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Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework


[DE]Juice
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19 minutes ago, GeorgeFernell said:

The only way I could agree to it if you could PLACE a puddle somewhere and keep playing, that would be somewhat in character as creating the abyss that swallows enemies & such.

They did this with the water character in The First Descendant, Valby. In fact the puddles were practically her passive, attached to all her abilities.  Her big puddle ability was a teleport - big puddle where she jumps in, and big puddle where she jumps out. That would have been cool. 

https://imgur.com/a/qUqQo2W <- an imgur gallery with all of Valby's abilities

Also, come one, you gotta admit that if they made it kong-cloud levels of fast, but you have to be on the ground, but you get to pick up enemies, that would have been fun too. You could make race car noises as you picked up all the enemies on the map and dropped them at your teams kill zone. Or maybe you could taxi battery carriers to your extractors when they're being too slow like Grendel can, that'd be funny. 

Edited by (PSN)aarott
added a galley link
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31 minutes ago, (NSW)Yeyeg said:

Why is it so unbelievable to you people that we actually like playing hydroid, main him and have him as our most used frame?

We exist, and when our favourite boy is getting changes we want to make it so that we will still be maining him after them

Because Hydroid was my 2nd ever Prime frame, right after volt.
Because I got him over 6 years ago and he is 5 forma.
Because over the years he has become completely incapable of doing anything the game requires you to do.
Because the only way to "Main" him is to sit in a lvl 40 defence/survival in a puddle.
And at that point you are playing dress up with dolls and not playing the game.
Which you are perfectly allowed to do but that removes your right to complain about actual GAME design.

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6 hours ago, CosoMalvadoNG said:

The comments on this post remind me of those on the Grendel rework, ''the only thing I like'', ''the best thing it has'', ''meta''.

Just because Undertow won't be there anymore? really? With what you tell me I can only understand one thing, you all understand that the 0.80%+- of the players base who use Hydroid today going stop playing it? just for the puddle? But what happens to the 99.20% of players who don't use it?

In the end it all comes down to: ''I don't like it for x reason'', ''I play it because it has a puddle'', ''if they take away the puddle I'll stop playing it'', ''without a puddle it's no longer the same''. Just baby cries.

I wonder, do players like a monotonous or static gameplay with which they can farm semi afk without playing the game? Is they judgment just poor? 

oh no you didnt GIF by Shalita Grant

Maybe think before you speak because you are calling players "cry babies" because they enjoy using a Warframes's specific abilities.  If DE were tor replace Mesa's Peacemaker with a power that Stripped Armor instead what would you call them?  Losers?  Mocking us players that prefer the Puddle is ridiculous and rude so please offer something of value to this conversation or be a doll and move along.  Players use Warframes because they like the play-style using specific abilities of their chosen Warframe.  If you were to take away some of those abilities that people enjoy using, I would assume that some players might object to said changes.  You look like a fool for mocking those of us that would prefer to retain the Puddle because it was what made Hydroid unique and different.   I get it, you don't like to use Hydroid and his Puddle. Then DON'T use Hydroid.  There is no need to belittle and mock other players that do enjoy the Puddle.  Maybe you just need a hug!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

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41 minutes ago, GeorgeFernell said:

Because Hydroid was my 2nd ever Prime frame, right after volt.
Because I got him over 6 years ago and he is 5 forma.
Because over the years he has become completely incapable of doing anything the game requires you to do.
Because the only way to "Main" him is to sit in a lvl 40 defence/survival in a puddle.
And at that point you are playing dress up with dolls and not playing the game.
Which you are perfectly allowed to do but that removes your right to complain about actual GAME design.

I've played throught like all available content with him, like i don't know what to tell you, maybe you are just bad at the game or playing him...

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36 minutes ago, GeorgeFernell said:

Because Hydroid was my 2nd ever Prime frame, right after volt.
Because I got him over 6 years ago and he is 5 forma.
Because over the years he has become completely incapable of doing anything the game requires you to do.
Because the only way to "Main" him is to sit in a lvl 40 defence/survival in a puddle.
And at that point you are playing dress up with dolls and not playing the game.
Which you are perfectly allowed to do but that removes your right to complain about actual GAME design.

