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Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: Hydroid Rework


[DE]Juice
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45 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I really don't see it, water cleanses and cools, it doesn't dissolve metal. If you get acid on you the first thing you do is rinse with lots of water. Acid and Viruses are the opposite of water, in many ways.

The water-frame becoming the "removes all armor instantly via acid and procs everything up with viral-frame" just doesn't fit with the theme at all.

Water can be acidic, the pH of water is a measurement of how acidic it is. And the lower the pH the more corrosive it generally is. 

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It's really sad, while fixing the biggest problems with it by fixing tidal surge's enemy holding capabilities, it really does seem like they took one of Hydroid's most iconic, and unique, abilities away.

Of all the things to reconsider, I really don't care how "strong" whatever they changed it to is. The real problems with it were because of Hydroid's overall lack of ability to finish and kill, which weren't inherently the puddle's fault. It was a strange adherence to his abilities dealing Impact and Magnetic, which the rework proposes to remove, so instead of doing the rework all at once... maybe do it in two batches?
 

Just leave undertow on for a test period with the changes in place, before giving him a power that feels like it was a forced Helminth overwrite?

Worst case, treat it like Grendel's ability if they're really deadset on the removal of "enemy denial", which really is, and was, and always will be, a problem with how the enemies are counted as still alive for the purposes of defense waves, which potentially remains an issue for so many other powers out there, even still. I would love if powers like Garuda's totem didn't hold up the timer. The game has become about killing crowds, holding 1-5 enemies over across waves really needs to not be such a big deal.

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Il y a 1 heure, Traumtulpe a dit :

I really don't see it, water cleanses and cools, it doesn't dissolve metal. If you get acid on you the first thing you do is rinse with lots of water. Acid and Viruses are the opposite of water, in many ways.

The water-frame becoming the "removes all armor instantly via acid and procs everything up with viral-frame" just doesn't fit with the theme at all.

Seawater corrosion is very high : it corrodes metal five times faster than fresh water and ten times faster than air. It's not only sodium cloride (electrochemical corrosion) but also sulfates and bacteria.

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This is getting a bit ridiculous. Hydroid literally dissolves 100% of enemies combat armor instantly - not even the strongest acids used in chemistry are *that* strong. And you guys are telling me that jells perfectly with him being the water / ocean frame because salt water. Have you ever been in to the ocean? Have you tasted sea water? Did you notice your skin *not* falling of your body during a swim?

Ocean water is cool, pleasant, clean. You don't get diseases or acid burns from it. You just don't.

Hydroid is *far* better at dissolving metal and diseasing his enemies than Saryn with this rework. 100% armor strip vs 80%, 10 viral procs vs 1. Salt water > nerve agent + acid.

Edited by Traumtulpe
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I'm gonna say the biggest problem with this rework is the general playerbase is hellbent on wanting the puddle to be removed, and how many of them really play this frame? When you ask most players their opinion, they would generally respond "This ability doesn't belong to the current game" and can't come up with something else different to justify it's removal.

On 2023-09-29 at 1:37 AM, [DE]Juice said:

It forces the player to be stationary, while many objectives rely on regular movement.

The ability still lets you move around slowly or use Tidal Surge to move faster and incredibly energy cost efficient, maybe just improve the movement speed of it then.

On 2023-09-29 at 1:37 AM, [DE]Juice said:

It absorbs enemies without instantly killing them, which can lead to instances of hiding enemies that a teammate was trying to kill.

People have already mentioned teammates can shoot the puddle and speed up the process to kill enemies, make it visible to other players.

