Nuke Builds Are Ruining Gameplay Enjoyment

[darklord122]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

I don't care how the rates change, I care that they tell us clearly just how undesirable most weapons in this game really are.

And what you're describing in bold about the Lato is what I want, not what we have. The Lato is currently worse than the Lato Vandal with a significant margin, not a slight margin. All things equal it's about three times stronger with better accuracy and a more responsive semi-auto fire rate. That's why most players obviously pick the Vandal over the base. But there are still players who choose the base over the Vandal anyways! Here are the usage rates for the Lato among L4 players, players who by definition have access to just about every weapon in the game:

Lato
0.0017639744337524697

Lato Vandal
0.004632203153449469

Despite the Vandal having triple the damage output in both regular and Incarnon forms, the base Lato still makes up about a quarter of all Lato usage for these players who have everything. This is true for the Lato, the Nukor, the Latron, and any other example you want to choose. Discerning players with access to everything are still choosing the worse version for some reason. Clearly, there's something beyond simple efficiency being considered when players pick their weapon. And this is good! What's not good is that the players who we know prefer the regular Lato over the Lato Vandal are handicapped significantly for no reason.

If the Lato Vandal was only maybe 50% stronger and not the current 300% stronger, then even if usage rates don't change at all at least those that continue to break the mould and try something different won't be so heavily punished for it. That's what I'm talking about. The usage statistics are just an indicator of what's going on, not some end goal.

 

Sure do wonder why the Lato, A starter weapon that all subsequent players have as an option to choose from when starting the game has such usages rates.
Such a mystery. Couldn't be also because the lato vandal is only accessible in elite sanctuary onslaught either where the minimum requirement to even use the weapon is at mastery 7. No cant possibly be.
The nukor having such usages stats when unlocked in basically all dojos except fresh ones and being fairly easy to craft. While the K-nukor relies on being master 5 with the war within completely cleared while simultaneously relying on rng roll's on liches. Wonder why the usage stats are the way they are.
The latron having low requirements to build in terms of materials and can be used within the first 12 hours of the game, Sure do wonder why that is. Why the wraith being locked to master 7 and the prime being pure rng surely has nothing to do with usage stats. No of course not.

You look at whats infront of you, Not the how nor why.

Your view is skewed, You want equality yet somehow things should not be equal. I never said you wanted weapons to be the exact same but you keep putting out arguments where the results basically end up at that conclusion. No-one is putting words in your mouth. And you want something yet again unattainable that no game has achieved. So good luck with that. But you'll continue to ignore that point seeing as it doesn't benefit you.

If players didn't pick the best options as a standard we wouldn't even be having this argument, The meta for weapons would basically not exist. Yet underutilized weapons and worse weapon variants are still on the lower end of the usage stats. I sure wonder how that is. And how nothing will change with your changes. The endgame will still exist that you oh so complain about and weapons usage stats will still go down.

👋 Good luck with your argument.

Edited February 13 by darklord122

[Arbitrary]

15 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Sure do wonder why the Lato, A starter weapon that all subsequent players have as an option to choose from when starting the game has such usages rates.
Such a mystery. Couldn't be also because the lato vandal is only accessible in elite sanctuary onslaught either where the minimum requirement to even use the weapon is at mastery 7. No cant possibly be.

You do realize that PublikDomin is talking about the usage stat at legendary 4 right? You know, the mastery rank that required you to get everything. Not just most of the things, everything.

These players aren’t picking base Lato because they don’t have the vandal

Edited February 13 by Arbitrary

[darklord122]

26 minutes ago, Arbitrary said:

You do realize that PublikDomin is talking about the usage stat at legendary 4 right? You know, the mastery rank that required you to get everything. Not just most of the things, everything.

These players aren’t picking base Lato because they don’t have the vandal

Doesn't change my point by much, If anything it still reinforced my point that players choose the better variant for game-play. He tried to argue that people pick the worst option anyway when there are other factors in usage stats.

So yes, They aren't picking the lato vandal just because they dont have it, But it still factors in on top of mastery grind.

Edited February 13 by darklord122

[PublikDomain]

47 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

Sure do wonder why the Lato, A starter weapon that all subsequent players have as an option to choose from when starting the game has such usages rates.
Such a mystery. Couldn't be also because the lato vandal is only accessible in elite sanctuary onslaught either where the minimum requirement to even use the weapon is at mastery 7. No cant possibly be.

9 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

So yes, The aren't pick the lato vandal because they dont have it

Gotta read what I'm saying, bud. As @Arbitrary points out (thanks), I was specifically talking about L4 players alone. L4 players who, in order to be L4, must have leveled every weapon in the game including the Lato Vandal. These people already have this weapon, there is no "but it's hard to get" or "they don't have it" to nitpick. They've already got it. There are people, at the highest heights of progress in the game, who have access to both, but still use the "worse" version. This is a fact.

Why do they pick it anyways?

That doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter why these players choose the Lato over the better-in-every-way Vandal that by definition they have also owned. All that matters that they do, as we know from officially collected and released statistics. And if people are going to use these weapons, then they might as well be strong when they do it too. Remember, ideally everybody gets to play the game. Not just the people that play with the guns that you like to play with. Everybody.

9 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

He tried to argue that people pick the worst option anyway when there are other factors in usage stats.

Because they do. The "other factors" don't matter, what matters is that they do it anyways. And what other factors? Mastery grind?

Quote

With Cross Platform Play, this aggregate covers usage data across all platforms combined from 01/01/2023 to 12/31/2023. The percentages presented track the Equip Time for Warframes and Weapons that were Rank 30 or higher. This omits time spent levelling up items for the first time.

The time spent grinding Mastery is specifically omitted from these stats!

Edited February 13 by PublikDomain

[Merkranire]

7 hours ago, Aldain said:

Who said I was that effective? I absolutely deny those allegations and all that is associated with them.

More often than not I'm the one just standing there while other people destroy the content, but when the gap does close (like my Archon Hunt yesterday) I get immense sastisfaction from being that person who by all accounts shouldn't be even half as effective as he's appearing to be.

