Thoughts/input on new shield gating?

[mubsmubs]

I was wondering if the new shield gating system would be any better than the current one, since you'd be investing mod slots for shield/shield recharge mods without any extra useful stats like the augur set. Current/old shield gating would guarantee you 1.3 s of shield gating at full shields, no matter how much base shields. With the new one, it's not guaranteed for some builds to get to that duration with just one ability cast without nuking efficiency, considering the new scaling. You can opt to slot in the new Catalyzing Shields to guarantee that 1.3 s, but again, you'd be sacrificing a mod slot as opposed to just using Decaying Dragon Key with the current system.

Please do keep in mind that I have done just the barest minimum of math on this, so feel free to give out any corrections.

Edited October 1, 2023 by mubsmubs

[Loza03]

As far as I'm aware, this isn't supposed to be a Buff. Shield-gating was overtuned in the current meta, so it's received what can only really be described as a DE-classic slap on the wrist minor nerf. Which granted do tend to be effective at getting things out of the spotlight.

[CoffeeElemental]

In theory, new shield gating can be really good for frames like Mag, Hildryn, Harrow - the ones that can easily restore shields by large amounts (maybe even Volt's augment for discharge will become useful kek). And slightly worse for builds that utilized the dragon key because of the mod slot requirement. It might be less painful for them if the new mod goes into the exilus slot tho (if DE decide to make it so).

Please do keep in mind that I have done none of the math at all here. It's just an assumption.

Edited October 1, 2023 by CoffeeElemental
yes

[(NSW)warfare3376]

I feel that with the new changes will make high shield restoration abilities like pillage and condemn much more valuable and potentially "mandatory" on certain frames for lvl cap, apart from that it will also cause invisibility or stuff like revenants mesmer skin be used much more for high lvl endurance. As for the new catalyzing shields mod I dont think it will get much use, with shield gating now being based off your current shields rather than just needing to be at max there no longer any reason at all to lower your max shields at all as you will no longer need to fully restore your shields to get a usable shield gate. The old shield gate builds just might be enough to still be usable with a few tweaks such as maybe an extra augur mod or a higher energy cost ability like a 75 or 100 cost instead of a 50 cost albeit a bit more tight of a widow. I personally feel catalyzing shields should be an exilus due to it being more of a playstyle choice, like the nezhas/zephers passive disable augs, and also doesnt offer much value on its own as you would still need the other parts to make it work like your brief respite/ augur mods.

[R4bbit0le]

1 hour ago, mubsmubs said:

Current/old shield gating would guarantee you 1.3 s of shield gating at full shields, no matter how much base shields. With the new one, it's not guaranteed for some builds to get to that duration with just one ability cast without nuking efficiency, considering the new scaling.

On paper, considering the changes in a void, the new shield gating system looks more like a nerf than a buff exactly because of what you just said above.
Some frames will struggle to consistently get the same time of invulnerability (1.3 sec) as easily as before with just augur set and decaying dragon key.
However, they will always get more than the current minimum (0.3 sec) so I think in most cases, say you get around 0.5-0.8 seconds, it's enough for you to work another cast and use shield gate as you always did.
Many others will benefit from max invulnerability (which is now 2.5 sec) easily and all the time (Mag, Harrow, Styanax any frame with pillage or condemn as helminths...) . However, it's not just that. Shields will now have more damage resistance and that will probably be significant unless pushing the enemy level to great heights.
Raksa kubrow and robotic mods like guardian and shield charger will now be usable with the companion update.
Also, there are arcanes and mods in the game that directly interact with shield recharge and they may see the light of day if people are truly relying on shield gate to survive.

I don't look at it as either a nerf or a buff, i look at it like a formalization of the mechanic. I love shield gating but it did feel obscure and gimmicky to use, and it felt counter intuitive to be that way when the mechanic is so powerful and so prevalent.

[mubsmubs]

42 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

As for the new catalyzing shields mod I dont think it will get much use, with shield gating now being based off your current shields rather than just needing to be at max there no longer any reason at all to lower your max shields at all as you will no longer need to fully restore your shields to get a usable shield gate.

Oh yeah, totally mixed up the different shield gate systems. Lower shields are now disincentivized in the new one.

(Edit, since I can't delete this reply) Catalyzing Shields lowers your shield stats but leaves shield gate duration at a constant 1.3s. So, there can be a reason to lower your max shields in order to get a more consistent and reliable shield gate duration via augur set and this mod.

Edited October 1, 2023 by mubsmubs

[R4bbit0le]

31 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

As for the new catalyzing shields mod I dont think it will get much use,

I agree. I think it will be an optional mod for frames with very low base shields, of which there aren't that many, grendel comes to mind.
Also, for frames who still want to use shield gating, however they don't spam abilities enough; some of my mirage buids come to mind, where i am using duration based abilites and will likely not spam enough so i might see the benefit in getting 1.3 sec with just one cast.

