Please remove thrax legates from the spawn pool

[FrigidMesa]

Thrax legates are one of the most annoying enemies added to the game. Their implementation back in the Zariman update was fine due to their use a mostly a mini boss. but having them as a common enemies is too much. The attack where they become intangible and hit you with superpower magnetic beams being thrown at the player every few seconds is downright obnoxious not to mention it's bugging out and completely killing the run because the legate doesn't respawn after using it bricking defense or flood missions. Either rework the unit to not deal guaranteed magnetic and not become intangible or leave them only on the Zariman.

[ant99999]

A better corse of action would be to rework them into an actually competent enemy design. But I suppose that's too much to ask for.

So, more unblockable undodgeable instant proccing magnetic beams for you, which you resort to avoiding by aim gliding over the thrax's head.

[Qriist]

On 2023-06-03 at 1:58 PM, FrigidMesa said:

Either rework the unit to not deal guaranteed magnetic and not become intangible or leave them only on the Zariman.

Pop into operator void form when they telegraph their magnetic attack.

[sunderthefirmament]

1 hour ago, Qriist said:

Pop into operator void form when they telegraph their magnetic attack.

Not worth it. You can still get magnetized if they hit your frame. Yeah, you can attempt to kill the ghosts with an amp, but there’s no point. It’s too risky and doesn’t really speed anything up.

 

The ghost beam attack needs to go. DE already disabled the melee thrax’s special invincible floating scythe attack (the Zariman melee thrax have this attack while the Circuit melee thrax do not). They should do the same for the ranged equivalent.  Enemies that spawn this frequently should not have “wait it out” attacks.  They’re barely tolerable on bosses.

[Qriist]

1 minute ago, sunderthefirmament said:

The ghost beam attack needs to go.

Use different frames or tactics.

Thrax rarely give me any trouble in the circuit.

This really seems like a you problem.

[sunderthefirmament]

4 minutes ago, Qriist said:

Use different frames or tactics.

Thrax rarely give me any trouble in the circuit.

This really seems like a you problem.

There’s no need to be accusatory. I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve been downed in SP Circuit, and they were all during week 1. 
 

My issue with the attack isn’t the damage. Nor is it the magnetic proc. It’s twofold: the waiting and the glitchiness.  I think enemy attacks that basically boil down to “please wait” are bad game design. It’s one thing when a boss or mini boss uses them.  The counterplay is easy: jump and aim glide. Done.   But when the enemy using this attack spawns numerous times every wave, it gets old fast. As for the glitchiness… Thrax can still softlock the Circuit. They can still glitch out and leave permanent damaging beam objects. I had one do that to the defense objective one time. Thank goodness I was Frost. 

[Blackstrength]

I think the main issue is that the beams are homing really fast on the player.

So fast that even if you bullet jump above or acrossbthe Thrax, it can still do a 180° and hit you before you land most of the time.

Operator void mode is a last-minute passive defense move that should not be the expected response to a common attack pattern... Or fights will become boring.

At least in this game mode, these beams should go in straight lines. They will still cover large area and be a threat... But a dodgeable threat. (It should not damage mission objectives both because of bugs and because objectives can't dodge >.>)

There should also be a way to force them out of their invulnerable state : like void bubbles to pop for example, similar to the Void-corrupted creatures of Duviri. Which would make them vulnerable but not interupt their beams : you would need to dodge and shoot at the same time.

Edited June 5 by Blackstrength

[Wolfwaffe]

18 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

The ghost beam attack needs to go.

Hate to say it, but...

Get good.

Thrax Legati are a high-priority target. Meaning when one pops up it should never leave your sight until it's dead. Stay mobile, keep it in your sight and shoot it until it dies.

I understand that the concept 'stay mobile' is hard to grasp after years and years of using the 'stand still and deflect bullets with your face' meta, but do try that.

[0_The_F00l]

I like the challenge , but i do not like that the enemy is completely invincible during this time.

It should be a risk reward situation where if we can damage the ghosts the main body should also get damaged and return sooner.

[Unimira]

We should be able to stop the beam attack by attacking the ghosts in operator but this feature was probably left half-finished and/or forgotten, only works when hosting (I think) and it doesn't damage or bring back the main body any faster. May as well just wait it out behind cover...

[RobouteRob]

1 hour ago, Wolfwaffe said:

Stay mobile,

Dear God.....NO. Have you tried fighting legatus with a squad?

Stay mobile? I'd say stay in your position soldier, or you're risking that lazer sweep go all over the place and smacking some unaware teammates (unless you like to troll).

Go for a cover if it's within close proximity (5-10m) and don't move if there aren't any,

Go vertical and time your jump or slide left/right slightly, with proper understanding of its timing it should be evade-able....most of the time....

 

Anyway....God bless all of you frost globbers and volt elec shielders that understand how to shield your teammates from this abomination.

I've seen gara doing it too, but a bit unreliable since most of the times, the vitriv shield is not tall enough.

Edited June 6 by RobouteRob

[(PSN)Sentiel]

My only problem with their laser attack is that the actual hitbox seems to be much bigger than the laser's visual. It basically never hits me directly because I move away but I still get Magnetic proc.

