Nuke the Thermal Sunder

[Hexerin]

3 hours ago, Raarsi said:

2021 called.  They want their argument back.

I'm still of the mindset that Thermal Sunder doesn't need to be nerfed as much as Titania does.

Please, give us your logic on why Titania needs to be nerfed. I'm sure we'll all get a good chortle about it.

[Raarsi]

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Please, give us your logic on why Titania needs to be nerfed. I'm sure we'll all get a good chortle about it.

Oh that's easy, it's because every single time there are people whining about Thermal Sunder, it's ALWAYS because of Titania; not Gauss, not literally any other frame.  It's just Titania, who is one of the most popular frames right now because of how fast she can get through missions.

Thermal Sunder always gets the blame because it's the go-to helminth option for the speedrunners using the best frame for speedrunning, which is Titania.  If it gets nerfed (again), then speedrunners would simply go to the next best helminth damage option, causing the cycle to repeat and thus not solving the actual source of the problem, which is that these abilities are being used on Titania and no other frame.

By nerfing Titania's Razorwing ability in some form like reducing her flight speed, increasing the base energy drain to make it harder to cast other abilities, or anything else intended to hamstring speedrunners using Titania, then that would more effectively solve the problem than just nerfing Thermal Sunder.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Has Thermal Sunder ever been a problem outside of low level missions?

I don't recall it peforming it any good in steel path, even at base steel path, except when it's Gauss himself using it.

 

I've already said it somewhere, but killing low level trash with so much ease and so fast that even your teammates can't even do a single line of damage in the mission is really nothing special.

For all I care, my teammates >cannot< hit a single enemy if I bring my Saryn with Sobek, regardless of the faction. Steel path included (thanks green shards!).

 

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's not annoying that you don't get to do a single thing in the mission. I'm just saying if your threshold for "op ability" is nuking basic axi fissure enemies, god save you from watching a Gyre just casually run towards enemies with zero button presses and no weapons equipped. Everything TS Titania does, Gyre does better. With no helminth.

[Overcomplicaeta]

9 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Oooh, yes please. I think players could be trusted to use the right queue even if they can’t be trusted to not make problems for everyone (sometimes even themselves).

I’d love to have a sort of “In it to play” versus “In it to not” system where we’re no longer stepping on each other’s toes

You know, come to think on it a bit, DE is technically already trialing a similar system already: Duviri.

Because it's not a spoiler, I'll just say this, we have options with Duviri. Three of them, in fact. 'The Circuit', aka Grind Town Canada. 'The Duviri Experience', aka "Slugtopia"(according to some R&D'ers) the Full experience with activities and Story. Finally 'The Lone Story', where players can experience the amazing, incredible, just jaw-dropping effort of the Developers, shy of any distractions. 

It's a great system, all in all, something for everyone. Now, if they could pull out another amazing miracle, they might be able to apply that to the rest of the game. Give the R&D'ers something to mindlessly grind, give the Players something to play without pressure, and give the Lore Hounds the ability to enjoy the scenery, and absolute majesty of the system so far. 

Frankly, I'd love to see a open-"world" map for Railjack. Wouldn't THAT be something? Grind or no grind, I think that would be amazing.

 

Also, completely aside from my reply: I think a lot of folks focusing on Steel Path vs. Non-SP, are forgetting some of the context. Yes, jumping into Steel Path adds the challenge, it still doesn't add four other people all unlocking relics of different varieties. And yes, people can go Solo, like some people keep repeatedly suggesting, but then you miss out on the Great Relic Variable: sometimes people use vaulted relics, because they have them in excess. Don't play with others? Miss out. Even if you could unlock multiple relics by yourself each run, it's simply not the same. Full stop.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 2 minutes, Overcomplicaeta a dit :

Yes, jumping into Steel Path adds the challenge, it still doesn't add four other people all unlocking relics of different varieties.

Are we queueing up the same missions or am I missing something? Whenever I do sp fissures, I always get randos?

Or did I not get your last point.

[Tiltskillet]

30 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Has Thermal Sunder ever been a problem outside of low level missions?

I don't know if I'd say "problem" but pre-nerf I ran into a couple of Sunder Garudas that completely wrecked non-endurance SP.  And one that wrecked quite high level Circuit, but I don't know what decrees they might have had.  Reportedly there was a lot more of this on the Asian servers.