[Leqesai]

The new system seems like a much better system than the previous. Especially with the significant buff to shield damage reduction. 50% damage reduction to shields is awesome.

[(NSW)warfare3376]

40 minutes ago, mubsmubs said:

(Edit, since I can't delete this reply) Catalyzing Shields lowers your shield stats but leaves shield gate duration at a constant 1.3s. So, there can be a reason to lower your max shields in order to get a more consistent and reliable shield gate duration via augur set and this mod.

Yea but is it really worth the mod slot is the question. With brief respite and 2 augur mods in your secondary (pact and seeker) you will end up restoring 172 shields with a 75 cost ability and 230 with a 100 cost one, from the chart on the dev workshop that would be close to 1 second. With another auger mod instead of the new catalyzing shields mod the amount of shields becomes 202 and 270 respectfully making it even closer to amount of time catalyzing shields gives, well have to see in practice but on paper catalyzing shields just doesnt seem to give much value for how much it costs.

[L3512]

Catalyzing Shields reduce shields by 80% compared to 75% of the decaying dragon key so there is a bit more wriggle room than a straight 1:1 conversion however this is at the cost of a mod slot (DE totally missed the chance to call this mod Polarising Shields in response to community outlook on shield gating).

Shield gating in general is something I will need to play before deciding on the changes, looks like a Molt Saryn will need the new mod while frames like Harrow only see an upside.

Overall shields changes seem good as the DR increase is welcome but also the recharge delay stat being added to mods, this was a significant factor in the use of shield gating because this delay was a full four seconds after full depletion without being hit before shields would start to regenerate, making shields slow, weak and cumbersome. Interestingly Gauss at full Redline and new Fast Deflection should have a 0.33 second delay, ie functional immorality provided it stacks like DR.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

Honestly doesn't sound too bad but the invulnerability time being affected by the amount of shields lost sounds a little strange for base sp missions. Not positive how that will work out especially since we want higher shields now. At least there is the corrupted mod which will let you use old shield gating. Also unsure how overshields will affect invulnerability time. Either way condemn, (which I liberally subsume in frames) and pillage will get even better.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

this is a buff not a nerf.... u dont need full shields to get gating, u get the original shield gating duration at 350 shields and u start recharging shields sooner after the update 

[L3512]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

this is a buff not a nerf.... u dont need full shields to get gating, u get the original shield gating duration at 350 shields and u start recharging shields sooner after the update 

You never needed full shields to get a gate and 350 shields are too much to fill for old setups so the new mod will need to be used, that's objectively a nerf.

[R4bbit0le]

19 minutes ago, (PSN)Spider_Enigma said:

this is a buff not a nerf.... u dont need full shields to get gating, u get the original shield gating duration at 350 shields and u start recharging shields sooner after the update 

It's kind of a nerf to some strategies. 350 shields might be a hard ask for some frames to very quickly get after breaking.
But shields are beefier and I don't need a full 1.3 sec to cast another ability if my frame is a spammer...so I agree and I disagree with you. It's surely a buff for some frames but an "adjustment" for others.
I like these changes but I want to call a spade a spade it's buff, a nerf and an introduction of a new system, all at the same time :)

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

1 hour ago, R4bbit0le said:

It's kind of a nerf to some strategies. 350 shields might be a hard ask for some frames to very quickly get after breaking.
But shields are beefier and I don't need a full 1.3 sec to cast another ability if my frame is a spammer...so I agree and I disagree with you. It's surely a buff for some frames but an "adjustment" for others.
I like these changes but I want to call a spade a spade it's buff, a nerf and an introduction of a new system, all at the same time :)

only to the dragon key witch should never have been a thing in the first place, and u cant change my mind so dont bother 

[Silligoose]

6 hours ago, mubsmubs said:

I was wondering if the new shield gating system would be any better than the current one, since you'd be investing mod slots for shield/shield recharge mods without any extra useful stats like the augur set. Current/old shield gating would guarantee you 1.3 s of shield gating at full shields, no matter how much base shields. With the new one, it's not guaranteed for some builds to get to that duration with just one ability cast without nuking efficiency, considering the new scaling. You can opt to slot in the new Catalyzing Shields to guarantee that 1.3 s, but again, you'd be sacrificing a mod slot as opposed to just using Decaying Dragon Key with the current system.

Please do keep in mind that I have done just the barest minimum of math on this, so feel free to give out any corrections.

Overall it seems to be a nerf, but certain builds that make use of shield replenishing that result in large shield replenishment, such as Pillage, will seemingly experience the change as a buff.

