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A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.


theGreatZamboni
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Now for this image.

https://i.imgur.com/0KncGH4.jpg

That looks like a linear path on each part. How is that gonna solve the problem with all Warframes using the same mods? When here everyone will use the same path.

 

I'm not sure you can judge the outcome of everyone's hypothetical builds when this has been said:

 

You can't really copy paste it without going into detail, the whole thing is a concept it lacks actual numbers and data. Granted I could go through and design all the skill trees, stats, etc- but that isn't the point really. The point is to establish a baseline idea that is sustainable and one that encourages real difficult choices and interesting gameplay. It is written specifically to lead you to your own answers about the game and how my ideas would fit into place. The concept of focusing more on the mechanics of the game, rather than the rewards is not something revolutionary. 

 

As in, you don't know how many slots would actually be given to us in the "Systems" and "Powers" sections because there is no set number of slots or points that has even been suggested by Zamboni. If we were given 5 or so slots, or our current max of 60 points, then yes, I can see people putting in the same mods with maybe one slot being changed out between players.

 

However, if (if), in the "Powers" section, we were given only 3 slots on top of the abilities, I'm fairly certain that there would be a lot more variation and a lot more consideration on the part of the player.

 

With three slots, you can no longer slap duration, range, strength, and efficiency. Only 3 of the 4, and that would simplify things as well as provide some interesting variety. Corrupted mods might become even more appealing for daring builds that focus on increasing singular aspects of a warframe's powers with actual drawbacks that can only be counteracted if you're willing enough to do so.

 

Ex: I go for a power strength build on Volt (it's an example), and that means adding in Blind Rage along with Intensify. However, because of slot limitations, it becomes a tad bit more difficult, and I have a couple options

 

Option 1: Add in Streamline in the last slot to somewhat counteract the reduction in efficiency or Fleeting Expertise to get a positive efficiency value, but deal with the shorter power duration.

 

Option 2: Go for Narrow Minded or Continuity instead for duration on Speed and Electric Shield. Deal with the range reduction on Narrow Minded.

 

Option 3: Throw away Intensify and just do Blind Rage, Fleeting Expertise, and Narrow Minded. However, since there isn't another slot to counteract Narrow Minded's reduction in range, the player will just have to deal with a smaller power radius and the marginal, 5% increase in efficiency. (Range is something that affects 3/4 of his powers)

 

Basically, there would be thought involved and players would be given a bit more freedom in choosing their builds, except there are still some frames that only need, like, two mods to shine. I think I'm OK with that, though, since the one slot leftover would be totally up to the player's preference = build variety. Seriously, having 1 mod out of 3 being determined by the player should be considered as variety!

 

4 mod slots might even work.

 

(I'm all giddy now)

 

As for the "Systems" tree, 3 slots may not be enough since we would be right back where we started; nobody would even think about putting those darn elemental resistance mods into their build. They might need to go into "Utility". Speaking of which, we would probably need upwards of 5 slots in that tree to accommodate player preferences since there's a myriad of those "useless" mods.

 

Or it could work just like our current setup; based on the availability of points, you can put in as many low ranked mods as the # of points you have allows for, or a few maxed out mods that consume most, if not all, your points. The number of total points available would definitely have to be lower than our current limit of 60 for the "Powers" tree, obviously.

 

And again, the Utility tree would still need more capacity than the other two to accommodate all of those mods.

 

Either way (or a completely different way), as long as the "Systems" and "Powers" trees have the correct limitations (not too worried about Utility), the end result is quite the opposite of what you predict.

Edited by OptimumBow0
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OsPP00l.gif

 

Seriously though, the game is still in beta. What exactly were you expecting when you picked it up? Most early access/beta games are lacking some degree of gameplay and/or polish, they amount that they're lacking varies from game to game. It also happens to be free 2 play, which should give it some degree of wiggle room as far as expectations go. 

 

I'm not trying to convince you to play the game again (as I really couldn't care less), I'm just saying you should have known what you were getting into.