Post-nerf I don't think I've seen anything like that, but I've spent 90% or more of my time solo in that period.

[Overcomplicaeta]

16 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Are we queueing up the same missions or am I missing something? Whenever I do sp fissures, I always get randos?

Or did I not get your last point.

You know, I must confess, I may have simply been choosing the wrong options. However, I should note that I haven't blown through all of Steel Path, so much of it is still locked for me. I've been changing that, lately, but I confess I don't spend much time on sites like Overframe. Because half my fun is building interesting, non-META builds. These often don't have the Run & Done momentum as some of the Stat-Stickers or Math Breakers other people build to make it easier. I also prefer to play how I like, and that often means using weapons that usually aren't considered all that great for Steel Path. So, it's a slow going process. But, then again, I've never been one for Run &Done. *Shrug*

I'll give it another go after I open up a few more planets, and see if I can get more than maybe one other person, if I'm lucky. 

[RaidouKuzunoha42]

I dunno man just play solo or with friends.

Do not expect random players to hold back or nerf themselves for you. If you're doing fissures you probably just want to get it done quickly, so where is the complaint?

Also you could always run specific fissures with people for the parts you want, and if you ask I'm sure they will probably just use something else.

I don't think thermal sunder needs a nerf when it's specifically only really good in certain situations. Usually if something is nerf worthy it's because it's too good for everything.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 8 minutes, Overcomplicaeta a dit :

I confess I don't spend much time on sites like Overframe. Because half my fun is building interesting, non-META builds.

I'd say a good portion of builds you see on Overframe are a load of grendel fart, for lack of better words.

If you have proper game knowledge and global understanding of a weapon/frame strength, statuses and factions, you would never really need to bother with it. Or else you're gonna be the billionth boring rev roar main, and end up being carried by actual players, that's what people relying only on overframe become, just randos I carry everyday while they just watch while not taking damage because rev definitely needed a buff.

 

If I'd have any tips regarding fissures, it's that you should never expect people in SP for when there's multiple missions but you picked something like Mobile Def. People just tend to avoid these. You'll usually find people playing in stuff like survival if they're going long runs, captures and exterminates in short ones. Defenses are less crowded but CAN have people, unless it's the "new" corpus ship tileset, interceptions are always sort of there. Excavs are run just like normal, disruptions though, I'd say there's less people that dare (although they should).

Spy isn't completely out of question either, it's just it's mostly when there's only just that one for a specific relic tier.

 

But really, just clear all those SP nodes. It's not more time consuming than clearing them all on normal. Just make sure your off meta picks are actually modded.

[Overcomplicaeta]

2 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

I'd say a good portion of builds you see on Overframe are a load of grendel fart, for lack of better words.

If you have proper game knowledge and global understanding of a weapon/frame strength, statuses and factions, you would never really need to bother with it. Or else you're gonna be the billionth boring rev roar main, and end up being carried by actual players, that's what people relying only on overframe become, just randos I carry everyday while they just watch while not taking damage because rev definitely needed a buff.

 

If I'd have any tips regarding fissures, it's that you should never expect people in SP for when there's multiple missions but you picked something like Mobile Def. People just tend to avoid these. You'll usually find people playing in stuff like survival if they're going long runs, captures and exterminates in short ones. Defenses are less crowded but CAN have people, unless it's the "new" corpus ship tileset, interceptions are always sort of there. Excavs are run just like normal, disruptions though, I'd say there's less people that dare (although they should).

Spy isn't completely out of question either, it's just it's mostly when there's only just that one for a specific relic tier.

 

But really, just clear all those SP nodes. It's not more time consuming than clearing them all on normal. Just make sure your off meta picks are actually modded.

Yeah, hence why I try to avoid it. I used Overframe fairly early on, but this was back before I understood how the game applied mechanics, and before I ground out for the Simulacrum. It was initially hard to grasp why I could have a bunch of damage mods on, but never kill anything, and why with the builds I made, throwing tons of shield onto a tankier 'Frame was a pointless endeavor. Honestly, if I had a gripe about DE's execution of the Simulacrum, it would be that it's not immediately available to new players. I feel like it pushes players toward outside sources because people have to grind 50k rep with Cephalon Simaris- which at lower Mastery Ranks (and with less experience) takes a bit of time.

