Arcane duplicate is pointless

[xXHappyCrasherXX]

There's absolutely no reason to use it outside of a tailored heavy attack build that would only yellow crit, but even then why do that when instead you could just run a tier 6 red crit heavy attack build, 

A yellow crit hitting twice is like a minutely better orange crit as it has more procs, but honestly it's still just dumb

Not to mention arcane exposure is ludicrously powerful for smacking a stupid amount of damage onto a weapon as it's basically primed fever strike and a 90 electric put together, 

Id say it's good for new players who don't have all the bells and whistles as a bandaid but the darn thing is so rare and expensive that it's not even good for that

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

I'm gonna put it on my GHOULSAW. So it hits twice. Like it's hitting faster. Like a chainsaw. 

 

Spoiler

GHOULSAW has Headshot and Accuracy stats, like Gunblades and Glaives and Thrown Zaws and other melees with ranged attacks. Magnetic Flying GHOULSAW Blades like what the Plains Ghouls have, When, DE?

 

Incarnon GHOULSAW with Infinite Sawriding Duration in Incarnon Form, Magnetic Flying Sawblades, and Followthrough Stat that scales with Combo Multiplier When, DE?

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by (XBOX)CaligulaTwily

[xXHappyCrasherXX]

Geuss it has one use cuz there's no way the ghoul saw  will ever see anything beyond a yellow crit

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

1 minute ago, xXHappyCrasherXX said:

Geuss it has one use cuz there's no way the ghoul saw  will ever see anything beyond a yellow crit

If my math and memory checks out right, I should aCtUaLlY 🤓 be hitting 105% crit chance at X12 melee multiplier. Barely scraping the orange crits

[Agall]

16 minutes ago, xXHappyCrasherXX said:

There's absolutely no reason to use it outside of a tailored heavy attack build that would only yellow crit, but even then why do that when instead you could just run a tier 6 red crit heavy attack build, 

A yellow crit hitting twice is like a minutely better orange crit as it has more procs, but honestly it's still just dumb

Not to mention arcane exposure is ludicrously powerful for smacking a stupid amount of damage onto a weapon as it's basically primed fever strike and a 90 electric put together, 

Id say it's good for new players who don't have all the bells and whistles as a bandaid but the darn thing is so rare and expensive that it's not even good for that

Would be very useful on Exalted Blade if it had an arcane slot or if your melee weapon's arcane carried over to it (which none of them do, including crescendo). Otherwise, and thankfully, its not as useful as several other melee arcanes. Influence, exposure, even retaliation should scale better than this with how limiting the yellow crit prerequisite is.

I immediately sold the duplicate I got from netracell this week, so its the only one I didn't extensively test, but I imagine it might be useful on some glaive heavy attack builds since those will usually fall into yellow crit territory. Ones where influence wouldn't be better, aka, you can't get high status+electric damage on it.

 

5 minutes ago, xXHappyCrasherXX said:

Geuss it has one use cuz there's no way the ghoul saw  will ever see anything beyond a yellow crit

Wrathful advance disagrees 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Agall

[(PSN)Unstar]

57 minutes ago, xXHappyCrasherXX said:

There's absolutely no reason to use it outside of a

I think part of your issue is that you seem to be focusing solely on direct damage, rather than thinking about the other strengths that getting an additional attack has.  Because on top of the additional damage, you're also going to be getting more combo and more of any proc that always or sometimes happens on attack/hit.

In addition, if you use a weapon with low follow-through and are already over-killing enemies (probably fairly common for forum-users), then a second attack can be more effective against a group of enemies than a single attack that does more than double the damage; with a single attack, most of that damage on additional targets will be whittled down by your follow-through, but if the first of your two attacks kills even one enemy, then your second attack will do a much greater amount of damage to the surviving targets.

And that's just what I've thought of off the top of my head.  There are so many complicated details and nuances to Warframe's combat and systems that I have absolutely no doubt that there will be some very interesting and effective builds that players put together with Duplicate.

Edited December 28, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar

[DarkSkysz]

1 hour ago, xXHappyCrasherXX said:

no reason to use it

Then don't use it and move on.

[taiiat]

it does not pair with a playstyle which uses Blood Rush.

lots of other Arcanes in the game don't fit your own playstyle, so this also falls onto that side of the fence that does not support your playstyle, and so use a different Arcane instead.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

Having an arcane reward weakness instead of strength is kinda bad design in a game based on gaining Power.

Doesn't fit with progression.

 

maybe if it scaled? Something like

yellow crits have a 50% chance to hit twice

orange crits have a 75% chance to hit twice

red crits and beyond have a 100% chance to hit twice

 

[ominumi]

The arcane would be great for a melee weapon with high damage, high crit damage, low crit chance. Can anyone think of any melee that fits this criteria?

[BroDutt]

31 minutes ago, ominumi said:

The arcane would be great for a melee weapon with high damage, high crit damage, low crit chance. Can anyone think of any melee that fits this criteria?

A lot of Heavy weapon. This Arcane definitely not fitted with fast, high crit chance (blood rush or not) weapon. But for slow, high heavy damage combine with Tennokai, it's very useful.

