This game needs actual endgame content.

[Felsagger]

11 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Don't forget, how DE will often nerf when we DO bring the right tools for the right job.

Such as using a Limbo for the Scarlet Spear event, the best tool for that job which was then subsequently bent out of shape to make it less effective.

And then the Khora healing nerf which was also using a different but right took for the job, and that tool getting bent out of shape.

The issue is that DE doesn't understand that the 'Right tool' will be the 'Effective Tool' and that will result in those tools being used more often other tools. And we see how much they hate things being used more than others, unless it makes them money.

Healing And Support Frames literally cannot heal or support a Defense, or generally ANY objective, because they were too scared of people using the right tool.

Yes, correct. 

 

DE likes to produce controversy because it is a strategy used in politics among many other things. 

DE likes to contradict themselves because such contradictions are fueled by the contradictions motivated inside the community. 

DE is in the video game industry where the goal is centered on making money, money, money and MONEY not friends. 

DE must use stick and carrot systems, pachinko approach and RNG to hook up and fleece players. 

DE has the capacity to DISCARD FUN if FUN doesn't produce money for them. Return Of Investments IS the imperative language whether we like it or not. 

 

This is how things are. 

[Felsagger]

11 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

It is important to note it always has been. Yes, Trials existed, but the amount of players who complete a trial was in the 1% range iirc. 

But it wasn't. 

 

Solar rails says hi. DE tried. 

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, Cerikus said:

Agreed. I want to add one thing though.

I am not sure, if it's entirely DE's fault they make the game this way. In recent years it seems gamers in general want to play solo in a world that's inhabited by other people. You can see this in other MMO games. It's a lot less about group coordination and competency and much more about solo grind and progression in a world that's alive.

I guess it's the same as the "the chicken or the egg" question, but this is not a problem only Warframe has. Gaming changed and not sure if for the better. DE are just going with the flow. There is nothing a game like Warframe can do for a solo player other than gear checks and puzzles. Gear checks are easy and whenever the puzzle is more complex than "Simon says" people complain. The playerbase is casual, so I don't blame them for doing the only thing they can.

One thing is that WF isnt an actual MMO, it's just an online game with optional co-op. So for me I think it is more than fine that co-op isnt the focus, because we just dont have servers to support such content. Imagine if new content was released with forced co-op while still struggling with all the old host migration issues and so on. They just cannot guarantee that a player wont rage quit and leave the group at the mercy of host migration, or guarantee that only reliable hosts host sessions. Now if WF was an MMO with an actual server structure to support forced co-op modes I wouldnt mind it.

[Voltage]

41 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

It is important to note it always has been. Yes, Trials existed, but the amount of players who complete a trial was in the 1% range iirc. The meta for trials was learning to do your thing and not communicate with anyone. The game has always been a 'solo' game with potentially 3 people next to you. Eidolons followed but were fairly quickly categorized as "bad content" by the general community. The only time group content came up it was to trivialize/cheese some new event or grind.

This isn't exactly true. While perfect efficiency would mean everyone executes performance without communication, you need to get to that point first which requires all that communication. There were also several objectives that no matter how good you were, you had to let your team know (either through text, voice, or waypoints) that you completed a step and the mission can proceed. Eidolons had this same dynamic early on.

You are correct though in the rest of what you said. The game is in a totally different era now than it was then. The "solo game with optional coop" used to be something to describe some of the game, but that some has turned into a majority.

[Cerikus]

27 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

One thing is that WF isnt an actual MMO, it's just an online game with optional co-op.

It's an MMO-LITE. Path of Exile is proudly advertised as MMO and it's basically the same gameplay structure as Warframe. Shared hubs, instances of coop gameplay, where you don't meet other players. It's true, that Warframe uses p2p structre, which does cause a lot of issues, but that doesn't really change the true nature of the game.

[Quimoth]

25 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

But it wasn't. 

 

Solar rails says hi. DE tried. 

Solar rails were PvP content, the majority of the players simply didn't like the PvP content in warframe. Not to mention that the work that had to be put in to keep the PvP balanced was ever expanding.

If PvP is your end-game you are literally an even smaller minority than the elitists.

