Why Warframe is declining, and people quit for boredom.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

16 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

The only data we have from other platforms are achievements polled from visible profiles by aggregate sites, but they show the same kinds of trends as on Steam. Similar numbers of players drop off or give up before reaching the various milestone achievements, etc. People aren't all that different.

Achievements for a game that anyone can download free to see if they like it and potentially dropping it immediately when it's something they don't like. 

Maybe all platforms are in the same numbers but that's just assumption, claiming the game is dying and using only steam as an argument is weak. 

[PublikDomain]

45 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

claiming the game is dying and using only steam as an argument is weak. 

I never said it wasn't. The game's not dying and even the Steam numbers don't show that, at worst you could say that the game is stagnating. But Steam numbers aren't unusable or meaningless and you can make a good assumption that, unless an Xbox/PlayStation/Switch/Epic/standalone launcher changes human brain chemistry in some way that has yet to be explained, the platform you play on isn't going to change much. You get the same amount of content regardless of launcher.

44 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Achievements for a game that anyone can download free to see if they like it and potentially dropping it immediately when it's something they don't like.

Are Xbox and PSN players unable to drop the game after downloading it like Steam players or something? Players on all platforms can drop the game, and many do. So...? The ones that don't are still getting achievements at similar rates.

53 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Maybe all platforms are in the same numbers but that's just assumption,

Well it's an assumption you can check against published data so... 🤷‍♀️

[Crabopoulos-Michael]

Lol, the game is dying since I joined like 5 years ago. From a commercial standpoint I would say they just need to focus in acquisition. With the amount of content the game already has, new players have a bunch of hours ahead of them guaranteed and that's where the big profit is imo. If the players that join today open threads like this in 5 years then DE has already won.

[Surbusken]

Heheh, at the end of the day what matters is how much money they make.

Of course you could spectulate if the numbers drop, less money will be spent but the steam numbers don't look that different from previous years.

 

... which isn't to say gameplay criticism is more or less relevant either way for that reason.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

I never said it wasn't. The game's not dying and even the Steam numbers don't show that, at worst you could say that the game is stagnating. But Steam numbers aren't unusable or meaningless and you can make a good assumption that, unless an Xbox/PlayStation/Switch/Epic/standalone launcher changes human brain chemistry in some way that has yet to be explained, the platform you play on isn't going to change much. You get the same amount of content regardless of launcher.

The thing is the Steam number are meaningless overall because the people that use them often also compare WF numbers to other games on Steam, while neglecting what was pointed out in this thread, that WF is not only available on Steam, but have so many different launcher options. How many times have we not seen Destiny 2 brought up as doing much better since it has higher numbers on Steam? A game only available through Steam when it comes to PC, so doesnt compete with itself when it comes to showing numbers.

Steam numbers work well aslong as people dont start using other games as examples of doing "good" or "bad", but the moment someone starts to bring another game into the discussion it becomes pointless since we dont have access to anything but Steam for WF. And they also only work when people actually understand the nature of GAAS games, F2P at that, and the trends around how players use them during and after updates. Which is something most players dont understand. Heck, several players have a hard time grasping what avarage/concurrent players are aswell, and think it is the same as the total number playing the game.

Like with most things in the world, people should educate themselves before speaking up. Otherwise we get doom and gloomers going bla-bla-bla Greta style without the actual knowledge about the subject and how it can be changed into something better.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

Generic warframe is dying thread #5284

[motorfirebox]

Warframe is not declining.

[motorfirebox]

On 2023-07-14 at 5:10 AM, SovietSilviu said:

Steam charts seems to disagree with you 20.10% of people stoped playng in june (a litle over 11k players it seems), and the trend continue downwards here take a look, there was the decline the hype about duvri, the realization its same crap again and now the decline back. 

https://steamcharts.com/app/230410

Dude. Look at the entire chart. Warframe is a game with significant fluctuation in the playerbase. A one month decline is meaningless; that one month decline comes after a high that the game hadn't seen since late 2021—a high that was, unlike most of the other new release spikes, was actually maintained for a full month and is only dropping off gradually rather than spiking right back down.

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

The thing is the Steam number are meaningless overall because the people that use them often also compare WF numbers to other games on Steam, while neglecting what was pointed out in this thread, that WF is not only available on Steam, but have so many different launcher options. How many times have we not seen Destiny 2 brought up as doing much better since it has higher numbers on Steam? A game only available through Steam when it comes to PC, so doesnt compete with itself when it comes to showing numbers.

