Abyss of Dagath - Dev Workshop: System Changes and General Quality of Life

[Hexerin]

7 hours ago, 3mptylord said:

For consistency with ability-sources of health, armor and overguard? Why should Warframes that grant Overshield be capped at an unmoddable 1200 value? Why not have the Overshield cap be 1200 x Power Strength? 

And by "why not" I'm not wholly being facetious. My initial question was "is there room?" because I genuinely do not understand why Overshields has a cap when the other stats don't. If Wisp can give someone 300 x Power Strength health (which regularly reaches +3000 including Energy Conversion, Power Drain, Infusions and Void Buffs), and Styanax can give up to 15000 x Power Strength overguard - why can Trinity/Mag/Equinox/Caliban only give people up to 1200 (unmoddable) shields?

Especially since overshields don't gate, whereas overguard does.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

11 hours ago, 3mptylord said:

For consistency with ability-sources of health, armor and overguard? Why should Warframes that grant Overshield be capped at an unmoddable 1200 value? Why not have the Overshield cap be 1200 x Power Strength? 

And by "why not" I'm not wholly being facetious. My initial question was "is there room?" because I genuinely do not understand why Overshields has a cap when the other stats don't. If Wisp can give someone 300 x Power Strength health (which regularly reaches +3000 including Energy Conversion, Power Drain, Infusions and Void Buffs), and Styanax can give up to 15000 x Power Strength overguard - why can Trinity/Mag/Equinox/Caliban only give people up to 1200 (unmoddable) shields?

overguard is capped

[SteveCutler]

18 hours ago, Grimm said:

Ember will be heavily hurt by the shield gate changes. if her inferno bug that has been in the game since September last year is not fixed.

Are you talking about Steel Path endless missions going to level cap? For regular Steel Path missions she's fine. She's one of the more tanky frames in the game since she's lucky enough to have a damage reduction ability (Immolation).

[(PSN)rexis12]

19 hours ago, Derek_Icelord said:

The other 2 just have adds, and a token "hide" ability.

The other two also include:

Nira, who has a summon that can immediately upon summon restore up to 1/2 her health with no wind up.

Amar, who can chain all of his invincibility phases back to back with zero cool down, I'm not even joking when I say I have a clip where in the 5 minutes I was fighting him he spent 4 of it switching from one Invincibility phase to another.

 

Seriously if you're gonna make DA even more powerful, then don't make the fights themselves already artificially long with uninterruptible, to enter/proc I mean, Invincibility Phases.

[bluespart]

Probably too late to the party to have this added, but can we get the Deimos weapons pieces (Sporothrix & Arum Spinosa) added to one of the vendors as a pity system? The drop rates are just abysmal for those and it would probably be a welcome change for most.

[3mptylord]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

overguard is capped

Yes, at a moddable value of 15000 x Power Strength. This was mentioned - could you clarify your point?

[Grimm]

6 hours ago, SteveCutler said:

Are you talking about Steel Path endless missions going to level cap? For regular Steel Path missions she's fine. She's one of the more tanky frames in the game since she's lucky enough to have a damage reduction ability (Immolation).

her DR is inconsistent and you can be hit well its at its weakest often, all i do is play ember. 

[(PSN)aarott]

On 2023-10-06 at 3:45 AM, DebrisFlow said:

No amount of fixes or improvementes, like those here proposed, will cover the light year gap in complexity and action engagement with the true rest of the game.

I mean, if Kahl mode became co-op, I'd probably play it again to meme with friends and help new players. 

[SteveCutler]

1 hour ago, Grimm said:

her DR is inconsistent and you can be hit well its at its weakest often, all i do is play ember. 

Are you using her 4 (Inferno)? After casting that a few times, the heat bar starts ramping up so fast, that whenever Fire Blast is used the DR drops to 50% only for a split second before shooting right back to 90%. It's very consistent for me.

[(PSN)JaiWilliams767]

My biggest issue with nightwave is that the weapon augment mods are unobtainable. Some of these mods like 'Wild Frenzy', 'Efficient Beams' and 'Napalm Grenades' completely change your  weapon playstyle and create alternative ways to build and play. These rewards should be obtainable in Nora's shop or at least Baro's Inventory. It's not fair to newer players who started playing literally after they were locked away. With all the reworks going on I'm praying this is one thing DE doesn't skip over. If they are truly committed to making the experience more accessible changes must be made.

