This game needs actual endgame content.

[(XBOX)Exoni Prime]

23 hours ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

The key issue is recognizing that the earned resources are incompatible with end game. The fact level cap is even possible in this game means that the player has gone beyond any practical difficulty setting.  This issue is at the heart of the problem you are describing. 

The top level player is beyond the set limits of the game.

Content is created to challenge that player. 

A reward in the form of a power boost is attached to said content.

Players desiring to get said boost engage in content. They find it too challenging because they are not top level players.

DE finds such content a waste/loss because so few engage with content.

They make content accessible to most players.

Content is no longer challenging for top level players.

Repeat. 

The only way to break that loop is to make the power gap between the top and the casual smaller. So that the casual that has progressed far enough can hang with the players who seek a challenge. While the players seeking challenge can still be challenged by said content. 

 

 

Sorry not able to access my computer atm so bear with me when it comes to the reply.

I absolutely agree, I may have to reassess the way I view endgame. 

As a player of 7+ years (idk if that's considered a vet lol), I've given up trying to achieve difficult content and mainly prioritize on fun. One one hand I do find more challenging content fun like steel path, it makes me rethink the way I build frames and play the game. On the other hand, I probably wouldn't know what's best for difficult content more than the person that level caps on an average day to day basis.

I think you're correct, though. What makes warframe such of a good game is the accessibility to content rather than the lack of it thereof. I personally think that rewards should scale for said content, but that's because of the feedback and criticism I've heard over the years. Overall, I think you have a far better understanding than I of that.

On 2023-06-20 at 12:35 PM, Felsagger said:

 

(I will post this on feedback, if any of you are interested)

I'll address this topic from an academic point of view with a formal approach. (Zero critiques, zero comparisons only proposal)

The way specters are settled could be the way some enemies are settled too from a developer standpoint. But I'll write this from a player standpoint or my role. Enemies should have a loadout of three weapons or two as standard military soldiers. They should have abilities and of course different loadouts. The enemies, Grineer, must walk in platoon formations and should do their path finding like the standards platoons. 

The enemies need armored divisions and robotic divisions such as the use of drones, autonomous units like mechs and of course something similar to titans or mechs. There should be the use of tanks, armored vehicles and some sort of howitzers in their artillery. Grinner must have special artillery for support and heavy automatic gun emplacement on turrets that actually poses a real danger. The use of launched cluster bombs, missiles and long-range railguns may be settled in their base. 

Grinner has a lot of carriers and vehicles. They should use them more often for aerial support. Similar concepts should be applied with the Corpus. But corpus may use more tactical bombardments, beam cannons and stationary flying cruisers flying at low altitudes equipped with all sort of guns. The robotics of the Corpus should be more abundant and menacing. This set of individuals are more oriented into full cybernetics with all the advantages of communication that such technology provides. Their military accuracy is somewhat more complicated where some sort of aggressive strategies are involved. 

Grineer are strict military but Corpus is more abusive with menacing robotics. Corpus may use lots of armored mechs and mechanized spiders more often. 

1. Each faction has a set of ranks and teams for different tasks. 

2. Each faction developed the technology to take down Warframes. The enemy know how to stop their powers with nullifier fields, pylons that absorbs the use of their energy and countermeasures that reduces their shields with magnetic devices. 

3. Enemies equipped with opticors, snipetron, Lankas can instagib. Very powerful countermeasures can put an end to disrespectful tennos/drifters with bombardments and enemy can one shot players at depending on the troops that the Grineer has on certain missions. 

4. The enemy IS the majority. Their numbers are staggering and their resources are almost infinite. Yes, Warframe may fight for a while but when the enemy presses, No Warframe BUILT is safe. That includes the veteran with all maxed out. The enemies can be shot down easily as usual but the enemy can one shot the player if he/she is not careful. The enemy can call for reinforcement including bosses up to two or three if necessary. The enemy IS always relentless. 

 

In other games the enemy could abuse the player. In this game the player abuses the enemy all the time. That has to change. Warframe is a game where the factions are military armadas. Even the sentient is an organized military armada. In this pseudo cyberpunk universe the use of robotics and autonomous units should be more prevalent. These units should have warframe countermeasures and be as agile like those Titans in Titanfall 2 on certain missions of course. The warframe and the tenno/driffer must choose his/her opportunities carefully because the enemy packs a lot of heat. 