As for the there is no end-game. I actually didn't like some of the stuff DE did to make modes easier. Releasing new content that requires X experience with the game in general is frowned upon and causes outrage every time it happens.

Any mode that comes close to challenging often revolves around simply disabling the use of warframes, which again results in people complaining about not being able to use their fancy inaros, mesa or whatever cheesy warframe they have.

I like duviri, I liked the new war stuff. It required a different approach and brought me a little more back to the early days of warframe where stealth gameplay was still a thing. I don't need to tell you how the majority of people feel about these types of gameplay however. Same goes for forced coop gameplay with host-migration shenanigans or terrible RNG when the random people you get placed with are new/bad at the mode.

Before coop gameplay is a viable alternative DE would first have to drastically improve matchmaking and the coop experience in general. Only after such a thing has been done can coop be considered again for end-game.

There will always be outrage by people when new content X becomes to hard. The other day I was involved in a post about how we should be able to opt out of getting stalker as a playable warframe in duviri because he is to weak for circuit (he is not btw).

How exactly are eidolons not end-game right now? To me they are ridiculously tedious unless you dive deep into the meta and get involved with the toxic eidolon farming crowd. I can solo a tridolon, sure... but its simply tedious, even with my mech speeding stuff up.

I've done raids (trials w/e) back in the day, they were a pain to get into because not only did they require at least 4 people. The majority of people doing them wouldn't even care to help new players out, hence why it quickly became a small crowd doing that content and a totally reasonable thing to shut it down and focus on better content. What makes you think any new coop forced content won't result in some elitist meta fascist cult?

I'm all in for adding new challenging content, but not COOP based content. Any such content would immediately result in backlash from the majority of the community because for said content to be challenging you must NOT be able to play as a Warframe... which makes no sense when the game is named Warframe.

The more important question in general would be, what actually is endgame content for you? Challenging gameplay? Sorry wrong game, try another game.

[Felsagger]

5 minutes ago, Quimoth said:

Solar rails were PvP content.

Correction. PVP cooperative. 

5 minutes ago, Quimoth said:

the majority of the players simply didn't like the PvP content in warframe. Not to mention that the work that had to be put in to keep the PvP balanced was ever expanding.

True, the majority of players goes whiny crybaby when they get their ass spanked and tbagged properly. It's a game for average players that are addicted to a perpetual placebo comfort zone as I said before. DE understood that is the safest way of making their money. They will stay there for the rest of eternity despite if we like it or not. 

5 minutes ago, Quimoth said:

If PvP is your end-game you are literally an even smaller minority than the elitists.

Warframe community is the minority if we compare it with the size of CoD community and PvP games communities sizes in general. 

Life is full of ironies. 

[Felsagger]

44 minutes ago, Voltage said:

This isn't exactly true. While perfect efficiency would mean everyone executes performance without communication, you need to get to that point first which requires all that communication. There were also several objectives that no matter how good you were, you had to let your team know (either through text, voice, or waypoints) that you completed a step and the mission can proceed. Eidolons had this same dynamic early on.

You are correct though in the rest of what you said. The game is in a totally different era now than it was then. The "solo game with optional coop" used to be something to describe some of the game, but that some has turned into a majority.

Exactly. 

There is a learning curve that is required for automatized action/reaction dynamics. Players that are already experts understands what must be done without saying a single word. The process of learning of these players is completed. Learning requires communication on team oriented activities. 

[Silligoose]

9 hours ago, 4thBro said:

And by this, I mean, content with max level enemies, and rewards for being able to do this type of content.

 

I don't know if this is going to sound elitist of me... (which is generally the preface of elitist comments, but here we go)

But I get triggered when I see random people sweeping through an Arbitration with an Arca Plasmor, against Grineer (and we all know damn well it's like, pure viral or something), and they have 95% damage done and probably have ZERO survivability... but it's okay. Because it's just Arbies. Even though they were supposed to be hard content, endgame, etc... but they just aren't.

 

I get triggered when it's like... how do I even put it...

I spend so much time planning out my Frames to be able to not just KILL max level armored Grineer, but also be able to handle Corpus (nullifiers) as they are a whole other obstacle type, then also be able to SURVIVE these two factions (and this is relevant because of orokin faction maps), and I look around and it's just like... ... ...

