Null Star's Helminth version needs to be adjusted for usability

[Hexerin]

It should grant the full 18 particles at baseline (no longer affected by ability duration), and killing enemies should restore lost particles (emulating the effect of Molecular Prime's augment, which the Helminth version doesn't have access to).

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

it unlikely DE will do any helmeth specific buffs.

Edited December 17, 2023 by (PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson

[Hexerin]

4 minutes ago, (PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson said:

it unlikely DE will do any helmeth specific buffs.

[(PSN)Shaun-T-Wilson]

To be more specific to your feed back null star was too OP as an helmeth ability that DE Nerfed it hard awhile back - its unlikely that you suggestions will be balanced enough for DE to considering to buff. 

You could add in what ways each of your suggestions will make Null star more balanced? 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

It should grant the full 18 particles at baseline (no longer affected by ability duration), and killing enemies should restore lost particles (emulating the effect of Molecular Prime's augment, which the Helminth version doesn't have access to).

It seems odd to make the injection explicitly more flexible than it is on Nova herself, between making it max DR and giving it a better version of an augment for free.  What's your reasoning?

[Hexerin]

59 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

It seems odd to make the injection explicitly more flexible than it is on Nova herself, between making it max DR and giving it a better version of an augment for free.  What's your reasoning?

How is this more flexible than Null Star on Nova? Nova gets the 18 particles on cast, and it's essentially impossible to lose them. This just brings the Helminth version up to par with the ability on Nova herself. The Helminth version as it currently stands, is essentially unusable. There's only a couple frames that actually push over 300% ability duration, and even on those frames, you have no way to restore the particles you inevitably lose.

[Tiltskillet]

20 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

How is this more flexible than Null Star on Nova? Nova gets the 18 particles on cast,

But not with zero investment.

21 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

it's essentially impossible to lose them.

Not without sacrificing a mod slot for Molecular Fission and recasting of Molecular Prime.

Other frames do have access to refresh through Neutron Star.

[Hexerin]

8 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

But not with zero investment.

Not without sacrificing a mod slot for Molecular Fission and recasting of Molecular Prime.

Other frames do have access to refresh through Neutron Star.

What investment? She has >300% ability duration by default because that's how Nova works. You literally don't build her any other way, unless you're doing some meme/gimmick. However, you don't design games around memes/gimmicks, so those alternative builds are irrelevant.

Molecular Fission is mandatory on Nova. You're gimping yourself and griefing your squad if you don't equip it. It'd be like not using Energy Transfer on Equinox, or not using Cathode Current on Gyre, or not using Eternal War on Valkyr, etc etc etc.

That's not a refresh. A refresh is pushing the button and it restarts the ability. Citrine's Preserving Shell can be refreshed, for example. Additionally, most frames aren't going to have any space for an augment from another frame to shove into their build, without crippling themselves.

I dunno why you're attempting to argue against Helminth Null Star being made actually usable for other frames. It's a very limited survivability tool, but it's the only one available via Helminth. It has a list of restrictions and requirements, and all you get out of that is 90% DR that only affects health. It isn't something actually universally strong like Adaptation, that affects both health and shields. Bringing it up to par with how it actually works on the frame it's from is not asking much.

[sunderthefirmament]

10 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

What investment? She has >300% ability duration by default because that's how Nova works.

That is how most people build her, but that takes a lot of investment in terms of forma, mod spaces, and even shards at times.  The mod slots that Nova spends on duration are not spent on other things then.  You're essentially saying other frames should get >300% duration Null Star just by slapping a Helminth ability on them, regardless of the duration in their own build.  It's absurd.

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

That is how most people build her, but that takes a lot of investment in terms of forma, mod spaces, and even shards at times.  The mod slots that Nova spends on duration are not spent on other things then.  You're essentially saying other frames should get >300% duration Null Star just by slapping a Helminth ability on them, regardless of the duration in their own build.  It's absurd.

Read what I'm writing:

BECAUSE NOVA DOESN'T HAVE TO SPEND ANYTHING TO GET IT

It's not good design that other frames have to go so far and beyond out of the norm to get what Nova gets innately.

This isn't complicated, please start using your brains.

[Tiltskillet]

59 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

What investment? She has >300% ability duration by default because that's how Nova works.

Sunder covered this, though I'd add that another reason most Nova builds are constructed this way is because 90% DR is a really handy thing to have.  I don't think it should be available for 25 energy and some helminth scrapings with no downsides.  As much as it'd amuse me on Nezha or Citrine. 

 

1 hour ago, Hexerin said:

I dunno why you're attempting to argue against Helminth Null Star being made actually usable for other frames.

You're reading more into what I've said than what I've said.  It's not that adversarial.

  I'd agree there's an issue with injected Null Star.  Largely because Nova is designed so that 300 duration isn't anywhere near as big a deal as it is on the vast majority of frames.  (That doesn't mean it's free on her either though.)  I haven't put any thought into how I'd fix it, but I don't think both making it automatically 90% and baking in the augment for free on other frames is reasonable.