Issues with Stealth in current Warframe

[Asono]

Currently, in the game's current state, the stealth playstyle and system feels unsatisfactory.

Side note before you begin reading: I am sorry about how long it is, I am just passionate about stealth. I will put a tldr at the bottom.

When the game started, it was more of a 'space ninja' action game. With several of the modes we have today. However, most of the gameplay was slower and more methodical, not including when players found how they could abuse Excalibur's Javelin, and was more focused on teamwork with a balanced team that could fulfill a wide variety of roles and playstyles. Healers were much more useful, tanks had more defined positions of either stunning enemies or creating safe zones and dps was, well...dps.

That era has long passed and the game has very much embraced a new identity as a horde shooter while keeping the general-ish appearance of 'space ninjas' and I don't have a whole lot of issue with that part. But because of the shift to being a horde shooter, the overall gameplay of the stealth of the 'space ninjas' has completely vanished from gameplay. Yes, many frames can go invisible. But, I would argue that is not stealth; it's merely becoming invisible. What I mean by stealth is being able to sneak around and pick of targets without alerting the rest and then disappearing not going invisible and nuking the site from orbit (in essence).

The main area where this gameplay is lost is honestly in the 'stealth' missions themselves i.e. Spy and Rescue. Both of these modes paint themselves as being the stealth missions and are presented to the player as stealth missions. However, the only part of the mission that requires any form of stealth is the very end of these missions, either just before you get into the vaults on Spy or right when you enter the prison on Rescue.

Issues with Spy Missions:

Previously any frame could do a spy mission without being seen, as long as you were careful with your movements, who you killed and when you killed. An example of this is this video (Not from me but rather Leon Rogue): 

Now granted they are playing Ash, who is a stealth frame, but they were not abusing invisibility to achieve this but rather through careful movements and actually sneaking about. Enemies were further between each other and far fewer of them. Now for a horde shooter that may be bad in most cases but for stealth it was perfect. However, in modern stealth missions, there are enemies everywhere. It is damn near impossible to stealth anything in the game without needing constant invisibility or ways to isolate enemies (Ivara sleep arrows as an example). If you shoot one (Let's say you are using a bow for consistency) several other enemies will see it and immediately be alerted or the body will fly across the room and hang on the wall where, once again, a ton of enemies will see it and be alerted.

However none of this matters due to 90% of the mission you can be as loud as you want, using explosives, loud weapons, and just being a general war crime in the mission. It only matters when you get to the vault where they do not even begin to care about anything outside. Which makes you question, "Why did I even bring a slower, typically squishier character if I could have just brought a nuker to clear a path?" In truth you could have there is no reason to bring a stealth character for that part. "But what about the stealth needed in the vault?" you may be asking. If it's corpus: Just don't touch the big glowing lasers or nuke the room before they can set off an alarm.

If you are doing Grinneer: Don't get seen by the drones, which have clear indicators of where they are currently looking and follow a designated path and if there are wardens, again just nuke the room. Now you may be asking, "What if I DO get seen?" Again nuke the room grab the data, the only reward is triple the normal amount of affinty, while nice it is not a great method of getting affinity and will still give an item even if you trip the alarm.

Basically, there is no reason to bring a stealth frame into a stealth mission. It will be either slower, depending on which stealth frame you are using for invisibility, or slower because the stealth frames generally have lower kill power (room nuke) than dps frames. Ash as it stands is in a middle ground of being a stealth and a dps so he depends on your playstyle. Overall there is just not a solid incentive to being a stealth player other than, "Ya, I killed all those people and they didn't see me." Which is fun, yes, but that doesn't help that stealth frames are now the worst for completing stealth missions at a reasonable pace.

From there you may ask, "But what if I REALLY want to bring a stealth frame?" You bring Ivara who skips every aspect of stealth and can walk right up to the objective. (I get she is supposed to be THE stealth frame, but she simply bypasses the stealth mechanics and is basically a "I don't really want to do this mission" frame.) And if you want to actually challenge yourself it just won't feel worth the time, there will be too many enemies for stealth take downs.

Issues with Rescue:

Rescue follows pretty much of all the issues of Spy. No matter how much noise you cause outside, it will not matter in the prison itself and the only concern when inside is being seen, so again you can just nuke the room and walk in no issue. You get no real benefit for not being seen at any point and if you are you just rush the cells and leave. At no point do you actually need to be quiet. Now I understand that this may not be preferred for all players, but completely negating the need for the stealth frames and stealth weapons in stealth missions just doesn't make sense.

Issues with the stealth frames in standard gameplay:

While they are an extremely niche playstyle in standard gameplay there really isn't any good reason to bring the stealth characters unless you build them for 0 stealth style gameplay. As an example: Ivara. If you want her to be useful to her team in any way, she needs to be able to kill rapidly just the same as any other dps. So you either bring a weapon that can kill fast or in a large area. Her augment turns her bow into a worse version of the Kuva Bramma. Where the Bramma just simply explodes for a lot of damage you have to hit a headshot to get the same affect with her augment. More rewarding when you land that headshot and feels good to do so, but you are contributing far less than if you had brought a support or a proper dps. 