There is NOWHERE to utilize this effort that I put in.

I look around, and it's just Arca Plasmor users (not always literally, but this gun is my meme example) sweeping through a room of Grineer, because everything is so low level that it doesn't matter if you build poorly or plan poorly.

 

Even in the highest starting level content, it's just, "Okay, we're staying 5 minutes then extracting." Because... well, why not, I guess?

And even for those that WANT to fight max level challenging content, NOBODY wants to sit in a game for LITERALLY EIGHT HOURS just to get to it. And then, there's not even a reward for it???

It's just so bizarre. And so frustrating for those that want to be an upper-end gamer. IS THAT ELITIST TO SAY? Honestly... I don't think so. I know many people will see it as such, but I'd have that debate with them.

 

If you want to play casually, nothing is stopping you from doing that.

However, if you want to play on a higher level, the game IS stopping you from doing that. And that's my focus here.

 

If you wanna sweep through low level Grineer with a poor gun choice just because you like it and it makes you feel good, by all means, do that.

But why can't people like me build smart, build strong, and then go test it out and get rewarded if it works?

 

Just ugh, dude.

I dunno. Whatevs, lol. Cheers!

I believe Warframe would benefit from having an actual endgame. I believe it would benefit from better balance as well. As far as I can tell, DE doesn't care about these things. They do not appear to care about the players who have been working towards attaining endgame power and do not appear interested in presenting something to meet that power. They don't even care enough about their players to have releases that addresses extremely blatant bugs. Just look at the state of Duviri approxiately 2 months after release!

Even in the rare instances in which they do seem to try and address endgame or address balance, they tend fail rather miserably (Archon Hunts, damage attenuation, Overguard, to name but a few examples).

It doesn't seem like these things are in the cards, with DE doubling down on the rather poor Duviri/Drifter offering.

Enjoy the game for what it is and keep fighting the good fight.

[Felsagger]

9 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I believe Warframe would benefit from having an actual endgame. I believe it would benefit from better balance as well. As far as I can tell, DE doesn't care about these things. They do not appear to care about the players who have been working towards attaining endgame power and do not appear interested in presenting something to meet that power. They don't even care enough about their players to have releases that addresses extremely blatant bugs. Just look at the state of Duviri approxiately 2 months after release!

Even in the rare instances in which they do seem to try and address endgame or address balance, they tend fail rather miserably (Archon Hunts, damage attenuation, Overguard, to name but a few examples).

It doesn't seem like these things are in the cards, with DE doubling down on the rather poor Duviri/Drifter offering.

Completely agree. 

 

9 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Enjoy the game for what it is and keep fighting the good fight.

Yes, picking other games that provides quality, delivery, replay value and support developers that deserves it for their delivery. There are a lot of indie developers that are exceptional. Sadly these get absorbed by AAA industries that publish RUBBISH. 

[Silligoose]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

Yes, picking other games that provides quality, delivery, replay value and support developers that deserves it for their delivery. There are a lot of indie developers that are exceptional. Sadly these get absorbed by AAA industries that publish RUBBISH. 

Indeed. That would help solve this issue we see in the gaming industry regarding these poor quality releases made available by AAA companies, but for whatever reason people are still stupid enough to pre-order games without any real reason to. They still support titles/companies despite the rushed content and lack of quality and as long as people continue to do that, the companies will continue to do what they do. 

I'm convinced part of the reason DE doesn't address a proper endgame, or doesn't address balance, or is more than happy to present heavily bugged content, is because they are still making money despite these qualities and when passion for the project is not a big factor (which seems to be the case), they'll continue with their modus operandi because, from a business standpoint, it works.

[CephalonCarnage]

4 hours ago, Raarsi said:

Also, this reminds me of when AotZ first came out and DE was going on about wanting harder content by ramping up the levels on the Zariman story missions....I think I nearly got whiplash from how fast they 180'd on that after the complaints.

so true. I think the problem is the loot aspect here, create a new game mode, put loot behind it, say "its for end game content" and then listen to a horde of whiny players demanding it be nerfed because their MR10 builds cannot do the content, but still really really want the loot. In a way, its the same with people complaining about Capture missions changing to exterminate - annoyed because they cannot grab the loot in less than a minute and repeat.

