The problem with Liches and Sisters - Player Division

[Void2258]

There is a major issue with Liches and sisters, and it goes to the core of the system. If you miss a stab, they move to the next planet, and you have to move with them. The problem is that each planet is progressively less populated in the special lich/sister nodes. Unlike many other things in the game, the way murmurs function makes it ACTIVELY bad to solo. You want a full 4 person team as much as possible, otherwise your murmur gains can be low enough to require more than 4 times the missions to get the same progress. And so what happens is that by the third planet (Ceres for liches, Jupiter for sisters) it can become a days long endeavor to find a map worth running. You even have people 'conserving' nodes, quitting missions and forfeiting progress if they haven't gotten 'enough' to be worth having to move to a different mission type (with some types being actively avoided).

This can result in the system becoming 'stuck', with a lich/sister hanging around for days or even weeks because there is no good way to progress and finish. This problem amplifies with each level, to the point where some players have had level 5 liches hanging around for months simply due to an inability to progress them due to low player counts (lvl 5 is especially problematic, since this can only happen if you made a fully mistaken stab, typically players on their first time).

The problem is population thinning. By forcing players to keep moving to a new planet that ONLY players at the current level care about, you reduce the pool of players by a significant fraction with each move. This forces smaller and smaller parties and thus makes progress slower and slower, essentially feeling like a punishment for not having guessed the sequence correctly or used an Oul to short circuit things. The problem immediately clears up when you go to the confrontation, because everyone is again combined into a single player pool and the population is fine.

The system needs to be rethought. We need this entire process to happen either on one planet regardless of the level of lich/sister or to happen on all planets at once with players queuing together irrespective of level, so that one player pool exists to fill all missions (the second option is far less optimal, since now it turns into an optimization game as to which nodes are played). There are not enough people at any given time doing a particular level of lich or sister to properly fill all planets at once separately, and the player pool exponentially shrinks as the level increases. We need to enable everyone doing the content to all group together, in order to make the content more fun and less painful for everyone.

[quxier]

5 hours ago, Void2258 said:

There is a major issue with Liches and sisters, and it goes to the core of the system. If you miss a stab, they move to the next planet, and you have to move with them. The problem is that each planet is progressively less populated in the special lich/sister nodes. Unlike many other things in the game, the way murmurs function makes it ACTIVELY bad to solo. You want a full 4 person team as much as possible, otherwise your murmur gains can be low enough to require more than 4 times the missions to get the same progress. And so what happens is that by the third planet (Ceres for liches, Jupiter for sisters) it can become a days long endeavor to find a map worth running. You even have people 'conserving' nodes, quitting missions and forfeiting progress if they haven't gotten 'enough' to be worth having to move to a different mission type (with some types being actively avoided).

Bad for solo? Not so bad.

Problem doing it for first time? Sure.

Problem doing bad/stupid decision? Sure. I've recently used 2 Ultimatum with wrong Requiem mod (not combination but wrong mod entirely).

 

Murmur gain solo is fine (minus some bad stuff, more later). It's based on kills, afair. Doing just few solo missions and you get you get 1 requiem mod. By the time Lich appears you get some for 2nd mod. With Lich you get another 10 murmurs. You test 1 mod. With luck you only need 2 more tries. Unless you have bad luck (e.g. you guess all mods incorrectly and/or without OUl).

The problem with Murmur gain is that Lich sometimes don't want to convert enemies. I've used to kite them to Lich but it's boring/long things to do.

And in general, for solo players gaining Requiem mods is harder... but not impossible. To farm it you need 100 traces & mod. Solo player have to do it many times. However you can buy them for like 10-15 plat.

 

5 hours ago, Void2258 said:

 

The system needs to be rethought. We need this entire process to happen either on one planet regardless of the level of lich/sister or to happen on all planets at once with players queuing together irrespective of level, so that one player pool exists to fill all missions (the second option is far less optimal, since now it turns into an optimization game as to which nodes are played). There are not enough people at any given time doing a particular level of lich or sister to properly fill all planets at once separately, and the player pool exponentially shrinks as the level increases. We need to enable everyone doing the content to all group together, in order to make the content more fun and less painful for everyone.

