Inaranon Head-Shots = Too Many. Body Shots = Too Few.

[Xzorn]

The Title is actually most of it but I started typing and decided to cover a few other things.

Head-shot Incarnons require far too many head-shots, Esp things like Braton, Gorgon, Burston while body shot weapons like Torrid and Anstrum you get in 1-2 hits. I realize Multi-shot plays a role in this but maybe it shouldn't? Either way. This could use adjusting IMO and some like the head-shot weapons I mentioned could use a lil more love.

Some Inarcnon forms are also entirely inferior to the base weapon form which seems counter intuitive. Zylok, Gorgon, Atomos and Strun are notable ones.
This is obviously an issue with status rates which is another topic I' wanted to bring up in another post but a quick summary would work I guess.

Basically give all weapons a Status Multiplier. 2x being standard. Change this stat for Incarnon forms like 5x. You may also want to introduce a mod for it.
While it's cool Status can go over 100% now. 200% is still only 2x instead of Crit Multi which goes much higher so it's not really worth going over 100%.

Thus pure status weapons remain dead.

What do you guys think?

[Tiltskillet]

30 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

What do you guys think?

I think they should rebalance Incarnon input/output amounts  pretty much across the board, particularly since they removed the ability for multishot to charge off of corpse heads.  Probably should just take multi out of the equation to simplify things.  This time account a little better for the degree of difficulty in hitting headshots with different weapons.  Maybe...maybe add body shot charging to more weapons as long as headshots are more efficient for people who can hit them.

Also should boost power levels on some of them, fix a bunch of evolution bugs, and rethink several evolutions that never make sense to pick up.

[taiiat]

here's another thought/angle - Incarnons which are suspiciously easy to charge - could have 'Magazine' for their transformation that is respective to being easier and faster to charge.
that would be something unique compared to most in that regard, you can use it a lot more frequently over the longterm. so the pro is the elevated uptime.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Tiltskillet said:

I think they should rebalance Incarnon input/output amounts  pretty much across the board, particularly since they removed the ability for multishot to charge off of corpse heads.  Probably should just take multi out of the equation to simplify things.  This time account a little better for the degree of difficulty in hitting headshots with different weapons.  Maybe...maybe add body shot charging to more weapons as long as headshots are more efficient for people who can hit them.

Also should boost power levels on some of them, fix a bunch of evolution bugs, and rethink several evolutions that never make sense to pick up.

 

I can see a mix working. 1 point for body shot, 5 points for head-shots.

I know what you mean about odd options too. Braton Prime is a good example. One option is to use your multi-shot as ammo which was brought up a long time ago. Anyways the second option is "On Punch-Through Head-Shot 20% chance to restore 10% magazine. This combination would work far better as strictly head-shots.

If you don't get head-shots you blow through you mag in a second but if you have good head-shot rate you'd hardly need to reload.

 

28 minutes ago, taiiat said:

here's another thought/angle - Incarnons which are suspiciously easy to charge - could have 'Magazine' for their transformation that is respective to being easier and faster to charge.
that would be something unique compared to most in that regard, you can use it a lot more frequently over the longterm. so the pro is the elevated uptime.

 

I have noticed this with some weapons. They have a bigger "meter" for the alternate fire but currently it in no way justifies the time to fill the meter.
I'd wager it's not even 50/50 currently on the best of high "meter magazines". This works. It just needs some tweaking.

[taiiat]

27 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I have noticed this with some weapons. They have a bigger "meter" for the alternate fire but currently it in no way justifies the time to fill the meter.
I'd wager it's not even 50/50 currently on the best of high "meter magazines". This works. It just needs some tweaking.

(yes, i wasn't suggesting it is currently, but that it's another possible avenue)

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Don't necessarily see the issue with some Incarnon base forms, seeming more superior than the Incarnon form. I say seems, because often, its just a matter of situation and goals. Atomos Incarnon for example, personally I like using the base version more, for general enemies, which in most missions, are the majority. Then using the Incarnon mode on Acolytes, where is extremely effective against them. Creates a pretty rewarding gameplay loop. Can also synergise differently based on your Warframe, abilities and build. Felarx was also the forerunner of this sort of thing. Its only counter intuitive if you have a particular intuition or perspective on the weapons. Which, is totally fair, I had that as well, when the Felarx was released, I was quite disappointed. Then I actually just thought about it, and recognised, I actually prefer the Felarx base form, being the generally more practical form, I would use more. 