 

 

Uncalled for patronizing tone.

 

It is an open beta game which has been struggling to figure out the direction it wants to take for the past two years. Yet, there is nothing on the drawing board that promises anything worthwhile will be added/changed in the foreseeable future.

 

You say you do not care, yet you take your time to make snide remarks and flame people, instead of providing anything constructive.

 

Thank you for reminding me what kind of people back up this game. Tip, not the nice one.

 

I bet DE is pleased to know you excel at driving out its players. What do you think you have accomplished by acting like this, anyway?

Edited by HansJurgen
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Uncalled for patronizing tone.

 

It is an open beta game which has been struggling to figure out the direction it wants to take for the past two years. Yet, there is nothing on the drawing board that promises anything worthwhile will be added/changed in the foreseeable future.

 

You say you do not care, yet you take your time to make snide remarks and flame people, instead of providing anything constructive.

 

Thank you for reminding me what kind of people back up this game. Tip, not the nice one.

 

I bet DE is pleased to know you excel at driving out its players. What do you think you have accomplished by acting like this, anyway?

 

Nothing I did even remotely matches the definition of the word patronize.

 

I disagree but I'm not going to argue with how you interpret the situation. I also disagree with that bit about nothing on the drawing board promising anything worthwhile. But I'm not going to argue with you on something that is purely a matter of opinion.

 

Snide? Again, nothing I did matches the definition. I have also done nothing that counts as flaming. Your response to mine contains nothing constructive. Pot meet kettle and all that.

 

I'm a fairly nice guy when I want to be. I may not have sugar coated my words, but I did not say anything that comes close to an insult.

 

Whom have I drove from this game? I accomplished my goal, that being to point out that this game is in beta and any one who knows what that means should have been prepared for an incomplete product. It is because of this that threads like this can exist.

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good lord this thread is in absolute disarray to the point where it is not in any way relevant to the source material or original post or whatever you want to call it, its turned into nothing more that a big argument for and against Steve which only has a little relevance with a few more "mentally depleting" arguments and gone-off verbal tennis on the side.

 

please get this back on order (though i realize that is a tall order for any anonymous solicitation)

Edited by AdmiralAvalanche
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Nothing I did even remotely matches the definition of the word patronize.

 

I disagree but I'm not going to argue with how you interpret the situation. I also disagree with that bit about nothing on the drawing board promising anything worthwhile. But I'm not going to argue with you on something that is purely a matter of opinion.

 

Snide? Again, nothing I did matches the definition. I have also done nothing that counts as flaming. Your response to mine contains nothing constructive. Pot meet kettle and all that.

 

I'm a fairly nice guy when I want to be. I may not have sugar coated my words, but I did not say anything that comes close to an insult.

 

Whom have I drove from this game? I accomplished my goal, that being to point out that this game is in beta and any one who knows what that means should have been prepared for an incomplete product. It is because of this that threads like this can exist.

 

That cognitive dissonance. Of course you did not try to troll and be annoying for zero reasons.

 

A two year old beta that keeps adding guns and silly pimp-your-warframe items for gullible fools to buy and not a single decent piece of content to use all that junk for, you know, have an actual game to play. After two years. Yep, makes perfect sense, because it is beta, yo. 

 

Just because a game has an open beta tag slapped over and using the most despicable and widely criticized business model in the game industry, that is the fake free2play garbage, does not mean it is totally fine to be a shallow hallway shooter with a stupendous 4 game modes and some variations of them available to play. After two years in which, guns and useless junk is released on a weekly basis. 

 

Watch me stick around for 5 more years for this game to come out of beta and be essentially the same borefest. 

 

Don't let me stop you from slurping on the koolaid, though.

Edited by HansJurgen
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The good age old topic. Thanks for bringing it up again with such an energetic and meaningful post.

I completely agree with all of this and waiting for _similar_ changes over the year(s)...

But unfortunately I'm pessimistic toward DE's position about the whole of his, you see the issue is simple:

 

They are the parents, they think they know what is good for the child...

