Nihil fight

[CephalonCarnage]

The Nihil fight is back in the player perception and while I don't want to go over how to do it, I did think its caused so much issues we should try to analyse why it is a troublesome thing.

I fought this as one of my first warframe battles and it was hard. I was not used to aim gliding and the other parkour stuff, but even now years later I still found it annoying.

the battle itself is pretty simple:

• Nihil chucks glass grenades at you, you pick them up and chuck them at the appropriate memory crystal, to break it to remove his immunity and then pick them up to chuck at him instead. Easy!

Except: the mechanic is complicated with Nihil's attacks, the limited platform space, the projectile arcs, and the usual lack of instruction.

I think by themselves these are not problems, but together they add up to being bad, Nihil's attacks are well telegraphed and this is fine, but if you are trying to figure out which crystal is the right one you won't be looking at him, and if you look at him, you can very easily lose track of the right crystal. Similarly, the platform space is a right old pain as it gets destroyed, and on top you're having to parkour everywhere (which is again, something you do without being able to see what Nihil is doing for when you land)

 

So a suggestion to improve the fight is to remove this 2-things-at-once aspect.

• In the first part of each phase, when you're supposed to be remembering which crystal is the right one, Nihil should only throw his glass grenades at you. This would allow you to focus more on them and not getting one-shot killed. It would also retain much more of the platform area for later. (If this is too easy, then it is possible to add threat to this hunt-the-crystal by making the grenades go off in your hand if you hold them too long, doing HP damage, or for Nihil to only attack while you're holding a grenade)
• After you break the crystal, then you fight Nihil with his glass bombs and his big sword attacks.

This change would mean you can focus on what is important in the fight at the time. You still have to dodge, parkour and throw but now you have much more leeway in doing it. For many players who are more casual, I think this would improve the fight dramatically. Obviously giving Nora or Ordis lines to tell the player to pick up the glass (or run over them to collect them, a mechanic not often used elsewhere in the game - consistency is important if you don't want to explain what to do every time) and chuck it would help a lot.

 

I think this is more important for future fights though, DE made this one annoyingly bad because of the interaction between what you had to do at any given time, and other stuff happening behind you. With that stuff being an insta-kill mechanism, it combines to form a perfect failure.

[Slayer-.]

23 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

The Nihil fight is back in the player perception and while I don't want to go over how to do it, I did think its caused so much issues we should try to analyse why it is a troublesome thing.

I fought this as one of my first warframe battles and it was hard. I was not used to aim gliding and the other parkour stuff, but even now years later I still found it annoying.

the battle itself is pretty simple:

• Nihil chucks glass grenades at you, you pick them up and chuck them at the appropriate memory crystal, to break it to remove his immunity and then pick them up to chuck at him instead. Easy!

Except: the mechanic is complicated with Nihil's attacks, the limited platform space, the projectile arcs, and the usual lack of instruction.

I think by themselves these are not problems, but together they add up to being bad, Nihil's attacks are well telegraphed and this is fine, but if you are trying to figure out which crystal is the right one you won't be looking at him, and if you look at him, you can very easily lose track of the right crystal. Similarly, the platform space is a right old pain as it gets destroyed, and on top you're having to parkour everywhere (which is again, something you do without being able to see what Nihil is doing for when you land)

 

So a suggestion to improve the fight is to remove this 2-things-at-once aspect.

• In the first part of each phase, when you're supposed to be remembering which crystal is the right one, Nihil should only throw his glass grenades at you. This would allow you to focus more on them and not getting one-shot killed. It would also retain much more of the platform area for later. (If this is too easy, then it is possible to add threat to this hunt-the-crystal by making the grenades go off in your hand if you hold them too long, doing HP damage, or for Nihil to only attack while you're holding a grenade)
• After you break the crystal, then you fight Nihil with his glass bombs and his big sword attacks.

This change would mean you can focus on what is important in the fight at the time. You still have to dodge, parkour and throw but now you have much more leeway in doing it. For many players who are more casual, I think this would improve the fight dramatically. Obviously giving Nora or Ordis lines to tell the player to pick up the glass (or run over them to collect them, a mechanic not often used elsewhere in the game - consistency is important if you don't want to explain what to do every time) and chuck it would help a lot.

 

I think this is more important for future fights though, DE made this one annoyingly bad because of the interaction between what you had to do at any given time, and other stuff happening behind you. With that stuff being an insta-kill mechanism, it combines to form a perfect failure.

They do go off in your hand if you hold them too long.

Unless you're a person with a disability or very uncoordinated then I don't see the problem with the fight other than players saying it's too hard and too boring, for that would be very true, my perception of the fight as an old fart of 58 years old I personally find the fight easy, I don't analyse it I just go in there and do what's needed to win.

I doubt DE would want to change it in any foreseeable future it's been around a long time now and it's a very old fight that would get changed.

They were going to make the Sergeant fight harder but it's never happened, as a boutique fight like Nihils is I'd say at a guess it won't change either.