[ShogunGunshow]

7 hours ago, (PSN)JaiWilliams767 said:

My biggest issue with nightwave is that the weapon augment mods are unobtainable. Some of these mods like 'Wild Frenzy', 'Efficient Beams' and 'Napalm Grenades' completely change your  weapon playstyle and create alternative ways to build and play. These rewards should be obtainable in Nora's shop or at least Baro's Inventory. It's not fair to newer players who started playing literally after they were locked away. With all the reworks going on I'm praying this is one thing DE doesn't skip over. If they are truly committed to making the experience more accessible changes must be made.

They eventually get rotated back in on the Nightwave intermissions. Wouldn't worry too much about it. 

[(XBOX)ForsakenMoon13]

On 2023-10-05 at 1:01 PM, AxilliaPrime said:

i am pretty sure the idea is to be able to earn everything necessary to install an incarnon genesis adapter, namely the adapter AND pathos clamps purely from playing warframe content - the circuit.

rather than forcing people who like warframe but hate melee drifter to engage in that soulframe alpha test upstairs, just so we can get our warframe gear, from actual real warframe content.

yes, correct, i am complaining that they DON'T llet me "$$$" for pathos clamps, but force me to play soulframe pre-alpha instead of my space ninja game.

You're missing the point that the addition of the rivens is to have an *evergreen* reward, something that always has a potential value to a player. Pathos Clamps have a very *limited* use, totaling at most 1460 used just to get one of everything (unlocking drifter weapons, applying incarnons to *every possible variant*, building kullervo twice and rauta once). If you use plat to unlock the drifter weapons and only want to apply incarnons to one weapon variant out of every type, that drops down to 620, and will drop even further if you purchase Kullervo & Rauta once, or even if you decide to buy Kullervo twice. So eventually the need for lots of pathos clamps will run out. Now, the Duvirir vendor already has evergreen rewards for pathos clamps for those that like doing the Duviri open world content, in the form of being able to buy exilus adapters, arcane adapters, forma blueprints, potatoes, kuva, and a riven mod.

 

Meanwhile, Circuit currently *doesnt* have an evergreen reward, hence the addition of 2 riven mod choices in addition to the incarnon genesis adapters.

 

also, there's been no indication Duviri is meant to be some "soulframe alpha test". You can dislike it all you want, but dismissing it as something it isn't just devalues your entire statement.

On 2023-10-05 at 7:06 PM, Mixnek said:

Unless you increase the riven cap. we have no use for more rivens we can't store. 😔 There are around 2.5x more possible rivens than available slots (180). And every update with new weapons makes it harder to decide, which rivens to trash - rivens, that we spent hours and hours on farming for. It's inconceivable why the capacity doesn't increase with total weapon count. ⬆️⬆️⬆️

Veiled rivens have been uncapped for months now, if not a year. They start counting against cap when you slot them into a weapon to generate the challenge and unveil them. Until that point, you can have as many as you want.

[master_of_destiny]

On 2023-10-05 at 6:24 PM, ShogunGunshow said:

Treated you with the same level of respect you've shown to everyone else.

No point in a long, drawn out, thousand-word response to your complaints because, even if I wrote a book, you have made it extremely clear via your posts that you think anyone that disagrees with you is somehow mentally deficient, and that you are not open to any reality besides the one you have constructed in your head.

I am comfortable leaving it here. The changes will go through, and you'll have to find something else to gatekeep in Warframe - like if DE ever lowers Primed Sure Footed from 400 days to 200, or something equally apocalyptic to your sense of achievement. 

What I believe is simple, that DE is making the endgame much more accessible and thus not endgame.  I laid out all that would be required to do so...and I responded to someone who initially argued that they wanted this because it makes more builds possible.

 

Now, if you'd like to argue...because it seems like you think this is zero sum, then explain:

1) Why not just remove the mastery rank system...because it places barriers to new players having powerful tools?

2) Why not remove the syndicates daily reputation gain...because it removes the player's ability to access powerful tools?