It's the same crap like Arson (Heat) Eximus attack visuals and actual hitbox not being the same.

[Wolfwaffe]

47 minutes ago, RobouteRob said:

Dear God.....NO. Have you tried fighting legatus with a squad?

Stay mobile? I'd say stay in your position soldier, or you're risking that lazer sweep go all over the place and smacking some unaware teammates (unless you like to troll).

Go for a cover if it's within close proximity (5-10m) and don't move if there aren't any,

Go vertical and time your jump or slide left/right slightly, with proper understanding of its timing it should be evade-able....most of the time....

 

Anyway....God bless all of you frost globbers and volt elec shielders that understand how to shield your teammates from this abomination.

I've seen gara doing it too, but a bit unreliable since most of the times, the vitriv shield is not tall enough.

You know, you don't have to jump and run all over the place to avoid it. More often than not I avoid it by either jumping over the goasts, or running under them while they do the laser sweep.

And don't blame me for my teammates' lack of situational awareness... Though this seems to be a world-wide issue, seeing how 90% of the people in the streets aremore interested in looking at their phones than where they are going.

[Frendh]

Please do not remove Thrax units from the spawn pool.

[RobouteRob]

18 minutes ago, Wolfwaffe said:

You know, you don't have to jump and run all over the place to avoid it. More often than not I avoid it by either jumping over the goasts, or running under them while they do the laser sweep.

And don't blame me for my teammates' lack of situational awareness... Though this seems to be a world-wide issue, seeing how 90% of the people in the streets aremore interested in looking at their phones than where they are going.

 

I'm not blaming anyone,

I just don't see how telling people vaguely to "stay mobile" will help other players frustration and offers a safer solution.

 

[sunderthefirmament]

4 hours ago, Wolfwaffe said:

Hate to say it, but...

Get good.

Thrax Legati are a high-priority target. Meaning when one pops up it should never leave your sight until it's dead. Stay mobile, keep it in your sight and shoot it until it dies.

I understand that the concept 'stay mobile' is hard to grasp after years and years of using the 'stand still and deflect bullets with your face' meta, but do try that.

Your condescension is unwelcome and unneeded. I addressed the points you bring up here in an earlier reply. I‘m not dying to Thrax. I’m finding them more boring than anything else, as the counterplay (jump up and aimglide until they’re done) is really passive. Here, I’ll quote myself:  

 

23 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve been downed in SP Circuit, and they were all during week 1. 
 

My issue with the attack isn’t the damage. Nor is it the magnetic proc. It’s twofold: the waiting and the glitchiness.  I think enemy attacks that basically boil down to “please wait” are bad game design. It’s one thing when a boss or mini boss uses them.  The counterplay is easy: jump and aim glide. Done.   But when the enemy using this attack spawns numerous times every wave, it gets old fast. As for the glitchiness… Thrax can still softlock the Circuit. They can still glitch out and leave permanent damaging beam objects. I had one do that to the defense objective one time. Thank goodness I was Frost. 

I understand how to survive in the Circuit. I’m MR33 with years (thousands of hours) of experience.  I know the value of mobility. It’s inaccurate to assume that a complaint about an enemy in this game belies a lack of experience or skill. 

[(XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn]

4 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I understand how to survive in the Circuit. I’m MR33 with years (thousands of hours) of experience.  I know the value of mobility. It’s inaccurate to assume that a complaint about an enemy in this game belies a lack of experience or skill. 

Right?!

I just had a 4200-health full-shields Gyre eat grass in one shot from a Thrax beam halfway across the map... experience and skill have nothing to do with it. That being said, I wouldn't want any tougher enemy removed or nerfed since, at this point, there are so very very few things in framegame that make me say "WHOA. WTF. REALLY, I DIED?!"  😂

[Mazifet]

I don't understand why they're such a problem. The void beams can easily be dodged by strafing to the side or going behind something. That's the only "problematic" thing they have. After that they're just a slightly tanky enemy, a few headshots from most weapons will kill them.

[Tiltskillet]

40 minutes ago, Mazifet said:

I don't understand why they're such a problem. The void beams can easily be dodged by strafing to the side or going behind something. That's the only "problematic" thing they have. After that they're just a slightly tanky enemy, a few headshots from most weapons will kill them.

I don't fully understand the more extreme complaints either.    OTOH I also don't fully understand how I'm countering the beams and I think there is some room for improvement there.  Mostly I see or hear the Thrax go into helecopter mode and roll or jump away.  80% of the time this works.  20% of the time it doesn't, and it's often hard for me to tell what went right or wrong.  It makes me suspect  the visible effect isn't corresponding well with the hitbox, or maybe it's piercing some terrain features and not others.  I wish I could test this in the sim to get a better feel for it.  I do remember having some of the same trouble in Zariman.

The other part of it though is that Thrax can stay in that mode for what feels like a long time, and it can happen a lot during the course of a stage.  So even when it works, moving out of the way isn't exactly satisfying  counterplay.   I've tried shooting them with my amp like in Zariman, but I gave up in Circuit when it never seemed to have any effect.  Apparently this is bugged to not work as client (sometimes?) so that at least needs fixed.

