A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[Raptorator]

.......Sorry, lost my words about how awesome this is.

[Rajko]

Wow, that was a massive read.  It's very interesting, and I like a lot of what you propose, but it feels like you want the game to be some kind of love child of The Witcher 2 and Dead Space 3 for the character loadout 'stuff', while not fleshing out your ideas on those experiences you mention.  I'd like to read more from you on your ideas to take that experience and make it something better.  

 

Skill requirements will not be injected into the game or enhanced by altering the strategy of loadouts or customization.  I think it would tip the game much further away from casual play, as well.

 

 I agree that the catch-em-all sense of accomplishment and progression is the over-riding gameplay experience as of update 11 (and every update I've played so far).  I also agree it should not be (or feel like) the main progression element.  

 

I don't see that changing unless the game begins to focus on story elements as much as adding content, and finding ways to make team play fun and challenging and flexible in the fast paced niche Warframe wants to occupy.

 

The problem with that is that the Quest for Stuff mechanic cannot go away in a free to play game.  No matter how much story the game contains, content must drive the game to grow, and the Quest for Stuff drives that.  

 

Regardless of what happens with the mod system, combos, etc, as long as the game progresses towards more and more enjoyable and challenging co-operative play, and adds in additional scenarios, it will be moving forward.

 

 

Further, because the environments are procedural, it becomes more difficult to re-focus away Quest for Stuff'ing (thanksgiving time, sorry). 

 

These are minor quibbles, really, that I'm tacking in here, and not aimed at what you've posted so much as alongside it.  The gameplay needs to require more skill, and I'm all for greater depth and customization of just about everything.  Your ideas seem pretty amazing, and I respect the awesome effort you put into that post.  

Edited November 26, 2013 by Rajko

[Esforzato]

This is the absolute best. You are such a goddamn genius, I stopped lurking just to tell you this. Still, I feel this will most likely be ignored, because such is life.

[tmtke]

@LukeAura: I can perfectly understand the urge behind the OPs ideas, I really don't like the grind aspect too. I have spent years playing Quake 3. But for cooperative gameplay there are no skill contests like in a 1 vs 1 duel, or 2 vs 2 tdm or 4 vs 4 ctf. From the ingame observer the other players movements and skills are not as visible as you might think. The enemy AI or skill set, even a lot of specially designed areas can improve the feeling, but it won't be enough for several hundreds of hours of gameplay. I'm over 250 hours in warframe (didn't play longer with anything since Q3:A), and simply can't state that the current mechanics is broken because of the mod system. It's just broken because of the balancing and the lots of unneccesary content (lots of different weapons, all new weapons are far more effective than the old ones, and so on). There is a lot of possibilities which arent used, like there are a lot of rooms, but the map generator algorithm is too simple and most maps are just long start-to-end caves. If the players have to explore things, the whole gameplay is changed. For example in certain situations vauban is needed to put down a jump pad for the squad to reach a higher area to advance, and so on. Did anyone find out (or how many in a % value) that in the last events large teleport room had a secret room on the right above the sidelined starships and how to get there? This would be a really low percentage, because for the level completion you didn't needed that.

[Eremes]

"Meaning, you cannot continually release mods and use them as a crutch for content."

trading is endgame so it kinda works. cant wait for dragon vaults on regular void!

 

im mildly interested in stealth. with the addition of the scanner, cleaning a room becamed clunkyer and harder to organize, but at last gaved it a reward, plus it allows to overcome one of the shortcomings of the minimap, we can see where the enemies are headed. i do belive its a very brute and hopefully unfinished solution to the stealth issue in the game.

 

i liked the idea that you gaved for warframes but the weapon just sounded like you had a personal bone to pick against serration. with the mods out of the story and the weapons as the main shine on the game a player would simply exchange the grind for serration/barrel diffusion for the rank to build soma and leveling it. why not make the weapons have innate buffs to those status everyone would want but never mod for? ranking up guns could add reload rate, innate puncture, tighter spread, faster holstering speed, stuff that makes sense for you to get when you are used to a weapon rather that simply "oh wow im shooting bigger bullets!" every new level.

 

i liked the idea of melee having depth. i didnt quite liked the idea of "refunding" HP due to combos, id much rather if the warframe itself could help the player to recover health. did you knew that a butcher[1] can attack you with a slash proc doing ~40 damage over 6 seconds? for a new player thats a fantastic 10% chance to lose a half of their HP every time a butcher gets close.

[Feauce]

I would love to see something like this come into actual use.

[Kyte]

But... Remember Me's melee system sucked.

[Shadowcrusnik]

Unlike most, i read through the ENTIRE thing.

 

This, is the best, most effective, greatest, most well thought through concept/idea/fix for Warframe that would make the game the best game i have ever played.

 

period.

[Phatose]

Looks to me like it would kill the game.

 

The mod system, for better or worse, is the only thing that gives the game any staying power.  Content updates are time consuming to make, and mod grinding is really the only thing to do within updates.

