A Complete Rework Of The Foundation Of Warframe.

[theGreatZamboni]

Something was nagging me about the complexity of the OP suggestion, and Notionphil just nailed why.  It's very interesting and sounds like a fun system, but it's too big a step for anyone to take.  I've often come across as system or workflow or process that was outdated or inefficient and needed to improve, and I have to admit that I'm much more successful when the changes I implement have a clear direction and are small in scope.  The only time I 'replace the barn' so to speak, is when the barn already burned to the ground.

 

I also want to toss this opinion out there, it's my personal one.  The primary goal of Warframe is to be a space ninja and do fun space ninja stuff co-operatively with others.  

 

Loadout complexity supports that co-op experience, but it doesn't define it by any means.  Lore, believe it or not, also supports that co-op experience.  Therefore, imho, the primary focus of development is/should be to emphasize and expand on that co-op experience.  

 

I do think that mods being the hardest to attain object places excessive attention on going out and getting those mods, but whether or not the mod system is utterly overhauled, that system is just in service to supporting the gameplay.  It's the co-op experience that needs further complexity to increase the longevity of the game experience.

 

To think his suggestion has not crossed my mind is incorrect. The reason his suggestion was not expanded upon by me is simply because it retains mods. Mods will still be in the RNG, sharing space with materials and other drops. If you move the customization of your modifiers to a craft able and more attainable system, you once again put the focus on how you play rather than what mods you do or do not have. Most of the counter points being made are addressed, though not in big red text. I made sure to be clear in the reasoning behind why I would go to such lengths to showcase this point. His main point is "Why just not make mod slots". Ok, then you still have to farm excessively. Some farming will be inherent, but to make it the focus is ludicrous. His suggestion of awarding mods based on Mastery Rank, is in my idea. Its called the Precepts. Except you never have to forgo using one of your powers for something like Redirection. Which cycles back to "make mod slots". But again, we are trying to remove excess from the RNG and refocus on the gameplay.

 

As for this being "too big a step to take". I have already explained why something akin to this is necessary in other posts, in this thread. If not exactly my suggestion, something needs to be done. What Notion suggests is only a band aid on a bleeding heart. My suggestion is invasive surgery, that fixes the problem.

Edited November 26, 2013 by theGreatZamboni

[Phatose]

The quests would behave like the alerts we already have, except likely increased rewards considering their once-per-day status.

And we wouldn't necessarily need any payoff for the system goals. As an example, there's achievements in other Steam games, and internally in games like Rift. They don't gain you anything usually, except a "Hey, I did this." There's people that would pass those by, but others would complete every single one they could. The point is, it would give people more to do than just rush bosses and grind Survival/Defense missions. It would also make the early game for new players more interesting.

 

If they were the same rewards, why would you keep playing after you already maxxed your frames and weapons?  I'm not opposed to the idea in and of itself, but it doesn't seem like it would much address the problem here. 

 

We have achievements now.  I have to say they're not a motivator for me.  I suspect I'm not alone in that, but that's simply a guess.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, look, perhaps my tone has been too aggressive here.  My concern is this:  Mod leveling is the only real long term goal we have.  It may be stupid and grindy, but it really is all we have.  The alternative long term goals - things like multiply formaing a weapon or frame - would also be chopped off at the neck by the new system. 

 

I need a long term goal.  It's all well and good to say that core gameplay alone can provide that.  The thing is, looking down my Steam installed game list tells me it doesn't.   Deus Ex: Human Revolution - great gameplay.  40 hours, and haven't had any desire to touch it since.  Any of the Bioshocks, Mass Effect singleplayer.  All the same story.  A good experience for a while, maybe 100 hours if I'm lucky, but then it's done.  Warframe's provided me with over 600 hours.  The mod system, stupid and grindy as it might be, has given me a reason to keep playing for a long time.

 

This change looks to me like that kind of thing that would move Warframe from the 600 hour group to the 40 hour group.  I'd rather not have that.  If we're gonna rework it, fine, but we still need something to strive for, a long term way to grow.

[NeroUmbra]

I've just read thru the entire post and there is something I must have missed.

 

You say that mastery rank will become meaningful, and anyone with a given mastery rank should be able to accomplish a given mission.

 

You also talked about ranking up warframes and improving their specific abilities thru their individual skill tree.