 

You make an excellent point, I do like Mobile Defense missions, and tend to go for those a lot. So I can see where preference gives way to less, sadly. 

 

Yeah, I'm learning much and more about special builds, and the more Helminth I unlock, the better. Like my Valkyrie Zephyr Build (Mag Pull + Tornado Splash Damage), or Dark Heart Trinity (Garuda Blood Alter + Link/Blessing). They're fun, but not Meta; still modded, though.

Speaking of.. Hildryn Prime just finished in my Foundry, time to get to building! :3

 

(P.S.: I previously lost my reply, thank you mobile, but DE has a safety mechanism to restore your post. Thank you DE! I really appreciated not having to retype it all. <3 )

[Iedarus]

4 hours ago, Raarsi said:

Oh that's easy, it's because every single time there are people whining about Thermal Sunder, it's ALWAYS because of Titania; not Gauss, not literally any other frame.  It's just Titania, who is one of the most popular frames right now because of how fast she can get through missions.

Thermal Sunder always gets the blame because it's the go-to helminth option for the speedrunners using the best frame for speedrunning, which is Titania.  If it gets nerfed (again), then speedrunners would simply go to the next best helminth damage option, causing the cycle to repeat and thus not solving the actual source of the problem, which is that these abilities are being used on Titania and no other frame.

By nerfing Titania's Razorwing ability in some form like reducing her flight speed, increasing the base energy drain to make it harder to cast other abilities, or anything else intended to hamstring speedrunners using Titania, then that would more effectively solve the problem than just nerfing Thermal Sunder.

No, you nerf the Helminth variant of Thermal Sunder so default Titanias aren't punished for no reason and the ability is further incentivized to be used with Gauss. It really is perplexing how so many people are complaining about TS Titania while ignoring the absolute MONSTER that is Breach Surge. Booty ghost gets everything, I swear...

[Iedarus]

5 hours ago, Raarsi said:

Oh that's easy, it's because every single time there are people whining about Thermal Sunder, it's ALWAYS because of Titania; not Gauss, not literally any other frame.  It's just Titania, who is one of the most popular frames right now because of how fast she can get through missions.

Thermal Sunder always gets the blame because it's the go-to helminth option for the speedrunners using the best frame for speedrunning, which is Titania.  If it gets nerfed (again), then speedrunners would simply go to the next best helminth damage option, causing the cycle to repeat and thus not solving the actual source of the problem, which is that these abilities are being used on Titania and no other frame.

By nerfing Titania's Razorwing ability in some form like reducing her flight speed, increasing the base energy drain to make it harder to cast other abilities, or anything else intended to hamstring speedrunners using Titania, then that would more effectively solve the problem than just nerfing Thermal Sunder.

No, you nerf the Helminth variant of Thermal Sunder so default Titanias aren't punished for no reason and the ability is further incentivized to be used with Gauss. It really is perplexing how so many people are complaining about TS Titania while ignoring the absolute MONSTER that is Breach Surge. Booty ghost gets everything, I swear...

 

Edit: Friggin double post...

Edited January 4 by Iedarus

[Hexerin]

16 hours ago, Raarsi said:

I want Titania nerfed because something from Helminth is OP on her. Screw all the actual Titania players, they can just suffer.

Damn bro, you going for the "Worst Take of 2024" medal or something?

[Raarsi]

On 2024-01-03 at 10:56 PM, Iedarus said:

No, you nerf the Helminth variant of Thermal Sunder so default Titanias aren't punished for no reason and the ability is further incentivized to be used with Gauss. It really is perplexing how so many people are complaining about TS Titania while ignoring the absolute MONSTER that is Breach Surge. Booty ghost gets everything, I swear...

So then where are all the "Nerf Breach Surge" threads?  Pretty sure it already was nerfed before, although might wanna make a new thread for it just in case.

In fact, when was the last time you ever saw a thread about wanting to see Thermal Sunder nerfed that wasn't about Titania players using it?  Pretty sure the only time I ever saw one involved Garuda, and not only was that years ago, I think that was the last time I ever saw anyone playing her.

18 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Damn bro, you going for the "Worst Take of 2024" medal or something?

Well it wouldn't be the first time a popular frame got a single ability that made them popular nerfed.  Hopefully those poor Wukong mains have moved on with their lives...