On 2023-09-29 at 1:37 AM, [DE]Juice said:

Plunder:

  • A new ability added to Hydroid’s third ability slot.
  • All enemies in range will have Corrosive Status Effects remove their armor permanently, increasing Hydroid’s armor and granting bonus Corrosive damage to weapons.
    • This ability is stronger based on the number of Corrosive Status Effects applied to the enemies affected by Plunder.
    • This means with a full stack of Corrosive Status, their Armor will be removed permanently.
On 2023-09-29 at 1:37 AM, [DE]Juice said:

Hydroid does not need to apply all, or even any, of the Corrosive Status Effects on an enemy. As long as Hydroid has damaged the enemy, the Corrosive Status Effects can be applied from any source and will receive the benefit.

The Plunder ability looks generic and redundant when it doesn't even have to be used as the passive condition. The self armor and corrosive damage buffs aren't gonna be enough to replace the invulnerability when turning in and the cc when dipping out of the puddle. And 10 stacks of corrosive is incredibly easy to apply if it can be from any source of your own so I don't even see the purpose of it at all.

On 2023-09-29 at 6:19 PM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Many Hydroid players liked Undertow a lot. I mostly use it only for survivability purposes, giving the time to cast CC abilities while invulnerable and then rise to kill when shields are full recharged. Now, we will need to focus on armor tanking, but without another kind of damage reduction, this change will not be enough.

On 2023-09-29 at 8:37 PM, CapinPotato9711 said:

ide say the comunity pressure on removing the 3 influensed this choice greatly, but as someone who put time and effort into playing a space pirate, i have to say this, again.  its realy just to do with play style. the puddle makes hydroid exell at dealing with eleates such as mania and litches due to high durability and the capability to avoid lift (the puddle can activate even lifted), which usually would be a death sentence. and if you add the capablity they will get with this rework, then they will exell at this role even more since they can actually deal with armor without needing unaru. if the puddle were added as a tap hold function to one of the new abilitys, it would allow old mains of hydroid to use what they know along with the new abilityes, rather then an ability being removing simply because other players cant be bothered to experement with diferent ways of playing. 

23 hours ago, ldegroodt115 said:

Undertow: bummer to see Undertow removed, especially now with passive-enhanced corrosive means it would actually be effective with Tempest Barrage full-stripping again... it was kind of a meme ability but very unique. I'm touched by the seeing others' support for keeping this, lol

You know what I mean?

 

11 hours ago, Zabyr said:

Tidal Surge
(//_-) And why was it bad to throw enemies in the direction of movement?

1.gif

Okay, they removed it. OK. But what instead, corrosion again? Have you eaten too much acid and are feeling sick?
My question is, what, it would have been impossible for Tidal Wave to steal armor from enemies and then there would have been no need to remove Ebb Tide. Has such an obvious thought ever occurred to you? Where are we going, we're potboilers. I hope you have reduced the energy consumption from 50 to 25 or 15. This has been requested as often as charging. Have you read the reviews?

Something about this, I've noticed a lot of people really really hate ragdoll in this game for petty reasons like disrupting their personal game play flow in pubs, and it might be the reason they nerfed the old blast knockdown and ragdoll effect, which is why we can't have fun things.

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Well good riddance to 'Undertow'. To me personally, this ability was tied with Inaros 'Devour'/'Sandstorm' for most boring ability in the game.

My only gripe with the rework is that Hydroid (still) seems to be very reliant on augment mods. Want your 'Corroding Barrage' to not be useless against other factions besides Grineer? Gotta use 'Viral Tempest'. Want to heal yourself and support allies? Gotta use 'Rousing Plunder'. Want to simply create more loot for yourself and allies? Thats a no-brainer, so still gotta use 'Pilfering Swarm'. 

If Hydroid is supposed to be pirate-themed and the new 'Plunder' ability is supposed to reinforce that idea, then I personally think 'Pilfering Swarm' should have just been made part of the base ability. Also, as someone else pointed out, the new 'Plunder' ability doesn't work like Chroma's 'Vex Armor' where it refreshes the timer and keeps the buffs strength after recasting when it is still up. Instead it just completely resets, which might causes you to get a much lower value like seen in the stream. I hope this can be changed so 'Plunder' works more like Chroma's 'Vex Armor' when recasting.