I brought a Quellor to an Archon Hunt without it being a damage boosted weapon, I carry a Lex Prime (no Incarnon yet) around because I like semi-auto pistols, the most meta thing I probably carry on average is a 2h Nikana (the Azothane) spec'd for heavy attack spam.

I am not a content destroyer who deletes the tileset every three seconds, I just use what I like and do what I feel like doing and more often than not that winds up losing out to nuke frames or super meta boss deletion loadouts by a wide margin.

I'm a random schmuck whose most played frame is Excalibur Umbra because I don't care for whatever is the room clearing meta, if that's what you'd consider "destroying my own game" then I think you might have the bar set too low because I am anything but that.

Are you giving consideration to the level of content you’re doing and what you’re built for? Because if you’re built for Archons and then doing something lower than that, but you’re still wielding that Archon build, I’m sure you can guess what’s going to happen

[(XBOX)Obi Wan Dandobi]

Man people really do talk some bollox

[Merkranire]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I could go miles and miles away from an "SP build" and still get an enjoyable run out of Arbitrations. Your "build" is simply far far far far off from even that. It is... very likely... not even enjoyable on higher star chart planets, since it is just that low on producing damage.

No, it really doesnt rocket into crunchiness. A newbie will get enough mods to have a gun that kills better than anything their operator can provide for quite some time (the OP never actually comes out on top versus OG). Also "stop shooting Radiation-resistant things with a Radiation-built gun!" is hilarious, since the mobs of the other factions that are actually vulnerable to or non-resistant to radiation have so few enemies that are actually vulnerable or not-resistant to it, that even with the resistance of something like a charger, it still ends up with less eHP for a common mob. Meaning they are still the squishiest out of them all to try it on. Gas would still be too low damage and would do nothing versus the eximus where the build struggled with the OG.

Your build is a hindrance to multiplayer, since it cant hold its own ground in solo even. And "learning while solo" is something you should tell yourself, since clearly you have learned nothing because you still think you have a viable build. So you jump into multiplayer to get carried, so shouldnt care what others do or how fast they kill, since you yourself provide what could be equal to practically nothing. I mean ffs, your "build" struggles versus chargers. Nothing should struggle versus chargers, the whole idea with the infested is to mow them down Aliens+smart gun style as they just rush you. But you cant even kill those in a decently timely fashion.

If you cant understand what the invincible frame allowed me to check you are utterly clueless. It gave the highest uptime for producing damage with your PoS "build". So allowed it to show the highest potential damage output. So without that the gun is even worse of, since you'd have to move constantly, meaning far far less damage at that point. With a frame "built" by you for that "engagement" you seek you would very likely have no chance to complete a survival, since you have too little uptime, too few kills and too many mobs around to effectively make use of life support towers, since if you'd stop to interact you'd be instantly mauled, stomped and chewed by all those charges you failed to kill.

Which would not advance the objective at hand, or provide you with any of the things you need for the objective not to fail. You slowly taking down 1 enemy as all the rest are gunning fully at a defense objective or extractor just wont work very well. And the moment you kill that enemy you still have the rest to handle aswell, that will keep shooting like maniacs along with more spawning as you kill one. Some of these being eximus, some being drones (in the case of arbis) and so on. And in survival you'd get no life support drops and you'd have even less chance to interact with towers.

Also what advantage is there to a partially damaged enemy? There are no mechanical benefits to that in game like lowered accuracy, limping, incapacitation etc. Either it is alive no matter if it has 1 or 100% health, it still sends death your way from the hole of its thunder stick, just as accurate or inaccurate as before. You talk as if you think WF is real life where wounding an enemy can equal killing it for the sake of combat. Or maybe you played some other game with such mechanics and forgot you are on a WF forum?

But you clearly havent done it. Someone else in this thread did though and arrived to the same outcome, it being a worthelss "build" for the content you claimed it was built for. And "feeding someone a specific build" is what you did, since you specified it as "arbitration build". Doesnt get more specific than that. When someone sees that they will assume it will work, otherwise someone wouldnt refer to it that way. But this build isnt even suited for upper star chart levels. Which is without considering anything remotely close to high efficiency runs. This is when considering an acceptable run, and your "build" doesnt come close to acceptable.

I had the feeling you were in a minority, but you are a minority within the minority of a minority with your approach to the game. Because we arent just talking about going slightly slower for higher engagement, we are talking about practically stopping at a dead halt. It is best described as extremely absurd in a arpg/looter shooter. So no wonder you get upset over people destroying things when your idea of fun is that narrow.

I'm fairly sure you are speaking to yourself here, since you are extremely out of touch with the game. You arent even discussing low, mid or high level builds, you are talking about some very perverted and narrow idea that is a ghost of your mind. You're very like also a "do as I say not as I do", since you arent showing anything that implies that you've even tried your own "builds". Just alot of empty talk for some odd reason.

I wonder if your posting would be considered trolling, since it isnt productive nor beneficial to a new player that might actually look to the forums for help to progress.

Re-submitted since original changed so much

 

Then stick a damage mod on it. Like I said you could after you tried the build in good faith (which you failed at in a most expected way) that I can make use of where if it turned out I really was slowing down my team too much (and this is a whole general case across every multiplayer mission, mind you), I’d probably drop out since I’m already of limited use while still introducing an extra player’s worth of spawns and knowing I can’t push it any further, note down what might need adjusting, and consider beefing it up as well for the next attempt at cost to something I’d already slotted if it’s not something else across my kit that I could make a minor change to, without following in your footsteps and building like I’m going to jump into Steel Path for a #*!%ing Arbitrations

One. One damage mod. Take that free slot and capacity and consume it as necessary to install an extra damage mod instead of something like punchthrough or reload speed or whatever that versatile gun can make use of. You don’t need 7 damage mods to tackle Arbitrations. If you want it that bit easier, stick one damage mod onto that baseline and see what happens. Still struggling? Stick another, and understand that the more you load up on damage the higher you go until you’re out of range of the level of content you started in, with all the extra caveats that come with that like killing enemies way too fast and not bothering with damage type resistances. And suddenly you’re built for level 100 when you were aiming for level 60!