As a player this may be the proper way working with the enemy AI. Path finding and finite state machines may get a good revision. The late game needs it. The player who are already expert will no longer play for rewards. This player is looking for the risks, challenges and relentless aggressions of these factions. At some point where the player is military structured, he or she plays the game to stress test his or her luck. The player must KNOW defeat. This is fundamental on a game of this sort. 

But all of this may be implemented as optional on all the missions and all the circumstances. At this point farming and grinding is pointless. What matters is the game itself and how authentic and immersive such experience is solo and as a team. 

1. Friendly fire must be on all the time between enemies and between peers. This makes the experience realistic. The player's powers affect everybody. Good judgment and use of them matters. Hence all the stats on the mods and the abilities matters. Every number matters because builds should be done thinking on the team safety. Team coordination for this is essential. Of course this type of gameplay offers zero rewards. This is reserved for structured and organized experts. 

2. This is optional. The game as is will not stop to exist. Players will have the same grinding and farming warframe they enjoy. For us, Titanfall 2 players and 2042 players, we want to test our strategies against enemies that can take us out. This is what we call "The theater of war". It is something similar to solar rails but always cooperative. It's a revisit of the solar map and the nodes but with enemies that can really hurt not with level 9999 mega tanks for enemies. 

3. Simulacrum needs a lift. For example. The player can simulate any of these missions with what is mentioned here. He can adjust the enemy resilience, aim accuracy, damage per second, area of effect on cluster weapons, military aggressiveness among other things like their numbers and the types of enemies on every tileset the game has. 

Let us remember that this is optional and important for late game players who has everything. Obviously, casuals who wants to ventures on these difficulties, they are welcome to do so. Team oriented tasks, of course is not for everybody. So this is not forced on anyone. But for many of us who have a tactical heart, this is how we play our games. This is why From Software are still relevant to us. These games punish mistakes. 

Also have to point out how damn impressive this is of a concept. This is the kind of thing I want to push for warframe.

[Felsagger]

18 minutes ago, (XBOX)Exoni Prime said:

 

Also have to point out how damn impressive this is of a concept. This is the kind of thing I want to push for warframe.

The idea is to not force this type of game play. Preserve the game as is with the quotidian farm and all but provide a flavor of what Warframe is at a level of strategy, difficulty, lore and the Warframe parkour gameplay. 

The enemy buff will not affect the kernel structure of the game. This could be an extension to the simulacrum or a particular game mode for experienced players to have. Of course the game will work with rewards and all as usual but this will extend the number of players, or those players who wants to have fun with the game trying all of things in an environment that can be challenging if the player wants to test his or her skills. 

I think late game and endgame should be settled as an option. In Unreal 2004 people chose their endgame and people had a lot of fun those days for what the game was. I know that the industry is settled with the ROI and all the other endeavours of capitalism. Tencent wants money, DE wants salary. Games are not an act of generosity. Money needs to be made because it's a round wheel and exchange of goods. Entertainment for money. That is the trade like everything else. 

But again if some love arrives, if that happens as an act of luck, well the game improve on the long run. Experts and novice can play in a common ground where intrinsics is what matters without altering the nature of what the game is up to this point. 

One thing DE got right. If it is optional and is good, then it's double good. 

[Felsagger]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

They already have those weapons, and it again does jack squat for their survival or threat level against the Tenno unless we use a fragile frame. Have you never unlocked the Ogris, Tonkor, Zarr, Bramma, Tetra and so on from liches and sister? Did you never do Scarlet Spear to experience when elite shield lancers where actually "deadly"?

I did and it was fun when I got my ass served. There was a sense of danger and even mayhem. 

Many of us where scared of the Lich with the Bramma when the Bramma was a police stick doing justice. We all went into Lich hunt with almost shieldless frames. In a party we had this obsession of hunting the Lich with the Bramma because we were scared the time he touched ground. We were screaming our lungs out all the way in the chat party because the dude had a punch. He delivered two instant knockouts with one Bramma shot that came literally from hell. 

Those were the good times I miss in Warframe. They don't happen too often because the game is just a solo game with social features in it. At least we had all that stuff with the clan but other than that the game doesn't offer much danger and that type of mayhem. 

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The big problem is no matter how much you give the enemy, you'll never get around the issues at hand, which is our TTK and TTL. Punish frames by removing the option to rely on skill based defense or CC?

 

Wait hold it. In other games the chances between the enemy and the player is around 50/50 or 60/40 of chances more or less. In here we abuse the enemy all the time. DE is way too shy hurting the player because that would break the bubble of dopamine and the placebo that the player got pampered with. 