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The removal of undertow is doubly sour after playing The First Descendant beta and trying their puddle fighter, Valby. She was like a better more nuke focused Hydroid with some elements of Yareli in there too, and basically all her abilities spread big puddles that did DOT and reduced enemy elemental resistances. I made an imgur album with her different abilities here https://imgur.com/a/qUqQo2W

I was wondering if maybe they'd make Hydroid a bit more 'put puddles everywhere' rather than 'be the puddle'. But now it turns out they're taking away the puddle in it's entirety, and I'm sad.

I'd maybe forgive Plunder if it applied buffs to the team, but it's a purely selfish buff that'll barely function if you're playing alongside another armour stripper. 

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2 hours ago, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Seawater corrosion is very high : it corrodes metal five times faster than fresh water and ten times faster than air. It's not only sodium cloride (electrochemical corrosion) but also sulfates and bacteria.

thank you, yes, i was trying to get this point across

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2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

This is getting a bit ridiculous. Hydroid literally dissolves 100% of enemies combat armor instantly - not even the strongest acids used in chemistry are *that* strong. And you guys are telling me that jells perfectly with him being the water / ocean frame because salt water. Have you ever been in to the ocean? Have you tasted sea water? Did you notice your skin *not* falling of your body during a swim?

Ocean water is cool, pleasant, clean. You don't get diseases or acid burns from it. You just don't.

Hydroid is *far* better at dissolving metal and diseasing his enemies than Saryn with this rework. 100% armor strip vs 80%, 10 viral procs vs 1. Salt water > nerve agent + acid.

I think you're taking the theme a little bit too seriously lmao, chill

again, we're playing a game where frames can summon shadow clones, can raise the dead, can summon a kraken, can literally eat people, etc. I think for this game, water immediately dissolving armor isn't too out of this world.

if you don't jive with my seawater/saltwater theory maybe you can say the water is not actually water and is actually a very acidic chemical, having a very low pH or something.

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8 часов назад, R4bbit0le сказал:

Honestly Undertow just felt like Hydroid was a bit dead in the water and his new kit seems to work swimmingly. 

I do agree that the new changes are great for the most part and I do not protest against the addition of Plunder over Undertow, Hydroid can keep both. Undertow is actually quite the opposite of "dead in the water", a way to survive steel path without Pillage/Gloom. The comfort of invisibility and invincibility for a dirty cheap price. It actually reminds me of Cloud Walker, this ability was so underwhelming before and look at it now. Devs could have just replaced it, but didn't because it was a big part of Wukong's identity. Undertow for Hydroid is like Cloud Walker for Wukong, I can't imagine the two apart.

7 часов назад, Waeleto сказал:

Undertow held hydroid back for year and now he's finally free from it, let it go

Simply no. What actually held him back are abilities that did more bad than good, flinging and ragdolling enemies around, not working properly despite the fixes, meta shift leaving CC behind and Hydroid is a purely CC frame, and a cherry on top was Khora, a warframe better than Hydroid in every aspect, who got her own "Pilfering Swarm" augment for the ability that is Very simmilar to Tentacle Swarm but Much more convinient, practical and functional.

Edited by Quinesis
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2 часа назад, Zre6 сказал:

I've noticed a lot of people really really hate ragdoll in this game for petty reasons like disrupting their personal game play flow in pubs

People hate ragdoll because a lot of abilities cannot target ragdolled enemies. For that same reason, adding trauma clamps to the Undercroft was a bad idea.

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On 2023-09-28 at 6:37 PM, [DE]Juice said:

Plunder

Why did you guys put a simple "stack detonator" on a separate ability button?  This ability's effect can be added to Surge, Undertow or Swarm.  

Replacing Undertow with this is just eh.   Especially because Undertow always can save you....and Plunder needs enemies and their armor. If there is a single strong enemy, you gonna have trouble.