Edited February 13 by Merkranire

[Aldain]

2 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Are you giving consideration to the level of content you’re doing and what you’re built for? Because if you’re built for Archons and then doing something lower than that, but you’re still wielding that Archon build, I’m sure you can guess what’s going to happen

If by "built" you mean "Barely considered functional at said level" then yeah I'm giving consideration.

[Merkranire]

23 minutes ago, Aldain said:

If by "built" you mean "Barely considered functional at said level" then yeah I'm giving consideration.

Now see, I think that’s worth exploring, and not in the hyperbolic way Ervin’s doing; you and I know that “Functional” typically means “Insta-kills and invincibility” according to this community (see what I’m doing there?), but it doesn’t have to be that drastic.

How does it fare in solo play for the Archon?

Edited February 14 by Merkranire

[Aldain]

28 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

Now see, I think that’s worth exploring, and not in the hyperbolic way Ervin’s doing; you and I know that “Functional” typically means “Insta-kills and invincibility” according to this community (see what I’m doing there?), but it doesn’t have to be that drastic.

How does it fare in solo play for the Archon?

I wouldn't know, I don't solo Archons because unlike say Netracells, there's no counterincentive for me not to do them in a random group.

The only things I run solo are Duviri (I like to go at my own pace), Spy missions (because a huge number of people suck at them apparently), and a few other things like scanning for Kavat Gene codes and whatnot.

[Merkranire]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

I wouldn't know, I don't solo Archons because unlike say Netracells, there's no counterincentive for me not to do them in a random group.

The only things I run solo are Duviri (I like to go at my own pace), Spy missions (because a huge number of people suck at them apparently), and a few other things like scanning for Kavat Gene codes and whatnot.

How do you figure you’re barely functional at said level…? Even while solo it can get kind of tricky to get a sense with all the moving parts of abilities and energy management and movement/positioning and status effects and damage types and switching gear accordingly and objectives (Exterminate is a lot more lenient than, say, Mobile Defense because we can dictate how fights go in Exterminate with a lot more freedom when we only have to worry about ourselves) and whatnot; take that and combine it with multiplayer and the amount of moving parts gets cranked to 11 while content may or may not do things like dynamically change enemy health according to the amount of players when you jump into a mission with players who run the gamut between actually barely functional and way overkill.

You may surprise yourself and be nailing the survival and damage requirements that the content expects, but I’m thinking you’re comparing yourself to other players who may or may not be built for the content?

Edited February 14 by Merkranire

[Aldain]

51 minutes ago, Merkranire said:

How do you figure you’re barely functional at said level…? Even while solo it can get kind of tricky to get a sense with all the moving parts of abilities and energy management and movement/positioning and status effects and damage types and switching gear accordingly and objectives (Exterminate is a lot more lenient than, say, Mobile Defense because we can dictate how fights go in Exterminate with a lot more freedom when we only have to worry about ourselves) and whatnot; take that and combine it with multiplayer and the amount of moving parts gets cranked to 11 while content may or may not do things like dynamically change enemy health according to the amount of players when you jump into a mission with players who run the gamut between actually barely functional and way overkill.

You may surprise yourself and be nailing the survival and damage requirements that the content expects, but I’m thinking you’re comparing yourself to other players who may or may not be built for the content?

I'm pretty confident that it's in the "barely functional" category by virtue of the fact that I tend to take a few seconds to gun down a single heavy with aforementioned Quellor.

Depending on how much leeway I have, if I can just plant my feet and aim for the head that can go anywhere from 5-7 all the way to 15-20 if things are hectic and I'm having to bounce around like a madman to not become swiss cheese, never seen a single hit from the rapid fire go over ~10k, and that's usually a headshot with cold+Galvanized Aptitude amplifying it, the usual output is more like 4-6k.

Without some ramp up even a charge shot to the head won't down an Eximus in one hit, but even then I know there's plenty of weapons that can just eclipse that output entirely and chew though things like a hot knife through butter. The sad thing is that because I don't hit that aggressive damage level my damage on the Archons is usually not reduced by much compared to other weapons that get hit by the scaling much more harshly.

So yeah, having compared myself to others I've run into I would say that "barely functional" would be the right qualifier for that level of content, I've seen better and much faster bullet hoses and the crap Riven I have for the Quellor (only Multishot and Crit Damage at about 100% of each) is probably the only thing letting it even do what little it does at that level.

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, Aldain said:

I'm pretty confident that it's in the "barely functional" category by virtue of the fact that I tend to take a few seconds to gun down a single heavy with aforementioned Quellor.

Depending on how much leeway I have, if I can just plant my feet and aim for the head that can go anywhere from 5-7 all the way to 15-20 if things are hectic and I'm having to bounce around like a madman to not become swiss cheese, never seen a single hit from the rapid fire go over ~10k, and that's usually a headshot with cold+Galvanized Aptitude amplifying it, the usual output is more like 4-6k.

Without some ramp up even a charge shot to the head won't down an Eximus in one hit, but even then I know there's plenty of weapons that can just eclipse that output entirely and chew though things like a hot knife through butter. The sad thing is that because I don't hit that aggressive damage level my damage on the Archons is usually not reduced by much compared to other weapons that get hit by the scaling much more harshly.

So yeah, having compared myself to others I've run into I would say that "barely functional" would be the right qualifier for that level of content, I've seen better and much faster bullet hoses and the crap Riven I have for the Quellor (only Multishot and Crit Damage at about 100% of each) is probably the only thing letting it even do what little it does at that level.

I feel like there’s a lot to unpack here and a few points brought up that raises curiosity as to how the thing is innately designed versus how it’d built and what it’s shooting and what the expectation is, but I see that gleam of confidence in your eye. Your view of Damage Attenuation is definitely curious

I will just say to be careful about comparing yourself to others versus comparing yourself to the actual content you’re doing. I’ve seen one too many players get convinced that their builds are worthless because of some shift in the Meta despite the content itself not really changing much if at all

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Without some ramp up even a charge shot to the head won't down an Eximus in one hit,

Just on the offchance  you don't know, the charged shot does have a couple of tricks up its sleeve.  Forced Impact and slow fire rate, so Internal Bleeding is viable, and this has the potential for minimal ramp-up 1 triggerpull kills of eximus in base SP. (But not very useful if you like killing things with the autofire too.)  And multiplicative stacking between base damage multipliers and  Galvanized Aptitude.  So base damage bonuses and priming are more valuable than normal.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

No? To the meta users when they end up together with non-meta users. Duh. Isn't that the entire topic of discussion here?

