Quality of Life to make Vauban Usable Again

[Goldy]

DE please give Vauban's Vortex ability LoS (line of sight) to make him playable again.

Usually when LoS is applied to an ability, especially if it does damage, it's considered a nerf, but in this case I really think it would make the life of a squad with a Vauban more bearable if I DON'T have to search for enemies stuck under the map and behind a wall to clear a defense wave.

Thanks for reading.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

It'll never stop being funny to me when people are like "wth" when they see my 280% vauban place vortex traps at the ceiling of hydron, and grineer spin on their way to heaven.

 

Honestly, I don't think I'd like to see that functionality be removed, then again it'd be great to have when you chose to have it. Which is why I think we should be able to decide to have it or not with an augment mod. That way you can still have obnoxious CC on missions you don't need to do a whole lot of killing in, like mobile def, while still having the option to change it for missions where it does matter.

[sunderthefirmament]

12 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

It'll never stop being funny to me when people are like "wth" when they see my 280% vauban place vortex traps at the ceiling of hydron, and grineer spin on their way to heaven.

 

Honestly, I don't think I'd like to see that functionality be removed, then again it'd be great to have when you chose to have it. Which is why I think we should be able to decide to have it or not with an augment mod. That way you can still have obnoxious CC on missions you don't need to do a whole lot of killing in, like mobile def, while still having the option to change it for missions where it does matter.

I think a decent middle ground would be:

• Bastille: no line of sight check
• Vortex: line of sight check.

[NinjaZeku]

This would be such a big nerf in so many situations.

Please no.

Vauban is perfectly usable as-is, don't hurt the Frame because of some players
who haven't yet figured out how to use him best / what kind of Loadout to complement him with
(like Enemy Radar Mods and AoE weapons to deal with enemies "stuck" outside of LoS).

[Goldy]

16 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

This would be such a big nerf in so many situations.

Please no.

Vauban is perfectly usable as-is, don't hurt the Frame because of some players
who haven't yet figured out how to use him best / what kind of Loadout to complement him with
(like Enemy Radar Mods and AoE weapons to deal with enemies "stuck" outside of LoS).

How is that a big nerf? Elaborate please.

[NinjaZeku]

7 hours ago, Goldy said:

How is that a big nerf? Elaborate please.

It's pretty simple, CC / enemy grouping that has to rely on LoS is TONS weaker than abilities that do not require that.

Not least with the wonky LoS detection Warframe has, non-LoS is just so much more reliable to protect the Squad / objectives.

Like, try to use Inaros' Sandstorm to CC enemies, and then try Avalanche or whatever. Tell me there's no noticable difference, I dare you.

[PollexMessier]

23 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

This would be such a big nerf in so many situations.

Please no.

Vauban is perfectly usable as-is, don't hurt the Frame because of some players
who haven't yet figured out how to use him best / what kind of Loadout to complement him with
(like Enemy Radar Mods and AoE weapons to deal with enemies "stuck" outside of LoS).

How exactly is a pile of enemies stuck ragdolling against the opposite side of a wall where it's difficult to reach them, more valuable than them only getting sucked into your grouping tool when they're actually guaranteed to get grouped where you want them?

This is a huge issue with a lot of CCs that pull enemies and it's really frustrating. Strangledome is annoying enough when it's not doing this, but it does. It's never anything but annoying when grouping abilities don't have a line of sight check.

The use cases of these sorts of abilities are as follows:
1. Defend a specific area. This use literally does not care about enemies not within line of sight as they pose no threat to the thing you're defending. And in Defense missions specifically is actively a detriment cus needing to hunt down the handfull of enemies spazzing out in multiple cramped corners a floor below you tanks the mission speed.
2. Grouping enemies up to take out in huge numbers with a single target or punch-through weapon. Again, more useful if it's line of sight only cus otherwise it's holding enemies outside of your kill box.
3. Survivability. This is really the only use case of this sort of ability where ignoring LoS is a benefit. And only if you stray a fair distance away from where you set it. Generally you're not taking frames like this into scenarios where you'd be using the ability in this way anyways. Basically this is a niche function that's massively overshadowed by the two opposing reasons to add line of sight to grouping abilities like this.