 

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well what are you gonna do about the tank frames that dont give a crap in the first place? Cheese them with overpowering pinpoint damage? Well you just shoved another rusty knife or broken bottle up the poop chute for the already fragile frames that relied on skills to survive.

Players has other frames. This proposal provides an optional type of gaming. The game as is will not be affected. That throws out all of those concerns to the window. 

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Warframe overall needs to be toned down severly and streamlined before there is ever a point to add enemy types or specific mechanics. Otherwise you end up with things like the Thrax from zariman/lua that are horribly imbalanced for the roster, since they are either extremely punishing for some or just another slightly more glowing trash mob for others. Same deal with disruptors, the various bursas, scrambus, nullifiers and toxic ancients. Out of the frames (or well loadouts) I currently play, not a single one of them really care what mobs I face, if they can drain my energy, nullify me or directly attack my health, or have "tons" of ehp, like the Nox, Ambulas or Guardians and some other eximus units. And it certainly didnt help that we got access to genesis incarnon weapons, that both clear crowds like it is nobodys business, they also serve as single target solutions to any threat you face.

NO. 

That notion is entirely wrong. What needs to be worked on is the enemy. The enemy has the intelligence of a DUI flea and the army is entirely defenseless against Warframes. 

[(XBOX)Lady Ukita]

3 hours ago, VibingCat said:

Most players don't want any harder gamemode, so if we got one with extra loot, casual players will complain. Only a small portion of the community wishes for more challenging content and of course they are the oldest and richest players, who don't really need extra loot.

It may sound unfair not to have additional rewards but this way nobody would get mad. 

Can we stop using this lazy excuse? The survey from last year which had more than 70,000 responses, which exceeds the average concurrent players of about 40-50,000 judging from steamcharts. 58% of responses wanted trails/raids to return, and DE themselves explicitly stated that, "Players would like to see Trials come back, in addition to some more challenging end game content." I don't know where people got the notion where it's only a miniscule minority or small 1% of players asking for an engaging endgame loop when we have the evidence to confirm otherwise. A lot of people want challenging endgame content, and we wouldn't be having this nigh decade long discussion/argument if that wasn't the case.

How DE will approach it is a different discussion, but the SP Orowyrm fight is seemingly treading the waters for dungeon/raid-like encounters.

[Felsagger]

The SP Orowyrm was one of the BEST boss fights that DE did in a DECADE!

 

Took them ten years to make one good boss fight, lol. 

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, VibingCat said:

Most players don't want any harder gamemode, so if we got one with extra loot, casual players will complain. Only a small portion of the community wishes for more challenging content and of course they are the oldest and richest players, who don't really need extra loot.

It may sound unfair not to have additional rewards but this way nobody would get mad. 

The game needs to move on though and get harder over time gradually. That isnt the same as taking a massive jump, it is about adding more content. No reason for casual players to complain since the content isnt running away from them, it will be there when they get to that point of progression, like in every other game of this type. And we do need extra loot, since the whole genre WF is part of is about chasing and collecting loot, preferably in gradually more and more challenging content.

Then those people shouldnt play this type of game to begin with.

14 hours ago, Felsagger said:

I did and it was fun when I got my ass served. There was a sense of danger and even mayhem. 

Many of us where scared of the Lich with the Bramma when the Bramma was a police stick doing justice. We all went into Lich hunt with almost shieldless frames. In a party we had this obsession of hunting the Lich with the Bramma because we were scared the time he touched ground. We were screaming our lungs out all the way in the chat party because the dude had a punch. He delivered two instant knockouts with one Bramma shot that came literally from hell. 

Those were the good times I miss in Warframe. They don't happen too often because the game is just a solo game with social features in it. At least we had all that stuff with the clan but other than that the game doesn't offer much danger and that type of mayhem. 

 

Wait hold it. In other games the chances between the enemy and the player is around 50/50 or 60/40 of chances more or less. In here we abuse the enemy all the time. DE is way too shy hurting the player because that would break the bubble of dopamine and the placebo that the player got pampered with. 

 

Players has other frames. This proposal provides an optional type of gaming. The game as is will not be affected. That throws out all of those concerns to the window. 

NO. 

That notion is entirely wrong. What needs to be worked on is the enemy. The enemy has the intelligence of a DUI flea and the army is entirely defenseless against Warframes. 

