This game needs actual endgame content.

[(PSN)IdoThea]

4 hours ago, 4thBro said:

Even in the highest starting level content, it's just, "Okay, we're staying 5 minutes then extracting." Because... well, why not, I guess?

Why not find you own clan and get like minded players join so you can together so longer runs and talk about your builds?

 

[Voltage]

Endgame in Warframe is now the seasonal task loop structure you see in most other large live service games. There's really nothing to strive for other than waiting for daily and weekly server reset while waiting to see if the next major update "is the one".

Warframe is built from the ground up on repetitive content, but they've chosen to stop pursuing repetitive group activities that encourage competency like Eidolons, Trials, and Railjack, Operations, etc. They've also nurtured a playerbase that isn't encouraged to improve on their account or gamemode performance at all. This combination just removes any point to discussing content that is inaccessible to the average player and a rewarding experience for that top percentage who engage with it. Steel Path was a strive towards this, but it hasn't been expanded upon in a meaningful way due to heavy criticism for players feeling pushed to graduate to higher tiers of content. Progression is not universally praised in this game. Tons of people want all equipment to always be viable (which leads to immense powercreep from the top gear choices), and there's even been vast usage of the term "gear check" over the years to describe anything that requires a competent player with a competent loadout. 

Topics like these felt like they made sense to make during the 2014-2017 era of Warframe given the potential, but making one now is ignorant of the game's direction.

[EDM774]

The main negative point I have towards this is that knowing DE they won't waste dev time just to please the 1% they'll try to put exclusive desirable rewards behind it which even the casuals WILL want.

Skill gaps aside we're already seeing this stuff happening with the new Incarnon adapters. I have a friend that doesn't like steel path and the "bullet sponges" (he's perfectly capable of handling that kind of content, just doesn't see the point in the extra stress factor) but still does the weekly steel path stuff with me for those adapters, we even managed to hit level cap there a few times (granted the decrees really boost your performance there but that's for another discussion)

What I'm trying to say is that there is realistically no way for DE put tangible rewards behind content only 1% or 0.1% of the playerbase can access. There's no business/profitable logic to do so, DE is a company and a business afterall. All it'll do is aggravate the rest of the playerbase and end up costing DE money from people quitting the game over it.

IF they put some cosmetics or some profile badge for doing it it'll be fine but we know damn well they'll try locking some new weapon/arcane or whatever behind it cuz they want as many ppl as possible playing it to justify the dev time which just won't happen... ever.

The opportunity for you to reach this content currently is there but as you said there is no incentive, the incentive should come from you the player to push those limits, and I guess the dopamine hit of doing it outside of duviri and it's decrees carrying you. That's about it.

[Cerikus]

49 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Endgame in Warframe is now the seasonal task loop structure you see in most other large live service games. There's really nothing to strive for other than waiting for daily and weekly server reset while waiting to see if the next major update "is the one".

Warframe is built from the ground up on repetitive content, but they've chosen to stop pursuing repetitive group activities that encourage competency like Eidolons, Trials, and Railjack, Operations, etc. They've also nurtured a playerbase that isn't encouraged to improve on their account or gamemode performance at all. This combination just removes any point to discussing content that is inaccessible to the average player and a rewarding experience for that top percentage who engage with it. Steel Path was a strive towards this, but it hasn't been expanded upon in a meaningful way due to heavy criticism for players feeling pushed to graduate to higher tiers of content. Progression is not universally praised in this game. Tons of people want all equipment to always be viable (which leads to immense powercreep from the top gear choices), and there's even been vast usage of the term "gear check" over the years to describe anything that requires a competent player with a competent loadout. 

Topics like these felt like they made sense to make during the 2014-2017 era of Warframe given the potential, but making one now is ignorant of the game's direction.

Agreed. I want to add one thing though.

I am not sure, if it's entirely DE's fault they make the game this way. In recent years it seems gamers in general want to play solo in a world that's inhabited by other people. You can see this in other MMO games. It's a lot less about group coordination and competency and much more about solo grind and progression in a world that's alive.