[Metalgearfox]

3 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

So a suggestion to improve the fight is to remove this 2-things-at-once aspect.

You might as well just add a "skip" button.

It's already an easy mario 64 boss. If you make it easier, it might as well be optional. 

[_Anise_]

I completed it, and when it was new fight too, I didn't even know about the order, I guess he can break his own crystals

[quxier]

8 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

Obviously giving Nora or Ordis lines to tell the player to pick up the glass

NO.... NO...STOP with that. When doing some mission e.g. fissure you get things like:

- Hey this is fissure and there are some angry guys - can you survive

- hey pick this

- hey it works

- hey there is guy that you need to catch

- hey it's target is dying

- hey BLALBLLBLBALAJBLKAJDSLKFJSDLKFSDKFJL

- hey you opened the relic

- hey, I made a cake for you

This is horrible. Not only it plays sounds (which you can turn off BUT for all transmission) but shows moving image. When I play those mission X times I feel like not playing at all. I feel like getting high 5, in the face, with the chair.

 

Here is golden rule; Show don't tell. I've not been fighting Nihil for long time so I've forgotten most of it. So, there is big guy throwing pickable stuff? Ok, I've tried to pick it and throw it many times. Do I get good throw (e.g. miss the target)? Or should I shoot something else? I throw it at missing crystal and after few times his hp gets red (aka hitable, like lot of enemies). Repeat few times & get better and I've beaten Nihil. No need for single word from Lotus or Nora.... glaaaasss resonance... ugh...

 

If you need any help just slap short info somewhere (e.g. codex).

8 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

I think this is more important for future fights though, DE made this one annoyingly bad because of the interaction between what you had to do at any given time, and other stuff happening behind you. With that stuff being an insta-kill mechanism, it combines to form a perfect failure.

When You get insta killed? Inaros? Nidus?

Seriously, it has flaws (e.g. sometimes there is no platform so you have to fall) but even with slowness I manage to avoid attacks.

8 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

They were going to make the Sergeant fight harder but it's never happened, as a boutique fight like Nihils is I'd say at a guess it won't change either.

They haven't changed it so there is still easy way to do 3x Assassination task. :D

2 hours ago, _Anise_ said:

I completed it, and when it was new fight too, I didn't even know about the order, I guess he can break his own crystals

Or you throw it at random crystal? I used to do like this because It's harder for me to see on my "small screen".

[Pakaku]

9 hours ago, CephalonCarnage said:

I think by themselves these are not problems, but together they add up to being bad, Nihil's attacks are well telegraphed and this is fine, but if you are trying to figure out which crystal is the right one you won't be looking at him, and if you look at him, you can very easily lose track of the right crystal.

There's nothing to figure out if you break each one, and there's no risk of getting hit if you jump away from the platform Nihil is focused on.

[CephalonCarnage]

6 minutes ago, quxier said:

Here is golden rule; Show don't tell. I've not been fighting Nihil for long time so I've forgotten most of it. So, there is big guy throwing pickable stuff? Ok, I've tried to pick it and throw it many times

no, you haven't. The "pickable stuff" is somethign that disappears when you run over it. its not like a canister you can pick up with an X on it when you get close (obvious show not tell) but in this case its different to what you expect from other gameplay - so what do you do if you run to a thing and it just disappears? Assume you've picked it up and now need to throw it? You only know to chuck the "magically disappearing thing" that because you read it in the wiki.

If that's the mechanic they put in, then they need to also explain it in some way.

8 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

and there's no risk of getting hit if you jump away from the platform Nihil is focused on.

if he does his horizontal swing, you die unless you jump up. If he's swinging vertically, you die unless you jump away. if you're unlucky and jump off, he can still get you swinging vertically (happened to me, I was not expecting that but not surprised either)

[TimTechDude]

Ridiculous crappy fight. Throw grenades miss 90% of the time. The left vertical swing cannot be dodged. Don't have enough revives for this S#&$.

[Pakaku]

19 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

if he does his horizontal swing, you die unless you jump up. If he's swinging vertically, you die unless you jump away. if you're unlucky and jump off, he can still get you swinging vertically (happened to me, I was not expecting that but not surprised either)

What I mean is jumping off of the platform and going to a different set. Nihil doesn't move around much, he'll always be "attached" to one platform, and his sword can only attack that area until he moves to another platform.

[quxier]

23 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

34 minutes ago, quxier said:

Here is golden rule; Show don't tell. I've not been fighting Nihil for long time so I've forgotten most of it. So, there is big guy throwing pickable stuff? Ok, I've tried to pick it and throw it many times

no, you haven't.

Yes, I've tried it many times. Main reason is that I wasn't in "10000% gamer mode" (I'm not "pro gamer" to begin with). I just took it slowly and think "oh, can I do this...hmm...".

26 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

The "pickable stuff" is somethign that disappears when you run over it.