I am disappointed that DE is so far gone they want to continue working on band-aids such as Shield Gating and Damage Attenuation, to address symptoms of imbalances, as opposed to just addressing the imbalances. Ultimately they are just continuing down the path of wasting time and money on bad mechanics, as Shield Gating simply brings with it further imbalances.

[SDGDen]

16 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

Overall it seems to be a nerf, but certain builds that make use of shield replenishing that result in large shield replenishment, such as Pillage, will seemingly experience the change as a buff.

I am disappointed that DE is so far gone they want to continue working on band-aids such as Shield Gating and Damage Attenuation, to address symptoms of imbalances, as opposed to just addressing the imbalances. Ultimately they are just continuing down the path of wasting time and money on bad mechanics, as Shield Gating simply brings with it further imbalances.

blame the community for lashing out at DE every time DE does decide something needs a nerf (no matter how deserved) 

 

 

[Silligoose]

8 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

blame the community for lashing out at DE every time DE does decide something needs a nerf (no matter how deserved) 

One could, but looking at DE's track record, they don't really seem to care whether the community lashes out, evidenced by decisions to nerf AoE 2022, nerf melee, the nerfing certain frames, introducing the Heirloom package (which they should have known wouldn't be well received) etc. DE mainly seems to use community sentiment as a PR reason for implementing changes they planned to make anyway, as, regardless of the decision, it seems there will invariably be those for it, and those against it.

I blame DE for these mechanics.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

It sucks.

How are you suppose to troll people in Relays by giving Shield Blessings? You won't be able to anymore! What kind of crazy counter intuitive tomfoolery is this? 

I'll be contacting my lawyers over this! DE can't keep getting away with this! 

[SDGDen]

14 minutes ago, Silligoose said:

One could, but looking at DE's track record, they don't really seem to care whether the community lashes out, evidenced by decisions to nerf AoE 2022, nerf melee, the nerfing certain frames, introducing the Heirloom package (which they should have known wouldn't be well received) etc. DE mainly seems to use community sentiment as a PR reason for implementing changes they planned to make anyway, as, regardless of the decision, it seems there will invariably be those for it, and those against it.

I blame DE for these mechanics.

looking at DE's track record, the've gone from making tough nerfs when needed back in 2014-2016 to being so fearful for backlash that many of the newer frames they release are released underpowered. and the playerbase? they've just gotten more and more vocal about more and more trivial S#&$. the 2022 AOE nerfs were peanuts, same for the melee nerfs. they didn't fix anything with those nerfs. 

 

[S074]

I have to test it in practice, but in general I feel like it's an improvement for all shield based frames and opens up some new build strategies.

Damage reduction raised to 50% means that shield heavy frames got a bunch of extra ehp. Yes, this is literally nothing on high level content, but for average play I think it's substantial.

I generally ignore building for shields: defensively speaking I lean on armor + HP. The upcoming changes to mods will (slightly) improve stats when you have 2 umbral mods on the build also make me think I might not make any change on my builds, however warframes with skills that can top up their shields quickly (mag, protea, trinity, hyldrin) definitely have a really good incentive to run shields based defensive builds.

I think introducing the mod to shieldgate is a very good compromise. It doesn't remove the Dragon Key "exploit" strategy, it now costs you a mod slot to use it which balances things out.

[Zekkii]

Hot take, but I don't think it'll change much.  Recovering a 1.33 second shield gate with any 25 energy ability will always be incredibly powerful, but what really sets it apart is that invulnerability scales indefinitely.  Requiring a mod won't change that.

The shield recharge mod changes are fairly pointless.  It would still require 10+ seconds of avoiding damage to recover 1000 shield with the new Fast Deflection mod.  I can't see anyone using these mods unless you can combo them with the Decaying Dragon key mod for constant shield gate resets.

Finally the extended shield gate for high shields and 50% damage reduction are actual good changes, but still fairly niche.  There's not that many frames that are actually good at using high amounts of shields, and Protea and Hildryn already have extended shield gates.  I wouldn't be surprised to see Arcane Aegis + Pillage subsume builds start to pop up, but shields need more support if we want to see widespread 'high shield' builds.

[Hayrack]

It's a nerf to Decaying Dragon Key. How come an item, that was supposed to put you closer to mission failure, gave you an ability to level cap? It's like missing 5 consecutive shots gave you higher critical chance - makes no sense.

[ReddyDisco]

Decaying dragon key interaction is dead, it returns to its original purpose of being a negative debuff while opening vaults. New mod is pre-change dragon key, it's a slight nerf because you lose a mod slot, would be nice if they made it an exilus mod.

Edited October 1, 2023 by ReddyDisco

[SneakyErvin]

I look forward to the changes, mostly the recharge delay buff added to certain mods, something only Gauss has access to currently. More mitigation to shields is also welcomed. Never really relied on the shield gate to more than stop 1HKs, so not much will change for me.