Nuke the Thermal Sunder

[Overcomplicaeta]

Hey Tenno!

Here with what might be an unpopular opinion: I hate Thermal Sunder.

To be clear, there's not really anything I actually hate about Warframe, but when I jump into Multiplayer, I'm expecting to participate in whatever mission or activity we're a part of. That's impossible with the way some players abuse Thermal Sunder. Now, mind you, only a few people I see using Thermal Sunder these days are actually Gauss players, but rather Titania with Thermal Sunder, blowing through mission after mission just spamming Thermal Sunder whilst everything disappears. The rest of the group is just left to jump around aimlessly, or try to move beyond the range of Thermal Sunder, and away from that particular team member. But, as any Tenno who has witnessed this will attest, it's a lot of work for very little reward, and often yields back-tracking to pick up things like Traces. On top of that, not only is it an obnoxious color screen when players choose bright colors for the ability, but it's also broken. If one person can kill everything in near-affinity radius, before you can even leave the starting area, it kills the fun and really just cheeses these levels. 

My suggestion, ultimately, is to Nerf the Range/Damage of Thermal Sunder for Helminth. Leave Gauss' Thermal Sunder alone, but nerf or change the ability for other Warframes to have. I wouldn't complain about how other players play, but when I don't get to play because some jerk is spamming TS for the Focus or the Funsies, it kills my desire to play with others. If I could just exclude the "RUN AND DONE" players, I'd be happy to, but we can't. So, next best thing? *Shrug* 

Let me know your opinions, or if you have any solutions outside of Nerfing! I'd love to hear any way I can to avoid the Run and Done'rs.

Cheers,

    Overcomplicaeta

[Famecans]

[irony] I disagree because I wish Limbo Cataclysm was as good as Thermal Sunder.
Cataclysm is slower, costs twice as much energy, is interrupted by nullifiers, and is more expensive to build. [/irony]

Offtopic:
Rework: Eximus Enemies have been reworked to block any damage spam mechanics and warframe abilities.
Reality: Eximus Enemies only affects weak and clumsy warframes making them even weaker and clumsier.

Edited February 24 by Famecans

[Tiltskillet]

I don't really have an opinion, but guessing is fun, and my guess is it gets nerfed again this month with Gauss Prime coming out.  Maybe more nerfed for other frames than Gauss himself, though I think its nuking potential on him won't escape completely unscathed.  Maybe they attach some of that to a synergy with another ability.

[Overcomplicaeta]

See, like, I know that other 'Frames have nuking abilities, too. My only issue is that there's nothing anyone can do, save for leaving (which, I mean, isn't worth it), so we're stuck with Map-Nukes. I did love the rework on Eximus, personally, at least in that they aren't like Chaff anymore. I don't really want to see any Nerfs, especially since I don't want Gauss Mains to get hit with the LessFunButton^TM but leaving these abilities where they are, is a bit too much.

Perhaps instead of Nuking the Range/Damage, they can instill a Cooldown on the ability for other 'Frames. That way 'Tiny McSpamsALot' can't kill the fun by killing everything, everywhere, all at once. Y'know? :3

[Numerounius]

I think this is more of the fact you are constantly running exterminate starchart Lith fissures so the yield rate you find these players that are running thermal sunder on X frame is high. I don't think people try to go with an obnoxious color scheme, either it is the default or what a random color picker specced the energy color to be on the bright side and for thermal sunder this gets highlighted more than other abilities.

Outside of those fissure missions the Thermal Sunder Helminth rate dramatically drops off like a rock even though it is still great to use in other aspects of the game, I'd say maybe a little too much but the engagement rate isn't there to justify nerfing it.

If you don't want to run into those types of players maybe find some other modes to play with. There is your solution to avoiding the run and gun people.

Now could Thermal Sunder probably use a nerf? Probably but I'd want it to be nerfed for all since I've seen the same behavior of run and guns on Gauss which would only be exasperated once his Prime comes out. Another option would be to do a pass for everything in helminth rather than nerfing a top 5 subsume ability since there are others that also need tweaks.

Since we are talking about Thermal Sunder, I think I should take the time and point out what DE has said about it in regards to nerfing an even more potent ability combo being Neutron Star which is in the same vein of Thermal Sunder.

Quote

Hotfix 32.0.9 (2022-10-05)

The auto-seeking nature made Neutron Star far better at room clearing than other Helminth radial damage abilities like Thermal Sunder. We have a history of encouraging engagement with the enemy instead of automation, so LOS changes seemed the most important factor to address, while still letting it maintain the new high damage features.

[DarkSkysz]

On 2024-01-02 at 9:56 PM, Famecans said:

I wish Limbo Cataclysm was as good as Thermal Sunder.