If you can answer those two questions I'll gladly admit that you have a point, and that I should absolutely assume that nothing in this game matters and I should have access to everything.  So we are clear...I've already answered the stupidity of "old man" arguments.  DE did years ago with the quote "We do free to play right.  You'll be able to access all core content just by playing the game."  It was a statement that:

1) All content was "free" to access

2) Non-core content was the money maker (cosmetics, slots, etc...)

3) There will be time gating to make sure that players have a reason to continue to play.

4) Whatever was valuable would have the most grind. 

5) The grind was proven out by low RNG values...because the Lato Vandal and Braton Vandal along with the 21 rarest Eidolon arcanes are 1:20 chances or much less.

 

 

You know, it might just be a veteran thing.  It might be someone old enough to have not been brought up on free to play garbage, who has seen successful monetization, and knows that money has intrinsic value.  Maybe I am too old to just accept things.  Of course, you've done nothing to make a counter argument but state a word, and proven that the counter argument is simply "I deserve more with less effort."  Never necessary to argue why, or even cite that I've drawn a line in the sand because I accepted earlier stuff.  Any actual potential argument is just "I'm too lazy and you aren't going to agree."  Yeah...Deadblow.  No effort, finesse, and entirely useless.  Does make you feel good to swing that hammer though, right?

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

11 hours ago, (PSN)JaiWilliams767 said:

My biggest issue with nightwave is that the weapon augment mods are unobtainable. Some of these mods like 'Wild Frenzy', 'Efficient Beams' and 'Napalm Grenades' completely change your  weapon playstyle and create alternative ways to build and play. These rewards should be obtainable in Nora's shop or at least Baro's Inventory. It's not fair to newer players who started playing literally after they were locked away. With all the reworks going on I'm praying this is one thing DE doesn't skip over. If they are truly committed to making the experience more accessible changes must be made.

They eventually get rotated back in on the Nightwave intermissions. Wouldn't worry too much about it. 

Wild Frenzy and Napalm Grenades haven't  come back since Intermission 2, 3.5 years years ago.  Efficient Beams has never come back, so it's been 4 years since it was available through gameplay.   I'd consider gaps that large a problem that should have been addressed long ago.  

[master_of_destiny]

On 2023-10-05 at 1:28 PM, AxilliaPrime said:

steel path can be reached by MR4-7 players about 2-3 weeks after first installing the game, if the new players joining our clan are any indication.
you can't expect to retain new player to the game if you tell them "congratulations on finishing the star chart, please remain there or in arbitrations for the next 6 months, while you grind out focus".

 

Thank you.

 

It's almost like the argument here is that DE has multiple progression systems which don't mesh.  They create plateaus, and instead of offering rewards on these plateaus DE seems to be seeking to remove them.  They aren't being removed by changing the reward progression...they're being removed by giving you so much stuff that you don't have time to plateau before you're moving onto the next grind and incapable of appreciating your progress.

1) Start the game, grind for basic resources and credits while unlocking the start chart.

2) Discover mods as you level up.  Discover endo as a requirement.  Discover it's rarely dropped, and in 15 unit blobs.

3) Get to rank 30.  Discover the joys of forma, the 24 hour wait, and the need to earn both reactors and catalysts.  Find both are unobtanium unless engaging with Nightwave, which all of the aura mods are also hidden behind.  Despair, because as a new player you'll have random weekly access with miserable time gates and then have to decide if the aura mod or the reactor/catalyst is a better reward.

4) Complete the star chart.  Discover the Steel Path.  Complete The Second Dream.  Discover operator form.

5) Discover Arbitrations.  A new game mode that penalizes death hard...but is basically an endo fountain.  Nowhere else can you run 40 minutes and get 7 sources of endo and an ephemera as a reward.  

6) Use the endo from arbitrations, and the mods.  Get your crap pushed in during steel path, and start grinding PoE for either lenses or Eidolons.  Alternatively, now engage with Duviri for huge nearly effortless focus gains.  

7) Become dangerous enough to do Steel Path, by having the operator act as an extension of your builds.  This functionally is meant to be where you no longer have to have a niche build to survive Steel Path...because enemies without armor are basically dead (Unairu), casters with infinite energy are immortal (Zenurik), and melee with the ability to regen health (Naramon+Arcane Reaper) are basically immortal. 

8) Grind Rivens.  You've literally done everything else...and without the operator grind being here it's lonely at the RNG rolling top.