How about you grow up and learn some manners.  If you don't like Hydroid, then don't play him. It does NOT matter how and when I use Hydroid or his current abilities. Period. Full-Stop!  You do NOT get to dictate my Warframe choices.  I like the Puddle and prefer it was kept in some capacity. DE has missed the mark by assuming the Puddle was the problem.  The people that complained about the puddle probably didn't even use Hydroid to his full Puddle Potential.  The bottom line is you don't have to like Hydroid for his puddle but that doesn't mean others can't enjoy him for the Puddle.  Maybe you need a hug too!

Have a pleasant tomorrow!

#LongLiveThePuddle
#PuddlePower

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1 hour ago, GeorgeFernell said:

Because Hydroid was my 2nd ever Prime frame, right after volt.
Because I got him over 6 years ago and he is 5 forma.
Because over the years he has become completely incapable of doing anything the game requires you to do.
Because the only way to "Main" him is to sit in a lvl 40 defence/survival in a puddle.
And at that point you are playing dress up with dolls and not playing the game.
Which you are perfectly allowed to do but that removes your right to complain about actual GAME design.

Don't get me wrong, I like 3.5/5 of these changes. The buffs to rain, surge and tentacles are all great. 

The passive I'm slightly not a fan of because it kills the possibility of corrosive being un-nerfed for all the other frames, but it's still a good change, basically. 

They just could have done all this, *and* kept puddle (maybe a faster puddle), and Hydroid would be in an even better position. And if people didn't like it, they could just subsume pillage or nourish or gloom over it like they do every other frame with an ability they don't like.

Like, does Plunder even look good to you? Because Vex Armour but lower numbers with living-enemy-with-status-in-LOS requirements doesn't sound good to me. 

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Gosh...nobody cared this much when corrosion changed and destroyed hydroid the first time....I personally love the new ability, love that it's part armor strip, armor buff, and a damage buff all in one, and continues to pair with the passive and other abilities to synergize really well...puddle was unique...but it has no real purpose other than low level shenanigans imo

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Not a hydroid main but I am kinda sad when seeing undertow go. There are a bajillion of tweaks that makes undertow useful while "being less annoying". You could make it so that enemies got corrosive proc'd when affected by undertow. You could make it so that when teammate shoot the puddle it counts as headshots (a bit like mag's 2).

This is the example of a "useful but generic" warframe. If you are to make an armor health tank who could proc corrosive, saryn and tank frames who subsumed hydroid's 1 could do the job. You CAN'T tell those people who don't play hydroid to play it with this kit. Don't get me wrong, I agree that hydroid is significantly stronger than what he was before. However I also agree that Hydroid lost his iconic ability and he isn't that special among all other cc frames.

Also with the logic that "stationary gameplay = less fun", I should prepare for the rework of Mesa's 4 or Nyx's 4, to name a few abilities out there

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4 hours ago, (PSN)aarott said:

Don't get me wrong, I like 3.5/5 of these changes. The buffs to rain, surge and tentacles are all great. 

The passive I'm slightly not a fan of because it kills the possibility of corrosive being un-nerfed for all the other frames, but it's still a good change, basically. 

They just could have done all this, *and* kept puddle (maybe a faster puddle), and Hydroid would be in an even better position. And if people didn't like it, they could just subsume pillage or nourish or gloom over it like they do every other frame with an ability they don't like.

Like, does Plunder even look good to you? Because Vex Armour but lower numbers with living-enemy-with-status-in-LOS requirements doesn't sound good to me. 

Yeah this whole thing is just degenerated into discussion of whether puddle is good or bad, which it is not, either good or fun, and I will die on that hill xP

I suppose the more fruitful discussion would be: is the rework good?
My answer is: meh... I really don't think the "pirate" theme makes any sense in Warframe. I would rather have abyss summoner, with some Cuthulhu vibes to it. Maybe placing a stationary puddle or better - OPEN THE DEPTH OF THE ABYSS - would be a cool ability instead of his 2. Ultimately I thinks it will be a matter of numbers: is Pillage, khm, sorry, pLUnDeR good enough to be a "not die" button. All Warframes need one nowadays and, on paper, it looks to be planned as such. If it succeeds, I will be happy with rework! Because lets be real DE has very little clue of what they are doing so I accept mediocre as a best case scenario.