Anyway, a combination of Undertow and Plunder would be better IMO.  You keep Puddle and put armor steal on it. Done. 

 

 

Also, why Corrosive?  PoE water deals Magnetic.  In some other areas its electrified (Grineer ships) or poisoned (Uranus sharkwing segments).     

IMO, Hydroid's water (Undertow and Swarm) should conduct and boost all elements.    Similar to Zephyr's Tornadoes.  Shooting one tentacle with electric damage would send electric wave through all tentacles.   

 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, Quinesis said:

All in all, removing Undertow completely seems like such a waste.

It's a passive, immortality ability that lets you slowly damage enemies at no risk to yourself.  It's boring, and it's impossible to balance.  An ability that lets you suck up and kill enemies while remaining invulnerable isn't good for the health of the game.  It's like Limbo's binary kit: feast or famine, and a balancing nightmare that DE keeps kicking down the road with nerf after nerf after nerf.  Undertow embodies this on a much smaller scale admittedly, and it can't really grief allies as much as Limbo, but it's still impossible to balance.

 

I'm cautiously optimistic about the Hydroid rework, though what I've read of it makes it seem somewhat underwhelming.  Still, if he ends up being even a bit more playable and useful in high level content, I'll finally end up purchasing his totally sick deluxe skin.  Gotta reward DE for reworks somehow, even if they're not amazing.

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4 hours ago, Zre6 said:

I'm gonna say the biggest problem with this rework is the general playerbase is hellbent on wanting the puddle to be removed, and how many of them really play this frame? When you ask most players their opinion, they would generally respond "This ability doesn't belong to the current game" and can't come up with something else different to justify it's removal. 

thank you, thats what i was saying too! what im gathering around here is that everyone that actually likes and really plays hydroid wants to keep undertow, just change its mechanics and how its implemented to make it smother and faster and everyone else likes the rework because it turns him into yet another another nezha/wukong/saryn/ember/gara/gauss/you get the picture 

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#savethepuddle

And the more i think about it the less i like plunder, especially since you are reworking shield mechanichs and his shields values are ineherently more viable than his health so it makes no sense fpr him to get armor especially as he has no innate health regen

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Please listen to the people that like to play hydroid and give us some form of it be it when crouching or as a held 2 for invimcibility as survivability

And about the new third ability, i don't see the logic in an update where you make shield tanking more viable to give a frame that is shield heavy an armor giving ability, and an armor giving ability is kind of useless without innate ways of restoring health wich his kit doesn't have without augment

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28 minutes ago, (NSW)Yeyeg said:

Please listen to the people that like to play hydroid and give us some form of it be it when crouching or as a held 2 for invimcibility as survivability

And about the new third ability, i don't see the logic in an update where you make shield tanking more viable to give a frame that is shield heavy an armor giving ability, and an armor giving ability is kind of useless without innate ways of restoring health wich his kit doesn't have without augment

the thirds power restores health when it steals armor, and heals team mates in exp range

Edited by (PSN)Spider_Enigma
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I'm sorry but if the handful of Hydroid players are that attached to his puddle I don't think they're playing the same game as the entire rest of the playerbase. It's slow to move with, slow to kill, very energy inefficient, and good luck getting anyone to actually use it for healing.

And while the replacement seems redundant (why give an armor stripping ability to a frame that can full strop with Corrosive and all their other abilities?) it's still more practical than puddle in every way. Plus it's a minor weapon buff on top of everything.

And as for why give him an armor buff when they're changing shield gating: options. Shield gating still requires some modding/playstyle investment to make function especially as Hydroid has no way to directly restore shields. While running the augment means you're both more survivable to direct damage and have a way to heal back up. Personally I'll probably be running Arcane Blessing (indirectly buffed by the companion rework) with the Plunder Augment and no other HP/Shield/Armor mods.

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1.) I apologize if this is incorrect information and for my awful grammar.

