Potential incarnon nerfs on the horizon: Warranted for genesis incarnons?

[Kaiga]

Context: Brozime asking about orange shard crit interactions working as intended. 

Thoughts?

[(PSN)Sentiel]

I'd appreciate if DE kindly didn't nerf things like Incarnons and Archon Shards since we have invested a lot of time and resources to obtain them and they became an integral part of our builds.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

We'll see I suppose 

[Traumtulpe]

...that's odd, what Pablo is saying doesn't exactly make sense.

The issue is, Brozime was asking about the destinction between final additive crit, and multiplicative (like a mod) crit. In the response however, Pablo brings up Incarnon evolutions, which are base crit - thats completely different and unrelated, and also it is intended to be base crit.

Either Pablo is confused here, didn't very well communicate what he meant, or he's just looking for excuses to nerf the Torid. We shall see...

Edited December 26, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Xzorn]

I think he just means the lack of key words "Additive" / "Multiplicative" / "Base Value".

I would prefer to fix the belligerently powerful Incarnons over dumping on the Riven Disposition.

I have an 8 year old Torrid Riven from 100 rolls I knew would never change because no one outside endurance runners knew of it's power.
Now I can't stop using it for anything. One hit and I go Incarnon thanks to a Multishot of 4.8. Just reduce the number of beam chains or something.

I only invested in hipster Rivens for high level enemies cuz of pointless disposition changes. Hate it so much.

[Pizzarugi]

Never used the shards, so I don't think I'll have much to worry about.

If you avoid things that are so obviously OP that it's screaming to get nerfed, you won't be upset when it finally happens.

(Bramma/Zarr mains should take notes :P)

Edited December 26, 2023 by Pizzarugi

[Arbitrary]

27 minutes ago, Kaiga said:

Context: Brozime asking about orange shard crit interactions working as intended. 

Thoughts?

Pablo is just talking about making how different buffs are applied more clear.
He uses Torid as an example since one of its evolutions is +Critical chance.

Basically he wants to make it more clear that stuff like Point Strike (Multiplies base critical chance) is a different layer of buff than Arcane Avenger (adds to critical chance after other buffs), or Torid's Crit buff evolution (adds to critical chance before other buffs). Currently the wording on the buffs don't indicate that they fit into different layers. Pablo isn't talking about nerfs at all.

 

[Traumtulpe]

28 minutes ago, ArbitraryWisdom said:

Pablo is just talking about making how different buffs are applied more clear.

Well that makes sense then.

[Hexerin]

28 minutes ago, ArbitraryWisdom said:

Pablo is just talking about making how different buffs are applied more clear.
He uses Torid as an example since one of its evolutions is +Critical chance.

Basically he wants to make it more clear that stuff like Point Strike (Multiplies base critical chance) is a different layer of buff than Arcane Avenger (adds to critical chance after other buffs), or Torid's Crit buff evolution (adds to critical chance before other buffs). Currently the wording on the buffs don't indicate that they fit into different layers. Pablo isn't talking about nerfs at all.

 

This is correct.

[Numerounius]

Ugh, another twitter post regarding gameplay changes. Can we please stop with that Pablo? Or at least change it so that it is available for everyone to view in an official capacity? The unofficial platform that you use has become notoriously difficult to extract content if you are not signed in and in general.

The wording suggests this is just general gameplay design wording and not something they are specifically targeting. I don't think it is being called a nerf but rather needing to do some wording adjustment to fix. People will probably be up in arms about it after the patch, similar to exodia contagion heavy attack, but will probably still remain very strong once the initial hype has died down from the fix. If it does end up being way too harsh, hopefully they do go back and bring everything back up to snuff rather than leaving stuff under-powered.

 

Speaking of unclear, yeah there is a giant list of things that could probably go on that list that needs to be cleaned up some of which has been officially addressed but also needs to be addressed in-game. Lets see what's on top of that list for me.

Scattered Justice x Kuva Hek

Exodia Contagion x Double Jump

Garuda Talons and Archon mods and by extension archon shards. This one should be the most important and definitely needs some clearing up if we are talking about investment needed for a potentially non-existent synergy which is what Brozime is alluding to in his tweets.

[Loza03]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

I'd appreciate if DE kindly didn't nerf things like Incarnons and Archon Shards since we have invested a lot of time and resources to obtain them and they became an integral part of our builds.

It's inevitable some big sweeping balance change will happen eventually, whether it's stat squishing everything up or down. DE have done stuff like it before, and will do again. And failing that, eventually this meta will get outclassed by enough other things (no idea what as yet, but DE always surprises me on that front), that the build will be obsoleted that way instead, and all the time you invested will be wasted just the same. Tigris Prime used to be the biggest kid on the block and the face of overpowered, after all.