Then you played versus some wicked liches or with complete dumpster players and with weak frames. There was and still is a huge part of the roster that can completely circumvent anything the liches throw at you, which is kinda my point. There is no way to add something that cannot be instantly cheesed. Saying Liches gave a sense of danger is like saying Eidolons or PT are challenging when you bring the wrong tools for the job. The only thing in liches that were "challenging" was if you ended up with a player that had spawned a radiation related lich and had no situational awareness when they were radiated, so killed their own. But that is like saying sorties are challenging.

Not sure what "other games" you play where mobs have a 50 or even 40% chance versus the player. Borderlands no, Diablo no, Outriders no, Path of Exile no, Grim Dawn no, Dying Light no, DayZ no, Valheim no, 7DtD no, WoW no, Guild Wars no and the no list goes on.

"Players has other frames" isnt really a counter to what I said, it wont change the imbalance of the game or do anything since something will breeze through it like nothing.

The enemy is pointless to work on when it cannot use what it is given since whatever work is put into it will go unnoticed and have zero impact on gameplay. And it isnt that they are defenseless to Warframes, it is that they are defenseless to our full loadouts. So yes, the game needs a massive rebalance before there is a minimal point to reworking the enemies to be smarter and more threatening. Why else do you think DE adds content that more or less wipes the slate clean?

[Dragondice]

On 2023-06-17 at 8:14 AM, 4thBro said:

And by this, I mean, content with max level enemies, and rewards for being able to do this type of content.

 

I don't know if this is going to sound elitist of me... (which is generally the preface of elitist comments, but here we go)

But I get triggered when I see random people sweeping through an Arbitration with an Arca Plasmor, against Grineer (and we all know damn well it's like, pure viral or something), and they have 95% damage done and probably have ZERO survivability... but it's okay. Because it's just Arbies. Even though they were supposed to be hard content, endgame, etc... but they just aren't.

 

I get triggered when it's like... how do I even put it...

I spend so much time planning out my Frames to be able to not just KILL max level armored Grineer, but also be able to handle Corpus (nullifiers) as they are a whole other obstacle type, then also be able to SURVIVE these two factions (and this is relevant because of orokin faction maps), and I look around and it's just like... ... ...

There is NOWHERE to utilize this effort that I put in.

I look around, and it's just Arca Plasmor users (not always literally, but this gun is my meme example) sweeping through a room of Grineer, because everything is so low level that it doesn't matter if you build poorly or plan poorly.

 

Even in the highest starting level content, it's just, "Okay, we're staying 5 minutes then extracting." Because... well, why not, I guess?

And even for those that WANT to fight max level challenging content, NOBODY wants to sit in a game for LITERALLY EIGHT HOURS just to get to it. And then, there's not even a reward for it???

It's just so bizarre. And so frustrating for those that want to be an upper-end gamer. IS THAT ELITIST TO SAY? Honestly... I don't think so. I know many people will see it as such, but I'd have that debate with them.

 

If you want to play casually, nothing is stopping you from doing that.

However, if you want to play on a higher level, the game IS stopping you from doing that. And that's my focus here.

 

If you wanna sweep through low level Grineer with a poor gun choice just because you like it and it makes you feel good, by all means, do that.

But why can't people like me build smart, build strong, and then go test it out and get rewarded if it works?

 

Just ugh, dude.

I dunno. Whatevs, lol. Cheers!

tl:dr Void Cascade SP requires good builds on warframes, weapons AND operators, understanding game mechanics and teamplay and rewards you for it

So u might know this already, but there is one gamemode that might meet your requirements...
SP Void Cascade i have trouble staying alive at least solo and it ramps up to 9999 after about 1 hour if u don't have the right build u will die/not do much damage...
even if u do damage the most efficent way to do it is to kill thrax ASAP and the quickest way to do that is to have trinty true dmg + viral primer (can't have cold since it slows the thrax transformation) but u also need kind of crowd control since otherwise staying a live is hell and once u get to level cap you actually get rewarded, cause more thrax spawn --> more thrax more zariman arcanes (it is best with mod drop chance booster since arcnes are affected by that)
the easy way is Revenant, but he is not as quick as other build AND if u don't build him correctly you are also kinda done...
there LOADS of nullifiers as well so even with rev. u are not that safe + they actually have a unquie grineer enemey taht forces you into operator (kinda corpus equivalent)
Bascially the most optimum way is a balanced team, 2 people crew control 2 people tharx killers 1 of each stays to protect the extractors and the other pair goes ahead to new ones... the optimum way get's you to levelcap faster, gives you more rewards and is ACTUAL teamplay