They could make that nodes don't deactivate after doing Lich/sister mission (you can do them again). With some addition of "mission not cleared give more murmurs, e.g. 2x".

[Megazawr]

11 minutes ago, quxier said:

They could make that nodes don't deactivate after doing Lich/sister mission

sometimes they do(that's quite rare tho). and sometimes they reactivate(but I had this only once or twice)

[RichardKam]

I have murdered/enslaved more than 20 liches/sisters solo, even before when Oull was a thing. Cannot see any problem. 

Planet nodes take time to reset. Unless you are in an absolute hurry ("I need that tenet plinx RIGHT NOW") or are extremely picky on nodes ("I would rather die than do that interception"), otherwise there should be sufficient missions for spawning thralls - you have an entire planet nodes to do that.

32分钟前 , quxier 说:

And in general, for solo players gaining Requiem mods is harder... but not impossible. To farm it you need 100 traces & mod. Solo player have to do it many times. However you can buy them for like 10-15 plat.

That is actually a bigger problem with solo players starting their lich hunt. It was so difficult to pick up momentum in terms of requiem relics and requiem mods. You need to keep farming kuva siphon and flood and thralls to get some relics, and hope those relics give you some mods and not just ayatan stars, and pray that those mods are the exact three requiem mods to finish your lich. 

[Hexerin]

Just push your lich to the final confrontation and handle it there. The mods don't de-rank unless you successfully eliminate the lich, so there's literally no cost to just blind running combos in a methodical order. Especially since there's simply no way you'll reach the confrontation without at least one known word, unless you intentionally ignore the plenthora of thralls you'll encounter on the way. Also, since you're going to encounter your lich on each planet, you can try combos along the way.

The only part of this mode that's frustrating, is the obtainment method of the mods. A rarely dropped relic, that has an extremely watered down loot pool. Whoever thought that was a good idea needs to be slapped hard.

[trst]

This isn't an issue with Lich nodes but some player error. It should take an hour or two to finish an entire Lich solo and there's no excuse for it to take days let alone months.

Also there shouldn't be any population thinning since each Lich/Sister goes to the same planet. The only time it should thin out is for level five Liches since they shouldn't reach that if they're being farmed properly.

[Tsukinoki]

11 hours ago, Void2258 said:

it can become a days long endeavor to find a map worth running.

What?
And I do mean seriously: WHAT?

This is just absurd....and purely on the players end if they just go "Nope, I'll never touch these missions and never clear them out!  I refuse to even think of playing interception/defense/mdef/whatever!!!!"  And you would have to be someone who doesn't want to play a majority of the missions in teh game in order for it to not have enough nodes for you to get another requiem mod/stab a lich.

11 hours ago, Void2258 said:

with a lich/sister hanging around for days or even weeks because there is no good way to progress and finish. This problem amplifies with each level, to the point where some players have had level 5 liches hanging around for months simply due to an inability to progress them due to low player counts

Again, this is 100% on the player not the system.

I've cleared plenty of liches/sisters while playing solo, and none of them took longer than 2 or 3 hours to clear up.

This is 100% on the players end to go "Yeah, I just don't want to run most of the missions available for no real reason......" and then complaining that they can't finish their lich because it's not only infecting capture/exterminate missions.

 

There is no legitimate excuse for the player to just sit there and twiddle their thumbs and refuse to play the missions, and no real way for them to turn around and blame the system for that sort of behavior.

 

And if you bring in the "But new players who can't do high level content!?!?!?" then I just have to say: recruiting is a thing and there generally are players willing to help out because of boredom if nothing else.

[SneakyErvin]

Sounds more like player error and someone that hasnt really bothered to learn the system.

The most simple first step is. Do not stab the #*!%er unless you are sure you've cleared all the nodes you want on the current planet.

The second most simple step is. Do not stab the #*!%er unless you have unlocked atleast 1 requiem out of the 3. That reduces the risk for having the lich/sister level up for no reason.