Once in the past, cataclysm was the best nuke in the game.

 

On 2024-01-02 at 9:34 PM, Overcomplicaeta said:

Let me know your opinions

Warframe is a HORDE loot / shotter. The fast you kill and finish the mission, the faster you get your goodies and move on.

Because once you learn that if they nerf thermal sunder, there is still Saryn, Hildryn, Hydroid, Ignis, Bramma... and so much more to nuke rooms and clear missions fast.

[rawr1254]

It already was changed in helminth, leave it alone. Its unnecessary complaints like this that killed Ember for a long time and even now shes just kinda so-so so long as you use heat inherit.

If you want to participate more you clearly need to either progress further in the game to get more mods. Also Im assuming we're talking about an exterminate mission in which the goal isnt typically to stop and smell the Midnight Dragonlilies. If you want to participate in said mission, you could bring nourish to keep the thermal sunderers energy up, you could group enemies in the area theyre flying into with airburst, you could bring a heat epitaph to help kill the eximus/heavy enemies with heat inherit. There are A LOT of ways you can participate here, you could even again, progress in the game and build the EXACT same build and do the same thing as what youre complaining about.

[Overcomplicaeta]

On 2024-01-02 at 10:57 PM, DarkSkysz said:

Warframe is a HORDE loot / shotter. The fast you kill and finish the mission, the faster you get your goodies and move on.

Because once you learn that if they nerf thermal sunder, there is still Saryn, Hildryn, Hydroid, Ignis, Bramma... and so much more to nuke rooms and clear missions fast.

Some of us actually enjoy playing the game, not cheesing it. Play how you want, but don't make your playstyle other folks' problem. As a working professional, it's easy to acknowledge that a lot of people play at different times, so pre-made groups can be an issue sometimes. That's why I'd like to see Multiplayer be Multiplayer, and not Multirace-to-the-finish-'cause-reasons. 

Also, I'd like to point out that if all you play is nukes, you're not "getting good", you're just following online tutorials so you can button mash your way to a participation award. Skill comes from challenge.

Just because you like cheesing things, doesn't mean the rest of us enjoy it. I can clear a room in a button too, but where's the fun? I've had more people leave mid-Sanctuary just because I brought Mirage in. No one likes jumping into a match to sit there for 20m doing nothing while Spammers go Ham on Cheese. Want more cheese? Have a Hot Pocket. But leave the Playing to the Gamers. =/

Also, as a side note, probably best not to look at the number of Forum posts someone has, and use that as a metric of progress. I've been farming Archon Shards and Arcanes since they released. I've also completed every quest, and have plenty of exclusive things newbies can't buy or acquire. Try not to make assumptions on others' skill or knowledge, it's not a good look for anyone. 

 

Cheers from a Gara Main,

    Overcomplicaeta

[ShogunGunshow]

I've said this in another thread, but given DE's dislike for abilities that take away other player's ability to, you know, meaningfully play the game, I'm surprised they haven't slapped an LoS requirement on Thermal Sunder already.

[Overcomplicaeta]

2 hours ago, Numerounius said:

I think this is more of the fact you are constantly running exterminate starchart Lith fissures so the yield rate you find these players that are running thermal sunder on X frame is high.

If you don't want to run into those types of players maybe find some other modes to play with. There is your solution to avoiding the run and gun people.

Ah, I meant to respond to this earlier, but was distracted by rudeness. Anyway, sadly it's not quite like that. Although you are correct, you can see these things on a curve, and the faster the mission type, the more you will see that. However, sometimes your only Axi or Neo option is an Exterminate, or a Capture, and the only option is to wait for the timer reset, or go solo and miss out on the opportunities that having 4 random relics unlocking at once can provide. That solution is great and wonderful and all, unless you're playing Survival, or Defense, or any other map. These folks are found anywhere an opportunity is, as long as that opportunity consists of low-effort high-reward. It's the same reason people use Smeeta Kavats all the time, easy Crits and Extra Loot. Take that aspect away, and suddenly you'll see a lot fewer Smeetas. The only place you might not see Thermal Sunder or room-nukes is Steel Path; and that's hit or miss on the multiplayer aspect. 

People will always find ways to break mechanics, just look at speedrunners (get it?), but that doesn't mean that this is a good thing, or a desired thing. We all play the same game, and if you want to room-nuke, just play Solo on regular Earth; I'm sure you'll feel all powerful taking down the level 1's. 

 

And if you found that suggestion to be less than helpful, might I recommend some introspection?