 

Now, how are the two tied together?  Warframe levels are, currently, the best single indicator of what missions you should be able to accomplish (given appropriate weapons, underpowered weapons WILL affect your ability to kill fast enough to survive).  Yet you tie accessing additional planets to mastery rank?  Mastery rank has, and will under your system unless I missed something major, nothing to do with an individual's ability to survive.  I'm rank 3 and have a rank 30 Mag.  I equip my unranked Loki and I'd be a fool to go someplace I can easily solo in my Mag, regardless of what weapons I have equipped.

 

I guess my biggest point of confusion is how you tie unlocking planets to mastery when mastery has NOTHING to do with survive-ability, and warframes/weapons levels do.  Unless you are going to automatically give the same level of proficiency in every frame based on mastery rank?  But in your post you talk of individually leveling frames so that can't be it.

 

I like your premise and agree the Mod card system is flawed, I also like your ideas and the thought you put into your presentation but if you are going to lock me into Mercury until I reach mastery rank 2, grinding the same what, seven missions over and over again to gain enough mastery, well, I believe you need to reconsider your core thoughts.

 

(edited for a typo or two)

Edited November 26, 2013 by NeroUmbra

[notionphil]

Something was nagging me about the complexity of the OP suggestion, and Notionphil just nailed why.  It's very interesting and sounds like a fun system, but it's too big a step for anyone to take.  I've often come across as system or workflow or process that was outdated or inefficient and needed to improve, and I have to admit that I'm much more successful when the changes I implement have a clear direction and are small in scope.  The only time I 'replace the barn' so to speak, is when the barn already burned to the ground.

 

I also want to toss this opinion out there, it's my personal one.  The primary goal of Warframe is to be a space ninja and do fun space ninja stuff co-operatively with others.  

 

Loadout complexity supports that co-op experience, but it doesn't define it by any means.  Lore, believe it or not, also supports that co-op experience.  Therefore, imho, the primary focus of development is/should be to emphasize and expand on that co-op experience.  

 

I do think that mods being the hardest to attain object places excessive attention on going out and getting those mods, but whether or not the mod system is utterly overhauled, that system is just in service to supporting the gameplay.  It's the co-op experience that needs further complexity to increase the longevity of the game experience.

 

I definitely agree with the OP's intent and am awed by their presentation. The mockups I'm making for paying clients right now aren't as good as the ones in this thread.

 

However, in the words of my work mentor "Phil, if the solution is that complicated, then you don't understand the problem".

 

The OP probably works with technology/media (given the quality and focus demonstrated in the presentation), and thus probably understands that you iterate towards success. You don't destroy your product because it's not exactly what you wanted. The smallest change, which produces the most significant results, is the best change.

 

It would be wonderful if the OP could clearly identify the X things he is trying to improve, and then think about the smallest possible change to achieve each result. Having said that, this is outside of the scope of this thread, and as such I will make my leave now.

 

For the record ( :P ) I give the OP kudos on a great thread, wonderful presentation and exciting ideas. +1

[TheClingClang]

Something was nagging me about the complexity of the OP suggestion, and Notionphil just nailed why.  It's very interesting and sounds like a fun system, but it's too big a step for anyone to take.  I've often come across as system or workflow or process that was outdated or inefficient and needed to improve, and I have to admit that I'm much more successful when the changes I implement have a clear direction and are small in scope.  The only time I 'replace the barn' so to speak, is when the barn already burned to the ground.

 

I also want to toss this opinion out there, it's my personal one.  The primary goal of Warframe is to be a space ninja and do fun space ninja stuff co-operatively with others.  

 

Loadout complexity supports that co-op experience, but it doesn't define it by any means.  Lore, believe it or not, also supports that co-op experience.  Therefore, imho, the primary focus of development is/should be to emphasize and expand on that co-op experience.  

 

I do think that mods being the hardest to attain object places excessive attention on going out and getting those mods, but whether or not the mod system is utterly overhauled, that system is just in service to supporting the gameplay.  It's the co-op experience that needs further complexity to increase the longevity of the game experience.

 

The mod system ultimately undermines the co-op experience though:

- Mods are the end-goal for the individual player

- Desired mods have a very low droprate/rare reward chance

- Most efficient way of obtaining the mods is rushing (why waste time fighting infinite enemies?)

- Bring most powerful weapons to facilitate rushing through level, oneshotting everything

- Co-op becomes a race to the end of the level, where the guy in back either never sees an enemy or is swamped by them alone

- Navigate through the same repeated tiles almost out of muscle memory

- Players in front spend most of their time waiting for the roadblocks keeping them from continuing on to the end to clear (co-op doors, elevators, bosses, etc)

- In the end no one has fun

 

As is warframe is only fun when playing survival, defense, or solo void runs.