But we are the ones playing it over and over and most of the mechanics are just constructed and planned badly, thats what it is. But DE can't hear it since they are blind toward their child.

Shame, could be lightyears of a better game than what it is.

Let's hope that we get some more drastic change later on toward the positive...

 

/Thumbs up

Edited by H0PE
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That cognitive dissonance. Of course you did not try to troll and be annoying for zero reasons.

 

A two year old beta that keeps adding guns and silly pimp-your-warframe items for gullible fools to buy and not a single decent piece of content to use all that junk for, you know, have an actual game to play. After two years. Yep, makes perfect sense, because it is beta, yo. 

 

Just because a game has an open beta tag slapped over and using the most despicable and widely criticized business model in the game industry, that is the fake free2play garbage, does not mean it is totally fine to be a shallow hallway shooter with a stupendous 4 game modes and some variations of them available to play. After two years in which, guns and useless junk is released on a weekly basis. 

 

Watch me stick around for 5 more years for this game to come out of beta and be essentially the same borefest. 

 

Don't let me stop you from slurping on the koolaid, though.

 

Nothing I did matches the definition of cognitive dissonance either... Correct, I was not 'trolling' nor was I trying to be annoying (with or without a reason).

 

I'm not going to argue with your perception of things. I will only say that my perception is different.

 

Please explain how this game utilizes a fake free2play business model. Also, I'd love it if you would cite the study that shows that the majority of the people in the game industry don't like the free2play business model that is used in warframe.

 

No thanks, I don't think I'd enjoy watching you for five years.

 

I don't drink koolaid, I prefer water.

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Wouldn't this just make buying items via platinum invalid, because idk it seems to be a surefire way for DE to lose money so it would seem that they would be against that (not saying DE is money-grubbing, but they got to make a living.) How would this solve that?

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I was wondering, would sentinels and the like fall under the same category as the warframes? (That is, skill tree with utility powers and systems)

Just a thought that came into my head but would the skill tree be something like:

Warframe Loki:

Systems: 40 points

Powers: 50 points

Utility: 30 points (totals to about 120 points)

wherein the points are used to add levels into things such as intruder or redirection and each warframe would have a different allotment of points assigned to each tree e.g. Rhino has 50 systems but 40 power points to allocate as they see fit. Resets would be available to switch up, but its not going to be something like (Rhino has the potential to be as sneaky as Loki) to that effect. Otherwise it would be same frame every time, with the abilities and the base stats of frames being the only differentiating factor.  

 

Also, regarding Formas and Catalysts, I think a good idea (may already be stated) would be as follows:

 

Formas: The problem right now with Formas is that they are used solely for the purpose of: Fix DE's mistakes. Because the polarities don't mesh the way we would like them too for whatever reason; this causes them to create a quick solution for the Mod Card system wherein we pay them to fix the inability to just ADD polarities. This is a bit toxic and with the Mod Card system in place; would lead to the Herp Derp 5-6 forma boltor prime build which does some ridiculous damage per bullet which shoots lava and rainbows. Therefore I'm not sure if I'd want to keep Formas in at all; due to the proposed system not requiring the niche that Formas fill. I think I'll try to go over the Formas and how they would apply to different Aspects of Zamboni's idea.

 

Weapons: The weapons are simpler in the regard that Forma can individually affect each Attachment in Zamboni's proposed system. For example, You have a magazine that carries Shock ammo, but you want to have the combo of armour piercing as well as Toxic for the Corrosive effect. Simply add a forma to add additional 'slots' to your build. Take note that this would Not make the weapon do additional damage, but rather add some effect to make it more viable against a certain faction. However this would fall into the trap of Rainbow/damage builds. This can be solved by having a cap on each attachment as to how many forma one can put onto it. Because lets be honest, Having an 6 forma attachment may as well just have shoved a block of forma into the slot and called it a day.

