Removal of Flawed Mods and MK1 Weapons

[chaotea]

They've removed old weapons before, but they don't tend to remove them from inventories.

[PainfulBread]

Honestly, going from MK-1 weapons to "real" weapons is such a reason to explore weapons early on. 

I love having all weapons in my inventory, I use my MK-1 braton with 8 forma fully fleshed out to the max from time to time. Does it kill everything? No. Should I be allowed to have fun knowing squad mates don't understand why a L3 is carrying a MK-1, yea. 

You can buy them for credits, early on you can get a feel for different weapon types at a very low cost. 

If they start here, where do you end? Plenty of terrible weapons or niche use cases to remove then.

This game is all about doing the "why would you do that". 

[Rathalio]

I'm not sure how it will be handle when they effectively remove them. But I'm mostly worried about the mastery they carry. Will we keep it and will it end up legacy and unobtainable for for players that didn't rank them up before? Or will we all loose the mastery associated with them?

I don't really so why you would want to keep them that much though. They are designed with extremely low stats to be barely usable outside of the starting content and have better/complete versions for each. And we are not effectively loosing any weapons as we have them in their regular version.

[Rathalio]

26 minutes ago, chaotea said:

They've removed old weapons before, but they don't tend to remove them from inventories.

Didn't they bring back every old weapons they deleted at some point?
I'm thinking about the Snipetron for example? Is there really any weapon that have been effectively deleted and kept in players inventories who owned them that I'm unaware of?

[PhiZero]

This occurred a few times a long time ago with the Snipetron, (Now known as the Lanka) and a hand full of other weapons that I can't remember.

The weapons in our inventories were left as is, and so was the mastery exp they provided.

[Rathalio]

18 minutes ago, PhiZero said:

This occurred a few times a long time ago with the Snipetron, (Now known as the Lanka) and a hand full of other weapons that I can't remember.

The weapons in our inventories were left as is, and so was the mastery exp they provided.

Yeah, that's what I meant, they all came back a way or another, and are obtainable today. I think with the MK-1 the intention is different though.

[--UMBRA--MauVasconcellos]

Also, how about people taking the Bratok MK-1 to install Incarnon Adapters? These players too should have the chance to keep their weapons.

 

2 hours ago, Rathalio said:

I'm not sure how it will be handle when they effectively remove them. But I'm mostly worried about the mastery they carry. Will we keep it and will it end up legacy and unobtainable for for players that didn't rank them up before? Or will we all loose the mastery associated with them?

I don't really so why you would want to keep them that much though. They are designed with extremely low stats to be barely usable outside of the starting content and have better/complete versions for each. And we are not effectively loosing any weapons as we have them in their regular version.

Answering Rathalio's question:

Sentimental value. I feel Warframe has such few options when it comes to unique collectibles for players to keep. See the Founders, they have Excalibur and his weapons, and how we'll get  the Heirloom and the Sigil, which are also one time things. The Mk-1 Braton is the same. Its a relic of the past. A collectible. Sure, its not a powerful weapon to use, but that ain't the reason why I'd wanna keep it, see?

[Rathalio]

27 minutes ago, MauVasconcellos said:

Also, how about people taking the Bratok MK-1 to install Incarnon Adapters? These players too should have the chance to keep their weapons.

Removal is announced and there is an option to remove the adapters with Cavalero so it's fine, also they could even run a script in case people missed it to refund their adapters easily.

 

For the rest, I know people can have sentimental values to things like that, though it objectively remains rather weak as an argument. If there is a good reason for DE to remove them completely, I can't imagine this would be carrying much weight. Especially since the only difference with the regular version is their stats. It literally the same item but something went wrong with the stats.

[_Anise_]

still no one found out if they are only removing the source or deleting them from the game ? cause I am kinda tempted to go buy all the mk-1 weapons in that case, just to have them

[(PSN)x7thmoon]

5 hours ago, Rathalio said:

I'm not sure how it will be handle when they effectively remove them. But I'm mostly worried about the mastery they carry. Will we keep it and will it end up legacy and unobtainable for for players that didn't rank them up before? Or will we all loose the mastery associated with them?