 

So get rid of the loot, create end-game content that challenges players and give them a different reason to play (besides it being what they asked for...) like leaderboards and bragging rights and youtube content. I'd say that means more Simaris, not more standard missions.

So ESO, only this time its ranked enemies in increasing levels, so you have a sanctuary with level 100 Grineer. Who can clear the map in the shortest time, or who can stay longest, or (which squad) can deal most damage per second etc (if you do individuals then you discourage team play and will get kill stealing whining).

Then do it again, level 200 enemies. Then l300 etc. Players can complete which set they can achieve, or test themselves against the ones that are too hard for them. No revives in this, its Simaris challenging you in his games. Then change it up, give the enemies double health, double armour or double damage modifiers. You can rotate these stats hourly or daily and show the leaderboards weekly (or monthly, probably be better).

This is different from the usual "end game" content because it has no loot, its pure challenge. That will keep the low level players away. If you want to give something to aim for to make players intrerested in playing it for greed reasons, then give away fashion, a sentinel skin or a glowing medal to wear to say "I'm special".

[(PSN)Unstar]

I think it's fine if players want to face stronger enemies to see just how far they can push their builds.  It would be nice if DE offered such players the ability to somehow tune the starting level of enemies in missions.

What I entirely disagree with is that players should be rewarded for this; that would be incredibly unhealthy for the game.  The instant rewards are offered for something, that content becomes not just a thing you can do, but a thing that players "should" do; see the history of Steel Path, which started out as something optional to appeal to players looking for more of a challenge, but meaningful rewards were added and now it's considered the baseline experience of what Warframe builds should be able to tackle.

I support your request for niche content that would bring you joy, but if the creation of that content would in any way pressure other players into doing that niche content, I would rather it not exist at all.

[Skoomaseller]

2 hours ago, Voltage said:

The game is still an online multiplayer coop game, but it's more of a solo game with social features now.

god I just can't agree more with this statement 

[Felsagger]

18 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Indeed. That would help solve this issue we see in the gaming industry regarding these poor quality releases made available by AAA companies, but for whatever reason people are still stupid enough to pre-order games without any real reason to. They still support titles/companies despite the rushed content and lack of quality and as long as people continue to do that, the companies will continue to do what they do. 

Exactly. 

The video game industry attracts a lot of morons and stupid individuals. The video game industry affects negatively the production of talented individuals. Yes this is a case by case argument that requires further analysis. In general the amount of next level dog feces on a bowl published by AAA developers is just staggering. The industry of cinematography became horse excrement. Star Wars, Predator, Halo series, MCU Franchise, Games of Thrones, Lord of the Rings series could be considered VHS dissected horse excrement up to E.T. levels. The same applies to video games such as 343i Halo Infinite and the abysmal launches of Cyberpunk 77 and Battlefield 2042. 

Stupid and morons ruins everything. These uncountable sets of lowlives destroys entire industries. Kathleen Kennedy and Bonnie Ross did irreparable damage to great franchises. Dumbass jackasses with lots of money ruins great works. These two in particular threw billions of dollars to waste. Even now there are rumors where Disney is selling these franchises because they are not making money. What happened? Stupid people took decisions. That's what happened. People forgot that writers matters. People forgot that generations of professors, intellectuals and specialists gave their lives for their crafts. 

I deeply hate morons and jackasses who paint themselves as lambs. These individuals are just thieves and opportunists who takes advantage of indigenous people. These individuals damaged the industry forever without the possibility of repair. It's sad because many industries are victimized by such outbreak. 

 

18 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

I'm convinced part of the reason DE doesn't address a proper endgame, or doesn't address balance, or is more than happy to present heavily bugged content, is because they are still making money despite these qualities and when passion for the project is not a big factor (which seems to be the case), they'll continue with their modus operandi because, from a business standpoint, it works.