That is what I ment considering the context of the part I quoted. So nothing will really change since AoE will still kaboom things instantly. Because we already have plenty of weapons with similar output to AoE but without the AoE function. So we can see what some simple buffs would achieve, or lack to achieve.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

For the exact same reason I prefer to use the Quellor and not the Tenet Tetra now: because you like it.

Which is a weapon with a special mechanic. Do we always need to spell out every single option in order for you to grasp the simple example made? My point is, the stats getting more similar wont matter to actual usage, since a gun with only 1 fire mode with still just be another gun with 1 fire mode. Hence the example of Tenet Tetra. I'm also fairly sure if I had said Quellor instead as the example you would have gone "For the exact same reason I prefer to use the X and not the Quellor..." since you have a hard time seeing things not 100% explained to you.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Or you could make fundamental changes to all mechanics, and leave the weapons functioning how they are. Y'know, like how DE made fundamental changes to ammo mechanics to attempt to curb AoE weapon usage. They didn't need to make the Tonkor a skin of the Penta, or make the Ogris a skin of the Bramma, did they? No, they just addressed a part of the underlying foundation that affects everything.

Contrary to what you say, you don't need to make fundamental changes to all weapons or their mechanics to balance. DE has shown this many times. You can tweak broad damage values, like DE has done with melee and Archguns, you can make changes to underlying mechanics like ammo and damage falloff, you can make changes to combat mechanics like Tennokai, etc.

And once you're done, if there's still a weapon or three that are out of line, then you can address those few weapons by themselves. Y'know, like DE did when changing individual weapons like the Bramma and Catchmoon. Did they need to make the Bramma and Catchmoon skins of each other, or skins of some other gun? Nope. So why would they here?

You'd only need to change the stats and mechanics of every weapon in the game if you were attempting to achieve some absurd, distorted caricature of what I'm saying. It's just hyperbole.

Because those guns are still significantly different from eachother in their specifc "perks". My point is, the weapons without "perks" wont be helped by improved stats since they are still just another vanilla gun. So for those weapons it will in reality come down to how they look or if they have a vastly superior stat distribution over the rest depending how even you want guns to be.

But it isnt about balance in itself. What you talk about isnt balance, it's normalization and homogenization removing practically all reasons for options, and it wont do anything when "perks" are still part of some weapons, like dealing AoE damage or comming with innate damage types and so on. So what you want will just be a rework that in the end solves nothing.

Because those are again fundamentally different weapons. The choice rests in how they deal damage, how they work etc. not their sheet damage. Which is all a buff to most of the less used weapons would be since they lack the unique mechanics that differentiate weapons. I'd understand your desire if you were saying something like "all weapons need an incarnon form" since it would let people that like the classic weapon use it that way due to increased stats of their prefered choice while also adding new mechanics to further increase the incentive to use them for other people that are more "meta" in their mindset.

And just buffing or changing the stats would be wasted work.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

How many times have you and I discussed this topic? How many times have I explained what I advocate directly to you in specific detail? It hasn't changed. If you've forgotten then maybe you've never been paying attention in the first place.

None that I can recall.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Then I misunderstood you. But in that case I'm not sure why you're saying what Outriders is anything at all like what I'm talking about? If Outriders has balanced weapons that anyone can use whenever they want, but then pushes players to only choose one or two weapons of them because of some class perk system, then it sounds to me like all their work balancing their weapons has been wasted and is being actively undermined by their other design decisions. If Outriders railroads you into only picking between one or two guns out of dozens because of perks, then that's just as bad as Warframe railroading you into one of a dozen guns out of hundreds because of stats. Sounds like both suck and should be improved.

It has everything to do with what you talk about unless you have a hard time picking up on what I refer to as "perks" in WF. The perks in Outriders is practically the WF mechanics of a weapon tied to a perk on the weapon, while the rest of the weapon is just a regular weapon. So if you want say "Bramma" in Outriders, then you pick the gun that has that perk and either use it if your build makes use of that type of gun or you subsume it so you can add it to the weapon your class uses that has the other perk you need. 

In WF if you want Bramma, well then you use Bramma. So since that "perk" is static in WF, buffing other weapon stats wont make them more used if people are after the specific mechanic that comes with Bramma or any other weapon that has a specific mechanic. Buffing stats will really only increase or shift the usage between weapons that dont have any specific additional mechanics. Which is why if you want to see buffs, ask for incarnon, since they also bring mechanics. Like how the mechanics on the incarnons we have were enough to push many away from regular AoE weapons. If something like Torid or Burston just got the +stats passive perks and not the specific incarnon modes, their use would be as low as before for the most part, since you'd have a decent AoE "cloud" gun and Burston would still just be an avarage burst rifle in a game that promotes AoE.

17 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

You continue to fail to get the point. Lighting round:

• No, weapons don't need to be perfectly equal. I haven't said this, you have. Again, this is just another one of your exaggerations.
• No, weapons that are equally powerful aren't "just skins of each other". This isn't true today, and wouldn't be true if weapons like the Veldt and Acrid and Velox were good too.
• Yes, there would still be a meta. Again, that's fine.
• Yes, people like you would continue to only use whatever's most meta and ignore most of the other content in the game. Again, that's fine. Other people with broader interests wouldn't.
• Yes, very little would change for people like you. Because it's not about you. It's about elevating the people who aren't you so they can play together with you on the same level while still using what they enjoy.
• What stops people from using what they enjoy now? The overall garbage performance of these items compared to other players they end up playing with. Duh.
• Why not use Rivens? Because Rivens are steeped in RNG, are inaccessible outside of player trade, and fail to address base stat deficiences. That's why Rivens failed to normalize weapons. Compare that to Incarnons, which are deterministic and actually do address base stats deficiencies, and have been a massive success in just the short while since they've been introduced.
• You not wanting to go back to your Tonbo even if it was buffed until it was good is fine. So what? No one cares. Someone else that likes the Tonbo for more than just its stats would. There are still some L4 players using the Tonbo today despite having access to every other better option in the game. And those players shouldn't suck just because you're upsetty spaghetti at the thought of them being almost as good as your Kripath/Lesion/Zar/whatever.