[Felsagger]

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Then you played versus some wicked liches or with complete dumpster players and with weak frames. There was and still is a huge part of the roster that can completely circumvent anything the liches throw at you, which is kinda my point. There is no way to add something that cannot be instantly cheesed. Saying Liches gave a sense of danger is like saying Eidolons or PT are challenging when you bring the wrong tools for the job. The only thing in liches that were "challenging" was if you ended up with a player that had spawned a radiation related lich and had no situational awareness when they were radiated, so killed their own. But that is like saying sorties are challenging.

When we played, the idea was to have some sense of danger instead of simply stomping the Lich. Yes, DE can harm the player with some challenge here and there but if anyone goes for the meta, the game ends up trivialized. Actually power creep players trivialize almost everything in this game. 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

"Players has other frames" isnt really a counter to what I said, it wont change the imbalance of the game or do anything since something will breeze through it like nothing.

After ten years, DE never cared about the imbalances. It doesn't matter anyway. A game like can NEVER be balanced perfectly either. It's false heroic that no developer will do. 

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The enemy is pointless to work on when it cannot use what it is given since whatever work is put into it will go unnoticed and have zero impact on gameplay. And it isnt that they are defenseless to Warframes, it is that they are defenseless to our full loadouts. So yes, the game needs a massive rebalance before there is a minimal point to reworking the enemies to be smarter and more threatening. Why else do you think DE adds content that more or less wipes the slate clean?

No it doesn't. We must be defenseless against unstoppable attacks that we could dodge and so on. DE don't want to deal with it because they are shy and are not that experienced working with smart AI. I think they need an associated team to work with the enemy AI, their loadout and their finite state machines and path finding. 

The AI makes or break the game. In Warframe the AI is dumber than a drunk flea and stupider than a dromedary. 

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Felsagger said:

When we played, the idea was to have some sense of danger instead of simply stomping the Lich. Yes, DE can harm the player with some challenge here and there but if anyone goes for the meta, the game ends up trivialized. Actually power creep players trivialize almost everything in this game. 

After ten years, DE never cared about the imbalances. It doesn't matter anyway. A game like can NEVER be balanced perfectly either. It's false heroic that no developer will do. 

No it doesn't. We must be defenseless against unstoppable attacks that we could dodge and so on. DE don't want to deal with it because they are shy and are not that experienced working with smart AI. I think they need an associated team to work with the enemy AI, their loadout and their finite state machines and path finding. 

The AI makes or break the game. In Warframe the AI is dumber than a drunk flea and stupider than a dromedary. 

But that is a decision you make, meaning that improving something like A.I or handing out a bunch of new attacks wont do anything for the majority, we shouldnt have to downgrade ourselves to get challenged.

And how you can say what you say and then still say "No, it doesn't" regarding the whole game needing a massive overhaul before A.I and crap is added is beyond me. I mean, you say it in your first section that power creep trivilizes everything, then you go and more or less say the opposite and keep riding the "A.I must improve" train. Because still, there is nothing the A.I can do to us, no matter how smart it is, because we will wipe it out before it gets a chance to react, just as it is now. It doesnt matter how great their path finding could get when they dont even have a chance to actually use the pathing before they are dead and gone.

Clearly no, the A.I doesnt make or break a game. The power we have access to in WF breaks the game. You actually havent mentioned anything you think an A.I can do if it is improved to counter our power. You've mentioned a bunch of cheese stuffing which is completely seperate to the A.I intelligence itself. Not even players can survive our own power, and we can think and path find better than an A.I. You can see this with rad sorties, we dont have a time to react before we are dead. And you can also look just at conclave where several things are harshly reduced so players wont die in a hit from the other side of the map.

[Felsagger]

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

But that is a decision you make, meaning that improving something like A.I or handing out a bunch of new attacks wont do anything for the majority, we shouldnt have to downgrade ourselves to get challenged.

Yup. You missed the part where the proposal that I placed in Feedback said (Optional)

The game will remain remains as is. 

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And how you can say what you say and then still say "No, it doesn't" regarding the whole game needing a massive overhaul before A.I and crap is added is beyond me. I mean, you say it in your first section that power creep trivilizes everything, then you go and more or less say the opposite and keep riding the "A.I must improve" train. Because still, there is nothing the A.I can do to us, no matter how smart it is, because we will wipe it out before it gets a chance to react, just as it is now. It doesnt matter how great their path finding could get when they dont even have a chance to actually use the pathing before they are dead and gone.