[theGreatZamboni]

I definitely agree with the OP's intent and am awed by their presentation. The mockups I'm making for paying clients right now aren't as good as the ones in this thread.

 

However, in the words of my work mentor "Phil, if the solution is that complicated, then you don't understand the problem".

 

The OP probably works with technology/media (given the quality and focus demonstrated in the presentation), and thus probably understands that you iterate towards success. You don't destroy your product because it's not exactly what you wanted. The smallest change, which produces the most significant results, is the best change.

 

It would be wonderful if the OP could clearly identify the X things he is trying to improve, and then think about the smallest possible change to achieve each result. Having said that, this is outside of the scope of this thread, and as such I will make my leave now.

 

For the record ( :P ) I give the OP kudos on a great thread, wonderful presentation and exciting ideas. +1

 

This thread is more of a proof of concept. I am rewriting large portions and will be making separate threads expounding upon ideas here. But I did make sure that what I am doing and why comes across. Something is clearly being lost in translation.

[notionphil]

This thread is more of a proof of concept. I am rewriting large portions and will be making separate threads expounding upon ideas here. But I did make sure that what I am doing and why comes across. Something is clearly being lost in translation.

 

It's a very successful proof of concept. IMHO go over everything again and distill it down to its most simple elements, and keep the thread here...the readers and followers are already here.

[Darkreaper006]

holy crap!

screw giving "a" cookie, he needs truck loads for this

 

I agree with you

 

 

DE, please for the love of Lotus L. Jackson, read this thread, learn from the poster, make your game better!

 

 

Ps. 

 

 

yes, yes I did.

[Kyte]

I want to call into question how you expect players without platinum to rank up their mastery to get all the shiny bits you get as you rank up.

[Feauce]

If they were the same rewards, why would you keep playing after you already maxxed your frames and weapons? I'm not opposed to the idea in and of itself, but it doesn't seem like it would much address the problem here.

We have achievements now. I have to say they're not a motivator for me. I suspect I'm not alone in that, but that's simply a guess.

No, you're not alone. But neither are the people who like having achievements. For some, it encourages them to play in different ways, to try different frames, weapons, etc.

Anyway, look, perhaps my tone has been too aggressive here. My concern is this: Mod leveling is the only real long term goal we have.

This is extremely presumptuous. Just because it's the only long-term goal you have doesn't mean other players share it. In fact, quite the opposite; the same thing that drives you gets so repetitive and frustrating that it drives them away. What you find compelling, they find repulsive.

It may be stupid and grindy

No, it is stupid and grindy. There's no question about that.

The alternative long term goals - things like multiply formaing a weapon or frame - would also be chopped off at the neck by the new system.

How so? Forma wouldn't necessarily go away. It could even have a new use given a system like this. Same thing with potatoes.

I need a long term goal. It's all well and good to say that core gameplay alone can provide that. The thing is, looking down my Steam installed game list tells me it doesn't. The mod system, stupid and grindy as it might be, has given me a reason to keep playing for a long time.

So, grinding for the best equipment, the best frames, etc, etc, etc... That's your long-term goal. That's your endgame. Not all of us share that goal. Even if we did, it's unsustainable. Designing the game around that one goal leads to power spikes; a ridiculously huge list of frames, weapons, and mods, not by choice or for variety, but out of necessity. An ever-climbing artificial difficulty trying to keep up with the players clamoring for a fix for a game that's "too easy."

This change looks to me like that kind of thing that would move Warframe from the 600 hour group to the 40 hour group. I'd rather not have that. If we're gonna rework it, fine, but we still need something to strive for, a long term way to grow.

I don't honestly know what to say to this. You'd rather see the current problems be exacerbated even further than to see any kind of change that would give the game real staying power with its players?

[Feauce]

I want to call into question how you expect players without platinum to rank up their mastery to get all the shiny bits you get as you rank up.

I want to call into question your understanding of how platinum works.

[Phatose]

I don't honestly know what to say to this. You'd rather see the current problems be exacerbated even further than to see any kind of change that would give the game real staying power with its players?

 

OK, seriously, how is this giving it any real staying power at all?  Where is the long term staying power in this coming from?

[NeroUmbra]

I don't honestly know what to say to this. You'd rather see the current problems be exacerbated even further than to see any kind of change that would give the game real staying power with its players?

 

Like the poster you are replying to, I'm not certain how your system adds sustainability.  

 

If all you need to do is level weapons/warframes and they become capable of being the 'best' they can be what do you do once the last weapon/waframe is leveled?