 

We'd burn through all the content in a week, and then leave cause there would be nowhere else to go, nothing worthwhile to do.

[theGreatZamboni]

Looks to me like it would kill the game.

 

The mod system, for better or worse, is the only thing that gives the game any staying power.  Content updates are time consuming to make, and mod grinding is really the only thing to do within updates.

 

We'd burn through all the content in a week, and then leave cause there would be nowhere else to go, nothing worthwhile to do.

 

What I am proposing is a complete scrapping of the Mod Card system. In it's place, specific systems for the 3 most important aspects of the game: Warframes, Gunplay and Melee. If you create a solid foundation in these 3 systems, you can design enemies and content around them, everything else will fall into place.

 

Mods=/=content.

Edited November 26, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Phatose]

You're missing the point.  Designing enemies and content around them takes a great deal of time - considerably longer then it takes to burn out on it without some overarcing goal.

 

Mods are currently that goal - the reason we have to keep playing.  What's the new reason going to be?  Even good content will get old fast without some goal to shoot for.

[bobafetthotmail]

hahah, I read the melee part. It reminds me of the lightsaber forms from Knights of The Old Repubblic.

There it was kinda useless due to game limitations, here it would be earth-shaking.

[bobafetthotmail]

You're missing the point.  Designing enemies and content around them takes a great deal of time - considerably longer then it takes to burn out on it without some overarcing goal.

 

Mods are currently that goal - the reason we have to keep playing.  What's the new reason going to be?  Even good content will get old fast without some goal to shoot for.

That would be a story. Some decent lore.

[Phatose]

That would be a story. Some decent lore.

 

Which runs into the same problem as leaning on constant content updates.  It takes much less time to consume that then it does to create it.  Same effect - run through new story in U12 in a couple of days, run through any new weapons and frames.  Then you've got nothing to do until U13 in a couple of months.

[theGreatZamboni]

You're missing the point.  Designing enemies and content around them takes a great deal of time - considerably longer then it takes to burn out on it without some overarcing goal.

 

Mods are currently that goal - the reason we have to keep playing.  What's the new reason going to be?  Even good content will get old fast without some goal to shoot for.

 

I do not even believe what I am reading. It's one thing to disagree with what I said, that is fine. To say that Mods should be the driving force for player retention, that grind should be the game, is ludicrous. If you create a foundation that can stand on its own, then build content around it that is engaging and compliments the fundamentals of your foundation; you don't need mods, excessive drops or grind. People will play the game to progress. Because the current game modes are lacking, this new foundation would act as the means to keep players involved while the core modes are looked at again. This foundation would keep the game afloat based on the merits of player interaction alone, while new and engaging content is created.

 

If this game just had Excalibur, the Skana, Lato and Braton; with an engaging system of play, you don't need 300 Waframes or Weapons. But adding them would enhance the experience. When your game is stripped down to it's bare bones and cannot stand by itself, there is an issue.

 

You also make the assumption that Mods are the only thing holding the game together. The reason to keep playing is the gameplay. In a MOBA, MMO, FPS the core game keeps people engaged. The new Champions, Content and Maps keep people coming back. Because these things compliment and expand on the core.

 

You also make it seem as if DE are incapable of doing this. They have nothing but time. This is what they do for a living. To make concessions based on what is easy, to sacrifice over a decades worth of strife is just sad to see.

Edited November 26, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Feauce]

Mods=/=content.

Absolutely, this.

Without using mods as a crutch to push gameplay, they could take a page out of the MMO handbook: daily quests. In addition to timed alerts, there could be daily alerts for each system. Plus, you could have a set of goals for each system apart from simple node completion. Things like "Find X/Y/Z secret areas," for instance, or "Reach wave X/Y/Z in Defense/Survival."

[Phatose]

Absolutely, this.

Without using mods as a crutch to push gameplay, they could take a page out of the MMO handbook: daily quests. In addition to timed alerts, there could be daily alerts for each system. Plus, you could have a set of goals for each system apart from simple node completion. Things like "Find X/Y/Z secret areas," for instance, or "Reach wave X/Y/Z in Defense/Survival."

 

Daily quests for what?  There's nothing to quest *for*.  Same with goals - what's the payoff for that?

[Shadowcrusnik]

Wait wait wait. This is WARFRAME we were talking about?

 

I thought it was the Mighty Quest for Epic [Mods]

[theGreatZamboni]

Daily quests for what?  There's nothing to quest *for*.  Same with goals - what's the payoff for that?

 

Please stop, you are going to derail the thread with your ignorance. I suggest you re-read the thread. All of it. Every post including yours.

Edited November 26, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Phatose]

I do not even believe what I am reading. It's one thing to disagree with what I said, that is fine. To say that Mods should be the driving force for player retention, that grind should be the game, is ludicrous. If you create a foundation that can stand on its own, then build content around it that is engaging and compliments the fundamentals of your foundation; you don't need mods, excessive drops or grind. People will play the game to progress. Because the current game modes are lacking, this new foundation would act as the means to keep players involved while the core modes are looked at again. This foundation would keep the game afloat based on the merits of player interaction alone, while new and engaging content is created.