[Overcomplicaeta]

6 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I've said this in another thread, but given DE's dislike for abilities that take away other player's ability to, you know, meaningfully play the game, I'm surprised they haven't slapped an LoS requirement on Thermal Sunder already.

I'd take any form of Nerf for these nukes, honestly. LoS, Damage, Range, CDs, anything. I think the problem is DE having to balance between the try-hards and the players, you can't win them all, so it comes down to who the bigger audience is in the end; whether that audience is bringing in money. Hopefully players outstrip the Run & Done's, but you never really know until the numbers start moving. =/

[KitMeHarder]

4 hours ago, Overcomplicaeta said:

but when I jump into Multiplayer, I'm expecting to participate in whatever mission or activity we're a part of. That's impossible with the way some players abuse Thermal Sunder.

I'll never understand why someone with a 3 year old forum account would care about "participating" in a mission that Thermal Sunder is able to nuke. New players are one thing, but if you have a 3 year old account, the only real content you should be doing at that level are fissures. And fissures aren't fun (as killing level 30 enemies is not fun at that point), they're places to efficiently get ducats ASAP.... And then you go and by your Primed Convulsion and go have fun in the Archon hunt or something. 

IMO there are two good solutions. One partial fix and one complete fix.

• Either DE needs to buff SP fissures to have notably better returns (I.E. letting you open 3 relics at once), that way all the min/maxers go there.
• Or we need 2 different public queues for the entire game. A "fast pace public" and a "slow pace public". A honor based system where egregiously infractions are reportable for a short suspension from said queue.

[DarkSkysz]

1 hour ago, Overcomplicaeta said:

Nice toxicity, there

Thank you. 

Also, like you said some enjoy playing likes slugs, some enjoy running fast. Deal with it.

[Overcomplicaeta]

37 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

I'll never understand why someone with a 3 year old forum account would care about "participating" in a mission that Thermal Sunder is able to nuke. New players are one thing, but if you have a 3 year old account, the only real content you should be doing at that level are fissures.

Let's try to avoid making assumptions, because they are just assumptions, and nothing fact-worthy. Not every 'Frame we play is fine tuned for maximum laziness, nor should they be. Also, how I play after 3 years, or 13 years, doesn't matter here. The point, and problem, is the cheesing. If you disagree, you probably cheese. If that works for you, then that is what works for you. But like folks have suggested, you want to play the 'Big Man on Deck'? Go find a solo mission that is more your speed. Either way, you don't buy my Plat; I'll play the game the way that suits me. 

Though a little unrefined, I can agree with that. Sea of Thieves made some good headway with players with the 'Safer Seas' release. Though, I think a good third solution would be to add new, mechanic-gated missions. Run as fast as you want to the end, but if you're not done with task C, then you'll be standing there a while. Modes like Mirror Defense and Conjunction Survival add a greater effort, and intrigue, into the game. But that's just my opinion. 

 

Beyond that, I think I'm done here. I've made my point, exploded the points of others, and have more Warframe to play. I wish you all the best in this new year!

 

Love, Glass, and Sacrifice, Tenno.

     Overcomplicaeta

[KitMeHarder]

35 minutes ago, Overcomplicaeta said:

how I play after 3 years, or 13 years, doesn't matter here.

It does. You're playing a progression-based RPG style game. If you're still fixated on the balance of the tutorial levels (when you play them as a "vet"), that raises some concerns.

35 minutes ago, Overcomplicaeta said:

Let's try to avoid making assumptions, because they are just assumptions [...] If you disagree, you probably cheese.

Look, you're not making a very good point if you label people... to only then do the same thing yourself. If my assumptions are wrong, don't deflect. Tell me how they're wrong.

35 minutes ago, Overcomplicaeta said:

Go find a solo mission that is more your speed.

No, the sad thing is that's something you can do. But when you ask for Thermal Sunder to be nerfed, people who like using TS can no longer "just play solo" to avoid this situation (and people like yourself) in order to get the same experience. It'll no longer be possible.

35 minutes ago, Overcomplicaeta said:

Modes like Mirror Defense [...] add a greater effort, and intrigue, into the game.

Opinions are opinions, and I don't "buy your plat". But a mode that incentivizes 3/4 players to sit around and do very little besides press their CC ability every minute or so, while the other spins in circles on the ceiling like a trapped fly, isn't "intriguing" nor "effortful".

I can understand the appeal of modes like Kuva Flood, where killing is a second thought. But Mirror Defense (or most other static defence-types) ain't it.

Edited January 3 by KitMeHarder

[ShogunGunshow]

9 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

No, the sad thing is that's something you can do. But when you ask for Thermal Sunder to be nerfed, people who like using TS can no longer "just play solo" to avoid this situation (and people like yourself) in order to get the same experience. It'll no longer be possible.