Also, it might help if you actually read my second post:

On 2024-01-03 at 5:43 PM, Raarsi said:

By nerfing Titania's Razorwing ability in some form like reducing her flight speed, increasing the base energy drain to make it harder to cast other abilities, or anything else intended to hamstring speedrunners using Titania, then that would more effectively solve the problem than just nerfing Thermal Sunder.

I'm suggesting to only nerf Razorwing, not Titania overall.  If anything, I'd like to see more love for her other abilities, or at the very least making Tribute less obnoxious to use, which would oddly benefit from Razorwing being nerfed given how it renders a couple of things in her kit pointless, specifically half her passive and her companion damage buff from tribute (unless that works on the Razorflies, which I don't believe they do).

Sure, devs could nerf Thermal Sunder, but...

On 2024-01-03 at 5:43 PM, Raarsi said:

If it gets nerfed (again), then speedrunners would simply go to the next best helminth damage option, causing the cycle to repeat and thus not solving the actual source of the problem, which is that these abilities are being used on Titania and no other frame.

...as I explained before, it's only relieving the symptom and not the problem.

Edited January 5 by Raarsi

[Merkranire]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:35 AM, Overcomplicaeta said:

You know, come to think on it a bit, DE is technically already trialing a similar system already: Duviri.

Because it's not a spoiler, I'll just say this, we have options with Duviri. Three of them, in fact. 'The Circuit', aka Grind Town Canada. 'The Duviri Experience', aka "Slugtopia"(according to some R&D'ers) the Full experience with activities and Story. Finally 'The Lone Story', where players can experience the amazing, incredible, just jaw-dropping effort of the Developers, shy of any distractions. 

It's a great system, all in all, something for everyone. Now, if they could pull out another amazing miracle, they might be able to apply that to the rest of the game. Give the R&D'ers something to mindlessly grind, give the Players something to play without pressure, and give the Lore Hounds the ability to enjoy the scenery, and absolute majesty of the system so far. 

Frankly, I'd love to see a open-"world" map for Railjack. Wouldn't THAT be something? Grind or no grind, I think that would be amazing.

 

Also, completely aside from my reply: I think a lot of folks focusing on Steel Path vs. Non-SP, are forgetting some of the context. Yes, jumping into Steel Path adds the challenge, it still doesn't add four other people all unlocking relics of different varieties. And yes, people can go Solo, like some people keep repeatedly suggesting, but then you miss out on the Great Relic Variable: sometimes people use vaulted relics, because they have them in excess. Don't play with others? Miss out. Even if you could unlock multiple relics by yourself each run, it's simply not the same. Full stop.

That’s true about the way Duviri is set up; it too makes me wonder how it could be applied to the rest of the game. Even when relic cracking I have to prepare myself to spend however long it takes just sort of not playing the game because the other players are doing it for me, and often (usually) I find myself just cracking relics alone, extra drops be damned, because I’ve tried both multiplayer and single player and found the difference in experience so drastic that I’d rather take the hit to grinding rate for optional bits and pieces instead of the hit to gameplay.

Man… what a different game it’d be if I could expect to join a group and get both gameplay and extra rewards instead of choosing gameplay over reward in order to preserve any semblance of time well spent. I’d actually look forward to jumping into a multiplayer match more

[KaijuKraid]

5 hours ago, Raarsi said:

In fact, when was the last time you ever saw a thread about wanting to see Thermal Sunder nerfed that wasn't about Titania players using it?  Pretty sure the only time I ever saw one involved Garuda, and not only was that years ago, I think that was the last time I ever saw anyone playing her.

The one about Garuda was only a couple of months before the release of Dagath, due to the fact that Thermal Sunder was nerfed in that patch to which quite a few people believe it was not enough. There's also a thread posted by Hexerin which is literally on the second page of this part of the forums which mentions not just Titania, but also Harrow. Apparently it was a massive problem in the Asian Servers.

Once that thread appeared, I started seeing quite a lot of Thermal Sunder Garuda a lot in places. Even before that thread, I'd seen my fair share of Thermal Sunder Harrows though.

 

I wouldn't want Titania Razorwing to be nerfed just because of one ability. I like Titania. I like Razorwing. I've never used Thermal Sunder on her. I've never even put Helminth abilities on her. Why should Razorwing Titania be nerfed when she's got great use for fighting the likes of Lephantis, Hemocyst and the Orowyrms due to people abusing a literally ability that can clear entire low level trash rooms.