DE doesnt care about it. Why? Because they are doing money with less. This is why I despise people who are satisfied with bread crumbs. I'm tempted to knock them out repeatedly and kick their skulls few times but that's not civilized, of course. Sometimes I'm tempted, believe me, sometimes I'm tempted. These players ruins games and throw entire franchises to the south. We can fight the good fight, if any, making people think. We can make changes if we teach people vote with their wallet properly. However that's a lost fight since the number of morons is uncountable. 

Should Warframe has endgame? Goose, we are too late for that. Way too late. We are heading towards the market of IOS phones. You exactly know what that means. 

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

god I just can't agree more with this statement 

You are NOT the only one. Believe me. 

 

What's the point of making an online game where people can play solo. THAT IS A PERFECT textbook OXYMORON right there. It's literally a solo game with social features. How paradoxical that could be is beyond me. 

[Skoomaseller]

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

It is important to note it always has been. Yes, Trials existed, but the amount of players who complete a trial was in the 1% range iirc. The meta for trials was learning to do your thing and not communicate with anyone. The game has always been a 'solo' game with potentially 3 people next to you. Eidolons followed but were fairly quickly categorized as "bad content" by the general community. The only time group content came up it was to trivialize/cheese some new event or grind.

 

The most social the game ever was (at a reasonable scale) was Scarlet Spear. That event threw a group of 100ish people into a single instance and said "work together to meet this goal." There might still be some recency bias for me (which is hilarious as SS is 3 years old now) but completing a Flotilla with seconds on the clock made me feel more than anything ever has in the game...

But the sentiment around SS was horrid. Outside the arcane rewards, it is likely the least liked event in the game's history. For me Scarlet Spear felt like a MMO world boss in the context of Warframe, 100 people working together to beat up this big baddie. But that's not how people (chose) to see it, all they saw was other people being a hurdle to them getting the rewards they wanted. And they are absolutely valid for it. I'm looking at an uphill battle trying to explain why limiting a players achievement based on 99 other strangers is better game design.

I liked what SS was, the rewards have nothing to do with my fond memories of the event, but I also understand that it doesn't represent the way people enjoy the game. And unlike most of the posters here I understand that. I don't think my opinion higher or mightier, I don't think I'm enlightened with "common sense" because I think more hardcore design is "better". I don't villizanize DE's action with malicious intent and try to spin up some "they only care about money" conspiracy. Warframe is a game many, many people enjoy for what it is. There are things that I still think it could expand into without alienating those who currently like it, I'm not simply content with the state of the game, but I also try to empathize with DE's intents and other people in the communities desires.

 

Also level cap content is bad content and should never be designed around or made featured content (Circuit doesn't really count because the power scaling in that mode is intentionally a meme). There are many more interesting ways to add challenge that aren't continuing to inflate numbers, schmuck enemies don't need to be "challenging" for content to be challenging.

now I wasn't around for ScSp, but weren't the poor connectivity issues dragging down the quality of the event?

or like are you saying that coupled with people just not finding the operation itself fun

[PublikDomain]

I see a lot of comments saying that "players don't want it", etc. And yet when polled, players report the opposite:

Spoiler

https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-136-overview

Maybe time has changed since 2019? Maybe now players don't want to play together in "forced cooperation" like Raids anymore? Nope, they report the opposite. Overwhelmingly so.

Spoiler

And DE says this out loud:

Quote

So What Happens Next?
Now that we have this information a few key things stick out to us.

• The Mod System could do with some TLC
• Players would like to see Trials come back, in addition to some more challenging end game content
• There are a variety of areas that we can explore for some QoL changes

But maybe these surveys aren't reflective of actual players? Maybe there's some shadow silent majority that doesn't do surveys that DE is tuned in to that actually wants no endgame at all? Except DE themselves are the ones constantly adding "harder" content throughout the years, whether its Sorties, Trials, Arbitrations, Eidolon Hunts, Orbs, Liches, SP, higher level zones like the Zariman, Conjunction Survival, Archon Hunts, or just a few months ago SP Circuit. Wasn't there also a recent devstream that briefly showed a 3rd map setting beyond SP?

I don't think "players don't want it" is grounded in any sort of reality. DE themselves say players want it, and DE themselves keep trying to implement it. They tend to fail, but it's not for lack of trying.