I guess it's the same as the "the chicken or the egg" question, but this is not a problem only Warframe has. Gaming changed and not sure if for the better. DE are just going with the flow. There is nothing a game like Warframe can do for a solo player other than gear checks and puzzles. Gear checks are easy and whenever the puzzle is more complex than "Simon says" people complain. The playerbase is casual, so I don't blame them for doing the only thing they can.

[Xaero]

Actual endgame content should be actually challenging. Max level enemies would only force you to abuse certain game mechanics.

[Quimoth]

11 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Agreed. I want to add one thing though.

I am not sure, if it's entirely DE's fault they make the game this way. In recent years it seems gamers in general want to play solo in a world that's inhabited by other people. You can see this in other MMO games. It's a lot less about group coordination and competency and much more about solo grind and progression in a world that's alive.

I guess it's the same as the "the chicken or the egg" question, but this is not a problem only Warframe has. Gaming changed and not sure if for the better. DE are just going with the flow. There is nothing a game like Warframe can do for a solo player other than gear checks and puzzles. Gear checks are easy and whenever the puzzle is more complex than "Simon says" people complain. The playerbase is casual, so I don't blame them for doing the only thing they can.

Why I personally do not enjoy multiplayer Warframe that much anymore:

1. Host issues/migrations (a laggy host is just as bad as non-stop migrations)
2. Leeches
3. Not being able to pick my own pace (whether that is faster or slower truly depends on my motivation)
4. Toxicity in those few places where well coordinated groups do have an advantage

The last reason is the very same reason why I avoided raids for a long time when they were still here and why I avoid tridolons to this day. I just do not enjoy having to conform to some meta because all others are simply dwarfed by it.

I solo my content as much as I can just to avoid being flamed because I am not fully familiar with meta X for content X. The more important group coordination becomes, the easier it becomes to grief. The more people go toxic on others.

TL;DR; Catering around harder content is fine, but don't try to force group play, its plain stupid, bad, toxic and infuriating content that you will get from it.

[ShogunGunshow]

There is nothing that DE can create that players won't immediately find a way around and cheese. Warframes are just too powerful. Any 'challenging' endgame would revolve around doing mechanics in an encounter, not the actual surviving/damage-dealing portion.

If you want numerical challenge in the game, you should start arguing that all damage buffs should get tamped down to a 25% base with an artificial 50% cap and are all non-stacking, and do the same for damage reduction abilities. DE cannot create a game that is challenging but fair when some frames are wandering around with 99%+ damage reduction from a combination of abilities, adaptation, and arcanes, while also doing multiple times their normal damage, while their party also feeds them other buffs to boost that a dozen times. 

(Closest to an endgame that's challenging right now is Circuit where you might not get the choices that turn you into a god, but decrees take care of that pretty quick.)

[Cerikus]

3 minutes ago, Quimoth said:

TL;DR; Catering around harder content is fine, but don't try to force group play, its plain stupid, bad, toxic and infuriating content that you will get from it.

This sentiment is exactly what I am talking about. Most players think like you do, myself included and game devs would be stupid to not cater to these players.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

Endgame is there, sadly the more ''endgame'' you play or participate , more limits and cap you reach killing reason to eventualy do anything.

Endgame is about everyone picking their style and go do missions , complete genoside in name of lotus.  

Endgame just need more variables. If game has 500 weps but only 10 is without doubt top picks, and then few follow with heavy input and help of riven dispo, and then come few niche things. its problematic.

[Famecans]

💮there is no content in the game that makes the casual player reach this level and you can't see this difficulty as you are a PC player💮

[Felsagger]

5 hours ago, trst said:

Sadly the chances of getting content that warrants an entire optimized loadout is an absolute zero. DE doesn't want it, a lot (most?) of the community doesn't actually want it, and the game can't even support it without massive nerfs (which DE and a lot of player's don't want).

DE wants the game to be casual friendly plus it's easier to market/monetize a GAAS appealing to such an audience.

 

Correct. Let me quote Voltage's words: 

" it's not hard to have the impression that they are peddling a mobile-game structure to indoctrinate players into what the future of the game will be (e.g extreme time-gates compared to the past, exclusionary and obfuscated bundle purchases, general low-level marketing tactics that are well-known and easy to identify, etc.)."