I know I am asking a lot here:
The best thing I can think of to give stealth players more purpose in the horde shooter that the game has become is give them unique rewards for playing how they want to play and bring back that ninja feel to their play.

1. In Spy and Rescue give better rewards for not alerting enemies up to the target location. Also fewer enemies up to that point so take downs can be made possible from stealth again. (Maybe revert arrows launching enemies across the room as well. That way we have better control of where our target dies. Or give a toggle for bows on whether to launch the target away or kill on the spot.)

2. In the non stealth missions, give side objectives designated for stealth frames so they can support their team in a unique way. In survival they become the agent sneaking about the ship (If they choose) to obtain rewards or can gain access to enemy life support systems scattered around the map while enemy spawns will be increased around the players with the most armor/doing the most damage (This will also make healers feel like they have purpose again since they now need to keep the tank and dps safe) and less so around the stealth frame using silent weapons. In defense they can sneak off from the objective and activate defenses or disable enemy spawns from certain directions. This would also require the stealth frame to be designated either through a little check box for the player who would like to fulfil the role or through their equipment and abilities, I.E. Low armor, silent weapons (Using more single target weapons and not explosive with a hush mod), goes invisible to drop aggro/enemy spawn priority. Basically some check in place to prevent other roles from doing their job once again but better.

2.5. Have a way to designate the stealth frame for the objective role and try to prevent 2 stealth frames from matching in the same group. Stealth frames as it stands would be: Wisp (Debatable), Ivara, Loki and Ash. I know Octavia can go invisible but I have a post that mentions why that should be taken away from her found here: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1365593-idea-for-an-octavia-rework/ I am also aware of Wukong's Cloud Walker, but he is just a dps with noclip.

3. We need more stealth frames. There are very few of them that can be considered proper stealth frames and that play style is still a loved one. I know nukers are the most popular, because of the current playstyle of the game. But with some changes, hopefully the ones listed here, they could be a more than viable member of a party. 

TLDR:

 

-Stealth players need more of a reward for completing stealth missions in stealth

-Better gameplay for stealth players in standard missions

-More stealth frames

[CrownOfShadows]

I support you 100%

Warframe deserves a complete stealth overhaul imo, with better mechanics, better enemies, better missions. Half of the problem is there are just so few ways to actually sneak around in the game, and half of it is the missions aren't designed for sneaking (maybe originally, but the game shoved them aside and just favors the bulldozer approach now). Stealth missions need their own enemy types and spawns -  and should be completely distinct from regular gameplay, slower paced, dangerous, fewer but deadlier enemies with real guard mechanics, distinct AI if possible.

When it comes to stealth frames, I am actually of the opinion that it should be impossible to do stealth missions without them, or extremely difficult, or twice as long or something like that. If you don't force them to be used, they never will be - people will always bring nukes. Like I think they should lean really hard into it, or otherwise get rid of stealth frames as an idea altogether and just give every frame a special new suite of stealth moves. Like if you're going to have dedicated stealth frames... then they should have a job only they can do really well, otherwise what's the point? And yes there are way too few of them, but that's a symptom of a wider problem - hyper focus on dynasty warriors slaughter and nothing else.

The thing is, warframe is really honestly not that far from being able to produce great stealth mechanics. So many stealth systems are already in place! Cameras, alarms, alert levels, assassinations - they just need to make a Stealth 2.0 design pass, add a few systems and really build for it in a dedicated way instead of just ignoring it. The only problem is I think we're the minority, and that most of the warframe masses would prefer that stealth was just straight up removed altogether, which is a real shame, because warframe needs the gameplay variety :(

[Tiltskillet]

17 hours ago, Asono said:

However, in modern stealth missions, there are enemies everywhere. It is damn near impossible to stealth anything in the game without needing constant invisibility or ways to isolate enemies

Is that a recent change? I mean, "recent" relative to the video, which is 10 years old.  Perhaps 2-3 years ago I did a fair amount of this on frames that weren't using invisibility, and weren't brute forcing.  (Unless I bungled it, which happened from time to time.)  There were easier maps than others, but the main problem wasn't enemy spawns exactly, it was sufficient cover and/or alternate routes near the ceiling or semi-hidden tunnels.   I don't know that I ever did it in SP, where spawns seem like they could be very problematic. 

Even in regular missions, it was about as inefficient as one could imagine for farming.  But it was fun, which always made me think the framework for a  good stealth game was still there under the horde shooter surface.

As far as the topic goes, I'm all for more advanced stealth missions.  Ideally that don't make invisibility mandatory, but  have more and more effective countermeasures against both  invisibility and brute force. 