I don't really so why you would want to keep them that much though. They are designed with extremely low stats to be barely usable outside of the starting content and have better/complete versions for each. And we are not effectively loosing any weapons as we have them in their regular version.

he clearly stated why. many players enjoy keeping starter gear and sutch as keepsakes, memento, excetra. also ye need to go actually look at the stats of the weapons as mk versions have alternative stats vs regular and are mostly on par with them. that said mk weapons actually can be used vs mid lv foes and if set up fully even be used vs basic foes around lv 45 to 60. this is from a player who actualy still uses the mk weapons as a veteran mastery 30+ and plays actively. 

[(PSN)x7thmoon]

2 hours ago, Rathalio said:

Removal is announced and there is an option to remove the adapters with Cavalero so it's fine, also they could even run a script in case people missed it to refund their adapters easily.

 

For the rest, I know people can have sentimental values to things like that, though it objectively remains rather weak as an argument. If there is a good reason for DE to remove them completely, I can't imagine this would be carrying much weight. Especially since the only difference with the regular version is their stats. It literally the same item but something went wrong with the stats.

no the real issue is theres no real reson to steal them from the players. theres no reson NOT to just let people keep what is allready ownd. 

[(PSN)x7thmoon]

5 hours ago, PhiZero said:

This occurred a few times a long time ago with the Snipetron, (Now known as the Lanka) and a hand full of other weapons that I can't remember.

The weapons in our inventories were left as is, and so was the mastery exp they provided.

this is actually incorrect as snipetron and lanka are separate weapons. furthermore snipetron was actually not removed, during a update several years ago the blueprints to several weapons was mistakenly lost from the market and months after de finally fixd it with a cover up by turning them into event exclusives. now in current date it is still possible to obtain said blueprints/weapons via said events. also to point out snipetron has a vandal variation while lanka has only its base default. the reson to correct this is because if de dus steal the mk weapons from players it wellbe the 1st instance of gear being stolen away from players.

[(PSN)x7thmoon]

3 hours ago, MauVasconcellos said:

Also, how about people taking the Bratok MK-1 to install Incarnon Adapters? These players too should have the chance to keep their weapons.

 

Answering Rathalio's question:

Sentimental value. I feel Warframe has such few options when it comes to unique collectibles for players to keep. See the Founders, they have Excalibur and his weapons, and how we'll get  the Heirloom and the Sigil, which are also one time things. The Mk-1 Braton is the same. Its a relic of the past. A collectible. Sure, its not a powerful weapon to use, but that ain't the reason why I'd wanna keep it, see?

fully agreed. theres no reason to take them from inventory just remove the purchase of new 1s from market place. they can obviously do it that way as it was done with various other scenario like the blueprints to make bait and old resources like omega nav beacon, the resources from the mercury relay construction, past nightwave currency and most noted VAULTED RELICS. yes imagine if we the players just ignored this issue and decided to let it be. all we know next de well decide to take other gear and sutch ? put cap limitations to max inventory slots can be purchased ? take away platinum and trades ? remove all dojo ? yes imagine spending hours of effort to reach a goal only to be smaked by de and told no yer not allowed to have goals progress or a sense of accomplishment. thats literally what is and well happen.

[SpicyDinosaur]

It's a a few lines of code, not really much of a keepsake.

 

That said, some weapons that seem inferior in PvE actually have a small advantage in Conclave because of the different stat distribution and how small the numbers need to be to make an impact there. I haven't delved enough into the numbers but I vaguely recall someone telling me some of the MK-1s are useful. I've tested them myself, but it's hard to tell what is and isn't of any worth since I am so godawful at the game mode.

 

You've been able to buy them from the market this whole time, so they aren't really collectibles. They probably aren't going to wipe existing ones, and I'm not clear on the benefit of removing the weapons in general, but it's certainly a very weird thing to form an attachment to, It's like people who get mad when there's an event that underlines the fact that our operators are psychopathic little war criminals because they want to play the good guy. We have never been good guys. Also, your MK-1s are just a series of 1 and 0s keeping your inventory all cluttered.

 

The mastery issue is probably the only thing I'd be curious about, it would be unfair to upcoming players to make that affinity unaccessible by them.

[Birdframe_Prime]

22 hours ago, Gamer_Auto said:

Again, who in their right mind would put Arcanes and Incarnons on the MK-1 gear if not to flex or meme?