 

Obviously concerning the niche that some weapons that don't have attachments as stated in Zamboni's Weapon spotlight. This would be a problem, I'm not sure how one would counteract this, but my idea was that the forma could effect those weapons differently. I haven't sorted all my thoughts yet so that might come in a later post.

 

Warframe: This is probably the hardest since there is no way to 'split' changes as the weapons do, because there are already so many changes e.g. you want shields or health you can get those separately from the powers tree and same for the utility and systems. What I had planned was similar to the Current Aura system. Aura's would pretty much be a lost cause in this scenario due to no longer requiring those extra mod points for the sweet min/max builds. What I suggest instead is a Forma can be used for radiating one of your effects onto your teammates, at a lesser effect. This would be able to be changed at will as it already is able to in the current game (swapping polarity spaces) However, again there would be a cap onto the warframe as to how many forma can be added onto it. I think also powers would be available to Forma as well to provide a variety of effects.

 

For example, A Loki can use his power tree to provide invisibility to his entire team, but he can use forma to also grant them the damage buff of melee damage. A Rhino can grant Iron Skin to his squadmates as well, albeit at a lower effectiveness for both occasions. Frost would be able to grant a mini snow globe to his allies and so on. The effects obviously need a little work but I hope the message gets across.

 

Catalysts: The catalysts are pretty simple; increase the skill point capacity for Warframes and perhaps add one additional attachment to your weapon. 

 

I hope you guys critique this idea! I am very much for this idea even if it means something drastic might happen to everything else.

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I was wondering, would sentinels and the like fall under the same category as the warframes? (That is, skill tree with utility powers and systems)

Just a thought that came into my head but would the skill tree be something like:

Warframe Loki:

Systems: 40 points

Powers: 50 points

Utility: 30 points (totals to about 120 points)

wherein the points are used to add levels into things such as intruder or redirection and each warframe would have a different allotment of points assigned to each tree e.g. Rhino has 50 systems but 40 power points to allocate as they see fit. Resets would be available to switch up, but its not going to be something like (Rhino has the potential to be as sneaky as Loki) to that effect. Otherwise it would be same frame every time, with the abilities and the base stats of frames being the only differentiating factor.  

 

Also, regarding Formas and Catalysts, I think a good idea (may already be stated) would be as follows:

 

Formas: The problem right now with Formas is that they are used solely for the purpose of: Fix DE's mistakes. Because the polarities don't mesh the way we would like them too for whatever reason; this causes them to create a quick solution for the Mod Card system wherein we pay them to fix the inability to just ADD polarities. This is a bit toxic and with the Mod Card system in place; would lead to the Herp Derp 5-6 forma boltor prime build which does some ridiculous damage per bullet which shoots lava and rainbows. Therefore I'm not sure if I'd want to keep Formas in at all; due to the proposed system not requiring the niche that Formas fill. I think I'll try to go over the Formas and how they would apply to different Aspects of Zamboni's idea.

 

Weapons: The weapons are simpler in the regard that Forma can individually affect each Attachment in Zamboni's proposed system. For example, You have a magazine that carries Shock ammo, but you want to have the combo of armour piercing as well as Toxic for the Corrosive effect. Simply add a forma to add additional 'slots' to your build. Take note that this would Not make the weapon do additional damage, but rather add some effect to make it more viable against a certain faction. However this would fall into the trap of Rainbow/damage builds. This can be solved by having a cap on each attachment as to how many forma one can put onto it. Because lets be honest, Having an 6 forma attachment may as well just have shoved a block of forma into the slot and called it a day.

 

Obviously concerning the niche that some weapons that don't have attachments as stated in Zamboni's Weapon spotlight. This would be a problem, I'm not sure how one would counteract this, but my idea was that the forma could effect those weapons differently. I haven't sorted all my thoughts yet so that might come in a later post.