This is an inevitable and inescapable truth. The status quo of this game seems like DE is indoctrinating the players for things to come such as the IOS phone game format.

As cruel this may sound, it must be said. DE wants a casual game for casuals. This is what makes money for them and Tencent but turns this game into next level class A degree manure. Why? The quality of the game is completely sacrificed such as challenge, immersion and authenticity. Does it hurt? Yes it hurts. It is what it is. The player has the choice to leave the game or make the game useful for him or her for what the game offers. 

Those ARE the options. The player takes it or leave it. 

 

 

Simple. 

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Endgame in Warframe is now the seasonal task loop structure you see in most other large live service games. There's really nothing to strive for other than waiting for daily and weekly server reset while waiting to see if the next major update "is the one".

Warframe is built from the ground up on repetitive content, but they've chosen to stop pursuing repetitive group activities that encourage competency like Eidolons, Trials, and Railjack, Operations, etc. They've also nurtured a playerbase that isn't encouraged to improve on their account or gamemode performance at all. This combination just removes any point to discussing content that is inaccessible to the average player and a rewarding experience for that top percentage who engage with it. Steel Path was a strive towards this, but it hasn't been expanded upon in a meaningful way due to heavy criticism for players feeling pushed to graduate to higher tiers of content. Progression is not universally praised in this game. Tons of people want all equipment to always be viable (which leads to immense powercreep from the top gear choices), and there's even been vast usage of the term "gear check" over the years to describe anything that requires a competent player with a competent loadout. 

Topics like these felt like they made sense to make during the 2014-2017 era of Warframe given the potential, but making one now is ignorant of the game's direction.

You have absolutely hit the nail on the head. Very well written and explained.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

27 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

There is nothing that DE can create that players won't immediately find a way around and cheese. Warframes are just too powerful. Any 'challenging' endgame would revolve around doing mechanics in an encounter, not the actual surviving/damage-dealing portion.

If you want numerical challenge in the game, you should start arguing that all damage buffs should get tamped down to a 25% base with an artificial 50% cap and are all non-stacking, and do the same for damage reduction abilities. DE cannot create a game that is challenging but fair when some frames are wandering around with 99%+ damage reduction from a combination of abilities, adaptation, and arcanes, while also doing multiple times their normal damage, while their party also feeds them other buffs to boost that a dozen times. 

(Closest to an endgame that's challenging right now is Circuit where you might not get the choices that turn you into a god, but decrees take care of that pretty quick.)

Many other mmos find ways to create engaging and difficult content as end game activities even with their own challenges those particular games face. There is no reason Warframe cant do it too but DE refuses to even try.

[Felsagger]

Voltage understands well what is going on. I don't have anything else to add on the technical aspects. 

Let me write down few words for the benefit of the reader about what this player is saying. His content is meaningful full of truth on many technical aspects of the game. 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

Endgame in Warframe is now the seasonal task loop structure you see in most other large live service games. There's really nothing to strive for other than waiting for daily and weekly server reset while waiting to see if the next major update "is the one".

 

The classical loop of "expect better things in the future" when actually they never happen. The player builds up hype and end up disappointed. This is a behavior that needs to end. The hopeful gets fooled. The current updates we got are simply atrocious if we compare the period of 2014 to 2017. 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

 

Warframe is built from the ground up on repetitive content, but they've chosen to stop pursuing repetitive group activities that encourage competency like Eidolons, Trials, and Railjack, Operations, etc.

This is the cooperative content that DE is ignoring. Warframe is supposed to be a community social game where people plan their strategies against tasks that requires competency and performance. 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

They've also nurtured a playerbase that isn't encouraged to improve on their account or gamemode performance at all.

This is exactly the meaning of the term a game made for casuals. It is exactly this. 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

This combination just removes any point to discussing content that is inaccessible to the average player and a rewarding experience for that top percentage who engage with it.

DE is trying something with Soulsframe but eventually all will converge to this. The community and DE agreed that such game should be focused to the average player. It's the average the goal of this game. DE doesn't even try to search for outliers at all. 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

 

Steel Path was a strive towards this, but it hasn't been expanded upon in a meaningful way due to heavy criticism for players feeling pushed to graduate to higher tiers of content. Progression is not universally praised in this game. Tons of people want all equipment to always be viable (which leads to immense powercreep from the top gear choices), and there's even been vast usage of the term "gear check" over the years to describe anything that requires a competent player with a competent loadout. 