Quite a lot of people, apparently. They're available to incarnon, and the stats that the incarnons add are greater for those weapons to bring them up to late-game level, so just being able to make such low-damage weapons actually viable is less a meme and more a testament to what has happened with power scaling.

[schilds]

They could do it by converting each mk1 to a new weapon. Built ones would keep all their mastery, forma, potatoes and stuff. Not sure what would happen to incarnon adapters.

[Kaotyke]

Should I be worried about my 8 Forma Incarnon MK1-Braton?

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

If memory serves me, MK-1 weapons were also the only weapons purchasable directly by Credits, without blueprints, to jumpstart a new player's early gameplay, not requiring them to wait through collecting resources, and 12-24hr build times.

I don't see removing those as a Good Thing (TM) for the new player experience that they supposedly want to improve.

[Tiltskillet]

31 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

If memory serves me, MK-1 weapons were also the only weapons purchasable directly by Credits, without blueprints, to jumpstart a new player's early gameplay, not requiring them to wait through collecting resources, and 12-24hr build times.

I don't see removing those as a Good Thing (TM) for the new player experience that they supposedly want to improve.

There are some non-MK weapons purchasable for credits:  Braton, Strun, Lato, Lex, and Sicarus if I found them all.  I don't see any melee weapons though.

[Hobie-wan]

13 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Don't waste your time with that poster. They will never be satisfied with anything in this game. They just post rants after rants after rants everytime there is a content drop.

Indeedy.

Feedback is fine, but that's not what they do. I gave up wondering why they don't stop and play something else ages ago. But maybe they just act the same way about everything in their life. I hope they get help and find happiness someday.

[Dreadlox]

They probably add the mr point to the normal version of the weapons and use it as a legacy weapon so it explains the more mr point

[master_of_destiny]

So, I have a different perspective.  I don't think removing these items is reasonable, and the reason is simple.  They are very limited in usage and for a very specific target demographic.

 

Let me explain better.  You have a game that is free to play.  The incentive here then has to be to make players want to pay that first little bit of money, and get them hooked.  This is very much not possible when the first thing you encounter in Warframe is a grind wall.  I log in, I complete the first mission, and I'm rewarded with flawed mods and access to a market.  The flawed mods are weak, but they also allow my rank 2 frame to equip something...as standard mods have such a high drain that with 2 capacity I basically have nothing that I can slap on to feel more powerful...until flawed mods allow me that.

Likewise, if I start with three weapons I don't want to start my fourth knowing next to nothing about it, and having to wait 12-24 hours before I can try out a new weapon that I may not like.  Boy, does it suck to wait half a day to realize that the furis is just bad.  So, to rectify that we got mk-1 weapons.  Plink down the credits, and you can basically test out some basic weapons without having to hit that waiting wall.

 

Hopefully you see why I like these mods/weapons now...but why do I care about them in the endgame?  I don't.  They are the equivalent of the stug and any number of other things that exist as a bridge, and once the bridge is crossed don't matter.  Thing is, if you're a new player they're vital to get you started.  Maybe it's been too long since most of you were new players...but I remember having to decide whether to add damage or multishot and not knowing enough about weapons to realize that 10% multishot versus 10% damage increase is a question of RNG.  That is 0.9^10, or 35% of the time, that multishot never triggers in 10 shots.  Of course, this means the more potential is with multishot but the guarantee is 10% damage increase means 100% of the time I do 110% damage.

 

 

Now...I imagine a world where DE does this and we can be better.  That's be to remove the mk-1 items, add in some extras which can be bought for credits (without fabrication, and thus without the artificial wait), and make everyone happy by introducing some "new" weapons to test for credits only.  Likewise, they could pump out some new basic mods that give a bunch of basic stats at very low levels (0-4 capacity that gives 10-50% health, 5-25% energy, and 5-25% armor) which would be useful for niche builds and leveling.  Unfortunately, the way they are framing this is that they'll just be carved out...which does a severe disservice to the new players.