9) Grind Kuva.  End stage Rivens is not just to have them, but to spend millions of kuva getting a "god roll."  Almost like it's an RNG sandwich...right type, right weapon, and right stats.

 

The items in italicized blue are the plateaus.  They are periods where the player is going to have issues.  Note that DE has....kind of made them easier.  That initial mod grind is endo supported, and all mods can be dissolved into endo.  No reactors and having to get 1024 mods to merge into a single high level one.  They haven't removed the exponential path though...so their cost is still an issue that necessitates not only getting a core set, but raising it up to be effective.

 

Next is the Nightwave.  It's been a pretty fantastic failure.  Let me elaborate.  For veterans who have all of the cosmetics it's a grind of old content to get credits to buy...Nitain and reactors/catalysts.  For new players it's a weekly RNG roll whether they can get the rewards without help, followed by an RNG roll to see if they have anything to buy.  What I will tell you is that decent veterans who find a lower MR player should offer them a quick trade, and give up some of their aura mods.  It's the right thing to do to make the new player experience suck less.  As far as I'm concerned, it's also the only way to retain people who see the grind wall to basic equipment after the first 10 hours and just tune out.

Follow this up with forma.  You've got to get access to the void and relics to farm stuff...and then wait 23 hours...  It's not a pain to veterans, but for new players who need hundreds of forma it's basically months of artificial grind wall.  This is why Formastar is an event the community loves.

Moving on to step 5...arbitrations.  I...have mixed feelings.  It's great for new players to have a gigantic feed of endo...and older players keep doing it for the arcanes.  As the later, and years in, I'm still 19/21 for the pistol efficiency with 33/21 for the companion armor and arch-gun summon armor.  Likewise, the endo flow is a joke, when you've got everything maxed, 100+ of each statue, and 6+ million sitting around because the release of mods is so slow.  It's also frustrating when people pop into this game mode for 10 minutes, get one reward, and duck out.  The rest of the team gets to either power through (see: Revenant and shield gating) or leave a timed mission.  With mixed feelings, it was a generally good thing that DE assumes everyone will love given how much endo is required.

This is generally where new players start to drop.  400+ weapons is cool...until you test 5 in a row that suck.  MR lets you do more...but it's not linear.  The rank-ups take weeks instead of days to earn.  With all the time gating people burn out...and fade away.  No comments, just move on to the next free title.  This is also why DE asks us in their surveys if we know what to do next...because at this step there's no clear "forward" that isn't going to require lots of grind without obvious quick benefits.

 

Step 6 is late mid-game.  With the changes to focus it'll probably move to 7, because the focus schools will be item 5.  Grinding Duviri is a literal joke, because they removed all progression gates.  You can enter day one with the Sun & Moon and be effective as someone at MR 33.  Back to 6, you've got another re-equip plateau.  You're going to need the mods to start winning at Steel Path...and the operator powers make it somewhat trivial even at low levels.  When "challenge" is defined by big number and you can remove them with a single button press it's less about challenge and more about a gear check.  Read: why corrosive damage and corrosive projection mods were the only choice for years...and now the "high level" content is Unairu as a basic requirement.

Step 9 is literally the end of the game.  It's where people stop logging in, except for content drops.  Rivens have been divorced from their purpose of "allowing all weapons to be viable in late game" and has instead become an exercise in trying to find the 1% where the Riven hasn't been hammered to crap for what the weapon can do.  You then have to get the riven, roll until you get the weapon, then roll until you get stats...of course those stats also have RNG.  Goody.  I can get the "god roll" for the categories, and still get a garbage individual stat roll that makes the riven unusable.  Gotta love that level of fruitless grind.

 

 

Anyone who has read this, and disagrees, should point out a few things.

1) If it's such a grind, why are you still playing?

Answer - for 20 seconds.  The 20 seconds to slice through mooks, jump against a wall and wall jump into the air, slam down with a heavy attack, and become a gigantic fanblade of limbs and mook bits.  That's the core loop of this game...and why it's good.

2) If you're a veteran you don't understand the new player experience.  It was too long ago.