Topics like these felt like they made sense to make during the 2014-2017 era of Warframe given the potential, but making one now is ignorant of the game's direction.

There is no point arguing or searching for any type of endgame. Why? Outliers are rejected by DE AND the community.

I think Voltage was way too precise with his words on this topic. Hope this clarify where we are at and what to expect from now on. 

[Felsagger]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

You have absolutely hit the nail on the head. Very well written and explained.

He uses the MIGHTY POWER OF COMMON SENSE. 

 

Behold the power of COMMON SENSE. :3...lol. 

[Skoomaseller]

i will not say no to the Tungsten Path, with level 9999 enemies.

[Felsagger]

5 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

i will not say no to the Tungsten Path, with level 9999 enemies.

We have few terms that we could use. 

 

We may use gases for that such as Neon Path or such. Or we could use liquids. I'm inclined to gases instead of solids or liquids. 

 

 

[Skoomaseller]

Just now, Felsagger said:

We have few terms that we could use. 

 

We may use gases for that such as Neon Path or such. Or we could use liquids. I'm inclined to gases instead of solids or liquids. 

 

 

nah it has to be harder than steel

[Felsagger]

Just now, Skoomaseller said:

nah it has to be harder than steel

But all of it will turn into GAS....lol. 

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, Cerikus said:

Agreed. I want to add one thing though.

I am not sure, if it's entirely DE's fault they make the game this way. In recent years it seems gamers in general want to play solo in a world that's inhabited by other people. You can see this in other MMO games. It's a lot less about group coordination and competency and much more about solo grind and progression in a world that's alive.

I guess it's the same as the "the chicken or the egg" question, but this is not a problem only Warframe has. Gaming changed and not sure if for the better. DE are just going with the flow. There is nothing a game like Warframe can do for a solo player other than gear checks and puzzles. Gear checks are easy and whenever the puzzle is more complex than "Simon says" people complain. The playerbase is casual, so I don't blame them for doing the only thing they can.

It's a symbiotic relationship. DE a long time ago starting giving off the message that your clan activity doesn't matter, your personal performance in a mission doesn't matter, there is little to no consequence to death, and you aren't directly rewarded more for an increase in performance (only indirectly in the form of saving time; efficiency). This message reinforces to players that they can expect the game to be trivial and accessibility is the priority over progression. Players become conditioned to this, and a major portion of players give this as feedback.

It's a positive reinforcement loop that pushes DE to continue developing this way, at the expense of core functionality in the game like gear progression. Powercreep is an inevitable with a game like this, but when there is this much focus on accessibility to accompany that powercreep, you end up undermining a major portion of the game itself. Prime Access gear has been heavily undermined for years now because of things like Helminth and Kuva/Tenet/Incarnon weapons. If every Warframe can own most identities and role function, then the only appeal of their choice becomes "flavor", not tactical choices and gear ownership rewards. "Using the right tool for the job" has been a staple in this game, but DE over time has made every piece of content a nail, and every gear choice you can make a hammer. What is still exciting (for me atleast) is waiting for that update (heavy copium) where DE brings back this feel, and being active rewards me with that progression that I've maintained. 

One of the easiest examples of this problem was the addition of self-revive and removal of limited daily revives. Paying Platinum for more revives was awful, but on the contrary, players were much more inclined to stick together, and there was much more value placed in the role of support. Trinity and Oberon used to be staple Warframes in groups. The last time Trinity had any relevance in the game was to abuse Link's ability to redirect self-damage and nuke a map. As a support Warframe, she's been dead longer than most active players have been playing the game.

42 minutes ago, Quimoth said:

TL;DR; Catering around harder content is fine, but don't try to force group play, its plain stupid, bad, toxic and infuriating content that you will get from it.

 

37 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

This sentiment is exactly what I am talking about. Most players think like you do, myself included and game devs would be stupid to not cater to these players.