Because you jump and skip parts of the posts on the board. 

The proposal is an experimental testing where friendly fire is on, powers affects other warframes, enemies can cancel warframe powers, enemies can instagib. All of that is settled in a pseudo simulacrum of missions. This is an optional setting for experts and people who seek some sort of more realism in the game lore without the rewards. 

 

9 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Clearly no, the A.I doesnt make or break a game. The power we have access to in WF breaks the game. You actually havent mentioned anything you think an A.I can do if it is improved to counter our power. You've mentioned a bunch of cheese stuffing which is completely seperate to the A.I intelligence itself. Not even players can survive our own power, and we can think and path find better than an A.I. You can see this with rad sorties, we dont have a time to react before we are dead. And you can also look just at conclave where several things are harshly reduced so players wont die in a hit from the other side of the map.

Playing the devil's advocate is nothing new in the internet. You are not the first one who invented this type of trolling or the last. 

The A.I. is everything in the gaming industry with respect to single player games, PvE games  and online massive multiplayers against enemies, moreover in games like this. 

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Yup. You missed the part where the proposal that I placed in Feedback said (Optional)

The game will remain remains as is. 

Because you jump and skip parts of the posts on the board. 

The proposal is an experimental testing where friendly fire is on, powers affects other warframes, enemies can cancel warframe powers, enemies can instagib. All of that is settled in a pseudo simulacrum of missions. This is an optional setting for experts and people who seek some sort of more realism in the game lore without the rewards. 

 

Playing the devil's advocate is nothing new in the internet. You are not the first one who invented this type of trolling or the last. 

The A.I. is everything in the gaming industry with respect to single player games, PvE games  and online massive multiplayers against enemies, moreover in games like this. 

Yeah I'm not gonna read another thread to keep up to speed with this one.

It also still seems like a complete waste of time when it wont add more things to chase in a game like this. And when we know what the outcome will be considering we've seen it all elsewhere in the game already. It would be rad sorties or a rad lich but without the need to inflict rad before we instagib eachother. And there is no realism in that. Realism would be toning everyhing down first, then adding friendly fire and so on when not everything kills everything in a second.

edit: I mean honestly, who do you think it would attract when not even conclave, which is more balance in comparison cant attract a handful of players even, a mode that also has unique rewards tied to it. Yes, lets spend dev time on 0.0001% of the player base so that tight group of 4 friends can uhm goof around.

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Yeah I'm not gonna read another thread to keep up to speed with this one.

Then you are commenting randomly. Be responsible for once and read. Then post. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It also still seems like a complete waste of time when it wont add more things to chase in a game like this. And when we know what the outcome will be considering we've seen it all elsewhere in the game already. It would be rad sorties or a rad lich but without the need to inflict rad before we instagib eachother. And there is no realism in that. Realism would be toning everyhing down first, then adding friendly fire and so on when not everything kills everything in a second.

This is why AI is important. You already admitted it here. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

edit: I mean honestly, who do you think it would attract when not even conclave, which is more balance in comparison cant attract a handful of players even, a mode that also has unique rewards tied to it. Yes, lets spend dev time on 0.0001% of the player base so that tight group of 4 friends can uhm goof around.

If DE is not interested in putting intrinsics back to the game, I simply pack my luggage and depart towards other games investing money and time. That easy. It's not my loss, it's theirs. 

[0_The_F00l]

On 2023-06-20 at 11:19 PM, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Seeing how players react to even the slightest of nerfs. The only thing I'd expect from such a thing is a squish in player activity. 

No one likes to have their power taken away by overzealous developers after working so hard to get it. 

Depends on the changes and how they are applied.

Players will complain about change irrespective of what it is. And DE is not a stranger to needing things , 

The player base is usually not able to see that what is nerfed is their playing field and not their tools.

[GPrime96]

On 2023-06-17 at 1:14 AM, 4thBro said:

And even for those that WANT to fight max level challenging content, NOBODY wants to sit in a game for LITERALLY EIGHT HOURS just to get to it. And then, there's not even a reward for it???

While there’s other options to reach level cap in a hour or two but sure🙄

[SixVoltCar]

"actual endgame content"

Raids lower low end uptake and increase high end attrition, communities dwindle. 

Best avoid it entirely.