Steam numbers work well aslong as people dont start using other games as examples of doing "good" or "bad", but the moment someone starts to bring another game into the discussion it becomes pointless since we dont have access to anything but Steam for WF. And they also only work when people actually understand the nature of GAAS games, F2P at that, and the trends around how players use them during and after updates. Which is something most players dont understand. Heck, several players have a hard time grasping what avarage/concurrent players are aswell, and think it is the same as the total number playing the game.

Like with most things in the world, people should educate themselves before speaking up. Otherwise we get doom and gloomers going bla-bla-bla Greta style without the actual knowledge about the subject and how it can be changed into something better.

Is Warframe the only GAAS out there? Is Warframe the only game available on multiple platforms? Are no other games offered on both EGS and Steam? Yes, Warframe is offered on more than just Steam. So are a bunch of games! There are plenty of examples to compare to as long as you understand what you're looking at and compare in a way that makes sense. Nothing about Warframe's distribution is unique or shields it from comparison, and nothing about Steam's numbers are meaningless by default.

Though yes, comparing absolutes isn't very useful. Like it doesn't matter if Destiny pulled 135k average CCU in March, and comparing that to Warframe's 40k would be pointless. What's worth comparing is how their CCUs change over time compared to how Warframe's change over time. For example, you can look at Destiny's huge seasonal swings and see that their playerbase gets bored and leaves a few months after a big update just like ours, just their migrations are much larger (in both an absolute and a relative sense). It's almost like both games are the same kind of F2P GAAS game available on multiple platforms with the same kind of release patterns? There are common trends and you can look at them to compare games without issue.

The Fudd lore and denialism surrounding Steam's statistics are just that.

[MekaDovah]

Guess "dead game" spam isn't limited to Steam forums.

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Is Warframe the only GAAS out there? Is Warframe the only game available on multiple platforms? Are no other games offered on both EGS and Steam? Yes, Warframe is offered on more than just Steam. So are a bunch of games! There are plenty of examples to compare to as long as you understand what you're looking at and compare in a way that makes sense. Nothing about Warframe's distribution is unique or shields it from comparison, and nothing about Steam's numbers are meaningless by default.

Though yes, comparing absolutes isn't very useful. Like it doesn't matter if Destiny pulled 135k average CCU in March, and comparing that to Warframe's 40k would be pointless. What's worth comparing is how their CCUs change over time compared to how Warframe's change over time. For example, you can look at Destiny's huge seasonal swings and see that their playerbase gets bored and leaves a few months after a big update just like ours, just their migrations are much larger (in both an absolute and a relative sense). It's almost like both games are the same kind of F2P GAAS game available on multiple platforms with the same kind of release patterns? There are common trends and you can look at them to compare games without issue.

The Fudd lore and denialism surrounding Steam's statistics are just that.

Nope and that isnt what I'm saying. The example of Destiny for instance was due to the fact it has been used over and over while available only through Steam as some form of comparison for WFs success or lack there of. Now with it in EGS aswell and on the game pass iirc it is more comparable. But even then it is a bad comparison to use due to a vastly different monetization model aswell as rules regarding DLC purchases etc depending on the "platform". For instance, the usage of other PC launcher options for Destiny is likely very small due to how the DLCs work, you need to own them on the launcher you wanna play the game from. So someone transitioning from Steam to Epic, or to M$-store is small, since the players that played it on BattleNet and then on Steam have already invested actual money in the game, things they own on the Steam "platform" but would need to rebuy on Epic or M$. Unless that has changed aswell, which imo it should. Same reason why it is a mess playing GW2 (and some other games) on Steam, since you need to buy the DLCs all over again if you played elsewhere already.

And no one argued that we cannot see trends from Steam charts. I simply pointed out that doing it in comparison to another game doesnt work, since each game is unique. That Destiny and WF both have dips and gains based on releases is just common sense, since they are GAAS games, but comparing the two to eachother is where the problems start to arise, since the two tell us nothing of the other really. It's as if we should compare PoE to WF and say PoE does much worse due to far lower numbers in between updates, it wouldnt work or give any valueble info, since even though PoE is a GAAS F2P game, it has a completely different playerbase and seasonal structure.

edit: A thing to actually look at is also how long a game has been available on a "platform". For instance, WF has been available as SA and on Steam since release more or less. So expecting one to be vastly bigger than the other doesnt really work either. I'll give PoE as an example here, a game that was also available on both since release more or less. It took GGG about 5 years to get a 50/50 split between SA and Steam users, with SA being ahead for those 5 years.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