Adding line of sight to vortex would be a net positive both for the Vauban user, and their teammates.

[sunderthefirmament]

3 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

Not least with the wonky LoS detection Warframe has, non-LoS is just so much more reliable to protect the Squad / objectives.

This is my only source of hesitation when requesting a LoS check on Vortex specifically. DE can’t code LoS checks reliably, or there’s something about their level geometry that is messing it up. Whipclaw feels awful to use. Fireblast is a gamble. 

[(PSN)Frost_Nephilim]

On 2023-09-17 at 7:16 PM, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

It'll never stop being funny to me when people are like "wth" when they see my 280% vauban place vortex traps at the ceiling of hydron, and grineer spin on their way to heaven

Lol trollban is a go again huh? Loved trolling with his bounce pads and turn the game into a game of pinball and players were the balls. So funny when you effectively forced them to be in your game while they desperately try to escape the bounces. Even they laughed sometimes when i had them zooming around small rooms 😂

Id do this one but its a lil too mean, still funny though

On 2023-09-17 at 3:11 PM, Goldy said:

DE please give Vauban's Vortex ability LoS (line of sight) to make him playable again.

Usually when LoS is applied to an ability, especially if it does damage, it's considered a nerf, but in this case I really think it would make the life of a squad with a Vauban more bearable if I DON'T have to search for enemies stuck under the map and behind a wall to clear a defense wave.

Thanks for reading.

Also yes! This would be a very smart move! Thank you for putting this out there 👍👍👍 

[NinjaZeku]

4 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

difficult to reach them

[...] Strangledome is annoying

Like I mentioned in my first response, this mostly boils down to the user of the ability messing up,
if they don't come prepared with something to easily get rid of "stuck" enemies,
and / or in general don't fully understand how their abilites etc work.

You cannot foolproof something. History has taught us that. There will always be a bigger fool :P

When I Booben, it's either in something like Mobile Defense where killing everything ASAP is not the main goal,
or I use my 4s in such a way that they don't hinder mission progress, whatever that entails.

5 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

1. Defend a specific area. This use literally does not care about enemies not within line of sight as they pose no threat to the thing you're defending.

But maybe I DON'T just want to protect a single objective, but also my Squad at the same time.

5 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

2. Grouping enemies up to take out in huge numbers with a single target or punch-through weapon.

AoE weapons exist, they are hardly weak options, they work fine against enemies not within LoS.

5 hours ago, PollexMessier said:

3. Survivability [...] Generally you're not taking frames like this into scenarios where you'd be using the ability in this way anyways. Basically this is a niche function

Outright denying someone else's playstyle as niche and maybe even "wrong" ... no, I don't agree with that.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 6 heures, (PSN)Frost_Nephilim a dit :

Lol trollban is a go again huh? Loved trolling with his bounce pads and turn the game into a game of pinball and players were the balls. So funny when you effectively forced them to be in your game while they desperately try to escape the bounces. Even they laughed sometimes when i had them zooming around small rooms 😂

Id do this one but its a lil too mean, still funny though

To be fair, if you aim your vortex at the exact center of the ceiling in Hydron, it's not even that troll, you just make it easy to get aoe damage off. Though with 280, some still get stuck against some walls.

You could run high strength Vauban for the speed boost pads. Then you place them right under your allies, and see them kiss the walls as soon as they take a step.

[rapt0rman]

8 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

This is my only source of hesitation when requesting a LoS check on Vortex specifically. DE can’t code LoS checks reliably, or there’s something about their level geometry that is messing it up. Whipclaw feels awful to use. Fireblast is a gamble. 

But neither of those are duration based, fire and forget, aoe gathering abilities, they rely on essentially a single render frame from a single point of origin to determine whether something is LoS or not.