Hmm... I haven't seen that disappearance. Not saying that you are lying. When I avoid "freezing crystal shoot" I get near "pickable stuff". I just turn ~180 degree, pick it and try to shoot at stuff (crystal or Nihil).

28 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

but in this case its different to what you expect from other gameplay - so what do you do if you run to a thing and it just disappears? Assume you've picked it up and now need to throw it? You only know to chuck the "magically disappearing thing" that because you read it in the wiki.

I've not read any wiki prior to fight. I run 2-3 fights. One fight NIhil destroyed lot of platforms (I've put loading game and I have done something else, while game were running) so I just restarted.

31 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

If that's the mechanic they put in, then they need to also explain it in some way.

Do they have to explain everything? Like, you have few lives, so you can experiment a lot. 1st phase is "easy" mode so you get the mechanic.

I have to check the fights tomorrow to make sure but I don't find the need to explain anything.

33 minutes ago, CephalonCarnage said:

42 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

and there's no risk of getting hit if you jump away from the platform Nihil is focused on.

if he does his horizontal swing, you die unless you jump up. If he's swinging vertically, you die unless you jump away.

Do you get hit a lot? Have you tried regen your shield for shield gate? I honestly don't get 1hit-ko a lot. When I die I either do some "mess up stuff" or just some very unlucky situation.

26 minutes ago, TimTechDude said:

The left vertical swing cannot be dodged.

Not sure about your key config but on my pc "space" is used to jump. You can jump to avoid vertical swing.

 

[TimTechDude]

Space bar for horizonal attack. For the other attack, I just jumped off the platform to avoid.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

yeah, i'm hoping they don't bother bringing this fight back again, it's really not worth all the salt it causes, so it should just be like Nihil himself and be forever trapped in a void where it can never be freed.

to think, some people want DE to bring raids back when their "alternative" boss fights can look like this.. crazy.

[Slayer-.]

10 hours ago, quxier said:

Spoiler

NO.... NO...STOP with that. When doing some mission e.g. fissure you get things like:

- Hey this is fissure and there are some angry guys - can you survive

- hey pick this

- hey it works

- hey there is guy that you need to catch

- hey it's target is dying

- hey BLALBLLBLBALAJBLKAJDSLKFJSDLKFSDKFJL

- hey you opened the relic

- hey, I made a cake for you

This is horrible. Not only it plays sounds (which you can turn off BUT for all transmission) but shows moving image. When I play those mission X times I feel like not playing at all. I feel like getting high 5, in the face, with the chair.

 

Here is golden rule; Show don't tell. I've not been fighting Nihil for long time so I've forgotten most of it. So, there is big guy throwing pickable stuff? Ok, I've tried to pick it and throw it many times. Do I get good throw (e.g. miss the target)? Or should I shoot something else? I throw it at missing crystal and after few times his hp gets red (aka hitable, like lot of enemies). Repeat few times & get better and I've beaten Nihil. No need for single word from Lotus or Nora.... glaaaasss resonance... ugh...

 

If you need any help just slap short info somewhere (e.g. codex).

When You get insta killed? Inaros? Nidus?

Seriously, it has flaws (e.g. sometimes there is no platform so you have to fall) but even with slowness I manage to avoid attacks.

They haven't changed it so there is still easy way to do 3x Assassination task. :D

 

It's where I do my three all the time, guess they'll change it one day to do three different Assassination tasks.

Every other able body player, cry me a river and get over it, learn to adapt. _{^{There I said it.}}

[--Leyenda-yight6]

If it wasn't for the sergeant and the phorid, I'd say nihil is the easiest boss I've ever faced in a video game. He only has 3 different attacks and the only thing that seems vulnerable on the entire tile is the nihil himself (when his health bar is red) and the crystals floating around.

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

On 2023-08-06 at 11:45 AM, _Anise_ said:

I completed it, and when it was new fight too, I didn't even know about the order, I guess he can break his own crystals

That's what I did this time around because there's no way I remember any of the crime scene stuff from 3 years ago.

You can technically destroy all of the crystals, so it's mostly a "guessing game" that narrows down the amount of crystals with each "attempt." 

 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

On 2023-08-06 at 7:32 PM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

yeah, i'm hoping they don't bother bringing this fight back again, it's really not worth all the salt it causes, so it should just be like Nihil himself and be forever trapped in a void where it can never be freed.

to think, some people want DE to bring raids back when their "alternative" boss fights can look like this.. crazy.

It would be hilarious if DE brought back raids and made them similar to destiny 2 where you actually had to do mechanics. 

Not because they would be hard, but because the outrage of people saying "I can't believe I have to use something other than my Mesa peacemakers to win." 

Aznvasions around a week ago was talking about how Warframe could have raids, and he put it in a very good sense by comparing it to one of Destiny's raids and basically said about how damage would only be one part of the boss fight, while actual knowledge would have to be another, and even if you could do all the damage, the run is still a fail if you can't perform the mechanics.