On 2023-07-13 at 2:19 AM, Turboameeba said:

Something needs to be done to all these piling issues that already exist in the game. We have Kuva Siphons, Nightmare Missions, Syndicate missions.. game modes on top of game modes that are unpopulated, and empty. Dont get me started with all the UI issues, and inventory management. That is a whole another topic, that has been an issue for long time. They keep making new exciting content they enjoy making, instead of making sure the core game is good. Warframe does not have endgame content.. Yet majority of the community are this type of players, who play for hours every single day.

 

They simply have to start doing something about already existing things in the game, or this game is gonna keep going down. People simply leave Warframe FOR GETTING BORED!!! That is the worst possible reason someone would quit your game for.. Even this new Duviri feels lifeless and boring. It is nothing but a mandatory thing you have to grind, in order to get your gear. Nobody plays it for fun, except maybe some nieche Circuit groups.

 

Something needs to be done. Whether Digital Extremes likes it or not.. The community are on Steel Path level of power, and require enough content to last 24/7 without getting bored. A good place to start would be dedicating some time to look into already existing systems in the game...

 

How about bringing Nightmare missions to Steel Path? Those would be fun. SP players do SP mostly cause killing thigns there actually feels more meaningful. Nightmares would introduce more ways to enjoy challenge, and do obscure builds.

 

Kuva Siphons in SP would be a great way to give some variety to all the Arbitration farmers, who spent endless hours in Arbi farming essences jsut to roll their rivens. Even if Siphons gave less Kuva, I would still run them for fun purposes in Steel Path

 

Syndicate missions are useless now. People simply just craft their Dojo resources, and nobody runs Syndicate missions unless there's good rewards.

 

Events are boring in modern Warframe standards. Nobody does these for fun neither. They are simply something you have to do, if you want some specific loot from them.

 

Where has all the fun gone? Why do we still have these unpopulated dying game modes in the game, after we have asked something to be done for a loooooong time

 

Please do better. It is far more important making sure the core game is good, before you start making new content, just because you enjoy doing it.

I think what needs to be done is for you to either learn the game more, improve your understanding of all of the frames and ideal use cases...or a combination of all of those things.

OP...Nevermind dude. You guys always say the same misguided things. I haven't even gone through this thread but I bet my house that theirs a stream numbers dude in this thread and an vet player who still says the game is dying..........again. SMH 

[Vaml77]

I believe that many managed to reach nightwave level 30...so it's natural to have fewer players. And warframe is not meant to be played all the time....i play different games like grim dawn, fallout 3, resident evil series. Playing only one game is not healthy at all.

[RoninFive]

5 hours ago, Vaml77 said:

I believe that many managed to reach nightwave level 30...so it's natural to have fewer players. And warframe is not meant to be played all the time....i play different games like grim dawn, fallout 3, resident evil series. Playing only one game is not healthy at all.

It isn't, but I've been away from the game for about a year now and I barely have anything to do in it. I can farm some of the things I never got like the tenet weapons and a few kuva ones. It's not particularly engaging content. I could do duviri bounties but the mechanics for them are never explained. You hit an enemy and it doesn't take damage, you chase the orowyrm but can't reach it, etc. Going with a group would probably solve that except then I'd be getting carried, and that's not exactly "me" playing the game.

[Vaml77]

10 minutes ago, RoninFive said:

It isn't, but I've been away from the game for about a year now and I barely have anything to do in it. I can farm some of the things I never got like the tenet weapons and a few kuva ones. It's not particularly engaging content. I could do duviri bounties but the mechanics for them are never explained. You hit an enemy and it doesn't take damage, you chase the orowyrm but can't reach it, etc. Going with a group would probably solve that except then I'd be getting carried, and that's not exactly "me" playing the game.

unfortunately it's a game that we only learn by watching videos of how to do things in the game. Warframe never taught anything...it was always obscure in that sense...unfortunately.

If the next DE game follows the same concept it will be a failure.

[RoninFive]

12 minutes ago, Vaml77 said:

unfortunately it's a game that we only learn by watching videos of how to do things in the game. Warframe never taught anything...it was always obscure in that sense...unfortunately.

If the next DE game follows the same concept it will be a failure.