Answer - you forget that the new player experience is new.  Amazing, but it used to be a total mess.  Login, drop from a pod in the wall, have infinite energy to kill enemies for no apparent reason, then wander through a tutorial.  Of course, that was 2.0.  My understanding is that new player mission 1.0 was just dropping you into the orbiter.  Funny that, the current experience leading you through everything.  The initial start being the same rough smattering of missions, but evolving into dozens of parallel grinds.  Finally, understanding that old methods were actually much more restrictive (coin lives, hard capped focus, and no shield gating), and thus were a longer grind.  Of course, standing for ways to decrease that grind is reasonable...given that these conveniences aren't simply given up.  IE, focus being tied to MR, shield gating being a mechanic which you can mod for with arbitration mods, and the coin lives going the way of the arcade for a live count which can be increased through earning higher ranked arcanes.

3) TL;DR.

Answer - fine.  TL; DR back.  Too lazy; don't respect.

4) Rabble-rabble-rabble, gatekeeper.

Answer - Cool.  You want all of the rewards and none of the investment.  That's called entitlement, and it's why games like Overwatch died.  It's also why games like Star Wars Battlefront II died.  If EA made Vader a 40 hour grind, and didn't let you pay for him, it would be a powerful reward.  Instead, they claimed it being a "reward" and then offered it for money in a premium priced game.  DE gets away with this because they're free to play...but only as long as we let them.  I'm not gatekeeping to keep new players from content, I'm attempting to force them to engage with the progression curve so that by the time it unlocks they know what it is to earn that power...without the opportunity to just buy it.  Key differences there that most people are too dense to link...but the two, and all too often the reality is that through years of conflation and inexperience with pro-consumer practices they may never be able to see that there is a difference.

 

 

Let me end with this, for the 1% of the 1% who read.  DE waited years before the focus system got any love.  They waited so long that anybody who has it probably finished grinding for it more than 12 months ago.  They added Thrax in the Zariman, and in Duviri they added Thrax with a mission section that spawns them infinitely without the 30 kill requirement on the Zariman.  It's obvious that they're adding all of the easier methods so that players can power up faster...but then you constantly hear DE whine about minimizing power creep, and that's why all of the new content is "but." 

Let me explain.  Incarnons are awesome upgrades to the weaker weapons, but they are only awesome in an incarnon mode which depletes quickly and requires charging.  Decrees are awesome, but only serve to mask the uneven progression of a souls-like Duviri.  The circuit gives us a quick challenge with immediate rewards, but it locks us into gear that ranges from great to garbage.  I'm seeing a day in the not too distant future where this balance by DE is how they address power creep, but the truth is that once everyone else sees their "buts" I don't believe that they'll want to communicate it.  I believe they'll state "but there are a hundred other free games in my library right now that don't require me to jump through hoops."  That'll be the day a large chunk of players log off forever...because eventually seeing this game's ugly side will hurt too much.

You know, I'm going to do two things.  I'll take back an earlier defense of Unairu being the only focus school choice...because it is at endgame.  I'll also share my love for statistics.  100% of games die...whether a slow death of by the hands of their creators or by being replaced.  Most games that matter are resurrected...think WoW classic, Guild Wars, or even Final Fantasy.  The thing is, all of these games were run by people smart enough to not aim for decades of content.  Heck, current WoW pivots...and I'm betting DE thinks they learned that lesson.  That's why we got "open worlds."  Unfortunately they neglected to learn that the driver is core content, and the icing is that unique stuff.  In the last five years we've gotten a tub of icing per each slice of cake, and now DE wants to replace the cake they already gave us with icing.  That's how we stop liking the icing and the cake...because there's nothing worse than a slab of icing...because cloyingly sweet is only tolerable if there's some balance to it.  Almost like rewards are not rewards if there's no effort in getting them.  

[TrueLegend15]

This really is the ultimate quality-of-life update, I'm excited to breathe new life into my builds with the new shield gate and companion changes. Cross save can't come soon enough though, cause I'm still stuck in limbo waiting to transfer my save from xbox to my pc :(. 

[Grimm]

On 2023-10-08 at 12:25 AM, SteveCutler said:

Are you using her 4 (Inferno)? After casting that a few times, the heat bar starts ramping up so fast, that whenever Fire Blast is used the DR drops to 50% only for a split second before shooting right back to 90%. It's very consistent for me.

split second is enough since you cant retrigger shield gate with inferno.

[SteveCutler]

1 hour ago, Grimm said:

split second is enough since you cant retrigger shield gate with inferno.