Exactly you didnt say that, I did. No one claimed you said it. I said it because it is the only realistic approach that would actually shift things. That or as I said adding incarnon to more weapons in order for them to also get new and useful perks/modes.

Of course it isnt true today. But it wouldnt matter if they were just skins when they are just generic gun 1, 2 and 3 eitherway. And it is like you are complete void to grasping what I'm trying to point out when you bring up 3 distinct weapons. What is so hard to understand with me saying that weapons with unique mechanics set them apart from the rest? Veldt, Acrid and Velox all have something that makes them unique in their choice. We have plenty of weapons were that is not the case, those generic weapons is what I'm talking about. That in order to increase there usage through increased or more narrow stat overall, the perks of other weapons would need to be removed aswell, or all those S#&$e weapons would need perks added to them to make them unique and give them a reason to be picked up instead of one with a perk that has the same damage and mechanics otherwise. For instance, giving the Penta stats more close to Tonkor, Zarr or Bramma would still see it go unused since it has bad mechanics tied to it in comparison to those 3.

And just that you claim rivens are innaccessible outside of trading is laughable. Sounds more like you want things handed to you on a platter. Also, how would your supposed buffs impact rivens? If all items turn out nearly equal from the start it would require every riven to be adjusted aswell since there would no longer be any actual power difference to justify 0 to 00000 dispos.

And those players dont suck while using the Tonbo. I think you missed my point. Tonbo is already strong enough to use if you have a riven for it, so there is no problem with the game atm for a low weapon such as that one. I moved to other weapons since they provide me more options. So unless you plan on changing Tonbo on a fundamental level, it will still have less options than those other weapons, even if it would be a good weapon, just as it is now. And as I asked, how would you deal with rivens. If Tonbo gets buffed to be more inline with other weapons, then the riven would need a degrade aswell to account for that. Which really would leave it in the same spot it is now in comparison to those other weapons atm. So it ends up being alot of work to practically circle around to where we are now, the difference is that rivens would be needed less, but also offer far less since the massive dispo difference between weapons would no longer be needed.

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, Merkranire said:

Then stick a damage mod on it. Like I said you could after you tried the build in good faith (which you failed at in a most expected way) that I can make use of where if it turned out I really was slowing down my team too much (and this is a whole general case across every multiplayer mission, mind you), I’d probably drop out since I’m already of limited use while still introducing an extra player’s worth of spawns and knowing I can’t push it any further, note down what might need adjusting, and consider beefing it up as well for the next attempt at cost to something I’d already slotted if it’s not something else across my kit that I could make a minor change to, without following in your footsteps and building like I’m going to jump into Steel Path for a #*!%ing Arbitrations

It was fully in good faith, since I gave the build every possible benefit it could get. I guess I could have scewed it horribly positively with a max strength Rhino or Chroma instead of going with a subsumed Roar. Not in good faith would be using less mods and claiming it didnt work, but I did the opposite, added more and it still didnt perform even decently.

However that isnt the issue at hand with your "build". The issue is you calling it a build made for a specific activity while throwing around how good your knowledge is regarding building properly and considerate towards other players. Yet it doesnt perform at all in the mode you specifically claim it is designed for, so your self proclaimed knowledge is a lie. You also show zero consideration for other players with how you talk, while also claiming others are inconsiderate to you. In the post quoted here you are perfectly fine with being the most inconsiderate out of the bunch by jumping in and experiement with others. Werent we supposed to be considerate towards even PuGers according to you in this very thread? Oh why yes, indeed that is what you said. But yet you are fine with jumping into a mode with a weapon so horribly underbuilt that all you end up doing is wasting the time for the players there, while also providing less that a new player would that hits up the mode for the first time. This all while raging on people that jump in "over-built", even though those players could actually help those new players when they end up with someone as inconsiderate as you by dealing with the extra targets you add to the mess while also pulling their own weight and filling whatever gaps the new player might have.

But nah! You instead decide to leave, likely not giving a rats ass if you are a host or not either. And if you do indeed care if you are the host, and dont wanna cause a migration, well then the rest of those players are #*!%ed if they are too new to have enough options to build to handle your slack. So it's picking between famine or plague at that point as you twiddle your thumbs doing jack squat. And then when you are done there, you do the same #*!%ing thing all over again to a new group as you slightly "improve" your already dedicated "arbitration build".

14 hours ago, Merkranire said:

One. One damage mod. Take that free slot and capacity and consume it as necessary to install an extra damage mod instead of something like punchthrough or reload speed or whatever that versatile gun can make use of. You don’t need 7 damage mods to tackle Arbitrations. If you want it that bit easier, stick one damage mod onto that baseline and see what happens. Still struggling? Stick another, and understand that the more you load up on damage the higher you go until you’re out of range of the level of content you started in, with all the extra caveats that come with that like killing enemies way too fast and not bothering with damage type resistances. And suddenly you’re built for level 100 when you were aiming for level 60!

Shouldnt be needed when you've already provided a build labeled as a build for a specific mode type. When it is labeled, it should work, otherwise stop claiming it is a build. I guess you confuse the Hel out of your friends irl when you come to their newly planned construction project, see a doorframe on a foundation of concrete and go "nice building man!".

[Aldain]

7 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

Just on the offchance  you don't know, the charged shot does have a couple of tricks up its sleeve.  Forced Impact and slow fire rate, so Internal Bleeding is viable, and this has the potential for minimal ramp-up 1 triggerpull kills of eximus in base SP. (But not very useful if you like killing things with the autofire too.)  And multiplicative stacking between base damage multipliers and  Galvanized Aptitude.  So base damage bonuses and priming are more valuable than normal.