Nah, there are tutorials about plenty of things, and if there aren't, they're fairly obvious, or not mandatory. The tutorials are usually in the form of a quest, or by Lotus, Ordis, or some other character, telling us how to do something in a transmission. That's completely absent in Duviri - we could have the old guy (not naming because spoilers) tell us how to do things. He IS the teacher type after all.

[PublikDomain]

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

But even then it is a bad comparison to use due to a vastly different monetization model aswell as rules regarding DLC purchases etc depending on the "platform". For instance, the usage of other PC launcher options for Destiny is likely very small due to how the DLCs work, you need to own them on the launcher you wanna play the game from. So someone transitioning from Steam to Epic, or to M$-store is small, since the players that played it on BattleNet and then on Steam have already invested actual money in the game, things they own on the Steam "platform" but would need to rebuy on Epic or M$.

How is that any different than being platform-locked because you play Warframe on Xbox or Switch? If you have an Xbox account and have invested money on cosmetics you would need to rebuy it on PC or any other platform. And the usage of other PC launcher options for Warframe is also likely very small due to non-Steam PC platforms not having TennoGen. Same thing.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It's as if we should compare PoE to WF and say PoE does much worse due to far lower numbers in between updates, it wouldnt work or give any valueble info, since even though PoE is a GAAS F2P game, it has a completely different playerbase and seasonal structure.

But what you say here is kind of exactly why it's possible (and sometimes valuable) to compare games. If PoE is doing something successful (or unsuccessful) and the numbers back that up, then it's a good thing to look at and compare to. If Destiny's sunsetting program or DLC structure is leading to lots of people dropping the game, maybe doing the same thing here wouldn't be a great idea? If PoE sees a large number of its players disappear between seasons, maybe a tight seasonal schedule isn't a good idea? If a bunch of games follow the same pattern, maybe that's something to take note of instead of pretending not to notice? For example:

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Unless that has changed aswell, which imo it should.

Do you think this DLC structure should be attempted in Warframe? If you're not allowed to compare to other games how would you have any point of reference?

[JustinJustinJustinJustin]

OP maybe try posting this discussion on the reddit, Your hardly gonna get reasonable discussion here since the vast majority of the forums are people who love this game and will try to defend it even if this game does have some problems, ie boss design being just stacking invulnerability phases or the mountain of depreciated content, ie lunaro, conclave, the entirety of railjack, archwing, khal missions etc

I enjoy this game but it does have problems.

[L3512]

As a resource, this is much better than simple steam charts.

https://steamdb.info

Of interest is the Twitch views during Tennocon, as Twitch is the only way to claim semi-unique rewards regardless of how one logs in.

While I would hardly argue that the seeming player stagnation is a good thing, that doesn't really indicate an unhealthy state of income. 

[Marvelous_A]

47 minutes ago, (NSW)Justarius said:

OP maybe try posting this discussion on the reddit, Your hardly gonna get reasonable discussion here since the vast majority of the forums are people who love this game and will try to defend it even if this game does have some problems, ie boss design being just stacking invulnerability phases or the mountain of depreciated content, ie lunaro, conclave, the entirety of railjack, archwing, khal missions etc

I enjoy this game but it does have problems.

OP didn't get flamed for posting negative feedback tho. He got flamed because he used clickbait title that's statistically not true.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Justarius said:

OP maybe try posting this discussion on the reddit, Your hardly gonna get reasonable discussion here since the vast majority of the forums are people who love this game and will try to defend it even if this game does have some problems, ie boss design being just stacking invulnerability phases or the mountain of depreciated content, ie lunaro, conclave, the entirety of railjack, archwing, khal missions etc

I enjoy this game but it does have problems.

Not that its important to this thread but I find reddit is so much worse when it comes to criticism of each sub reddit. In particular the Warframe reddit is terrible for that.

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, Marvelous_A said:

OP didn't get flamed for posting negative feedback tho. He got flamed because he used clickbait title that's statistically not true.

I've been watching this thread evolve, marinade in band-wagoning. Which part was statistically not true?

[rodrigerzZ]

Am 13.7.2023 um 11:19 schrieb Turboameeba:

Something needs to be done to all these piling issues that already exist in the game. We have Kuva Siphons, Nightmare Missions, Syndicate missions.. game modes on top of game modes that are unpopulated, and empty. Dont get me started with all the UI issues, and inventory management. That is a whole another topic, that has been an issue for long time. They keep making new exciting content they enjoy making, instead of making sure the core game is good. Warframe does not have endgame content.. Yet majority of the community are this type of players, who play for hours every single day.