Enemies constantly fidgeting around and moving in and out of cover would likely almost guarantee that anything within the appropriate distance would get tagged.

That said, I actually have no idea and it's entirely possible that we'd have Grineer standing there 3ft away from the Vortex, perfectly fine because of a small railing.

[Raarsi]

2 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

You could run high strength Vauban for the speed boost pads. Then you place them right under your allies, and see them kiss the walls as soon as they take a step.

Honestly, I'd love to see DE buff those to apply overguard as well just for a regular excuse to do that.

Now that I think of it, I wouldn't mind Vauban getting at least a teeny bit more defense to his kit, but I'd understand if that was turned down.

[TheLexiConArtist]

4 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

But neither of those are duration based, fire and forget, aoe gathering abilities, they rely on essentially a single render frame from a single point of origin to determine whether something is LoS or not.

Enemies constantly fidgeting around and moving in and out of cover would likely almost guarantee that anything within the appropriate distance would get tagged.

That said, I actually have no idea and it's entirely possible that we'd have Grineer standing there 3ft away from the Vortex, perfectly fine because of a small railing.

For a comparison, try floating around with a long ranged Hildryn. You will see enemies bouncing in and out of the CC because the slight lift somehow takes them 'out' of LOS. You will see enemies 'obstructed' by tiny crests in the level geometry, or by other small/narrow miscellany that doesn't stop them actually shooting.

LOS check is always unreliable, and unreliable CC is tantamount to no CC (as if Overguard wasn't bad enough for that). The fact that Vortex is going to displace the enemies along the way is as likely to swing them right back out of the control as it is to 'collect' them 'when it matters'.

[SteveCutler]

Please no, for the love of God. Vauban is perfectly usable as he is; he's an amazing frame. Changing Vortex to be line of sight only would absolutely kill him off and ruin him. As a Vauban main, I would be so sad if it were changed as you suggested, and would stop playing him entirely.

If you want a grouping ability that requires line of sight, then just play Nidus, Mag, Zephyr, Yareli or any other frame with an infused grouping ability. Those work the way you want already; there's no need to change Vauban. The fact that Vortex doesn't require line of sight sets it apart and is what makes it such a powerhouse. It's the best grouping ability in the entire game specifically because of this!

In your OP, you say "make the life of a squad with a Vauban more bearable", which suggests that you're not actually talking about playing Vauban at all, but rather just that you got annoyed by another player and came here to make a rant post. There are many frames that can be a bother to other players; I would actually say most conflict in some way (e.g. Overguard blocking Adrenaline/Rage, players killing mobs stopping Chroma/Gyre from charging up, Limbo leaving enemies scattered in and out of the rift, Strangledome dangling enemies around, Frost's Snow Globe blocking gunfire, etc.). It's unfortunate but that's just the way it is. Blame the players for not considering others, or not playing their frame in a cooperative manner. Vauban works just fine if you know how to use him properly.

Edited September 20 by SteveCutler

[-Bossnium-]

I agree with a lot of people saying changing it to LOS would kill Vauban. Not playing devils advocate but I also agree with the annoyance of locating enemies stuck in the rafters. I do believe a middle ground could be reach, however LOS on vortex imo is not it. If you look at high range CC abilities across the board they all hinder the flow of enemies, either by slowing, freezing, stunning, sleeping, etc.. It almost like they are controlling the crowd.

I understand the los idea however and the concept of mitigating "stuck" enemies on a different vector than we are used to. As most CC's dont add the height variable. One idea would keep them grounded, however the rework for this would consist of giving them an excess of mass when effected by vortex which would open another can of worms.

@OP I think your idea is in the right spot but dealing with they dynamics of how it would effect his toolkit, and basing vortex off other CC's I dont feel los is a viable solution(to a problem that imo one of lest annoying group impactable CC's on the list of other annoying CC's).Limbo has been notorious for being the most interesting frames when you are playing limbo but for no-one else. Missing the days when projectiles were froze in cata, was op but also was annoying for a group.