Decision on last mod for Boltor Prime Incarnon build

[Eda.Mone]

Hi, I just can't really seem to decide.
I've been testing and everything honestly seems really close to me.

-- I've been going through bladed rounds, - point strike, - hammershot.

Keep in mind the last 3 selections for the Incarnon, which are

18% status C
10% status and crit chance
14% Crit C.

I'm not the best at when it comes to the theoretical / math in this game and just wondering if anyone can help out here.

(yes, I would use overframe for ease but it doesnt support incarnon afaik)

The post on the right is the incarnon without any of those 3 mods activated , WITH the 18% status choice

The one right below is with BOTH crit and status chance 10%.  (The one with just crit doesnt seem worthwhile.)

Edited November 20, 2023 by Ryker
Forgot to incude stats.

[VibingCat]

48 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am including them cause they affect the amount of bleed damage you get.

I am not sure why you are mentioning corrosive vs bleed, it was never the point i was making.

They are also not affecting things the same way, as bleed has a DoT and can double dip , corrosive may reduce armor but stil does damage to EHP not HP.

And as i said , it was simplified.

But Definitely a better analysis than simply comparing armored EHP vs HP.

I am also not sure what "damage type" multipliers you mean. Could you elaborate?

Bonuses on base damage, crits and body parts affect bleed and direct the same exact way. As I said, if a>b then also ka>kb, where "a" is true damage and "b" is corrosive damage, while k includes all their multipliers. They unnecessarily add complexity to your calculations without changing the result. 

Yes, faction damage applies twice to DOT, which gives bleed even more advantage, and so we get k²a>kb.

Corrosive status reduces armour, correct. Let's find how much it helps: one proc strips 26%, that boosts your total damage by [300/(300+0.74*armour)] / [(300+armour)/300], approximated to 1/0.74 when armour>>300. That's a 1.35 damage multiplier. In comparison, one single viral proc multiplies damage by 2 on health whether or not it's armoured. Only 10 corrosive is better than 10 viral, as 5 vs 4.25, when armour tends to infinite.

And lastly, viral damage has a 1.75 damage type multiplier against all grineer. Corrosive has the same multiplier to targets that have ferrite armour, while also ignoring 75% of that armour class. So if the target has alloy armour, corrosive doesn't offer anything but armour strip, which is worse than viral procs anyway as a final damage multiplier.

This is why viral+bleed is the endgame combo unless you have 100% armour strip.

Edited November 24, 2023 by VibingCat

[VibingCat]

46 minutes ago, Ryker said:

By the way, I should probably stress this.
I'm mostly playing Dagath at the moment, so if I'm using a weapon, Viral is definitely not the play since I am max stacking pretty quickly.

If you can easily proc 10 viral to all enemies, you have a few options:

1) mod your Boltor for viral anyway, with Hunter Munitions and a primed faction mod. This will give you more consistency and access to level cap, especially with the help of a primer and abilities;

2) mod for corrosive and heat and ignore Hunter Munitions and faction mods. This will be the most powerful option thanks to 90% armour strip for a maximum total damage multiplier of ~40 with viral, however it won't last forever, maybe until level 500 in steel path, then eximus will be a serious problem;

3) same as 1) but without any elemental mods. Add bladed rounds and maybe Amalgam Serration. Although this one has a higher potential in terms of bleed, it will be heavily relying on whatever effects you have that inflict viral status. On top of that, damage to overguard won't be optimal.

In conclusion, I recommend the first option.

[0_The_F00l]

4 hours ago, VibingCat said:

Bonuses on base damage, crits and body parts affect bleed and direct the same exact way. As I said, if a>b then also ka>kb, where "a" is true damage and "b" is corrosive damage, while k includes all their multipliers. They unnecessarily add complexity to your calculations without changing the result. 

Yes, faction damage applies twice to DOT, which gives bleed even more advantage, and so we get k²a>kb.

Corrosive status reduces armour, correct. Let's find how much it helps: one proc strips 26%, that boosts your total damage by [300/(300+0.74*armour)] / [(300+armour)/300], approximated to 1/0.74 when armour>>300. That's a 1.35 damage multiplier. In comparison, one single viral proc multiplies damage by 2 on health whether or not it's armoured. Only 10 corrosive is better than 10 viral, as 5 vs 4.25, when armour tends to infinite.