 

They simply have to start doing something about already existing things in the game, or this game is gonna keep going down. People simply leave Warframe FOR GETTING BORED!!! That is the worst possible reason someone would quit your game for.. Even this new Duviri feels lifeless and boring. It is nothing but a mandatory thing you have to grind, in order to get your gear. Nobody plays it for fun, except maybe some nieche Circuit groups.

 

Something needs to be done. Whether Digital Extremes likes it or not.. The community are on Steel Path level of power, and require enough content to last 24/7 without getting bored. A good place to start would be dedicating some time to look into already existing systems in the game...

 

How about bringing Nightmare missions to Steel Path? Those would be fun. SP players do SP mostly cause killing thigns there actually feels more meaningful. Nightmares would introduce more ways to enjoy challenge, and do obscure builds.

 

Kuva Siphons in SP would be a great way to give some variety to all the Arbitration farmers, who spent endless hours in Arbi farming essences jsut to roll their rivens. Even if Siphons gave less Kuva, I would still run them for fun purposes in Steel Path

 

Syndicate missions are useless now. People simply just craft their Dojo resources, and nobody runs Syndicate missions unless there's good rewards.

 

Events are boring in modern Warframe standards. Nobody does these for fun neither. They are simply something you have to do, if you want some specific loot from them.

 

Where has all the fun gone? Why do we still have these unpopulated dying game modes in the game, after we have asked something to be done for a loooooong time

 

Please do better. It is far more important making sure the core game is good, before you start making new content, just because you enjoy doing it.

you can revive the game very easily. however, we finally need REAL warframe content. and you can distribute items, mods, cosmetics, etc. in bounties or missions. and allow new modifications or improvements for weapons. similar to railjack with 3 mod tabs!
actually a lot is possible here!

but the reason why i don't want to play for many months:
some brainless nonsense is developed for grandmas and the whole progress was reset there! WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?
and aoe guns are still an awkward joke with ammo changes....

and when someone tells me that these current "devs" listen to community, I can't even laugh!

we tried to make the game better. but if EVERYTHING IS IGNORED...

 

[SneakyErvin]

7 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

How is that any different than being platform-locked because you play Warframe on Xbox or Switch? If you have an Xbox account and have invested money on cosmetics you would need to rebuy it on PC or any other platform. And the usage of other PC launcher options for Warframe is also likely very small due to non-Steam PC platforms not having TennoGen. Same thing.

But what you say here is kind of exactly why it's possible (and sometimes valuable) to compare games. If PoE is doing something successful (or unsuccessful) and the numbers back that up, then it's a good thing to look at and compare to. If Destiny's sunsetting program or DLC structure is leading to lots of people dropping the game, maybe doing the same thing here wouldn't be a great idea? If PoE sees a large number of its players disappear between seasons, maybe a tight seasonal schedule isn't a good idea? If a bunch of games follow the same pattern, maybe that's something to take note of instead of pretending not to notice? For example:

Do you think this DLC structure should be attempted in Warframe? If you're not allowed to compare to other games how would you have any point of reference?

How it is different? We are talking "platforms" here as in inter-PC launcher options, not platforms overall which includes consoles. And regarding Tennogen, you arent locked to Steam by purchasing tennogen.

Not really the comparison I'm talking about, since at that point people need to be even more invested in understanding the stats they are looking at, which was the thing I pointed out, that most players have no actual clue what it is they are looking at. Not only that, they need to grasp the concept of how monetization might differ between the games they compare and how the gameplay and the loop tied to it is different. Whatever turns popular or not within a game is often isolated to that specific game unless the game is very similar to another. PoE, Destiny 2 and WF are similar in that we farm loot and kill things, outside of that, whatever is successful in one game is likely not a recipe for success in another.

As to adopting say the DLC method of Destiny 2 in WF. It would likely have even more negative effect on WF since it would suddenly turn a F2P game into B2P after 10+ years. Since there is no denying that Destiny 2 is effectively a B2P game, calling it F2P is like calling WoW, GW2 and ESO F2P. Sure you can start playing them for free, but you will get nowhere without paying constantly since all content that allows you to progress is locked behind DLCs and/or subscriptions.

 

[-Krism-]

2 hours ago, Silligoose said:

I've been watching this thread evolve, marinade in band-wagoning. Which part was statistically not true?

If you're asking this question, it means you haven't really been watching what's going on here