I know about that foible, the issue more lies in that I'm too many forma deep to switch into that build sadly.

The build that I have at the moment is actually almost perfectly replicable for most people by swapping out the Riven for Hammer Shot more or less (it'll lose out on some Multishot but the crit damage multiplier will be mostly the same...and some extra status chance).

IIRC I'm pretty sure it's just Serration, Galv Chamber/Aptitude, two 60/60 mods (typically for Corrosive since somehow still don't have Rime Rounds), the Radiation Reload mod (to patch the terrible reload speed since I don't like the holster load style) the Riven(110% Multi+115~%Crit Damage)/Hammer Shot and I think Vital Sense or a flex slot, probably flex due to the Riven's Crit multiplier.

But that's why I say it's not that good of a build, because without the Galvanized mods (and to a lesser extent the mediocre Riven) it wouldn't be doing much at all, the only advantage the build I've made has is that due to being a 6 element gun (IPS+Corrosive/Cold/Rad) it can self prime more or less.

Edit: Point Strike, that's the last mod I use, not Vital Sense or a Flex slot.

Edited February 14 by Aldain

[PublikDomain]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is what I ment considering the context of the part I quoted. So nothing will really change since AoE will still kaboom things instantly. Because we already have plenty of weapons with similar output to AoE but without the AoE function. So we can see what some simple buffs would achieve, or lack to achieve.

Yes, AoE tools can "kaboom things instantly", and like you seem to understand this gives them a large advantage over single-target tools even if they have a similar output. So shouldn't single-target tools then be buffed to have a higher output than AoE? Since, y'know, you gotta aim them and they affect fewer targets? Just giving single-target weapons an equal output doesn't account for all of the "perks" that AoE have, which again it seems like you understand. So obviously single-target weapons would need an advantage of their own in order to be equally valuable, like killing enemies faster even if it's only one at a time. So why wouldn't things change if single-target weapons are given a few perks of their own to make them equally valuable picks compared to AoE?

There's also the issue of how AoE can "kaboom things instantly" throughout so much of the game in the first place, which is the bigger topic at hand within this thread. If you're allowed to "kaboom things instantly" with so many frames and weapons, then what is left for anyone else to do? This is exactly what DE was talking about when they said that AoE "leave[s] so little for others to do" and "can make squadmates feel ineffective", and undermines the ideal that "everybody gets a chance to play" while "increasing [the] difficulty in creating content that serves to challenge the Tenno".

So if single-target weapons are buffed to sit beyond AoE weapons, and difficult content is made harder to the point where AoE can't just "kaboom things instantly", then now both AoE and single-target tools can work equally in the same spaces and we as players can play the game together in content designed for a knowable standard of power.

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Which is a weapon with a special mechanic. Do we always need to spell out every single option in order for you to grasp the simple example made? My point is, the stats getting more similar wont matter to actual usage, since a gun with only 1 fire mode with still just be another gun with 1 fire mode. Hence the example of Tenet Tetra. I'm also fairly sure if I had said Quellor instead as the example you would have gone "For the exact same reason I prefer to use the X and not the Quellor..." since you have a hard time seeing things not 100% explained to you.

In the Quellor's case, I don't really use the alt-fire that much. I know, right? It's there, and it's nice, but it's not why I like the gun. Maybe I should have explained that better so you can understand. I like the Quellor for how it looks, and how it sounds, and how it reloads, and its big magazine, and how I can dakka for long periods of time without reloading. I like it so much I have a 3D printed model of my Khora holding one. The alt-fire is not why I like it so much. I like the Grinlok too. I like it so much I spent the time to get its Conclave skin. I like the Vipers as well, at least conceptually. Are those weapons featureless enough for you to understand what I'm saying? Is it really so hard for you to grasp the simple idea that people can like the guns they like for reasons other than some special mechanic or perk?

And like I say above, if you understand that a perk can be powerful enough to set a weapon ahead of others, why can't you understand that this can simply be accounted for when balancing? You say...

3 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

the weapons without "perks" wont be helped by improved stats since they are still just another vanilla gun

... but this is silly! If a weapon currently has no "perk" and is "just another vanilla gun", then can't such a weapon just get a perk like "does a little bit more damage"? Improving the stats is the "perk". Then it would have a "perk" to make it an equally valuable pick too. It isn't rocket science.

An given how we know that even simpler weapons continue to be used even by the L4s who have access to everything, this fine-grained balancing of perks probably isn't even necessary in the first place. It's fine if some weapons are "vanilla" even if you still wouldn't even acknowledge that they exist. Like I said before, others with a broader mindset would.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

What you talk about isnt balance, it's normalization and homogenization removing practically all reasons for options

Right, because you know what I'm saying better than I know what I'm saying. Maybe you really are a mind-reader? 🙄

What I talk about is balance, it's you that takes what I say to such an absurd extreme like "removing practically all reasons for options". I've told you before, and you've ignored it every time, that this is silly and unnecessary. This is something of your invention. This is made up fantasy of your creation. These are your ideas. Not mine. And the horrible boogieman consequences you come up with so you can have something to argue about are just that: more fantasy.

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

None that I can recall.

I can tell. You'll just have to do some reading if you'd like to know my specifics. I'm certainly not going to waste my time explaining them to you again here when you're not going to listen anyways.

Regarding Rivens, like, come on. Dispositions change every 3 months anyways. Why are you trying to making this an issue when it's already a normal process that's occurred for so many years? And yeah, I'm sure the Tonbo can be alright if you have a Riven. It's that big if that makes Rivens such a poor solution, and why even despite being in the game since 2016 they've never worked.

[xLaNn]

On 2024-01-19 at 2:38 PM, Zinxori- said:

Say you got yourself a shiny new Gotva Prime from the Twitch Prime rewards, and you were itching to try it out in a mission. You pull up a Exterminate Fissure mission on Public matchmaking, just to increase the chances of a good reward. However, inevitably, and as many of you witnessed I'm sure whether you've been playing for 5 days or 2 weeks, that IDIOTS with no consideration for the others in the squad, will bring some ridiculous "nuke build" to Exterminate mission and blast all the enemies to hell in like 2-3 casts, and the mission is over before you even aimed up your weapon.