And yes, the state of corrosive is exactly as you say, but look around, nearly all dmg types are useless, so Ill accept this as at least a way to use corrosive

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On 2023-09-30 at 1:25 AM, Lancars said:

Undertow tactical and fun to use

Okay, I'm neutral to the puddle, but see... this is where you're getting silly in this.

Because we have actual recorded evidence of just as many, if not more, people saying it's definitely not fun to use. That it was slow, and boring, that dragging enemies in simply meant that missions ended slowly, or that other players were standing around waiting for Hydroid to do something.

It had no ability to defend an objective, it had the slowest scaling damage in the game, and even the interaction with Corroding Barrage that stripped armour from enemies in the puddle for massive kill potential was completely removed from it.

The only, and I mean the only, tactical use of his puddle I have seen in years of people trying to get Hydroid reworked was with the Arca Titron slam. Where you would charge up the slam, go into puddle mode, drag enemies into the middle and then double-jump out of it to unleash the slam and the Electric procs would deal massive damage due to quadratic scaling from every enemy hitting every other enemy.

And that was so slow that it wasn't viable as a kill tactic in any kind of Solo setting either, certainly not one like Survival where the enemies would literally slow down and stop charging in while you were a puddle, so you couldn't build up big nukes.

Compare that to an ability that absolutely must have you priming the enemies with Status to use, where using Tidal Surge to group up enemies and proc that essential first Corrosive Status on them, or Barrage to stun-lock them, or Tentacle Swarm to help defend a location while doing the same thing, where any of those are required first to actually achieve any result with Plunder. It has the same kind of reliance as Grendel with his abilities requiring enemies to scale. Same with this, it requires lots of enemies and lots of procs to get the full potential.

Is a one-button to simultaneously gain massive weapon damage, high amounts of Armour, and make any existing Corrosive procs permanent, a bit 'easy to use'? Sure it is.

Not saying it isn't.

But, is getting 10 procs of Corrosive on every single enemy in range, in order to do that one button press, without killing all those enemies first, actually something that requires a bit of tactical use of his other abiliites? Yeah, it kind of is.

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Considering that each and every Warframe is powered by void stuff to make their abilities do what they do, seeing the "corrosive seawater" thingmajig deal get amplified by it does seem in line with how gimmicks get escalated. after all, the Plains of Duviri were conjured up with intent from the titular storybook- an entire world in the void. why wouldn't corrosive seawater get laced with void stuff to melt away Grineer armor to 0 then and there?

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6 hours ago, GeorgeFernell said:

Because over the years he has become completely incapable of doing anything the game requires you to do.
Because the only way to "Main" him is to sit in a lvl 40 defence/survival in a puddle.
And at that point you are playing dress up with dolls and not playing the game.
Which you are perfectly allowed to do but that removes your right to complain about actual GAME design.

what makes you think thats not a valid part of the game? what do you say is that GAME design and what kind of content do you think people need to play to critique that. this strikes me as elitist; not everyone plays the same way you do and that doesnt remove their right to voice their thoughts. basically just respect other peoples opinions man idk its not that hard 

1 hour ago, GeorgeFernell said:

Yeah this whole thing is just degenerated into discussion of whether puddle is good or bad, which it is not, either good or fun, and I will die on that hill xP

I suppose the more fruitful discussion would be: is the rework good?
My answer is: meh... I really don't think the "pirate" theme makes any sense in Warframe. I would rather have abyss summoner, with some Cuthulhu vibes to it. Maybe placing a stationary puddle or better - OPEN THE DEPTH OF THE ABYSS - would be a cool ability instead of his 2. Ultimately I thinks it will be a matter of numbers: is Pillage, khm, sorry, pLUnDeR good enough to be a "not die" button. All Warframes need one nowadays and, on paper, it looks to be planned as such. If it succeeds, I will be happy with rework! Because lets be real DE has very little clue of what they are doing so I accept mediocre as a best case scenario.