 

Warframe: This is probably the hardest since there is no way to 'split' changes as the weapons do, because there are already so many changes e.g. you want shields or health you can get those separately from the powers tree and same for the utility and systems. What I had planned was similar to the Current Aura system. Aura's would pretty much be a lost cause in this scenario due to no longer requiring those extra mod points for the sweet min/max builds. What I suggest instead is a Forma can be used for radiating one of your effects onto your teammates, at a lesser effect. This would be able to be changed at will as it already is able to in the current game (swapping polarity spaces) However, again there would be a cap onto the warframe as to how many forma can be added onto it. I think also powers would be available to Forma as well to provide a variety of effects.

 

For example, A Loki can use his power tree to provide invisibility to his entire team, but he can use forma to also grant them the damage buff of melee damage. A Rhino can grant Iron Skin to his squadmates as well, albeit at a lower effectiveness for both occasions. Frost would be able to grant a mini snow globe to his allies and so on. The effects obviously need a little work but I hope the message gets across.

 

Catalysts: The catalysts are pretty simple; increase the skill point capacity for Warframes and perhaps add one additional attachment to your weapon. 

 

I hope you guys critique this idea! I am very much for this idea even if it means something drastic might happen to everything else.

 

 

 

So basically you want a huge passive attribute-points allocation web for the frames. 

 

And for weapons, a complex socket/mod system that allows your weapons to have modified active effects. 

 

Just go play Path of Exile. That is the game you want. 

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I Hope DE Reads this there are some nice ideas here that would make the game much better, than its current Grind mill ; because right now all the warframe builds people use are just plain old cookie cutter builds.and the Primes thing is annoying with formas primes are just reskins. 

Edited by Panda1376
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I Hope DE Reads this there are some nice ideas here that would make the game much better, than its current Grind mill ; because right now all the warframe builds people use are just plain old cookie cutter builds.and the Primes thing is annoying with formas primes are just reskins. 

 

Nothing suggested so far would change that. Prime weapons often have different stats, only certain prime frames are reskins.

Edited by SquirmyBurrito
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Sorry, this "but it is not that bad" excuse does not convince me in the slightest to give this game a second chance. Why would I bother with a "not that bad" game when I can try out good ones?

 

Glad to hear it works for you, though.

Seriously? It's your opinion that the game is "not that bad" but to me the game is GREAT. In your words you act as if what you think is truth for everything. Don't put the developers who made this game down because you don't like something that they won't change (or haven't changed yet). There are people like me, who play this as their favorite game, and i don't see that changing for a LONG time. 

 

Plus you logged in a couple days after you posted this, LOL!!! I'm sure you'll do it again too. Peace.

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PLEASE i hope DE reads this honestly. this is such a wonderful and innovative idea! this will definitely give players to have incentive to not only just play but utilize their playstyles to perpetuate replayability!

 

It got read..er, paraphrased and Steve raged.

 

That's why i'm more or less weary about feedback these days. My best case scenario is having a designer mean-mug the camera and go on a anger fueled tangent.

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It got read..er, paraphrased and Steve raged.

 

That's why i'm more or less weary about feedback these days. My best case scenario is having a designer mean-mug the camera and go on a anger fueled tangent.

Yet virtual bucketloads of feedback have in fact made it into the game. One adverse reaction on stream doesn't warrant ringing the alarm bells...

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Yet virtual bucketloads of feedback have in fact made it into the game. One adverse reaction on stream doesn't warrant ringing the alarm bells...

 

Like what? Other than blatantly obvious things the team already thought of..I suggested things like melee 2.0, moving the matchmaking dropdown to the front, resources on the face of the planets..I'm sure a lot of us have, and that's why it got put in. Cause it's obvious.

 

When I see something radical like the suggestion to add boosters to the login rewards, I'll take notice.

Edited by DirkDeadeye
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I Hope DE Reads this there are some nice ideas here that would make the game much better, than its current Grind mill ; because right now all the warframe builds people use are just plain old cookie cutter builds.and the Primes thing is annoying with formas primes are just reskins. 

 

Though they have stated they do read threads like this constantly, they will take this thread with more than a grain of salt because the OP and people like Hans up there lacing their ideas with insults and being pretty closeminded towards everyone with a difference of opinion.