But I certainly don't want them removed.

[Mr.Holyroller]

I like them the way they are.
1) You can use arcane nullifier to circumvent it completely
2) Its the only real challenge with circuit enemy types
3) I would take them over nullifiers given the enemy level scaling

[cute_moth.npc]

43 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

I don't fully understand the more extreme complaints either.    OTOH I also don't fully understand how I'm countering the beams and I think there is some room for improvement there.  Mostly I see or hear the Thrax go into helecopter mode and roll or jump away.  80% of the time this works.  20% of the time it doesn't, and it's often hard for me to tell what went right or wrong.  It makes me suspect  the visible effect isn't corresponding well with the hitbox, or maybe it's piercing some terrain features and not others.  I wish I could test this in the sim to get a better feel for it.  I do remember having some of the same trouble in Zariman.

The other part of it though is that Thrax can stay in that mode for what feels like a long time, and it can happen a lot during the course of a stage.  So even when it works, moving out of the way isn't exactly satisfying  counterplay.   I've tried shooting them with my amp like in Zariman, but I gave up in Circuit when it never seemed to have any effect.  Apparently this is bugged to not work as client (sometimes?) so that at least needs fixed.

But I certainly don't want them removed.

I don't want them removed either, as they are they're disruptive and annoying but it's nice to have enemies that can do something at the same time. I find myself looking out for Thrax units when playing and that's a good thing, to have enemies with meaning instead of 50 flavours of loot pinata. Improving the counterplay and lowering the disruption to the flow would be nice though.

 

[LittleLeonie]

lol

[Tiltskillet]

45 minutes ago, Mr.Holyroller said:

) I would take them over nullifiers given the enemy level scaling

I'm probably more pro-nulli than a lot of players, but in Circuit I often do think about grateful I am they're not around. :P

[NovaLP]

1) You can shoot the ghosts of the legatus when he splits to prevent the beams from happening in the first place (very usefull for defense and excavation if you do not have a defense frame). Also, If you destroy all ghosts 3 it forces them back into their corporeal form, resolving the issue of them bugging out.
I have to say tho i encountered them bugging out when duviri released but after a few hotfixes ago, I never encountered that problem again.

2) If you have a problem avoiding the beams, just jump up to a point where you are positioned higher then the ghosts and then aimglide until their beam attack is finished. (they can't target anything above them, because beams start at 0° and rotate to a maximum of 90° up)

3) That you haven't figured this out yourself tells me that you might be a newer player, which is fine but you could've just asked how to deal with an enemy you have a problem with.

4) If you aren't a newer player, how did you deal with high level Battalysts before? Did you just die? Battalysts are very similar to Legatus with a few key differences that make them (Legatus) an even better enemy design imo, their abilities are delayed and you can hit them while they do their disco attack. But you can't cancel their disco attack, it deals much more damage and it lasts much, much longer. 

Edited June 6 by NovaLP

[Althaline]

3 hours ago, NovaLP said:

1) You can shoot the ghosts of the legatus when he splits to prevent the beams from happening in the first place (very usefull for defense and excavation if you do not have a defense frame). Also, If you destroy all ghosts 3 it forces them back into their corporeal form, resolving the issue of them bugging out.

This doesn't work for 2 reasons. Firstly, the ghosts often begin firing before they can reasonably be expected to be shot down (especially if you're reacting to the audio cue when one spawns behind you). Secondly, afaik the ghosts have scaling health, meaning past a certain level you can no longer kill them at all.

 

3 hours ago, NovaLP said:

2) If you have a problem avoiding the beams, just jump up to a point where you are positioned higher then the ghosts and then aimglide until their beam attack is finished. (they can't target anything above them, because beams start at 0° and rotate to a maximum of 90° up)

This is flat wrong. I've been hit while above them multiple times before, and they have a harsh disconnect between the visuals of the beam and its hitbox.

 

3 hours ago, NovaLP said:

3) That you haven't figured this out yourself tells me that you might be a newer player, which is fine but you could've just asked how to deal with an enemy you have a problem with.

You can easily check OP's profile and see that they've at least been on the forums since 2015, a far cry from a new player. Assuming that anyone who has a complaint about unreasonable enemy mechanics is incompetent is downright rude.

 

3 hours ago, NovaLP said:

4) If you aren't a newer player, how did you deal with high level Battalysts before? Did you just die? Battalysts are very similar to Legatus with a few key differences that make them (Legatus) an even better enemy design imo, their abilities are delayed and you can hit them while they do their disco attack. But you can't cancel their disco attack, it deals much more damage and it lasts much, much longer. 

The Battalyst disco is similar to the Legatus panic-hide-magnet-laser, but is a much better designed ability. It takes time to spin up to maximum power, it doesn't make the Battalyst invulnerable, and it leaves them immobile for the duration. Additionally, you're wrong about being unable to cancel the attack, any knockdown or ragdoll effect will disable the ability (it's one of the few uses of Rip Line I ever found, though a Heavy Slam will do the trick).