Different people will have different splits on base/Incarnon depending on the weapon, and potentially scenario (like faction, or enemy type etc), and I think thats far more interesting and better than prescribing to a notion, that the Incarnon form, must always be far superior in any given situation. That and overall, I find most Incarnon forms, generally superior. Its just interesting to me, its not ubiquitous.

As for headshot issue, I don't really notice it, so don't feel too strongly, as in I am not opposed or anything. Certain weapons can have overall more multi shot, and a lot of certain weapons that require headshots often don't, but there is also the issue with enemy corpses and overkill. I like to play Steel Path, and with builds that require ramping up on buffs, versus outright flat damage, so it feels pretty easy to build up charge fast, especially if there is an Eximus around. In those situations, only really the Atomos, I tend to notice struggling, just because it chains and will kill a lot of enemies, limiting my ability to charge off them. 

If there are changes, i think the corpse change was a bit overzealous, but IIRC that was an issue that was made apparent due to Torid, which is one of my least used. I would also like them to fix the several tree/evolution bugs, and potentially rebalance some of the conditions, buffs etc. Especially some of the melee ones. Wouldn't be opposed to some of OP's either, to be clear. 

[KitMeHarder]

3 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

particularly since they removed the ability for multishot to charge off of corpse heads. 

Things would be fine if they just reverted this IMO. Just make it so corpse heads/bodies only count for ~0.5 seconds instead of the previous "abusable" 5-10 seconds.

[(PSN)Krimson_Kloun]

I find it more difficult on certain shotguns. Like the boar and the strun for instance. If I shoot an enemy in the head it it immediately dies. This barely gives any progress towards the incarnon meter. This in steel path too so...can we fix this and it not be a neverending thing?

[(PSN)Sentiel]

Incarnon charging is utterly unbalanced across the board.

The most glaring examples are Torid and Boar.

Torid charges off of anything and everything, even a level 1 enemy will give me a third of bar on a body shot, whereas Boar specifically needs to hit something extremely tanky to the head to get even a little charge.

What's even worse about this is that Boar's Incarnon was made to be a crowd dispenser and is useless against single targets, so you should be able to charge it quickly and use it as your main attack mode to clear off the weak enemies until you run into a tough enemy it can't handle where you would revert to the normal mode to kill it. There is a working dynamic in this which is invalidated because Boar charges the slowest out of all Incarnons (perhaps paired with Strun), where I get only a tiny, barely visible charge for headshoting a lvl 200 Steel Path Grineer.

You can't have a Incarnon that specifically needs Eximus or a Boss to charge. That's silly.

Edited January 10 by (PSN)Sentiel
Typo fixes

[Tiltskillet]

1 minute ago, KitMeHarder said:

Things would be fine if they just reverted this IMO. Just make it so corpse heads/bodies only count for ~0.5 seconds instead of the previous "abusable" 5-10 seconds.

Was it really that long when it got changed?

Since a few things like sniper combo multishot work despite overkill it seems like they wouldn't have to do anything as sloppy as re-enabling corpse hits.  That said, I don't feel like the system needs to be easier overall than it is now.  The main thing I'd like is some charge tuning by weapon so that things make  more sense.  Bronco should not feel 3x harder to charge up than Burston for 1/30th of the Incarnon mag.

[Hexerin]

All incarnons should generate charge from simply hitting the target.

[_Euphoria_]

This problem have been made more apparent to me with the new Murmur faction which have really ambiguous weakpoints. I find it bothersone to charge headshot/weakpoint incarnon against the likes of crawling hands and the anatomizer thingies etc.

On the other hand, with torid and angstrum, just shoot anything once and you are done.

not fair

[KitMeHarder]

5 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Was it really that long when it got changed?

It was pretty long, IDK the exact duration. I feel like you could basically shoot corpses on the ground until they naturally dissolved.

5 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

That said, I don't feel like the system needs to be easier overall than it is now.

It's not really "easier" IMO, more like fair. Have you tried to max charge a gun like the Boar? Even on SP grineer solo it still kinda feels like trash. All the shotgun types feel this way because only the multishot that "hits" before the enemy dies counts. And when you have 8x the multishot, you're 8x more screwed by this change.

IMO incarnons felt fine and fair before DE made this change.

Edited January 10 by KitMeHarder

[0_The_F00l]

I don't want it to be easier to charge incarnons per se.

But I do feel it should be more balanced , for some the amount of effort is higher than others.