To some this is probably fine, and I'll sound like a complainer, but at MR27 and playing since 2015, I've seen every decent "nuke build" from Mirage Simulor to stuff like Saryn 4th spam in the current age. In things like Defense missions where the time to finish can go up due to enemies being spread out everywhere, using a wide-range, powerful nuking setup is ABSOLUTELY VALID AND UNDERSTANDABLE. But in a simple Axi Exterminate mission??? C'mon let me just shoot my Gotva and leave happy. I know I cannot be the only player who feels this way, but I'm probably one of few who would actually make a whole forum post about it. I hope this reaches players and that it generates a healthy discussion on why Nuke Builds should be UNACCEPTABLE in a simple mission like an Exterminate. Have respect for your fellow Tenno and LET THEM PLAY THE GAME TOO, or you'll risk stepping on someone's toes, even if you don't know it, or didn't intend it that way.

Its not their fault, its the game's design fault for giving players the possibility to nuke an entire room without even having to aim at something. All abilities, or at least the ones that deal damage should be frontal only, so you should at least have to aim in the general direction of what you want to hit with it. 360° abilities are not only boring to use because they require 0 thought and skill but also they ruin the experience for everyone else, i don't know why they have them in the game at all.

[Merkranire]

7 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

It was fully in good faith, since I gave the build every possible benefit it could get. I guess I could have scewed it horribly positively with a max strength Rhino or Chroma instead of going with a subsumed Roar. Not in good faith would be using less mods and claiming it didnt work, but I did the opposite, added more and it still didnt perform even decently.

However that isnt the issue at hand with your "build". The issue is you calling it a build made for a specific activity while throwing around how good your knowledge is regarding building properly and considerate towards other players. Yet it doesnt perform at all in the mode you specifically claim it is designed for, so your self proclaimed knowledge is a lie. You also show zero consideration for other players with how you talk, while also claiming others are inconsiderate to you. In the post quoted here you are perfectly fine with being the most inconsiderate out of the bunch by jumping in and experiement with others. Werent we supposed to be considerate towards even PuGers according to you in this very thread? Oh why yes, indeed that is what you said. But yet you are fine with jumping into a mode with a weapon so horribly underbuilt that all you end up doing is wasting the time for the players there, while also providing less that a new player would that hits up the mode for the first time. This all while raging on people that jump in "over-built", even though those players could actually help those new players when they end up with someone as inconsiderate as you by dealing with the extra targets you add to the mess while also pulling their own weight and filling whatever gaps the new player might have.

But nah! You instead decide to leave, likely not giving a rats ass if you are a host or not either. And if you do indeed care if you are the host, and dont wanna cause a migration, well then the rest of those players are #*!%ed if they are too new to have enough options to build to handle your slack. So it's picking between famine or plague at that point as you twiddle your thumbs doing jack squat. And then when you are done there, you do the same #*!%ing thing all over again to a new group as you slightly "improve" your already dedicated "arbitration build".

You did not use the build in good faith since when you jumped into an actual mission with an invincible frame that result is skewed. Do you remember when I told you what specific frame to bring and how to build it? Because I sure don’t, because the mission combat has all this ebb and flow where things like status effects like CCing Radiation and wounded enemies tie into threat to the player and what on-the-fly decisionmaking, which you did away with! In good faith would be you trusting that the build is going to work and finding out its usecase!

Stop acting like the goal is to destroy everything with as little concern as possible, if that were the goal, I’d point you to some Argonak build guide aimed at SP! The goal is to find what the content asks for and take advantage of spare slots and capacity, which you seem to be struggling with the very notion of, not destroy it! The build performs if you know how to use it and aren’t shooting Infested and Overguard with it.

And I show zero consideration for you and players like you, ones who apparently know so much that they have to try and convince someone who’s been sidelined why the sidelining is actually a good thing while you spin my actions into some boogeyman troll coming for other player’s games. Oh yes, I’m putting in the effort to find these points so that I can do juuuuuuust enough that I could be considered helping, but in actuality, my glorious plan is to not help! Hah hah!

Obviously I’m going to give consideration to whether I’m host, obviously I’m going to reconsider that build and possibly err on the side of a bit more damage and/or survival than I normally would if jumping into multiplayer because I’m expecting them to go a few more rounds into levels beyond 60, the point all along has been I’m not sidelining my teammates because I’ve got an idea of what the content even asks for while you invent hyperbole about my motivations and actions in order to spin the argument like it’s a madman’s whim!

8 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Shouldnt be needed when you've already provided a build labeled as a build for a specific mode type. When it is labeled, it should work, otherwise stop claiming it is a build. I guess you confuse the Hel out of your friends irl when you come to their newly planned construction project, see a doorframe on a foundation of concrete and go "nice building man!".

Since you seem to suck at the game, put that damage mod on. The build is a baseline, go customise it using remaining capacity and slots or change the baseline as you see fit; maybe you’d like to use something other than Radiation

 

Dude, I don’t know how many times I have to keep pointing out the free capacity and slots, but they’re there. Why do you think they’re there, eh? Why do you think I haven’t auto-installed mods for you?

[darklord122]

On 2024-02-13 at 10:58 PM, PublikDomain said:

Gotta read what I'm saying, bud. As @Arbitrary points out (thanks), I was specifically talking about L4 players alone. L4 players who, in order to be L4, must have leveled every weapon in the game including the Lato Vandal. These people already have this weapon, there is no "but it's hard to get" or "they don't have it" to nitpick. They've already got it. There are people, at the highest heights of progress in the game, who have access to both, but still use the "worse" version. This is a fact.

Why do they pick it anyways?

That doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter why these players choose the Lato over the better-in-every-way Vandal that by definition they have also owned. All that matters that they do, as we know from officially collected and released statistics. And if people are going to use these weapons, then they might as well be strong when they do it too. Remember, ideally everybody gets to play the game. Not just the people that play with the guns that you like to play with. Everybody.