People mentioning if you nerf Thermal Sunder, you'll get the next best thing. Same thing with Titania though. If Titania's Razorwing is nerfed, people will just move onto the second best options. Thermal Sunder Wukong? Maybe. Thermal Sunder Nova? Maybe. They both can traverse rooms quicker than most other frames, just not Titania speed. Are these a thing right now? No. I'm probably being laughed at for even thinking about such a thing, but they are quick enough to get through rooms, Thermal Sunder rinse and repeat. They're just not Titania speed. 

[Aruquae]

18 minutes ago, KaijuKraid said:

The one about Garuda was only a couple of months before the release of Dagath, due to the fact that Thermal Sunder was nerfed in that patch to which quite a few people believe it was not enough. There's also a thread posted by Hexerin which is literally on the second page of this part of the forums which mentions not just Titania, but also Harrow. Apparently it was a massive problem in the Asian Servers.

Once that thread appeared, I started seeing quite a lot of Thermal Sunder Garuda a lot in places. Even before that thread, I'd seen my fair share of Thermal Sunder Harrows though.

 

I wouldn't want Titania Razorwing to be nerfed just because of one ability. I like Titania. I like Razorwing. I've never used Thermal Sunder on her. I've never even put Helminth abilities on her. Why should Razorwing Titania be nerfed when she's got great use for fighting the likes of Lephantis, Hemocyst and the Orowyrms due to people abusing a literally ability that can clear entire low level trash rooms.

People mentioning if you nerf Thermal Sunder, you'll get the next best thing. Same thing with Titania though. If Titania's Razorwing is nerfed, people will just move onto the second best options. Thermal Sunder Wukong? Maybe. Thermal Sunder Nova? Maybe. They both can traverse rooms quicker than most other frames, just not Titania speed. Are these a thing right now? No. I'm probably being laughed at for even thinking about such a thing, but they are quick enough to get through rooms, Thermal Sunder rinse and repeat. They're just not Titania speed. 

This is the same thing with Garuda. I pointed out Garuda being completely fine, it’s thermal sunder that’s the problem. Garuda’s simply only used as an easy energy source (like Harrow). A solution can add an internal cooldown to the ability that reduces spamming from macros and players. 

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 5 minutes, Hexerin a dit :

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about, and thus can be summarily disregarded as ignorant.

He's out of line, but he's right about Thermal Sunder being problematic only on specific frames. Titania and Garuda being the main culprits for clearing everything too fast in normal mode fissures, Harrow being also one of them but less pointed out.

You'd think Volt would be an issue considering he's fast and could just as well sub TS, yet it's not nearly as popular, same with Protea gaining strength hence sizeable damage gain through her passive.

 

So you ask yourself the question, how did this all happen to begin with? Then you realise what was popularized by content creators and what their thought process was. It was clearing waves upon waves of corrupted enemies fast to acquire traces fast while speeding through the tileset.

Then you take whatever's the fastest and easy to handle despite its speed and apply Thermal Sunder to it. Precisely what TS Titania is.

Gauss sure runs fast when you invest in his speed through modding him or exterior sources (like the Praedos and Amalgam Serration for instance), but he's still bound to the ground and you would need mach rush to achieve Titania's regular speed.

 

Flying over obstacles and not doing poorly in tight corridors that have weird collision detection everywhere further amplifies the gap between Titania and other ground based common TS spammers, pretty much centralizing the meta all around her.

 

It's not that Titania is the issue here. It's not TS being the problem either. It's how the combination has become so popular that it became meta defining.

 

But just as a friendly reminder, you can simply run a Toxin high damage Kuva Tonkor and run through the mission just as fast. It doesn't even take any skill like aiming or anything of the like either. Even base Tonkor could do just as much work given enough investment in modding.

 

I find it too easy to blame it all on just Thermal Sunder and ignore the fact that the entire game has been clearly powercrept and that base star chart is just no longer what the game is balanced around. Move over to steel path if you want any sort of challenging content, because base star chart is not it. Even if you're just a new tenno, if you're taught how to mod accordingly, there is no node in the base game that you would not stomp on. Meanwhile you're not seeing any TS spam Titanias in steel path because it's just not viable there, just like alot of the average weak ability based build that has no defense strips whatsoever with not that much base damage whereas Gauss rightfully does good with his own TS with proper builds. Strange, isn't it?

[Iedarus]

10 hours ago, Raarsi said:

So then where are all the "Nerf Breach Surge" threads?  Pretty sure it already was nerfed before, although might wanna make a new thread for it just in case.

In fact, when was the last time you ever saw a thread about wanting to see Thermal Sunder nerfed that wasn't about Titania players using it?  Pretty sure the only time I ever saw one involved Garuda, and not only was that years ago, I think that was the last time I ever saw anyone playing her.

People have complained about Breach Surge but it still absolutely decimates Steel Path. I have seen waaay more WuBramma abusers than TS Titanias, assuming I even saw the latter, at all.

I'll also hazard a guess the reason why TS is complained about more is because Steel Path players make up a small portion of the playerbase. They don't understand that in base star chart, any solid AOE can delete tilesets. I play almost exclusively Steel Path and I have yet to get a game where I'm playing Walking Simulator like I was when WuBramma was meta.

Like I said, do not punish default Titanias, otherwise they'll basically have to run it because they got balanced around it. Just nerf the Helminth variant.

[Lord_Drod]

There's so many tools for exterms, especially non steel path.  People are playing her because she's easy, no parkour, and so is thermal sunder.  I happen to prefer the parkour system so I never play her.  If you deleted her and gauss, nothing would change for normal exterms.  Those players would just move to the next easy meta thing available to them and there's so many options.  I actually enjoy the challenge of beating these titanias in SP.  There's high variance in skill amongst titanias, and also the tileset matters. 

I think if I run against some guy for 10 missions trying my best and can't get a kill except those eximus they leave behind, it would kinda suck, but only because I'm using my fastest elite setup that I've min maxed that isn't titania and is off meta.  So I guess I could still feel good about it competing with everything else.  That said, it really isn't a competition and this is just Warframe in general.  I have multiple setups and combos of things I use for SP exterm fissures (they are my favorite along with many other players) and I usually get most of the kills.  There's times when I'm last leveling some things and trying to crack and that's fine too.

Maybe they will add some harder fissures along the tune of abyssal zone with eximus strongholds that will definitely limit TS/Titanias effectiveness.  However, you can still cheese quickly with other strong setups.  The issue is just Titania/TS is probably easier to setup and do than some others you might have to think about or setup or work for.  In a non SP exterm, any aoe or ability nuke that is semi fast can kill the entire mission in seconds.  We get more combos of things all the time including the melee arcanes, new shards etc.  I feel like most people with meta setups run SP, cuz non SP is pretty painful if you have a power setup.

In exterms also players often get turned around and don't pay attention to the direction extract is, but where lotus is pointing to the last enemy you skipped.  So its easy to fall behind if you go the wrong way.  It took me a long time though to learn the tiles and stop doing this and if you load in late, you'll often not know which way to go.  Even when I'm going the right way, or know the way lotus is saying to go is wrong, I can't exactly waypoint the group, because I haven't figured out the way, but I know I'm near it and not to follow lotus.  The rest of the group follows lotus and is way behind.  There's plenty of titanias that get lost like this.  I realize this isn't really your issue, but it can help stay ahead of players spamming if you just generally know the way to go.  This is SP advice because you will always have the issue of trying to keep up with fast frames, especially in exterm fissures.

[-BellaMuerte-]

Not all of us Titania enjoyers use Thermal Sunder .. personally I dont care for the ability but thats just me. 

[DarkSkysz]

Gauss prime incoming...

Place your bets > how many of those posts asking to nerf thermal will pop up 5 minutes after the prime access release?

[Vaalm]

Thermal sunder doesn’t need a nerf at all unless it’s the helminth version.

We have insane frames like Wisp and Saryn who just make the game extremely easy and people don’t seem give much of a crap cause it benefits them or the team (especially in SP) 

[Pakaku]

1 hour ago, Vaalm said:

Thermal sunder doesn’t need a nerf at all unless it’s the helminth version.

We have insane frames like Wisp and Saryn who just make the game extremely easy and people don’t seem give much of a crap cause it benefits them or the team (especially in SP) 

I'd love to see Saryns in the wild again, the screaming would at least freshen up the monotony of listening to Sunder spam

[DeathOfASaint]

only in wf forums u will see people complain about getting to the loot faster in a looter shooter game

Edited February 23 by DeathOfASaint