2 hours ago, xXHappyCrasherXX said:

There's absolutely no reason to use it outside of a tailored heavy attack build that would only yellow crit, but even then why do that when instead you could just run a tier 6 red crit heavy attack build, 

Then don't use it. Just because you think your playstyle is the optimal way doesn't mean everyone should go with your playstyle

[SDGDen]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I think part of your issue is that you seem to be focusing solely on direct damage, rather than thinking about the other strengths that getting an additional attack has.  Because on top of the additional damage, you're also going to be getting more combo and more of any proc that always or sometimes happens on attack/hit.

here's a big thing:

a decent chunk of bosses with damage attenuation have a per-hit cap. per hit. i discovered this recently during plague star.

a "per hit" damage cap means normal damage increases like orange critting or buffing with something like roar don't actually really do anything.

but adding another hit, for example via xata's whisper or toxic lash, means you can deal more damage, bypassing that attenuation.

currently the build that does this best is a build with close to 100% crit chance, melee duplicate, xata's whisper subsumed onto saryn with high str for high damage bonus toxic lash. netting you 4 hits per hit and as a result 4x damage against some DA-based bosses.

granted that relies on those bosses being melee-able, which the hemocyte wasnt unless you count gunblades. 

 

[trst]

It's good on weapons that can't hit those higher tiers easily and/or on ones that need far more mod investment to reach them. Plus Exposure requires ability spam which not all frames/builds are good for making Duplicate a more universal option. Or even something like a Kai build where Duplicate is really just there to get more status procs or more chances at triggering the Kai attack.

So it's definitely not pointless unless you're exclusively care about min-maxing.

[(PSN)Joylesstuna]

1 hour ago, trst said:

It's good on weapons that can't hit those higher tiers easily and/or on ones that need far more mod investment to reach them. Plus Exposure requires ability spam which not all frames/builds are good for making Duplicate a more universal option. Or even something like a Kai build where Duplicate is really just there to get more status procs or more chances at triggering the Kai attack.

So it's definitely not pointless unless you're exclusively care about min-maxing.

Slapping blood rush on a melee build is not min maxing and this game throws crit chance buffs at you everywhere. Min maxing is not the issue. The arcane is just way to niche.

[(PSN)iuvenilis]

Seems like it would suit a weapon with low-ish crit.

It's probably not going onto meta weapons, but that's fine. Not everything has to be "META". It's probably a nice attempt to help boost the damage of non-crit weapons. It seems to me that many of the power creep lately has been aimed at statuses/elements. 

Maybe once I have an abundance of melee arcane adapters, I'll start adding it to my builds (mainly for when those types of weapons show up in SP circuit).

If it doesn't suit your builds or playstyle, it's pretty easy to not use it. It's good to see more "niche" stuff, helps add a bit more variety to loadout choices. It's probably not going to make Lesion as good as Kronen Prime, but it would certainly help bridge the gap.

Edited December 29, 2023 by (PSN)iuvenilis

[Crevab]

Providing an extra hit to weapons that don't have the highest base crit chance seems like a pretty broad use case.  Hell, people could probably use Sac.Steel instead of Blood Rush on those with top crit chance and still get good use out of it

[MechNexus]

I can see it being used on status builds with weapons with alright base crit chance to double dip on applying status.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

48 minutes ago, MechNexus said:

I can see it being used on status builds with weapons with alright base crit chance to double dip on applying status.

I'm thinking the same. I haven't had the chance to use it yet but I am hyped to see how this would work on struggling crit weapons like the Mire, or weapons on the cusp of a strong hybrid setup like the twin krokurs. 

[ReddyDisco]

It's pretty good but it is also not worth the 3.3k plat for r5, if you were oneshotting enemies already this won't really change much for you. 

[Ghastly-Ghoul]

Ghoulsaw can achieve orange crits with Adarza Kavat and Arcane avenger. Red crits with Wrathful Advance.

I see this arcane to be useful for melee weapons that have low crit chance or very high status chances.

Not everyone wants to be forced to use a Glaive or the Incarnons.  Glaives have the most boring play style in the game imo and the melee incarnons are very limited in their selection. Fashion frame is the most important after all so using a weapon that actually looks good and becomes viable with melee arcanes takes a higher priority.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Ghastly-Ghoul

[trst]

20 hours ago, (PSN)Joylesstuna said:

Slapping blood rush on a melee build is not min maxing and this game throws crit chance buffs at you everywhere. Min maxing is not the issue. The arcane is just way to niche.

Never said that Blood Rush is min-maxing. Stacking it with every crit buff you can would be and the cost of doing so is the loss of other options in their places. Not every weapon is good for such a setup and would get more value for investment with Duplicate and not everyone wants to slap every crit buff on.

Sure you can call that niche but I'd call crit min-maxing niche since nothing demands using such a setup. Really it's just like most everything else we have: more build options.

[ECCHOSIERRA]

Id actually rather we have multiple viable options to choose from depending on playstyle, build, weapon, and personal preference than 1 or 2 single "correct" choices for melee arcanes that you should just be using all the time no matter what.

 

 

[(XBOX)K1jker]

Considering I'm only using sacrificial true steel because I hate the combo counter it'll be good for me. 

Sadly I'll never see a max rank one which currently costs as much as old Ember prime. 

[Traumtulpe]

The Arcane is good on weapons with ~18% base crit, maybe less if you add a Gladiator mod. Hitting twice is much better than getting orange crits, and on a status weapon hitting twice may make it competetive with a red crit weapon.