 

If this game just had Excalibur, the Skana, Lato and Braton; with an engaging system of play, you don't need 300 Waframes or Weapons. But adding them would enhance the experience. When your game is stripped down to it's bare bones and cannot stand by itself, there is an issue.

 

You also make the assumption that Mods are the only thing holding the game together. The reason to keep playing is the gameplay. In a MOBA, MMO, FPS the core game keeps people engaged. The new Champions, Content and Maps keep people coming back. Because these things compliment and expand on the core.

 

You also make it seem as if DE are incapable of doing this. They have nothing but time. This is what they do for a living. To make concessions based on what is easy, to sacrifice over a decades worth of strife is just sad to see.

 

MOBAs and FPSs both rely heavily on human opponents to provide a continual changing environment.  No AI can ever hope to match that level of variety, and that's what provides longevity.  MMOs both have always included extraordinarily time consuming goals so that players have a reason to continue playing.  Raid grinds, level grinds.  These exist to give a game longevity.

 

You want to change the fundamentals, fine, OK.  But your change is removing the only long term goal this game has, and you're not offering a replacement for it.  Where's the staying power?

 

That's not derailing, that's criticism.

[notionphil]

You are suggesting such a disruptive, fundamental rewrite of essentially every customization system that there has to be a more parsimonious method of achieving your goal.

 

That could be because it's not 100% clear what your goal is besides 'making the game more fun'; however you've certainly presented a very polished proposal for achieving something.

 

If your goal is to make progression more customizable, and less dependent on grinding then equipping necessary mods... that could be in an evolutionary manner within the current system. Suggesting that DE essentially scrap all customization in WF isn't necessary in order to achieve your goal.

 

EX:

 

You could have suggested something where all 'core' mods are earned via challenging mastery-like tests, and they all rank up as you achieve better scores on those tests.

 

You could also have divide mods in to per-category types, such as primary barrel, stock etc, creating variations of the core mods that players choose between. (serration OR barrel diffusion goes on the barrel, pick one, for example).

 

In my opinion, you're kind of going the long way around the barn to get somewhere that's honestly not too far away from where we are now. It would be a good place to be, but there's got to be a better way to get there.

 

PS - nice mockups by the way

 

EDIT - I'm not referring to the OP's melee system suggestions. a disruptive change is pretty much required in melee due to its utter lack of utility, skill and effectiveness -  however, i don't agree that it needs to scrap mods or be that complicated.

Edited November 26, 2013 by notionphil

[ThePresident777]

You shouldn't be commenting on all that unless you read it. Some of it IS pretty great. 

 

 I'd probably change melee different then he wants to though.

I didn't comment on everything he said, only his premise.

[Feauce]

Daily quests for what? There's nothing to quest *for*. Same with goals - what's the payoff for that?

The quests would behave like the alerts we already have, except likely increased rewards considering their once-per-day status.

And we wouldn't necessarily need any payoff for the system goals. As an example, there's achievements in other Steam games, and internally in games like Rift. They don't gain you anything usually, except a "Hey, I did this." There's people that would pass those by, but others would complete every single one they could. The point is, it would give people more to do than just rush bosses and grind Survival/Defense missions. It would also make the early game for new players more interesting.

[ThePresident777]

Reading comprehension:

 

 

Saying you stopped reading barely 1/10 of the way through just to comment seems counterproductive.

I said that I read up to the part where he starts to make specific suggestions. I said that I read his premise. That means that i read the part you quoted, Mr. Reading Comprehension.

[Rajko]

Something was nagging me about the complexity of the OP suggestion, and Notionphil just nailed why.  It's very interesting and sounds like a fun system, but it's too big a step for anyone to take. 

 

I also want to toss this opinion out there, it's my personal one.  The primary goal of playing Warframe is to be a space ninja and do fun space ninja stuff co-operatively with others.  

 

Loadout complexity supports that co-op experience, but it doesn't define it by any means.  Lore, believe it or not, also supports that co-op experience.  Therefore, imho, the primary focus of development is/should be to emphasize and expand on that co-op experience.  After that, because of the game model, comes content/revenue and lore.

 

I do think that mods being the hardest to attain object places excessive attention on going out and getting those mods, but whether or not the mod system is utterly overhauled, that system is just in service to supporting the gameplay.  It's the co-op experience that needs further complexity to increase the longevity of the game experience.

 

Since Mods 2.0 was launched, the game entered a phase where the amount of content released has over doubled that which previously existed in the game, and also focused on an overhaul of factions and gameplay mechanics.  It's been an incredible amount of fleshing out.  

 

In the near future is an overhaul of the melee system.  This thread has some amazing suggestions there, and honestly I need to re-read the OP's melee section a few more times to form opinions and responses, but I wanted to put out there that now is probably the best time to start making melee suggestions, as that system will increasingly receive focus by the developer.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Rajko