[Felsagger]

2 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

 

I don't think "players don't want it" is grounded in any sort of reality. DE themselves say players want it, and DE themselves keep trying to implement it. They tend to fail, but it's not for lack of trying.

You are right. 

DE DON"T KNOW how to provide difficult content that provides FUN and great boss fights. DE is centered on extrinsics not intrinsics. 

Period. 

 

 

[PublikDomain]

1 minute ago, Felsagger said:

You are right. 

DE DON"T KNOW how to provide difficult content that provides FUN and great boss fights. DE is centered on extrinsics not intrinsics. 

Period. 

 

 

I think it's not so much a "don't know how" and more of a "isn't worth going all the way". They can make good content, even content that offers some challenge, but there's so much in the game that undermines everything they do that any piece of content is ultimately going to fall apart no matter what. A lot of work needs to be done and a lot of hard decisions need to be made to untangle that so content can really succeed, and taking that risk probably isn't worth it financially. So we get cheap and easy attempts, like attenuation or gear RNG that tries to skirt around the issue.

[Grommile]

23 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

What's the point of making an online game where people can play solo.

The short, inaccurate-but-containing-a-kernel-of-truth answer is that in a pure PvE online game (like, say, Warframe), if people can't solo, then you tend to run out of new players.

[4thBro]

9 hours ago, BR31 said:

Sp disruption level cap is 2.5 h. Void cascade is a bit over an hour. Sp curcuit is about 1-1 20. Your 8 hours are outdated. Also endurance runs now get the most benefit ever (there's some debate about the old keys, but it was much more stationary). Sp fissures take a bit of time to get the maximum benefit, you stack with other multipliers. Sp farming on release was a bit better, but that's about it.   And your average arca user doesn't do any damage without a proper setup and is permanently dead in those settings Shruge. 

Interesting, thank you for this info. I'll check out Void Cascade. (Only breezed through it quickly on my first clear, lol.)

Now, does this apply to all of the Zariman areas, by any chance?

[4thBro]

5 hours ago, EDM774 said:

The main negative point I have towards this is that knowing DE they won't waste dev time just to please the 1% they'll try to put exclusive desirable rewards behind it which even the casuals WILL want.

Yeah, I know this. That's why, in my head (and admittedly not spoken out loud yet in this thread) I was more thinking that the rewards would be more of what everyone else can already get. Just... yeah, getting more of it.

 

We already have this, and I'm sure nobody complains. I play the Crystal Defense map (I forget the actual name) on Steel Path, and typically there aren't any open squads for it. But it's pretty easy, since... SP is easy... and, hey, I get like 20% more crystals with it! So that's nice. It's not a whole lot, and basically everyone just farms that map on Normal mode, but my friends and I have the option to utilize the fact that SP is just as easy as Normal mode to us, and we get +20% crystals! It's nice.

 

And that's all I want, really. Although this example is easy because it's just a random Steel Path map compared to its Normal counterpart, what I'm looking for is boosted rewards for building properly and being able to handle all foes. Because as it stands, I'm borderline being punished for building properly, instead of throwing on an Arca and making my arsenal damage number get as high as I can make it.

[(PSN)rexis12]

49 minutes ago, Grommile said:

The short, inaccurate-but-containing-a-kernel-of-truth answer is that in a pure PvE online game (like, say, Warframe), if people can't solo, then you tend to run out of new players.

At the very least, if DE truly wants to make or if the community wants Warframe to be a full co-op, they would need to have bots for solo players ala L4D where they function as competently as normal players.

An aspect that they hate, with how sometimes the Railjack Pilot work at times.

Otherwise you're going to have to explain to MR 2 Excal that he needs to play the Support Warframe to keep the team alive or else they're a throwing noob and... There goes the new Playerbase.

Seriously, whenever co-op comes I to question, people tend to forget that what making co-op focused content also involves locking in one player into a Support Role. Something that you can see in most other games players don't really want to play as the babysitter to the team, and is also something that DE has continuously discouraged with the simple fact that normal objectives get a pitiful 100 HP/s heal, on Warframes that can heal much more than that.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

12 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

This community will never be satisfied.

Maybe if they rework Revenant. Like, maybe it won’t work, but it also might. They won’t know unless they try.