This is an argument to never nerf or change anything, because the people that like it like the unnerfed thing like it is won't be able to have the same experience anymore.

Unfortunately, that's just kind of how online games operate. There are plenty of people that still resent the fact that Kuva Zarr can't be infinitely spammed with the exact same build as pre-ammo rebalance anymore, but in the end that needed to be addressed, because it was an unhealthy playstyle that promoted barely even paying attention to the world.

Now, I'm not a fortune teller, but I've been around long enough to see what DE likes and doesn't like and, based on how TS works right now, I feel comfortable saying that, in its current state, it's living on borrowed time. And the more and more people play little death pixie clap-clap-fly-flying through maps, not even looking at the game world, making it pretty much impossible for people not running similar builds to actually play, the more they skew those metrics, the more inevitable an eventual nerf becomes. 

Heck, I'm pretty sure the only reason DE hasn't already is that they're pretty reticent to touch Helminth abilities unless really necessary. But if people keep embracing degenerate playstyles, they'll eventually pull that trigger. 

And let's be honest: the bare minimum, respecting LOS, would make it more consistent with how other things in the game work, and wouldn't be at all unfair. 

[KitMeHarder]

22 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

This is an argument to never nerf or change anything, because the people that like it like the unnerfed thing like it is won't be able to have the same experience anymore.

I'm not the one that brought it up, I'm countering it.

24 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

based on how TS works right now, I feel comfortable saying that, in its current state, it's living on borrowed time.

Yes, sadly this is the kind of thing DE typically addresses. But it really won't solve OP's issue, as the "next best thing" is ready and waiting. All it will do is make it more of a PITA to level frames in SO.

Thus why I suggested public queue be replaced with 2 new queues. That way it benefits everyone, and it's future proof. We have more than enough players with crossplay/save.

28 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

And let's be honest: the bare minimum, respecting LOS, would make it more consistent with how other things in the game work, and wouldn't be at all unfair.

Not even close. There's no way we're playing the same game if you think LoS is that abundant for this to be a consistency thing.

And this game's engine/coding is way too suboptimal for LoS checks to be utilized for more than a handful of abilities where LoS makes sense (I.E. Blaze Artillery). LoS is extremely buggy and demoralizing in this game.

[Qriist]

I don't care about Thermal Sunder's nuking capabilities, I just wish it didn't make the entire map impossible to see.

[Merkranire]

I don’t think many tears would be shed if Thermal Sunder was nerfed, particularly not on behalf of the players who turn it into a problem

[Merkranire]

12 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

 

• Or we need 2 different public queues for the entire game. A "fast pace public" and a "slow pace public". A honor based system where egregiously infractions are reportable for a short suspension from said queue.

Oooh, yes please. I think players could be trusted to use the right queue even if they can’t be trusted to not make problems for everyone (sometimes even themselves).

I’d love to have a sort of “In it to play” versus “In it to not” system where we’re no longer stepping on each other’s toes

Edited January 3 by Merkranire

[Hexerin]

15 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

I've said this in another thread, but given DE's dislike for abilities that take away other player's ability to, you know, meaningfully play the game, I'm surprised they haven't slapped an LoS requirement on Thermal Sunder already.

It isn't being meaningfully nerfed (no, the change made to it recently didn't do a damn thing to it if you know how to play the game), because DE knows that doing so would impact the sales figures on Gauss's Prime Access. If DE ever gives Thermal Sunder an actual nerf, it'll be a significant period of time after Gauss leaves Prime Access.

[Raarsi]

17 hours ago, DarkSkysz said:

Because once you learn that if they nerf thermal sunder, there is still Saryn, Hildryn, Hydroid, Ignis, Bramma...

2021 called.  They want their argument back.

I'm still of the mindset that Thermal Sunder doesn't need to be nerfed as much as Titania does.

[Traumtulpe]

20 hours ago, Overcomplicaeta said:

Let me know your opinions

Why are you expecting fissure missions (normal, *not* Steel Path) to be some sort of challenge? For most people these are just a chore, and using Thermal Sunder Titania makes the chore go by faster.

On the Steel Path nobody is using TS, ever.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

31 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

On the Steel Path nobody is using TS, ever.

I feel like very few people are actually using TS at all even on normal starchart. 

I keep hearing about this ability on the forums or reddit.  Only to never encounter anyone using it in pub in a noticeable way. 

 

[Iedarus]

They probably will nerf the Helminth version of the ability. This is no different from the WuBramma meta except less people are using it for whatever reason, probably because Steel Path shuts it down.

Edit: Oh I know why: It's because Breach Surge exists.

Edited January 4 by Iedarus