And lastly, viral damage has a 1.75 damage type multiplier against all grineer. Corrosive has the same multiplier to targets that have ferrite armour, while also ignoring 75% of that armour class. So if the target has alloy armour, corrosive doesn't offer anything but armour strip, which is worse than viral procs anyway as a final damage multiplier.

This is why viral+bleed is the endgame combo unless you have 100% armour strip.

I am really trying to find a reason why we are having an argument. And why you keep coming back to corrosive. Are you simply not reading the whole thing?

Have I in my entire conversation in this topic ever said viral+ slash is not effective ?

You are unnecessarily trying to make this a corrosive vs slash+viral debate when it is not. 

The thing I have highlighted is that their efficacy is not dependent on Armor value alone and needs to consider other factors as well. Yes most of those other factors impact direct damage similarly but there are a few things that do not , like elemental damage and faction damage.

4 hours ago, Ryker said:

By the way, I should probably stress this.
I'm mostly playing Dagath at the moment, so if I'm using a weapon, Viral is definitely not the play since I am max stacking pretty quickly.

Most of my original recommendations still stand with less requirement being put on viral procs via weapons as you can get more consistent viral via abilities. If you are willing to expand outside the weapon itself (to companions , focus and frame abilities) then you can experiment even more if you have armor removal as an option.

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by 0_The_F00l

[VibingCat]

18 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

the elemental weighting puts more emphasis on corrosive which is better for direct  and sustained damage by the weapon , especially effective against armored units such that the status can reduce Armor. The much higher fire rate will only make it better at dealing damage but may not be as ammo efficient (but still pretty good) and may require frequent reload or result in wasted shots. 

This is what I've been replying to. It may not be the kernel of your argument, but it's the subject I wanted to discuss.

[0_The_F00l]

5 hours ago, VibingCat said:

This is what I've been replying to. It may not be the kernel of your argument, but it's the subject I wanted to discuss.

And do you think what i have said is wrong?

Or did you miss what i wrote after that?

23 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

It's a perfectly reasonable approach and will have no issues killing most enemies. My recommendation of hunter munitions is under the assumption that my other suggestions are also accepted. Taking bits and pieces will not result in as effective an outcome.

Maybe avoid taking things out of context, it will avoid confusions.

 

[VibingCat]

On 2023-11-21 at 9:14 AM, 0_The_F00l said:

Hunter munitions will net you greater output than Bane as well.

It's like comparing apples to oranges, and overall it's a wrong generalisation. If you have a weapon that relies on DOT from toxin, heat, electricity or gas against unarmoured enemies, a primed faction mod is much stronger than HM. Surely if the rest of the build is viral+HM, then I agree with you because there wouldn't be room for it.

[0_The_F00l]

38 minutes ago, VibingCat said:

It's like comparing apples to oranges, and overall it's a wrong generalisation. If you have a weapon that relies on DOT from toxin, heat, electricity or gas against unarmoured enemies, a primed faction mod is much stronger than HM. Surely if the rest of the build is viral+HM, then I agree with you because there wouldn't be room for it.

 

9 hours ago, VibingCat said:

This is what I've been replying to. It may not be the kernel of your argument, but it's the subject I wanted to discuss.

Stick to a point please.

Other wise you are sounding like someone unable to maintain a coherent train of thought or read a paragraph in its entirety.

My original recommendations already have suggested viral , but since OP has other means to proc viral , corrosive is good enough considering his Riven gives him corrosive by default , and is difficult to mix with other elements due to elemental positioning. Do realise that if OP had asked for "best mod loadout" my responses would have been different. My current responses are tailored to the original request to modify an existing loadout with certain limitations.

He can of course roll that Riven and maybe get even better stats and then we can optimize it further , but that's out of either of our control. We need to work with the tools we are given not what we wish we had.

I have already elaborated the difference HM will have as compared to simply having a Bane mod. In a priority order HM (or any DoT ) should come before Bane to get max oomph. If the choice is between Bane and HM (and you can consistently get critical hits) HM is the recommendation. 

I would request @Ryker to test things himself , enough recommendations have been given so far and this debate is starting to go around in circles unnecessarily.