[Feauce]

From actual content updates. From new planets, maybe even new factions. We could see a lot more of that, too, because DE wouldn't be so focused out of necessity on making tons of new mods and dozens of new weapons just to keep people sated.

Time for an example... I have yet to do a single Vault run. Not because I can't, but because I don't want to. There's maybe one or two mods in the Vaults that I would want, and even then it would be rare that I'd even use them. The mods I do want are either super-ultra-rare drops from specific enemies or alert-only drops.

Since you keep demanding of us, I'll demand the same from you. Tell me, what do I have to play for? Where is MY staying power coming from? Because if your answer is that you don't care, then guess what? I don't give a damn about yours either.

[Rajko]

The mod system ultimately undermines the co-op experience though:

- Mods are the end-goal for the individual player

- Desired mods have a very low droprate/rare reward chance

- Most efficient way of obtaining the mods is rushing (why waste time fighting infinite enemies?)

- Bring most powerful weapons to facilitate rushing through level, oneshotting everything

- Co-op becomes a race to the end of the level, where the guy in back either never sees an enemy or is swamped by them alone

- Navigate through the same repeated tiles almost out of muscle memory

- Players in front spend most of their time waiting for the roadblocks keeping them from continuing on to the end to clear (co-op doors, elevators, bosses, etc)

- In the end no one has fun

 

As is warframe is only fun when playing survival, defense, or solo void runs.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to be unclear. 

 

I agree that the mod system is not infinitely sustainable or scalable.  I also agree that progression tied to mod attainment and leveling focus the experience on grind.  Further, I like the suggestions on skill tree and the removal of the min/max madness.

 

My opinion is just that any proposed changes to supporting elements, like how your character levels up or how skills are attained, are secondary to overall gameplay experience, and that I'm impressed with OP's ideas.  I'm not convinced that shifting from the mod system to a level up system really removes the grind, though.  I think it just obfuscates it by playwalling advanced content behind a gameplay requirement (more than the node locked/unlocked system currently does).

 

I'm still re-reading and digesting OPs thoughts though, and OP is also refining in the main post, so I'll update as I grasp it better.  

 

Edited November 26, 2013 by Rajko

[Phatose]

From actual content updates. From new planets, maybe even new factions. We could see a lot more of that, too, because DE wouldn't be so focused out of necessity on making tons of new mods and dozens of new weapons just to keep people sated.

Time for an example... I have yet to do a single Vault run. Not because I can't, but because I don't want to. There's maybe one or two mods in the Vaults that I would want, and even then it would be rare that I'd even use them. The mods I do want are either super-ultra-rare drops from specific enemies or alert-only drops.

Since you keep demanding of us, I'll demand the same from you. Tell me, what do I have to play for? Where is MY staying power coming from? Because if your answer is that you don't care, then guess what? I don't give a damn about yours either.

 

 

New planets take a lot of time though.  New mods generally don't.  Which is kind of the root point - creating those vault mods takes nowhere near as much time or effort as creating an entire tileset, or new AI.

 

And clearly, your staying power is coming from the mod system, based on your previous sentence of "The mods I do want are either super-ultra-rare drops from specific enemies or alert-only drops."  So, there you go.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Phatose

[alocrius]

I've read the op more thoroughly now and have a few comments.  The codex system kind of ensures the mod drop system will continue.  A streamlined mod system is more likely than a completely re-worked one.  Maybe you could make suggestions to a revised mod system that incorporates drops as well. That being said many of the suggestions you make are applicable despite that.  

 

I think you really need to clarify how progression works in the early part of your description about ranking up abilities.   You reference the old mod upgrade screen above your skill tree picture but it's not clear if you are trying to re-incorporate the old tree in some way or  are just referencing it without relation to your new skill tree.  A little clarification would be nice there.  I personally never understood the original system before it was changed as it was a disorganized, counter-intuitive mess. I wouldn't want people to think you are advocating for it if you're not.

 

I want to understand the details of point progression in your skill tree as it relates to a specific ability, system or utility.  How exactly does ability customization work?  How do I make fireball less powerful and overheat more powerful?  Do the mods still have the same levels like they do now?  It's not clear yet what exactly I'm getting when I spend the points in your skill tree.  I suggest you fill in the blank squares with what actually goes in them in your diagram and also put info text with connector lines to the salient sections.  I have a very vague sense of how progression works so far.  

 

What I do understand is that dividing mods into classes and assigning them equal points of investment streamlines builds and does encourage diversity to some degree. Certain mods that could be considered as default mods could sensibly be in their own class.  But you are going to have to be more specific about how your system gives us more freedom/customization then we have now. You're exchanging points for fusion cores/mods but how is your system specifically more flexible?