So are you doing Steel Path endurance runs to level cap or something? Or not building any health/armor? In normal Steel Path missions (say, 30-60 minutes in), Ember tanks just fine. No need for shield gating at all. She can just health tank. Having a DR ability puts her up there among the tankiest frames, like Chroma, Nezha, Baruuk, Yareli, etc., but below Revenant, Valkyr, and Trinity. Ember isn't squishy at all.

Edited October 9, 2023 by SteveCutler

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

On 2023-10-08 at 9:05 AM, (XBOX)ForsakenMoon13 said:

You're missing the point that the addition of the rivens is to have an *evergreen* reward, something that always has a potential value to a player. Pathos Clamps have a very *limited* use, totaling at most 1460

so what about the shop that ells arcanes and resources?

[Qriist]

On 2023-09-28 at 12:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

There are many avenues for Tenno to approach Warframe survivability -- usually, it’s through increasing Health and Armor values, or making use of damage resistance features of certain Mods or Abilities, etc.

On 2023-09-28 at 12:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

we want to prevent One Shot

Piping up to ask you to fix Nezha's Warding Halo. The last hit doesn't reduce damage but is instead capable of one-shotting the player regardless of shieldgate status.

 

On 2022-12-14 at 4:09 AM, (NSW)AegisFifi said:

Nezha: Warding Halo - doesn't provide invulnerability against the damage that caused it to expire and doesn't reduce this damage by 90% as it should. Instead, the damage gets increased beyond 100% of its value, often causing one-shot death. (by @Tesla_Reloaded).

On 2023-01-04 at 8:31 AM, Terroriced said:

here is the math.

It should always be raw_damage reduced by other sources of damage reduction * 0.1

but if Warding Halos points are lower

On 2023-09-28 at 12:02 PM, [DE]Taylor said:

Critical Multipliers (and other modifiers) applying post damage cap allowed for many of the One Shot builds to function, and for full transparency, we want to prevent One Shot Archon builds as much as possible. By changing where these modifiers apply, we can increase the Damage Caps to a much less punishing level for players.

 

than raw_damage, the game calculates (raw_damage - Warding_Halos_points) reduced by other sources of damage reduction

This is incorrect math, because calculating a percentage damage reduction always requires multiplication, not subtraction.

 

If Warding Halos points are lower than raw_damage and incoming damage is combined IPS / toxin (example: Archon Nira), the games calculated toxin component equals

raw_toxin_damage reduced by other sources of damage reduction + Warding_Halos_points * 0.1 - ((raw_toxin_damage - Warding_Halos_points) reduced by other sources of damage reduction)

I dont even know what happened here. This is not math, more like spaghetti code.

This oneshot my Nezha at 1289hp through shield gate with Warding Halo being at 3192 points. It happens on the Archon fight so much.

 

 

[Terroriced]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Qriist:

Piping up to ask you to fix Nezha's Warding Halo. The last hit doesn't reduce damage but is instead capable of one-shotting the player regardless of shieldgate status.

Thanks for bringing this up. I hope this bug will be fixed rather soon than in another 5 years. It was first reported on in 2018 btw! I have been waiting so long :(

 

I also want to clarify on the math that you quoted me on.

For the normal bug variant, unfortunately the Duviri update has changed things for the worse. The math used to be easy but now it doesnt make sense anymore. The only observable metric is that even more damage now bypasses Warding Halo, but there seems to be no easy to identify calculation anymore. Warding Halos points used to be added to your heath (or shields if they were up) instead of applying a damage reduction, but now something else happens that doesnt produce predictable values. Nezha now basically receives almost full damage and I dont know why. Edit: I did numbers testing in simulacrum again against different lvl enemies and the old bug formula is still correct today.

(raw_damage - Warding_Halos_points) reduced by other sources of damage reduction

For the rare bug variant I investigated the interaction with Archon Nira again in March and fixed some major errors in my calculations. There is an actual easy to understand explanation now, why toxin damage is so deadly to Nezha when inflicted together with other damage types in the same hit. You can read about it in this comment.

 

Please dont use that old quote of mine about Archon Nira anymore as it is incorrect / outdated information. Thanks for caring about the issue.