And yes, the state of corrosive is exactly as you say, but look around, nearly all dmg types are useless, so Ill accept this as at least a way to use corrosive

this is true it has, but this discussion isnt only about keeping puddle or not, its about preventing the most generic and bland reworks. you even agree that plunder is unoriginal! if we keep yelling at each other to no end DE isnt gonna take any advice and we'll be stuck with a bad ability and then NEITHER of us will be happy. 

but i think the reason everyones arguing with you is that you keep saying puddle is objectively not fun, and youre not listening when people say they they think it is. you can die on your hill if you want but there are other hills with other people and your hill is no more or less valid than theirs. you ARE right to say the ability is bad, which we all agree on, but people still like it in spite of that fact 

so what if we fixed the ability. make it faster (similar to or faster than prowl), raise the camera to the normal height so youre not looking from IN the floor, keep enemies trapped inside instead of spitting them out when you move away, increase damage scaling slightly and have corrosive proc when enemies are inside to strip armor. slap the ability onto tidal surge as a hold, give it a new or combined name, and you never have to actually use it if you dont want. the problem with puddle is that its mechanics are too outdated to keep up with the current state of the game, NOT that its not a fun ability. this way, if you still dont find it fun you dont have to use it, and for those of us who do, we can build around it to keep up better with the meta. this change would absolutely not still be the slowest thing in the world as tidal surge will hopefully be a good movement ability, and as others have said, things like nyx orb, mesa, ivara, and more exist where gameplay isnt going at 100 m/s 

now im not a game developer but these things dont seem that hard to implement. as i was saying the bigger issue is DE being lazy on this whole thing. undertow aside, the rest of the rework isnt exactly inspired. you say its just "meh", which even with our differences says that its probably not fantastic. id love to discuss the rest of the rework with everyone, because this should be a place to tell DE what we think and work out ideas instead of telling people they cant enjoy certain aspects of the game because you yourself dont like it 

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8 hours ago, (PSN)aarott said:

They did this with the water character in The First Descendant, Valby. In fact the puddles were practically her passive, attached to all her abilities.  Her big puddle ability was a teleport - big puddle where she jumps in, and big puddle where she jumps out. That would have been cool. 

https://imgur.com/a/qUqQo2W <- an imgur gallery with all of Valby's abilities

Also, come one, you gotta admit that if they made it kong-cloud levels of fast, but you have to be on the ground, but you get to pick up enemies, that would have been fun too. You could make race car noises as you picked up all the enemies on the map and dropped them at your teams kill zone. Or maybe you could taxi battery carriers to your extractors when they're being too slow like Grendel can, that'd be funny. 

Except it doesnt work like puddle. It doesnt pull enemies completely in and obscures them.  Teammates dont shoot the puddle to deal damage to the enemies inside. It doesnt make Valby completely immune to damage for the duration.

It's just a damage over time area on the ground and would be no different if it was simply poison theme'd (which there is a character that does the same ground effect (in a smaller area)  that is poison theme'd

 

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7 hours ago, (PSN)aarott said:

Don't get me wrong, I like 3.5/5 of these changes. The buffs to rain, surge and tentacles are all great. 

The passive I'm slightly not a fan of because it kills the possibility of corrosive being un-nerfed for all the other frames, but it's still a good change, basically. 

They just could have done all this, *and* kept puddle (maybe a faster puddle), and Hydroid would be in an even better position. And if people didn't like it, they could just subsume pillage or nourish or gloom over it like they do every other frame with an ability they don't like.

Like, does Plunder even look good to you? Because Vex Armour but lower numbers with living-enemy-with-status-in-LOS requirements doesn't sound good to me. 


Lower numbers than vex armour, but way easier to use and doesn't require you taking tons of damage.

Doesnt vex armour REQUIRE you taking damage from enemies, and enemies usually deal damage in LoS and have to be alive as well right?

the statuses are baked into everywhere on his kit so its not like you have to go out of your way for it either.

does 1k armour and 300% corrosive weapon damage NOT sound good enough to you? Would you not equip a mod on your warframe that said "1k armour, 300% corrosive damage to weapon " ?

Yeah Vex armour numbers are much better, but that's basically all he has. Buff his armour/health with 2 , then increase his damage by taking damage with 3, run around with a gun to do his damage. As generic as they come when it comes to actual meta gameplay with him and is gunplay heavy/

hydroids kit flows and synergies  are way better now, with 3 abilities + passive directly combining  on top of each other.  

I  have played a ton of high level warframe and I rarely rarely rarely see a hydroid, and when I do, they are DEFINITELY not just sitting there doing puddle.

puddle is memorable, but having a much faster puddle would cause other issues (what if a hydroid just eats 70% of the spawns and runs away during survival , messing up the spawns and the teammates are just forced to extract or chase after the hydroid the whole time)

Is there any other warframe that would be able to gather and run away with enemies like that?