 

Is access to the mods now in a universal pool and we pick and choose without restriction?..  or is there any restriction to mods in your system?

 

**in your post you write boots in a couple places where you mean boost 

Edited November 26, 2013 by alocrius

[WhiteCopain]

New planets take a lot of time though.  New mods generally don't.  Which is kind of the root point - creating those vault mods takes nowhere near as much time or effort as creating an entire tileset, or new AI.

 

And clearly, your staying power is coming from the mod system, based on your previous sentence of "The mods I do want are either super-ultra-rare drops from specific enemies or alert-only drops."  So, there you go.

New AI and tileset creators are different teams then mod creators.

 

Argument is invalid there.

[Feauce]

New planets take a lot of time though. New mods generally don't. Which is kind of the root point - creating those vault mods takes nowhere near as much time or effort as creating an entire tileset, or new AI.

So, they would take more time in between major updates. How is that not a good thing? It makes the game a more consistent experience, and gives the devs more time to work on fixing persistent bugs.

And clearly, your staying power is coming from the mod system, based on your previous sentence of "The mods I do want are either super-ultra-rare drops from specific enemies or alert-only drops." So, there you go.

You're still being extremely presumptuous. You're assuming that my end-goal is the same as yours, when it isn't. One of the mods I'm talking about is Rage. Well, I've already accepted the extremely likely probability that I'll never get it, no matter how much I grind, no matter how much I run different missions trying for it, no matter how many mods I try and transmute. So that's, in fact, a contributing factor to push me away from Warframe.

I'll ask again, what is my staying power? What is my end-goal to strive for?

Edited November 26, 2013 by Feauce

[Duralumin]

If all you need to do is level weapons/warframes and they become capable of being the 'best' they can be what do you do once the last weapon/waframe is leveled?

You stop playing until DE rework PvP so that it isn't horrendously broken.

Or you go play something else.

Or you mess about with unorthodox builds.

Or you help people.

Whatever floats your boat, really. You're at the top of the world at that point.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Duralumin

[Phatose]

So, they would take more time in between major updates. How is that not a good thing? It makes the game a more consistent experience, and gives the devs more time to work on fixing persistent bugs.

 

Because we're reliant entirely on those content updates to provide goals. 

 

You're still being extremely presumptuous. You're assuming that my end-goal is the same as yours, when it isn't. One of the mods I'm talking about is Rage. Well, I've already accepted the extremely likely probability that I'll never get it, no matter how much I grind, no matter how much I run different missions trying for it, no matter how many mods I try and transmute. So that's, in fact, a contributing factor to push me away from Warframe.

I'll ask again, what is my staying power? What is my end-goal to strive for?

 

OK, I don't know.  What *is* your end goal?  I've told you mine. 

[WhiteCopain]

Because we're reliant entirely on those content updates to provide goals. 

 

 

OK, I don't know.  What *is* your end goal?  I've told you mine. 

We kind of are right now, which is why a rework would be great.

 

 

My end game goal is to have a challenge--- but that doesn't exist. Damage 2.0 helped just hitting 4 to murder everything, but it still exist a lot.

[Feauce]

OK, I don't know. What *is* your end goal? I've told you mine.

You demanded that we give you a new end-goal given a system change like the one the OP puts forth. I'm doing the same in reverse. I'm telling you that I don't share your end-goal of "OMG OMG OMG!! MODS MODS MODS!! GRIND GRIND GRIND!!" in the current system, so what does the current system offer to someone like me that we wouldn't want to see it changed?

[Phatose]

You demanded that we give you a new end-goal given a system change like the one the OP puts forth. I'm doing the same in reverse. I'm telling you that I don't share your end-goal of "OMG OMG OMG!! MODS MODS MODS!! GRIND GRIND GRIND!!" in the current system, so what does the current system offer to someone like me that we wouldn't want to see it changed?

 

Nothing.  Which is precisely what the new system will offer you too.

[Kyte]

I want to call into question your understanding of how platinum works.

I want to call into question how do you expect players to rank up with only the default weapon slots + the few you can get from starting plat.

I did for a while. It was hell. And barely reached rank 4 or so.

 

From actual content updates. From new planets, maybe even new factions. We could see a lot more of that, too, because DE wouldn't be so focused out of necessity on making tons of new mods and dozens of new weapons just to keep people sated.

This is fundamentally stupid. The costs are different by orders of magnitude.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Kyte