We arent living in the old lich system anymore. So blind stabbing has become utterly pointless really since we now have a consistant system which often doesnt put the lich or sister beyond level 3.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Why would you wait days, when you can do at least some of it yourself while you wait?

This content isn't really for brand new people. Use revenant, rhino or nezha if you need extra help.

[(XBOX)Hellsteeth30]

The only real hassle is some interceptions, though reducing the murmur grind would be nice.

The worst bit about liches is the relics.

[fo3nixz]

solo lich /sister take avg 3hrs (61 liches & 44 sisters to date)

[TARINunit9]

13 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Especially since there's simply no way you'll reach the confrontation without at least one known word

You'd like to think that, but...

[Hexerin]

5 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

You'd like to think that, but...

Literally has two known words.

[TARINunit9]

59 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Literally has two known words.

OK that's what you meant. In my clan we would call those "revealed," and they're not "known" until you know the order

[Hexerin]

29 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

OK that's what you meant. In my clan we would call those "revealed," and they're not "known" until you know the order

Ah, fair 'nuff. I call them known because it's what it says on the actual UI. Not sure what I'd call the actual stab-revealed ones, though, now that I think about it. Maybe borrow from rivens and call them "unveiled".

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Don't really agree with a few points. Not just because subjectively, different players experiences can yield different results, and different people can have different preferences, but other reasons to. 

Not that I can't sympathise either, or acknowledge that different people can have difference preferences. Just a lot of issues raised can by bypassed or done more efficiently with some thought and consideration. So say hypothetically, if you dislike the activity, but want the reward? Efficiency is great in helping you get the reward faster.The ability to consider is significant though. For example, the greater potential for murmur yield is significantly more in a group yes. However if you are solo, you can also dictate and control the pace better as well. As someone who has soloed a lot of Lichs/Sisters, it only takes a few missions to unveil a Requiem glyph. Unless you speed through the mission and avoid stabbing thralls/hounds. Now depending on a players preference, and factors like whether they have Oull, a Lich/Sister showing up on the first node, may be a blessing or a curse. For a few reasons. If they show up, they can introduce more additional progress via more thralls/hounds and an attempt at stabbing. Even if you don't attempt, you can still get extra progress. For many, having Oull in the first slot, also basically gives you a free stab, which can in turn give extra progress. Though, some may prefer to only stab if they have a revealed Requiem, or.. you may not have Oull. 

Mission priorities is also something else to consider. Capture and Exterminate missions are pretty popular because those mission types are popular. If you are trying to find PUGs, those nodes tend to be safe bets. If you want to find yourself solo even set to public, Defence, Disruption etc less so. Consider missions with fail stats as well. Lichs/Sisters aren't always that strong, but some can have abilities which may be potent as far as Rad procs and so on. Their can be value in doing a few missions you don't care for first, to increase the chances, the Lich will show up in a mission you find more favourable for it to show up in. Whether PUB or solo. 

Lichs/Sisters should never be stuck for days, weeks or months. Yes, I may be more proficient than most because I have hunted hundreds, but a solo player can potentially knock down Lichs/Sisters in less than 2 hours, with a bit of practice and consideration to their strategy. Its also worth remembering the process has been streamlined and improved more than a few times. Like the murmur gains have been buffed, the addition of Oull and the other card, I recall the exact name of, but lets you force spawn a Lich/Sister. For me, the only real improvement I think is reasonable is for the ephemera acquisition to be a little less RNG, though arguably, thats a way for some to make Plat via sales aka a similar argument to certain Arcanes. I tend to be more on the side of letting people get the thing they want though rather than turning a game into a business situation, but thats just me.

[0_The_F00l]

The system we have now is not the best , i agree , but there are ways to mitigate it a bit.

The first few lich/sister hunts are indeed very difficult , especially if you don't know what you are doing.

But after you get the universal requiem and play smartly you will usually have the sequence by third stab (4th if you get unlucky).

 

 

Can it be better ? Sure. I am hoping the murmur in the walls will give some options just as zariman and duviri have options for focus