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Bring back puddle. Allow players to shoot into the puddle to damage enemies like zephyr's tornadoes and add some synergy between his 2 and 3 to reduce energy cost and give some mobility. Maybe buff the base movement speed of puddle a little bit as well.

Edited by chrismasterski
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В 28.09.2023 в 18:37, [DE]Juice сказал:

Undertow:

  • This ability is being removed and replaced with Plunder.
    • Undertow is an ability which we feel makes Hydroid a bit less fun to play as, or play with. There are two main reasons we decided to replace this ability:
      • It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement.
      • It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill.

Meh, one of the most funny skill (like Vauban's Bounce) and it will be removed :(
Why not to conect with Tidal Surg, and add tap-hold mechanic?

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On 2023-09-28 at 12:37 PM, [DE]Juice said:

Will now hold enemies in a steadier position, making it easier to eliminate enemies locked down by Tentacles.

You know, time will tell that Caliban Khora Titania players also want this same mechanic

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1 hour ago, MistaDrew2 said:

this is true it has, but this discussion isnt only about keeping puddle or not, its about preventing the most generic and bland reworks. you even agree that plunder is unoriginal! if we keep yelling at each other to no end DE isnt gonna take any advice and we'll be stuck with a bad ability and then NEITHER of us will be happy. 

now im not a game developer but these things dont seem that hard to implement. as i was saying the bigger issue is DE being lazy on this whole thing. undertow aside, the rest of the rework isnt exactly inspired. you say its just "meh", which even with our differences says that its probably not fantastic. id love to discuss the rest of the rework with everyone, because this should be a place to tell DE what we think and work out ideas instead of telling people they cant enjoy certain aspects of the game because you yourself dont like it 

Yes I do, but I have come to terms with accepting a lower level of quality and being less idealistic/hopeful. ( I was once Nyx main )

And realistically, the only thing we can hope for now are number changes, there is zero chance that any substantial change will come now that rework has been announced and  demonstrated.

1 hour ago, MistaDrew2 said:

what makes you think thats not a valid part of the game? what do you say is that GAME design and what kind of content do you think people need to play to critique that. this strikes me as elitist; not everyone plays the same way you do and that doesnt remove their right to voice their thoughts. basically just respect other peoples opinions man idk its not that hard...

...this should be a place to tell DE what we think and work out ideas instead of telling people they cant enjoy certain aspects of the game because you yourself dont like it 

Well, lets just say that I'm still traumatized because, I'm pretty sure that "puddle people" are the same people because of who I have to suffer scrolling through "vector pad" on the daily basis. So I have very acute and irritable reaction to people defending "haha, its funnnyyyyyyyy" things to remain in the game as opposed to optimization.

But ok for the sake of discussion, with minimal changes I would love to see the following:

1) To have more play with Status effect "cleansing" on Hydroid. Since purifying/healing power of water and all that. Augment for 1 instead of bashing viral, like wo don't have enough of that, should cleanse status effects of allies in the area. Also please make it actual AREA OF EFFECT, not the random hits, leave that as just visual effect :|
2) Slamming enemies into walls with 2 should leave them on the floor for some time before they start coming up, its a tsunami wave for gods sake.
3) Rename the 1 and 3 abilities to something else. He is Hydroid, not Piratoid.    *yes, I'm petty like that, fight me!

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Everyone that is sad to see the puddle go should remember warframe is a high mobility game with a lot of visual information, and turning into an immobile puddle is just going to remain very incompatible with it. 

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On 2023-09-29 at 12:20 AM, Lancars said:

Sorry but i prefer being able to dolphin dive with undertow. Run around and jump and and out of it to surprise enemies and silence specific enemies that would cause issues like the wardens in rescue. and No i did not AFK in the puddle like other people i used it more actively.

But now its gonna be replaced with a very boring looking move.

This is my main issue.  I will miss puddle but I wouldn't have minded so much if it was replaced with something a lot more cool/fun to use.  Plunder is basically just a stat stick which Hydroid's whole rework can be summed up as.

On 2023-09-29 at 2:43 AM, (PSN)ApoX95 said:

quite the strong vocabulary for a useful rework of an outdated, classic warframe. 