This is exactly why I wrote my original comment. It's futile to have a discussion about "Ooooo, where is the endgame content" when by design the game has shifted in a way that places little encouragement on the player to improve, and even instills into players that group play is synonymous with toxicity when toxic players are just simply toxic. A workplace isn't a toxic environment because they expect you to perform in the same way a group isn't inherently encouraging toxicity just because it expects you to perform reasonably. The people with strict expectations won't recruit someone with your perspectives anyway.

The game is still an online multiplayer coop game, but it's more of a solo game with social features now.

[Felsagger]

5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The game is still an online multiplayer coop game, but it's more of a solo game with social features now.

 

Correct. 

 

This is why Warframe IS AN AVERAGE GAME and the reason why many players are leaving. Of course DE doesn't care because their aim is at the average players. We must understand that the set of average people in this world IS UNCOUNTABLE. 

[(PSN)rexis12]

8 minutes ago, Voltage said:

Using the right tool for the job

Don't forget, how DE will often nerf when we DO bring the right tools for the right job.

Such as using a Limbo for the Scarlet Spear event, the best tool for that job which was then subsequently bent out of shape to make it less effective.

And then the Khora healing nerf which was also using a different but right took for the job, and that tool getting bent out of shape.

The issue is that DE doesn't understand that the 'Right tool' will be the 'Effective Tool' and that will result in those tools being used more often other tools. And we see how mich they hate things being used more than others, unless it makes them money.

Healing And Support Frames literally cannot heal or support a Defense, or generally ANY objective, because they were too scared of people using the right tool.

[ShogunGunshow]

52 minutes ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Many other mmos find ways to create engaging and difficult content as end game activities even with their own challenges those particular games face. There is no reason Warframe cant do it too but DE refuses to even try.

Yeah they could do what I suggested and nerf the bejesus out of damage and damage resistance powers.

And then y'all would lose your goddamn minds.

[DrBorris]

20 minutes ago, Voltage said:

The game is still an online multiplayer coop game, but it's more of a solo game with social features now.

It is important to note it always has been. Yes, Trials existed, but the amount of players who complete a trial was in the 1% range iirc. The meta for trials was learning to do your thing and not communicate with anyone. The game has always been a 'solo' game with potentially 3 people next to you. Eidolons followed but were fairly quickly categorized as "bad content" by the general community. The only time group content came up it was to trivialize/cheese some new event or grind.

 

The most social the game ever was (at a reasonable scale) was Scarlet Spear. That event threw a group of 100ish people into a single instance and said "work together to meet this goal." There might still be some recency bias for me (which is hilarious as SS is 3 years old now) but completing a Flotilla with seconds on the clock made me feel more than anything ever has in the game...

But the sentiment around SS was horrid. Outside the arcane rewards, it is likely the least liked event in the game's history. For me Scarlet Spear felt like a MMO world boss in the context of Warframe, 100 people working together to beat up this big baddie. But that's not how people (chose) to see it, all they saw was other people being a hurdle to them getting the rewards they wanted. And they are absolutely valid for it. I'm looking at an uphill battle trying to explain why limiting a players achievement based on 99 other strangers is better game design.

I liked what SS was, the rewards have nothing to do with my fond memories of the event, but I also understand that it doesn't represent the way people enjoy the game. And unlike most of the posters here I understand that. I don't think my opinion higher or mightier, I don't think I'm enlightened with "common sense" because I think more hardcore design is "better". I don't villizanize DE's action with malicious intent and try to spin up some "they only care about money" conspiracy. Warframe is a game many, many people enjoy for what it is. There are things that I still think it could expand into without alienating those who currently like it, I'm not simply content with the state of the game, but I also try to empathize with DE's intents and other people in the communities desires.

 

Also level cap content is bad content and should never be designed around or made featured content (Circuit doesn't really count because the power scaling in that mode is intentionally a meme). There are many more interesting ways to add challenge that aren't continuing to inflate numbers, schmuck enemies don't need to be "challenging" for content to be challenging.

[ShogunGunshow]

SS was awesome and had enough variety in ground objectives to reward gimmick builds. I don't remember people hating on it but I was probably too busy having fun. 

I don't know how it would go down today with the stupid power creep and the helminth.