From what I recall when the corrosive status effect was changed before to what it is now. I thought it was purposely capped at 80% armor reduction because bonus damage from corrosive versus armored enemies only worked if the target still had some armor left(?).

So wouldn't hydroid's new passive which allows corrosive status effects to reach 100% armor reduction then make his corrosive damage output actually weaker against those targets?

 

2.) Although I did not care that much for the Undertow puddle except for when using it to heal myself. When it was mentioned on the Dev stream that there was a small experiment about making it a ranged ability, this did intrigue me. Here are just a few thoughts on how it could work perhaps, but I know it'd probably be too much work to actually implement.

  • If we could get a ranged puddle ability I think it could be assigned on his 2 Tidal Surge. Press 2 for the movement Tidal Surge wave or Hold 2 for a Undertow puddle placed at the location the player is aiming at.

 

  • I think the issue about enemies not walking into the puddle without the player inside it could be fixed by having something similar to Octavia's 1 Resonator in the center. Thematically it would be like a Siren calling in enemies toward the puddle to drown them.

 

  • The issue of other players not liking hidden enemies inside the puddle, it probably could be handled similar to Yareli's 1 Sea Snares. Instead of sucking enemies under the puddle, enemies would by slowed entering the puddle and then immobilized using water globs over their heads  to drown them. It would still look as if a Siren lured them in to drown them with water but would keep the enemies visible for all. This effect could maybe even increase headshot damage against enemies.

One could say Hydroid already has similar functionality on his 4 Tentacle Swarm with the kraken holding/immobilizing enemies up in the rework. So maybe this kind of puddle wouldn't be needed, but there are cases of other CC frames having multiple Crowd Controlling AOE abilities regardless of them being a bit similar. Vauban has 2 CC abilities with Bastille having immobilize/armor strip while Vortex sucks everything together for better grouping. The difference between Hydroids Puddle and Kraken, could be that the Puddle is for setting up higher damage while Tentacle Swarm has its use for loot farming/wider radius. So I think having 2 AOE CC abilities on Hydroid would be acceptable.

 

3.) Plunder. I think it's cool we get a new ability.

  • It might be more pirate-like if this ability also caused enemies to drop more than just armor. Maybe it could have a single time chance of enemies dropping a few extra credits/ammo as well.

I'm a little concerned looking at Hydroid's stats especially his Prime. He seems to lean more toward shields than a health/armor tank. Even in the example gifs. of his reworked abilities he's being modded for shields instead of his health. Unless his base health is raised up with maybe his shields lowered to balance the change, I don't see a lot of help coming from the Armor Plunder will provide. 

  • Since we started getting Overguard use on some frames. I wonder if Hydroid getting Overguard when using Plunder instead of armor would work better with his low health pool. It's understandable though if DE maybe doesn't want to overuse Overguard on too many frames to keep it a special feature.

 

4.) Might be a little nice if while in the Tentacle Swarm pool area, the player receive a small movement speed while aiming buff. Looking at the gif. example the tentacles seem to be pretty spread out so a little movement speed would be nice while aiming/moving around between targets. 

 

I'm really looking forward to the entire upcoming update, and to see how Hydroid plays out.

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57 minutes ago, (NSW)Yeyeg said:

Please listen to the people that like to play hydroid and give us some form of it be it when crouching or as a held 2 for invimcibility as survivability

And about the new third ability, i don't see the logic in an update where you make shield tanking more viable to give a frame that is shield heavy an armor giving ability, and an armor giving ability is kind of useless without innate ways of restoring health wich his kit doesn't have without augment

You are asking for a slow, clunky, and deeply inactive ability to be preserved.  It's ugly, ineffective, and bad.  It basically serves one purpose in modern Warframe: invincibility while waiting at extraction so you can stare at your phone or alt tab as the rest of your inept party slowly trundles towards the green marker.

 

There are ways to make turning into liquid cool and exciting, but let's not pretend Hydroid's puddle ever achieved that.

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