I guess this is what somebody calls 'ungrateful'. keep some perspective and don't disrespect the devs who even make this wonderful game possible.

When someone hands you something that you have issues with it doesn't matter if there's some good in there.  You're not obligated to enjoy it or accept it.  The idea that someone should be grateful over such a situation is just peak old parenting.  Stop simping for companies.

On 2023-09-29 at 2:49 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Eh. Reworking Hydroid around Corrosive is a far better play than I thought they’d go for.

It's only going to work because his Corrosive is better than standard Corrosive.  Regardless it's a very weird play to make the frame who's always been known for CC with water to become a weapon element dispenser based off of a singular mod.

On 2023-09-29 at 2:49 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

His 3 adding personal survivability, making his armour strip permanent, and also adding damage to his weapons, also augmenting it makes it a team heal? Not bad, to be honest.

Plunder's armor portion is the exact same thing as Atlas's passive and we already know that doesn't make Atlas a tank.  Hydroid has much less armor even in his prime compared to base Atlas.  It's not going to make his survivability that much better.  if I was looking for armor strip there would be better frames, especially total defense strips.  Having all of these effects rolled into one ability doesn't change that it's a boring ability that doesn't make up for the actual gameplay that's being removed.

On 2023-09-29 at 2:49 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

With his 4 now holding and not flailing, he has way better kill potential, his 2 has better CC for abusing that too, and his 1 now just being a solid 1 cast to initiate? Could be a lot worse for us.

If I was looking for suspend to set up for kills there are better frames for that.  I don't think they did anything to improve his 1's targeting.  All they did was remove the charge to have it be base max range cast.  Which isn't as big of an improvement as you'd think

On 2023-09-29 at 2:49 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I agree that bundling his puddle into Tidal Surge would have been good. Buuut… I don’t think the majority of Warframe players will even notice it’s gone.

Isn't an argument/debatable point.

On 2023-09-29 at 6:41 AM, Rathalio said:

If Plunder was only giving armor and stripping enemies, ok it wouldn't so be great even though it would still be a decent ability. But it does more than, the damage buff for weapons is very welcome on Hydroid kit. You are now either suspending enemies in tentacles or pushing them face to the ground with your 1st ability. Then you have to use your weapons to kill them. Which definitely works well and makes sense with the kit overall.

The problem isn't that Plunder isn't a functional/useful ability.  It's that it's boring and doesn't look fun to interact with.  Not to mention it doesn't at all fit Hydroid beyond the name alone.  It's a clear case of functional>flavor.

On 2023-09-29 at 6:41 AM, Rathalio said:

Undertow sucked and never had any practical use other than sometimes dodging stuff which can also be dodged with Tidal surge. That would be lying to say it was more than that. Yes you could be invulnerable, but at the trade off of being useless if you used the ability.

Just actually making stuff up.  You could puddle to cut off choke points/cover objectives.  You could steal enemies into your puddle and then corrosive barrage yourself or cast your 4 to suspend your specific enemies.  It was also just stupid fun to be a sentient puddle that could tackle enemies with surge and drown them for a bit.  Or splashing myself on allies to heal them a bit.

On 2023-09-29 at 7:14 AM, Waeleto said:

Can't believe people are hating on the hydroid rework and defending the PUDDLE out of everything, that garbage ability held hydroid back for YEARS now it's finally gone 
DE did what's best for hydroid his kit now is a lot better and has so much synergy, i'm sorry you lost your afk tool but this is for the best 

It wasn't a garbage ability, you just didn't like it.  Puddle could've been folded into surge and he still could've gotten your boring stat stick ability for his new third.  No one is missing it for it's afk potential nor was that a reason DE sited for it's removal.  Why even comment on such topics if you're just going to actually ignore the feedback people are giving.  I'm glad you like his new direction.  Let us who don't talk about why.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Okay, I'm neutral to the puddle, but see... this is where you're getting silly in this.

Because we have actual recorded evidence of just as many, if not more, people saying it's definitely not fun to use. That it was slow, and boring, that dragging enemies in simply meant that missions ended slowly, or that other players were standing around waiting for Hydroid to do something.