[Asono]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

As far as the topic goes, I'm all for more advanced stealth missions.  Ideally that don't make invisibility mandatory, but  have more and more effective countermeasures against both  invisibility and brute force. 

That was my main concern as well. I want stealth to be accessible to more than just invisibility frames. But want it to be clear who is running the stealth set ups and style. I used the video as an example of that style as well. Ash has invisibility, all be it a shorter one than most. But could still complete the mission by being careful with movement and kills. I stated the specific stealth frames as an idea since they were designed around being sneaky in one way or another. Ash has quick executions and can smoke bomb to get out of bad situations, Loki has his various ways of disarming/confusing enemies, and a really long stealth but I think it fits him as a trickster. And Ivara mostly because of her quiver. I think she has the best invis since she has to be slower while using it, but I don't really like that she has an augment that just bypasses stealth mechanics. It's nice to use when you just don't want to deal with the mission at that moment. But not that it just allows you to bypass an entire game mode.

[Asono]

5 hours ago, CrownOfShadows said:

I support you 100%

Warframe deserves a complete stealth overhaul imo, with better mechanics, better enemies, better missions. Half of the problem is there are just so few ways to actually sneak around in the game, and half of it is the missions aren't designed for sneaking (maybe originally, but the game shoved them aside and just favors the bulldozer approach now). Stealth missions need their own enemy types and spawns -  and should be completely distinct from regular gameplay, slower paced, dangerous, fewer but deadlier enemies with real guard mechanics, distinct AI if possible.

When it comes to stealth frames, I am actually of the opinion that it should be impossible to do stealth missions without them, or extremely difficult, or twice as long or something like that. If you don't force them to be used, they never will be - people will always bring nukes. Like I think they should lean really hard into it, or otherwise get rid of stealth frames as an idea altogether and just give every frame a special new suite of stealth moves. Like if you're going to have dedicated stealth frames... then they should have a job only they can do really well, otherwise what's the point? And yes there are way too few of them, but that's a symptom of a wider problem - hyper focus on dynasty warriors slaughter and nothing else.

The thing is, warframe is really honestly not that far from being able to produce great stealth mechanics. So many stealth systems are already in place! Cameras, alarms, alert levels, assassinations - they just need to make a Stealth 2.0 design pass, add a few systems and really build for it in a dedicated way instead of just ignoring it. The only problem is I think we're the minority, and that most of the warframe masses would prefer that stealth was just straight up removed altogether, which is a real shame, because warframe needs the gameplay variety :(

Well a key thing is that the mechanics in place are from the older warframe before it became the horde shooter. And the mechanics were just left in the background while the game got faster and faster all around. But even with the new horde shooter style, or as you put it 'Dynasty Warriors' (Great comparison by the way that is pretty much spot on) There is so much you can do with stealth in that environment. I just want that to be explored more.

I also just want to play my jellyfish (Ivara) without needing to use a string propelled rocket launcher to feel like I am doing something. I know she is more than fine without the augment but even then she is very much designed to be an archer and without the augment she still feels very single target oriented.

[HasagiReportJngl]

В 08.12.2023 в 04:32, Asono сказал:

In Spy and Rescue give better rewards for not alerting enemies up to the target location.

Most players will still rush blasting everything with zarr/bramma/etc. just because this way allows to finish the misson twice or even thrice while stealther crawls in the corners.

[Asono]

On 2023-12-09 at 2:15 PM, HasagiReportJngl said:

Most players will still rush blasting everything with zarr/bramma/etc. just because this way allows to finish the misson twice or even thrice while stealther crawls in the corners.

Sorry to partially necro my own thread, but that is still what I want. I want players to still be able to run through and blast their way through missions if they want to. But I also want stealth players to play the way they want to play on missions. The game provides the weapons, frames and companions to allow for stealth gameplay, but does nothing to really allow it in practice.

I recently ran through a spy mission with a friend with the challenge to do a full proper stealth of the mission, taking no damage. We took our time, cleared out rooms carefully and methodically. We spent an entire hour on that mission, but we were having fun doing so for the most part. But we were met with infinite spawns in nearby rooms, large numbers of enemies respawning just outside the vaults right after we carefully cleared them. It was getting to the point where we were happy just to be done with it.

I want stealth to be able to be done again. An entire gameplay style is fading away and I want it to be kept in. I know it is niche and I know it's no where near as popular and the fast run and gin playstyles. I know the missions can be done faster using meta builds but I know not everyone likes that, not everyone wants the meta they want to play how they want to. Whether it be loud or quiet. 

The point of my request at a stealth update is not to make it meta, but to make it an accessible playstyle, to reward players who want to do it. A full hour of crawling along got us the same rewards as a player running in without a care in the world. But it gave us a taste at a slower pace, a more tactical playstyle. A playstyle we enjoyed. The game is getting faster, spawns are getting higher and enemies stronger and with it freedom of playstyle is fading. That is what I am asking for, the preservation and freedom of playstyles.

Edited December 25, 2023 by Asono