As such, I reserve the right to change my mind but currently think that DE just doesn't have a plan.  They know that these are vestiges of the old new player introduction...but aren't really laying out a plan to replace their function.  Meanwhile, we're about 4 focus changes in and they're looking to make that easier.  For those of you who don't remember, the four phases are: Raid based lense RNG with Naramon on top, focus rework once PoE dropped and lenses weren't unobtanium, a complete rework to balance schools, and now the new system that's supposed to make things better.  While I can't argue that most schools now have a niche, I do argue that focus has gone from endgame to given out by the literal millions on "starter" areas.  Who else remembers grinding Adaro and similar with an Atterax?  Yes, a silence Banshee doing 2-3 runs in a day could accumulate a huge stealth bonus and get a day's worth of focus in a few runs...with a lower focus cap.  After a few hundred runs and a few months you could earn enough to power everything up.  Now anyone with a frame and 40 minutes can farm thrax during the wyrm boss and get a few hundred thousand almost incidentally simply by unlocking the school associated and a bit of grinding.  Nothing quite like not having to grind for 4 lenses, pay for a greater lense bp, grinding an eidolon lense bp, and RNG grinding for a Lua lense bp to get a 15% conversion once every few minutes...to 2,500 for ganking a single enemy. 

This....if not clear already...seems like DE making a change without thinking, because it only hurts players at low levels.  They shed this stuff quickly, so the numbers show it's trash...but it's trash that has the value of gold at low levels.  Thing is, Warframe doesn't have an incentive to fix the trash into being good, only ejecting it so that equality of outcome is above equality of opportunity.  Yay...rivens all over again. 

[drnlmza]

32 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let me explain better.  You have a game that is free to play.  The incentive here then has to be to make players want to pay that first little bit of money, and get them hooked.  This is very much not possible when the first thing you encounter in Warframe is a grind wall.  I log in, I complete the first mission, and I'm rewarded with flawed mods and access to a market.  The flawed mods are weak, but they also allow my rank 2 frame to equip something...as standard mods have such a high drain that with 2 capacity I basically have nothing that I can slap on to feel more powerful...until flawed mods allow me that.

a) Everyone's reading a lot into what was a single throwaway comment during the presentation - I'm reserving any judgement until there are some more details

b) You're forgetting how incredibly uneven flawed mods are - a handful work as you describe, and give a new player options the full mods don't (flawed serration or flawed hornet strike, for example), although for some the bonuses are so slight as to be of no meaningful benefit (flawed continuity, for example), but a number are just the same as the full version with a lower max rank for no good reason (Flawed Pressure Point, the Flawed elemental mods) and some are just flat out worse than the full version in every way (Flawed Vitality or Flawed Point Blank for example). At the very least, they need a balance pass, and a lot of them can be removed in favor of the full version without hindering new players at all. 

[master_of_destiny]

6 minutes ago, drnlmza said:

a) Everyone's reading a lot into what was a single throwaway comment during the presentation - I'm reserving any judgement until there are some more details

b) You're forgetting how incredibly uneven flawed mods are - a handful work as you describe, and give a new player options the full mods don't (flawed serration or flawed hornet strike, for example), although for some the bonuses are so slight as to be of no meaningful benefit (flawed continuity, for example), but a number are just the same as the full version with a lower max rank for no good reason (Flawed Pressure Point, the Flawed elemental mods) and some are just flat out worse than the full version in every way (Flawed Vitality or Flawed Point Blank for example). At the very least, they need a balance pass, and a lot of them can be removed in favor of the full version without hindering new players at all. 

To point A, read farther.  I think we agree on that.

 

To point B, you seem to agree and not?  I would agree with the balance pass.  My suggestion for a low cost and low benefit (but large coverage) mod stands.  A balance pass stands as another valid solution.  Being fair, the lowest levels of any mod suck...so 5% damage on a 30 damage weapon is a joke, as it's 1.5 damage more.  That said, it is something.  I'm of the  mind that the visual feedback for some of these is good enough and gives the player a "feel" for the mod system potential.  That's what you really want...and simply carving these out of the game is...short sighted.

Of course, DE sucks at communication.  We could be looking at a carve-out, we could be looking at a replacement, or we could be looking at a retool.  They rarely explain things well...and this might be because they don't know what they're doing until the thing releases.  At least, that's how things have felt since Fortuna and Railjack.

[Joezone619]

I'd say keep Mk-1 weapons, but trash the flawed mods. The mk-1 weapons serve as good early versions of these weapons and being purchasable for credits, serve as a way for the player to find what playstyle they like.

The flawed mods though? Once you get the out of tutorial territory you need to farm for them again xD They're unnecessary, just give new players the real mods.