So, think of it this way - the sooner they make changes like this, and the more dedicated they are to balance overall, the less time will get wasted in the future.

[0_The_F00l]

I hope they distill the various multipliers into fewer manageable ones. 

It is extremely confusing for most players how they stack together.

[Armadillidium_vulgare]

He's not talking about nerfing incarnons, he's talking about clarifying the language around how critical chance is applied, as additive vs base vs multiplicative like mods and so on is currently very unclear in-game.

Please stop being hysterical and lay down for a while. Reading comprehension is your friend.

[Skoomaseller]

prob not nerfs but a general change in the language they use to identify the various ways our crit gets bumped up. 

[Silligoose]

11 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Context: Brozime asking about orange shard crit interactions working as intended. 

Thoughts?

Yes, nerfs for Incarnon Genesis weapons are warranted. It is also already done indirectly via mechanics such as damage attenuation.

It would be far better for the game, as well as the player base, if weapons performed as advertised accounting for the mechanics of the game (damage type bonusses, armour effect on damage, additive/multiplicative bonuses etc), instead of arbitrarily having different levels of performance against different enemies due to wishy washy "behind the scenes" nerfs via something like damage attenuation, which falls outside of the established game mechanics.

[SneakyErvin]

I just hope they end up using the same wording on all item types and stats.

So if say it is a flat additive bonus that cannot be modified through mods etc. it should say "final" like the crit damage bonus on Tenacious Bond phrases it. So that should apply to Avenger, Adarza precept and so on aswell. Then things like Incarnon Torid Evolution 4 should say "base", then crit mods should preferably phrase it like the new bane mod text, so if a mod increases crit with 100% it would be phrased "multiplies base critical chance by x2.0".

[(PSN)robotwars7]

a language change is not the same as a nerf. unless they drop the N-word itself, or skirt around it with phrases like "reduction in power", there's nothing to worry about.

[Xzorn]

20 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Bramma/Zarr mains should take notes :P)

 

Wait, Zarr? That was an endurance runner pick.
When did the general community pick that up? After the no self-death thing? It was already very forgiving.

I feel like the first time I saw endurance runner weapons and general picks sync was with Akstilleto Prime.
It then quickly vanished with the Sicarus Prime buff. I can see at some point players figured out Tombfinger was good due to my Riven disposition.

[Crevab]

They could also still be doing bugfixes that cause nerfs. They never responded to this, for example.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1362023-boar-prime-incarnon-status-buffs-not-working-as-intended/#comment-12869853

[Tiltskillet]

51 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Wait, Zarr?

You are probably thinking of  old school Zarr. The much more powerful  Kuva Zarr came with the Sisters of Parvos update. (While I think you were on break.) It became the #1 most used primary in the game until the big AoE rebalance in late 2022.

https://www.warframe.com/2022stats

[BiancaRoughfin]

21 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

If you avoid things that are so obviously OP that it's screaming to get nerfed, you won't be upset when it finally happens.

(Bramma/Zarr mains should take notes :P)

Exactly my way of thought.

[Xzorn]

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

You are probably thinking of  old school Zarr. The much more powerful  Kuva Zarr came with the Sisters of Parvos update. (While I think you were on break.) It became the #1 most used primary in the game until the big AoE rebalance in late 2022.

https://www.warframe.com/2022stats

 

That's a lot of Zarr.

Ah, that explains it. The primary blast is nearly 4x while the Bomblets are half. The Bomblet status being what made it good for longer runs.
Kinda dumb the bomblets cause self stagger though since there's only minimal control over where they end up. (shoot the feet)

[Tiltskillet]

12 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Kinda dumb the bomblets cause self stagger though since there's only minimal control over where they end up.

It is a bit, though the meta became to ignore stagger through PSF or a status immunity power anyway.  (To add to the list of dumb design.)

 

[Dunkelheit]

vor 22 Stunden schrieb Pizzarugi:

If you avoid things that are so obviously OP that it's screaming to get nerfed, you won't be upset when it finally happens.

(Bramma/Zarr mains should take notes :P)

Things that are kinda OP at the moment and outclassing other weapons heavily:
Saryn + Melee Influence + Dual Ichor
Torrid (for that kind of AOE, it should be way harder to get that incarnon meter to full)

If you are using this, don't become mad when they nerf it, because this is for the good of the game.

[Hexerin]

7 hours ago, Crevab said:

They could also still be doing bugfixes that cause nerfs. They never responded to this, for example.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1362023-boar-prime-incarnon-status-buffs-not-working-as-intended/#comment-12869853

There's many completely broken incarnon evolutions, and DE doesn't care about them. No surprise to see another.

For example, there's an evolution that literally just doesn't function at all: