How DE is not even trying to fix problems with Warframes

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 19 horas, (PSN)Unstar dijo:

You have numerous Warframes in this list that are doing absolutely great right now.  I'm not an expert on every single Warframe, but Ash, Hildryn, and Ivara are in great shape.  And the fact that you included them on this list makes me doubt your claims about many of the others.

I would highly recommend that you get on YouTube and search for build videos showcasing what these frames can do.  You will definitely be surprised.

absolutely fine? So they don't have errors or need the slightest revision? I would say that at least Ivara is not as bad as other warframes, but it has several problems that a small revision that adjusts some things would make it impeccable. Hildryn has one of the worst exalted weapons, she has the highest base damage, but has no crits or status and her fire speed and charged shot are very slow, her 4 restricts you to using her exalted, but doesn't give her any boost in absolute (it doesn't even increase the rate of fire despite using 2 cannons). Much has already been said about Ash, it is obvious that he is not feeling well.

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

absolutely fine? So they don't have errors or need the slightest revision?

With respect, I trust that you know that changing my statement of "doing absolutely great right now" to "doesn't need even the slightest revision" that you were moving the goalposts.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

With respect, I trust that you know that changing my statement of "doing absolutely great right now" to "doesn't need even the slightest revision" that you were moving the goalposts.

Huh, how has Leyenda moved the goalposts?? That statement makes zero sense.

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 minute ago, (PSN)FrDiabloFr said:

Huh, how has Leyenda moved the goalposts?? That statement makes zero sense.

If this thread was about how literally every frame could be improved in some way, and I said frame X was "doing absolutely great right now", I think it would be fair to interpret my statement as meaning frame X "doesn't need even the slightest revision".

But that's not what this thread is about.  This thread is about which frames are in dire need of help.  And in that context, interpreting my statement that frame X is "doing absolutely great right now" as my saying frame X "doesn't need even the slightest revision" warps my words.

Because no frame is perfect, they could all use some slight revisions.  You can be doing great and not be perfect, as is the case for every frame that validly gets labeled as A-rank.  Ergo stating that a frame is doing great does not imply that they couldn't use even the slightest revision, and should not be interpreted as such.

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

If this thread was about how literally every frame could be improved in some way, and I said frame X was "doing absolutely great right now", I think it would be fair to interpret my statement as meaning frame X "doesn't need even the slightest revision".

But that's not what this thread is about.  This thread is about which frames are in dire need of help.  And in that context, interpreting my statement that frame X is "doing absolutely great right now" as my saying frame X "doesn't need even the slightest revision" warps my words.

Because no frame is perfect, they could all use some slight revisions.  You can be doing great and not be perfect, as is the case for every frame that validly gets labeled as A-rank.  Ergo stating that a frame is doing great does not imply that they couldn't use even the slightest revision, and should not be interpreted as such.

That still didn’t answer the question.

[Tiltskillet]

28 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

If this thread was about how literally every frame could be improved in some way, and I said frame X was "doing absolutely great right now", I think it would be fair to interpret my statement as meaning frame X "doesn't need even the slightest revision".

But that's not what this thread is about.  This thread is about which frames are in dire need of help.  And in that context, interpreting my statement that frame X is "doing absolutely great right now" as my saying frame X "doesn't need even the slightest revision" warps my words.

Personally out of all the frames the OP listed, I only would have said Vauban was "doing great".  Hildryn I would have considered, but I can't get around the fact she's got two pretty bad abilities and one really dull one, and is propped up remarkably well by Pillage her passives, and the Helminth system. 

OTOH, out of the ones in the OP "in desperate need of help" I only really agreed with Inaros  and Chroma.  Though Trinity and Ember I don't feel I know well enough to have an opinion, and a couple of others I believe are in desperate need of a rethink (Limbo) or bugfixes (Caliban) rather than what I think the OP meant by "help".  And all of them (and many more) could use some help, just not "desperately".

So...words and opinions and opinions on words are interesting!  Or maybe not, YMMV, etc. :P

[(PSN)Unstar]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Personally out of all the frames the OP listed, I only would have said Vauban was "doing great".  Hildryn I would have considered, but I can't get around the fact she's got two pretty bad abilities and one really dull one, and is propped up remarkably well by Pillage her passives, and the Helminth system. 

OTOH, out of the ones in the OP "in desperate need of help" I only really agreed with Inaros  and Chroma.  Though Trinity and Ember I don't feel I know well enough to have an opinion, and a couple of others I believe are in desperate need of a rethink (Limbo) or bugfixes (Caliban) rather than what I think the OP meant by "help".  And all of them (and many more) could use some help, just not "desperately".

So...words and opinions and opinions on words are interesting!  Or maybe not, YMMV, etc. :P

Yeah, it certainly is interesting to see such a variety of different opinions on frames.  And on reflection, I assume the conversation is inherently fraught because we all engage with the game and its balance in truly diverse ways.  Some folks are Steel Path, some normal, some endless level cap.  Some consider balance to be what the frame itself brings to the table devoid of other tools, some consider it to be what combos and loadouts you can make with it.  Some consider augments to be evidence of flaws in the core design, others consider augments to be worthy of the slots they use.  Some players are more focused on the in-game effectiveness of a frame, others are more focused on the holistic design.  There are varying thoughts on to what extent it matters if an effective build relies on certain abilities while rendering other abilities less useful or arguably useless.  And of course, the missions a Tenno likes to do will definitely impact their perception as well; exterminate makes the game a kill race, while modes like survival are more lax, etc.  All of which will shift the lens through which a given player views the nebulous concept of balance.

So in hindsight, I was probably a bit hasty in casting doubt on the veracity of OP's claims merely because it differed from my experience and the experiences I had seen others having.  It would have been more thoughtful to simply note my experience and how it disagreed with theirs.

[Tiltskillet]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

Yeah, it certainly is interesting to see such a variety of different opinions on frames.  And on reflection, I assume the conversation is inherently fraught because we all engage with the game and its balance in truly diverse ways. 

Shoot I often have a variety of contradictory opinions on the same frame, lol.  I can simultaneously feel like Ivara is both one of the best and one of the worst designed frames in the game, for instance.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

I'd say they're all functionnal, except Inaros.

Others have annoying issues in their main gameplay loop though.

Here's a brick of hot takes on every frame :

Révélation

• Ash's Shuriken is essentially worthless, even with the augment, considering what is specialty is (enormous slash procs), marking targets cannot happen until your shadow clones are done doing their work, so you might as well just join in with teleport.
• Atlas's boulder is an automatic subsume because it accomplishes nothing worth the 50 energy. Landslide is a pseudo exalt so it's bound to the entire discussion about if it's fair for it to be good only with stat sticks etc. Rumblers don't feel like a 4. Landslide also cannot target anything that's ragdolled for whatever reason.
• Baruuk, he's mostly fine, but Elude is kinda troll.
• Caliban is underappreciated, but his 1 is a complete waste.
• Chroma's dragonflight is a joke, I don't consider an extra jump being flight. His spectral scream doesn't tick fast enough for the base damage that it has. His entire kit basically doesn't scale well with range, his Vex armor can be shut down by his own teammates applying him permanent overguard or overshields. Effigy is 100% wasted potential.
• Ember's energy drain on immolation is as ridiculous as Grendel's energy drain on feast was and needs to be adressed. Also World on Fire needs to replace Inferno again, because a meteor shower on her doesn't make sense thematically (and it's also visually unappealing to me, friendly reminder it's just my two cents).
• Equinox's metamorphosis buffs decreasing over time doesn't incentivize swapping form regularly, it's just there so you can wonder what could've been while you stay in Day form forever.
• Excalibur slash dash targeting priority is very weird, his radial javelin is worthless past level 60 enemies, and well, his Exalted Blade comes with 10 less capacity than your average melee, and can't use arcanes either, nor can it use stuff like Blood Rush that would make it otherwise viable.
• Frost's passive is a joke, his 2 is a joke as well, but weirdly enough, both would be much better if their respective augments were fused by default.
• Gara can't build melee combo from her 1 unlike other stat stick related pseudos. Lame. Also can't hit anything that's ragdoll'd with it.
• Hildryn's Aegis Storm is pure troll. Reduces her overall mobility, she can't use Pillage but Arcane Barrier & Aegis work, the CC radius is based on your altitude, you can't use any weapon outside of Balefire, but it's not granted any bonus whatsoever. No surprise it's always subbed off, or never pressed.
• Inaros lacks an entire functional kit. Just because he has 10k health doesn't mean he should be nothing more than a comfortable suit in which you can use your guns in peace.
• Ivara's Navigator is kind of questionable. Like, sure, that's strong and everything but why would anyone use this outside of a little trolling moment?
• Lavos : I see no one talks about him, but I would've liked him so much more if he actually had energy. Having his rotation be "cause lung cancer to every possible target near you by spaming all sorts of elements" then use catalyze gets dull fast seeing how tedious it is to perform reliably. Under the right circumstances, he's the absolute strongest frame, but he's also a pain in the butt to use for it. So I know why I rarely ever see any outside of Railjack.
• Limbo is plagued by the Rift status being a problem for teammates and Stasis completely stopping enemy movement rather than projectiles (which would've made him weak to melee units like infested, but so much more usable in a team).
• Loki is all CC in a game where units that need to be CC'd are immune to it and everything else is dealt with in miliseconds.
• Mag's Polarize is irrelevant thanks to Crush's Augment. Also for whatever reason her passive's not working?
• Mesa doesn't have a whole lot going on outside of Peacemakers.
• Nezha's Chakram should be some sort of pseudo exalt like Khora's whip so we can mod it for damage, it kinda stinks for damage if you rise enemy level just a bit, even with the vulnerability it adds.
• Nidus kinda takes too long to stack up for non endless missions due to enemy density, or lack there of.
• Nova's Antimatter bomb not scaling with range feels kind of weird. Wormhole is visually unappealing (to me ofc).
• Nyx's Absorb is unusable in modern Warframe without its augment (and I mean the one that lets you move), her mind controlling abilities would be less worthless if her defense striping naturally bounced between targets like Sevagoth's Reap augment. Also, lol, passive? You guys get a passive?
• Oberon's energy economy and kit make him just a worse choice when Wisp is around.
• Octavia. When you try to buff your allies to grant them all sorts of stuff, but all they can do is get invisibility...
• Protea's 4 is just wasted energy if you cancel the rewind, it would be less subsumed off if it did the explosion regardless.
• Qorvex's 2 looks great but I'd rather just use Airburst or Ensnare.
• Revenant's whole kit is press 2 then you're free to do anything for a solid half minute. Who was responsible for this disaster? I'm sick of seeing this frame everywhere just because it can't die. Inaros syndrome all over again. No incentive to use his spells properly.
• Rhino's a solid frame, but why is his passive so worthless? Can't he get some bonus damage while wielding heavier weapons like archguns, hammers and the like?
• Trinity's spells base duration.
• Valkyr's kit outside of her 2. Where is it? I like her claws but plagued by exalt tax, no combo mods, no nothing.
• Wisp's laser. The whole frame is insanely strong, but her laser's plagued by the same issue as Spectral Scream, it just doesn't tick fast enough to be worthwhile.

 

Sorry if you actually read all this. It's just a big list of things I'm displeased with. But my point is that you can find issues on just about any frame, that doesn't mean they're completely unusable. The only one that I'd call an exception to this is Inaros.

[Tiltskillet]

6 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Sorry if you actually read all this. It's just a big list of things I'm displeased with.

I'm impressed Banshee didn't make your list.  Actually she hasn't turned up in this thread at all afaict.  Which is odd for long forum threads about frames that need help.

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 1 hora, Tiltskillet dijo:

I'm impressed Banshee didn't make your list.  Actually she hasn't turned up in this thread at all afaict.  Which is odd for long forum threads about frames that need help.

who is banshee? 🤔

[Tiltskillet]

26 minutes ago, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

who is banshee? 🤔

LOL, fair, but that joke rightfully belongs to Caliban. :P Cali owns that joke.   Although maybe he's renting it out?

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Il y a 5 heures, Tiltskillet a dit :

I'm impressed Banshee didn't make your list.  Actually she hasn't turned up in this thread at all afaict.  Which is odd for long forum threads about frames that need help.

She didn't because I had to keep things civilized. Soundquake's state does not allow me to remain civilized.

[NovaLP]

17 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

I'm impressed Banshee didn't make your list.

Funny story about banshee, back in the day before shield gate, gloom and the soundquake changes banshee was one of the best frames in the game. Low level nuke with her 4 + aug and her other abilities for high level endurance runs, but incredibly low survivability.

I felt like she was too much of a pain to play without gloom and shield gate but I always respected the players that did. And hey, the payout for the pain was worth it on Banshee.

Banshee still has 2 great abilties and 1 good one, but ye i agree. Her 4's current state is rly bad... but can be subsumed off for a good ability that synergizes well with her kit and voila you got a great frame again. So i kinda forgott about her 4

I actually remembered about Caliban because I tried to make him good and play him because I liked his design, but just couldn't... he was always underperforming regardless of investment and some things like his passive and 1 make me rly mad.

[NovaLP]

17 hours ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Sorry if you actually read all this.

No need to be sorry, i actually read through all that.

And I agree with most except, Baruuk's Elude being troll

It's his better form of survivability if you don't play a DR build, keep attacking with your 4, if shield goes down -> stop attacking for a sec -> if shield is full -> start attacking again.

No additional survivability slapped on needed, Elude does that all if you manage to use it correctly.