandem with weapons and a good loadout choice, movement, etc... will always affect the outcome but with Mesa, you just bullet jump in the skin, peacemaker, click while shaking your camera and everything is dead even if you didn't look at the screen.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Mesa is the only problem and every strong AoE nuke frames suffer from this problem, but Mesa is often the most popular because her whole kit rely on auto-aim while not moving, which is literally "not playing for a few seconds" and it have to be strong to some degree to actually be viable, so it's really the 0 effort choice and is popular for that.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, lukinu_u said:

3 hours ago, Merrcenary said:

just because you refuse to try other frames doesn't mean mesa needs to be nerfed lol

If the frame is good enough to make some other options obsolete, yes it need to be nerfed and it's not about player preference.

Maybe we should ask ourselves why people use such frame or weapons? When you have to do long missions (e.g. survi), you don't see enemies but you have to kill them (e.g. Cetus bounty) or you have to kill quickly then you use such methods.

1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

2 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Yeah, let's nerf all the Warframes then. Until we're all walking HP sticks with no ability, but then all Warframes would make Nidus obsolete ? So let's remove all warframes and keep only one

Mesa is perfect as she is. Strong against level 50s ? What an affair, even an unmodded Grendel with a Lato will destroy them in two hits.

Mesa ult just don't need you to play. I get that each warframe have their own pros and cons and they need to stay like that, but Mesa is just the "I don't want to play" option, despite being a very interesting concept.

Lots of options are like this: chaining or AoE weapons, melees with insane speed, other frames with afk-like style (e.g. Xaku).

1 hour ago, lukinu_u said:

•  

These changes are nerf to certains areas and buff to other but overall, it make mindless spam less efficient while rewarding player for their accuracy, which really fits a cowboy Warframe.

You know why I was using mesa? Because I had to kill enemies THAT I CANNOT SEE. Thanks a lot ;)

 

[lukinu_u]

il y a 12 minutes, quxier a dit :

Maybe we should ask ourselves why people use such frame or weapons? When you have to do long missions (e.g. survi), you don't see enemies but you have to kill them (e.g. Cetus bounty) or you have to kill quickly then you use such methods.

Lots of options are like this: chaining or AoE weapons, melees with insane speed, other frames with afk-like style (e.g. Xaku).

You know why I was using mesa? Because I had to kill enemies THAT I CANNOT SEE. Thanks a lot ;)

So basically, you're saying you play Mesa because... it's a good way killing enemies you couldn't see.
I think it highlight something wrong, I'll let you think about it.