And they could've made an effort to try and make Puddle a better ability that would satisfy all the meta chasers.  Instead they chose to alienate those of us who liked puddle and what you could do with it.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

It had no ability to defend an objective, it had the slowest scaling damage in the game, and even the interaction with Corroding Barrage that stripped armour from enemies in the puddle for massive kill potential was completely removed from it.

I mean that's just wrong, unless your definition of defending was just creating a 3d space that prevents enemies from shooting inside.  But that's oddly specific and incredibly limiting for no real reason.  You'd catch so many other CC tools in the wrong for that.  The damage could've easily been changed to percent based if that's what DE wanted out of the ability.  But like many other abilities in the game I don't think the fact that damage is present on the ability means it was meant for killing.  Also even though DE removed the ability to insta kill with corrosive puddle it was still a useful combo.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

The only, and I mean the only, tactical use of his puddle I have seen in years of people trying to get Hydroid reworked was with the Arca Titron slam. Where you would charge up the slam, go into puddle mode, drag enemies into the middle and then double-jump out of it to unleash the slam and the Electric procs would deal massive damage due to quadratic scaling from every enemy hitting every other enemy.

That just sounds like you're basing something's ability to be useful based off of killing.  That's not the only reason an ability could be good/useful.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Compare that to an ability that absolutely must have you priming the enemies with Status to use, where using Tidal Surge to group up enemies and proc that essential first Corrosive Status on them, or Barrage to stun-lock them, or Tentacle Swarm to help defend a location while doing the same thing, where any of those are required first to actually achieve any result with Plunder. It has the same kind of reliance as Grendel with his abilities requiring enemies to scale. Same with this, it requires lots of enemies and lots of procs to get the full potential.

That's not the gameplay I was looking for in Hydroid.

2 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Is a one-button to simultaneously gain massive weapon damage, high amounts of Armour, and make any existing Corrosive procs permanent, a bit 'easy to use'? Sure it is.

Not saying it isn't.

But, is getting 10 procs of Corrosive on every single enemy in range, in order to do that one button press, without killing all those enemies first, actually something that requires a bit of tactical use of his other abiliites? Yeah, it kind of is.

You're just misunderstanding the issue here.  The push back against Hydroid's rework isn't based on functionality or viability.  It's that they're changing Hydroid into something that isn't really recognizable or fun for us.  It's a classic case of making something viable at the cost of making it less unique/interesting.

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It's so weird people want to keep Undertow on the grounds of it being 'Unique'. Like yeah the alternative is apparently now Hydroid is 'Boring', but if like 1 part of a Warframes kit is what makes them 'Iconic' and it's a slow, invulnerable, true DOT attack, I can't help but feel like that should be grounds of them looking into the rework.

It's like if DE decided to get rid of Banshee's Soundquake and in response we get tpeople demanding it back because it's fun when they stand in one spot after pressing a button.

'Just Make it Faster/Stronger'

I'm sorry, are you ASKING for Warframe Devs who have explicitly been against Automated Invincible strats, to the point of nerfing the whole Specter system as a whole, to instead make it so that a Invincible, True Damage Over Time, with no enemy limit and ability to drag into the water, is now relevant in the current game?

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It's weird to see people make it seem like the puddle was the only thing iconic about Hydroid. Like it was One of The Abilities of him, but unless Mesa who other 3 abilities literally have no visual difference, the barrage, tentacle and the water wave was just as iconic for him no?

Like was i the only one that didn't just see Hydroid as a Puddle?

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4 minutes ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

It's weird to see people make it seem like the puddle was the only thing iconic about Hydroid. Like it was One of The Abilities of him, but unless Mesa who other 3 abilities literally have no visual difference, the barrage, tentacle and the water wave was just as iconic for him no?

Like was i the only one that didn't just see Hydroid as a Puddle?

Personally I liked his full kit as well. His puddle stands out, but standing in a harsh storm while it knocks people around, spawning tentacles everywhere, or rushing along corridors is pretty fun too.

Will have to see what the changes are like and what we can do with them, but puddle stands out as one of those abilities that didn’t need to be changed too much and because it behaves differently it was fun to use as an alternative; simplification and standardisation can easily run counter to the concept of different and nuanced, and if the changes are aimed at a bunch of players who complained about “Viability” while they wield overkill AoE and go out of their way to design their builds so that their gameplay has practically no nuance to it, then it’s on a path to some boring-ass gameplay with few alternatives

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