Edit: Im investigating the standard bug variant again, maybe the old formula is still correct. Edit2: It is still correct.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Terroriced

[Tiltskillet]

56 minutes ago, Qriist said:

Piping up to ask you to fix Nezha's Warding Halo. The last hit doesn't reduce damage but is instead capable of one-shotting the player regardless of shieldgate status.

Certain about it bypassing shieldgate?   @Terroriced  Or are you just talking hits where toxin is involved?

Other than toxin, I've always assumed it kills me in the gaps  after a shield gate  has elapsed and before recharge has started.  But it rarely happens to me at all, and I haven't made a close study of it.

[Qriist]

32 minutes ago, Terroriced said:

Thanks for bringing this up. I hope this bug will be fixed rather soon than in another 5 years. It was first reported on in 2018 btw! I have been waiting so long :(

No problem! It's super annoying and should be fixed.

 

32 minutes ago, Terroriced said:

I also want to clarify on the math that you quoted me on.

  Oh cool! Thanks for updated the math. Looks like you put a ton of effort into the tests, too.

 

Just now, Tiltskillet said:

Certain about it bypassing shieldgate? 

It's hard to say for certain given that it happens in the middle of a fight, but I think so. My Nezha build uses Pillage offensively (to full-strip armor before doing anthing else), so I'm almost always topped up on 1350 overshields with 2125 health that is constantly being healed via Molt Reconstruct. Despite that, I still sometimes randomly go down. 

I'd be happy to test in the simulacrum. What enemy should I choose for consistent toxin damage?

[Terroriced]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Tiltskillet:

Certain about it bypassing shieldgate?   @Terroriced  Or are you just talking hits where toxin is involved?

Im currently recalculating if current numbers for the normal bug variant are still consistent with observations from previous years. So far it looks like they are and I need to edit my previous comment again.

 

And now on to the shieldgate talking point:

The shieldgate argument is a bit tricky. Normally, adding another damage type to an attack that already includes toxin should not kill Nezha if the toxin component is not able to do it alone and shields are up, because they dont interact, but in the case with Archon Nira there is a hit with her Verdilac that has both toxin and IPS at the same time, where the IPS damage actually helps the toxin damage that bypasses Warding Halo to 'grow' despite it not being changed at all.

Im gonna quote my example from the bug report:

Zitat

Imagine a Nezha with 4000 points in Warding Halo and some shields for the shield gate (and no Armor to make the example easier).

A hit with 5000 toxin damage should be reduced by 90%, making Nezha take 500 toxin damage.

A hit with 5000 toxin damage according to the standard bug version will be reduced to 5000 - 4000 = 1000 toxin damage.

 

If we add 5000 additional IPS damage to the same hit one could expect that to be irrelevant since it would just crash into the shield gate and the toxin damage remains unchanged.

However, what happens is that now the game calculates 10000 - 4000 = 6000 combined damage (50% of that is toxin) --> 3000 toxin damage

The game has just tripled the toxin damage that Nezha takes compared to the standard bug variant, even though the toxin damage value was not changed.

I think it is very hard for me to compile this interaction into a short and easy to understand phrase and talking about the shieldgate hasnt been too successful as a quick explanation yet. But this is how I perceive it in my head. I expect the shieldgate to save me, but the IPS damage just teams up with toxin and obliterates Nezhas HP.

 

vor 23 Minuten schrieb Tiltskillet:

Other than toxin, I've always assumed it kills me in the gaps  after a shield gate  has elapsed and before recharge has started.  But it rarely happens to me at all, and I haven't made a close study of it.

In high level gameplay even the standard bug variant will instantly kill Nezha, when the shieldgate isnt up, which makes health tanking inefficient way earlier than expected.

[Terroriced]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb Tiltskillet:

But it rarely happens to me at all, and I haven't made a close study of it.

Yes it is inconsistent and random. The bug happens every single time when Warding Halo breaks, but you will only really notice it if Warding Halo was low at that time and enemies are high level, which in combination can reach crazy damage numbers. Its based on luck.

 

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Qriist:

I'd be happy to test in the simulacrum. What enemy should I choose for consistent toxin damage?

I tested pure toxin damage with the aura from infested toxic Eximus and it behaves exactly like any other damage type. Only in combination with other damage types in the same hit do we see a deviation from the established 'regular bug variant'.