The Torid is the most glaring example. Maybe a much smaller charging for body shots and the same charging we currently see for headshots would be more suitable.

The only reason I say this is cause the torid gets bonkers in incarnon mode and that is just asking for a Nerf , I would rather it be more difficult to charge up.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

5 hours ago, Hexerin said:

All incarnons should generate charge from simply hitting the target.

you'd have to only get a teeny, tiny,_microscopic amount of charge per hit on rapid fire weapons, but if it were balanced properly this could work.

[ReddyDisco]

Shotgun incarnons i found to be the longest to get a full charge like strun and boar, it's prolly something to do with multishot. It is really not fun when one weapon type take 3 times longer to charge than others.

[Waeleto]

Honestly ? we should just gain charges for HITTING targets

[Aruquae]

8 hours ago, Hexerin said:

All incarnons should generate charge from simply hitting the target.

Agreed, and maybe they could get bonus charge when hitting weak points/headshots to reward actually aiming 

[(PSN)Unstar]

16 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Inaranon Head-Shots = Too Many. Body Shots = Too Few.

I actually interpreted this differently.  I think there are too many Incarnon weapons that require headshots, and not enough that require body shots.  I think greater variety in this area would give players more options and more ways to play the game in a way that suits their needs and playstyle.  I'd also love to see other methods of generating Incarnon juice besides these two.

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, KitMeHarder said:

IMO incarnons felt fine and fair before DE made this change.

I would not go that far.

 

4 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

Shotgun incarnons i found to be the longest to get a full charge like strun and boar, it's prolly something to do with multishot. It is really not fun when one weapon type take 3 times longer to charge than others.

It's a combination of limited multishot counting on kills; shotguns having a lot of damage generally, so prone to overkilling; and spread being an issue.  All these problems are much less severe against tougher targets.

Personally I find Bronco much less forgiving than Strun.  (Incidentally, I use multishot rivens on both.)  I don't have Incarnon Boar yet.

edit: Oh, Strun takes 40 headshots to get 40 charges.  Bronco takes 40 headshots to get 20.  I guess that's why. :/

Edited January 10 by Tiltskillet

[Xzorn]

Shotguns most certainly charge the slowest and I find going for head-shots to be questionable. Some with tight spread would be preference.
Strun, Tigris, Boar. These all have decent spread and even if you're going upper-body. 30% of your pellets are just missing.

I always try to get Punch-Through on a Riven with those types. Yea you do Head-Crit damage but when you consider enemy density and pellets missing. I find it equally if not more effective to just body shot and hit 3-5 enemies per. Head-shots to charge Incarnon with shotguns just feels off to me.

I used to run Vicious Spread for the extra spread.

 

3 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

I actually interpreted this differently.  I think there are too many Incarnon weapons that require headshots, and not enough that require body shots.  I think greater variety in this area would give players more options and more ways to play the game in a way that suits their needs and playstyle.  I'd also love to see other methods of generating Incarnon juice besides these two.

I mean, I can see what they're going for. I used the mini-map to play the game unless it was an endurance run where these conditions actually come naturally. I had Marelok show up on SP Circuit and kept high kills and the triple digit head-shots cuz that muscle memory kicked in. I used to love that gun.

They might be able to do something with specific weapons like Quanta's Cube + Primary combo but not sure about most.
Most you either head-shot or body-shot and a variable gain seems like the best option.

[MutoManiac]

Caring whether the Boar incarnon charges or not is like me caring if the Felarx charges or not. Best shotgun ever! With a nice riven that gives me multi-shot, CD and 95.6% fire rate, it makes me tear up a little. 🙂

[ReddyDisco]

6 hours ago, MutoManiac said:

Caring whether the Boar incarnon charges or not is like me caring if the Felarx charges or not. Best shotgun ever! With a nice riven that gives me multi-shot, CD and 95.6% fire rate, it makes me tear up a little. 🙂

You do care about boar charging because its incarnon is actually good unlike felarx. chaining beam like torid that has great crowd clearning potential 

[MutoManiac]

6 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

You do care about boar charging because its incarnon is actually good unlike felarx. chaining beam like torid that has great crowd clearning potential 

It’s just a really good bonus, but the regular non-charged mode is fantastic. I’d rather have that than most of them that are painful to use in regular non incarnon mode. The Atomos is also really good (with a riven of course) and I usually never activate the incarnon mode on it even though it’s decent. Same with the melee ones, I just mostly use them in non-incarnon mode and everything dies anyway.