 

The best way to get into a dev's mind is to not sit there and insult their intelligence, but to offer suggestions while keeping an open mind toward others' too. Telling a dev their game is S#&$, or fighting other players blindly because they like the current systems isn't going to give any sort of brownie points.

 

The devs are obviously open to suggestions. Hell, Rebecca featured that Oberon rework last livestream. If they didn't care about our suggestions, then that sure as hell wouldn't have been up there. The OP of that suggestion didn't use thinly veiled insults. This one did. And thus Steve put his foot down, most of the playerbase that saw that agreed with him, this thread ever since it started has been one argument after another, and now all of the good and interesting suggestions have just become bloated, fetid pools of...well, bullS#&$. And that's sad.

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Like what? Other than blatantly obvious things the team already thought of..I suggested things like melee 2.0, moving the matchmaking dropdown to the front, resources on the face of the planets..I'm sure a lot of us have, and that's why it got put in. Cause it's obvious.

 

When I see something radical like the suggestion to add boosters to the login rewards, I'll take notice.

Frankly, awarding players a booster simply for logging in, is ludicrous. The real error isn't that login rewards are underwhelming, but that they exist at all, it leaves players thinking they should have a shot at premuim items, just for showing up. It's obnoxious.

If any feedback from players that lands into the game is immediately going to be written off as "things the team already thought of" than virtually any suggestion ever made by the community that ends up in game, can just be disregarded with that line of thinking.

Tons of weapon/frame changes resulted from player feedback. Dojo rooms and layout, the player ship itself contains feedback from a LOT of players, as you mentioned previously the revamped party/matchmaking system. Auras behaving the way they do know is the result of player feedback. Not every change considered needs to be system altering. Kubrow scramblers were removed and are being reworked because players didn't like the system. Legacy palettes were just brought back yesterday as a result of players being unhappy with a change.

These might not be changes that YOU have wanted, or that YOU feel are important to the health of the game, but the thread count on those topics alone, would communicate that the community as a whole DID want these changes.

There is no sense behind trying to determine if the result is pure player feedback, or "things the team already thought of", you'll find yourself too deep down the rabbit hole to return, if that is the mentality you maintain.

This thread was reviewed by the devs extensively, even before Steve's negative reaction. It's not as knee-jerk as everyone claims it has been. They didn't like THIS idea. It doesn't mean that every idea is off of the table. Yet anyone who points this out is disregarded as white-knighting DE, or claiming they are infallible. 

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I still believe this is a great game nonetheless. I am sure we will be happier in the future, the developers do focus more on new content, but old content is always being slowly reviewed. Do the changes need to be this drastic or would just modifying the systems work? to rework favor for "Band-Aid" mods and highly decrease viability/necessity of mods like split chamber, serration etc. 

 

whatever the developers decide, creating such a skill system does not have to scrap mod cards. 

 

Serration, vitality, such mods could be levelling/choice/progession bonuses. Elemental mods do not have to give HUGE damage boosts, rather players could choose effects or enemy weaknesses, and "band-aid" mods could be given some love.

 

I have faith the developers will visit such problems later on, when they get around to it. 

 

Is this thread really to recreate warframe? or to visit and update THIS SYSTEM in particular in the next few updates instead of much later?

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So basically you want a huge passive attribute-points allocation web for the frames. 

 

And for weapons, a complex socket/mod system that allows your weapons to have modified active effects. 

 

Just go play Path of Exile. That is the game you want. 

Well I guess, Path of Exile does have a good skill passive tree, but in essence thats the whole topic of the thread; its very PoE-like. But this changes per warframe, not having the same massive expansive tree for every character. Because in that a witch can become as tanky as a paladin; despite the obvious difficulties that would come with that build path; in the examples i put down, you can't have exactly a loki whos as tanky as a rhino or a frost for example. This creates some semblance of diversity which doesn't make it an all frames are one frames condition; similar for weapons. 

 

Besides; I put that down for the discussions of Forma and Catalysts, why are you railing me about PoE? Confusing

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