Because they do. The "other factors" don't matter, what matters is that they do it anyways. And what other factors? Mastery grind?

 

The usage does matter when your argument hinges on usage stats and rates.
And usage can be in every form whether from testing rivens, Mod builds, Arcanes and now even more-so Incarnons.
Since the usage stats do not show when someone has acquired a weapon nor a variant outside of usage in specific mastery ranks the reason for usage can be basically anything.
Even something as subsequently simple as owning the lato before the vandal version or any weapon and its concurrent variant. Especially since this game has a constant RNG to fight against even when you are in the higher levels of the game. Everyone does not acquire everything in a specific order so the usage can be because of genuinely a multitude of variables.

Even in any of these usage case scenarios my point still stands that the majority still pick the better variant. Why? Who knows but logically any gamer will go for efficiency especially in a game like this where high strength and fast grinding is highly encouraged. Otherwise this problem of yours would literally not exist.

Circumstantial use doesn't change my point. And yet again even with an uplift to both of these the vandal would still come out on top or any other weapon with subsequent variants that offer better stats and effects. The only way that would not happen however is if all variants did the exact same thing and that would see no points in variants being a thing in the first place.
These points have been brought to you multiple times but you are so blinded by your agenda that you don't see that you either want everything to stand equal thus player choice is removed in the game of choices, Or you do not and the problems you speak of will always persist. And no, I'm not putting words in your mouth. These are the most logical conclusions to have unless you actually put forth more ideas for how anything you perceive will be achieved.
No-one has said either that the underutilized weapons and their variants shouldn't be uplifted. But we can still point out the flaws in your arguments in that weapons would still always see under-utilization while simultaneously still supporting buffs for underutilized weapons.

Your problem will still exist, The problem that no game has been able to fix in its entirety in terms of balance as Ive said a multitude of times already.

So this will be my final note for this discussion.

Now you can feel free to keep arguing but my point will still stand.

And unless warframe becomes the first game ever to have a perfect balance across all of its weapons and never falter when new weapons, variants, rivens, mods, incarnons and arcanes are introduced, it will always stand.

Edited February 15 by darklord122

[darklord122]

5 hours ago, Merkranire said:

You did not use the build in good faith since when you jumped into an actual mission with an invincible frame that result is skewed. Do you remember when I told you what specific frame to bring and how to build it? Because I sure don’t, because the mission combat has all this ebb and flow where things like status effects like CCing Radiation and wounded enemies tie into threat to the player and what on-the-fly decisionmaking, which you did away with! In good faith would be you trusting that the build is going to work and finding out its usecase!

Stop acting like the goal is to destroy everything with as little concern as possible, if that were the goal, I’d point you to some Argonak build guide aimed at SP! The goal is to find what the content asks for and take advantage of spare slots and capacity, which you seem to be struggling with the very notion of, not destroy it! The build performs if you know how to use it and aren’t shooting Infested and Overguard with it.

And I show zero consideration for you and players like you, ones who apparently know so much that they have to try and convince someone who’s been sidelined why the sidelining is actually a good thing while you spin my actions into some boogeyman troll coming for other player’s games. Oh yes, I’m putting in the effort to find these points so that I can do juuuuuuust enough that I could be considered helping, but in actuality, my glorious plan is to not help! Hah hah!

Obviously I’m going to give consideration to whether I’m host, obviously I’m going to reconsider that build and possibly err on the side of a bit more damage and/or survival than I normally would if jumping into multiplayer because I’m expecting them to go a few more rounds into levels beyond 60, the point all along has been I’m not sidelining my teammates because I’ve got an idea of what the content even asks for while you invent hyperbole about my motivations and actions in order to spin the argument like it’s a madman’s whim!

Since you seem to suck at the game, put that damage mod on. The build is a baseline, go customise it using remaining capacity and slots or change the baseline as you see fit; maybe you’d like to use something other than Radiation

 

Dude, I don’t know how many times I have to keep pointing out the free capacity and slots, but they’re there. Why do you think they’re there, eh? Why do you think I haven’t auto-installed mods for you?

You point out free capacity slots, But we are not allowed to use them how we wish.
We are not allowed to bring specific warframe's any player has accessible to as that would ruin the experience and skew build results, Even without a strong build, Revenant would still be more or less invincible. Sounds fair for anyone wanting to try and good survivable frame, even new players.
We believe you in you saying that you are not sidelining other players.
However building for specific levels in an infinitely level growing mode is you only sidelining yourself. Lets say you build to get to lets say level 80. Well what if they want to go above a hundred? What will you do? Stay and drag them down? Or leave and let 3 players hold something 4 players should? In both cases your view of consideration would be out the window. Prediction based builds do not work in this game and again everyone is allowed to build and play as they wish and that includes high level people.

Now your consideration for me I could not care less for, As the label you've put on me do not coincide with the players who do in-fact level the entire map. But as ive said thats cant possibly be happening all the time for you, thats impossible, I however am still allowed to bring my high leveled build into any mission I want to.

You seem very hung up on radiation for some reason. I could bring a full gas weapon and still outperform you to where you will complain. And its fairly easy to do even without rivens and maybe some low level arcanes. So even fairly new players or mid tier players can get stuck with your perceived notion of fairness.

Now since you are also stuck on infested because the arbitration I ran happened to have them. Ill give you some more information. Your build struggles even harder against corpus and grineer, Grineer especially. Double that on top with overguard and its borderline impossible to kill them with your baseline build. If I where to add just baseline mods and no primed mods, No rivens and no arcanes, It still would struggle to kill enemies above 90-100. At that point its not tactical nor fun, As if it takes anyone a subsequently long time in any survival based or defense based mode then you would more than likely fail the objective. Its fine in exterminate, But at that point its just tedious, Working but very tedious for most of the playerbase.

I think you perceive other players not insta-killing as being on your builds level, When I highly doubt that,
In-fact I even think they might even be doing most of the job for you especially when hearing how you build your weapons. Feel free to prove me wrong and tell me that most players know to work with your build. Because newsflash. They do not. And never will unless you squad with people specifically for that.
Or unless you are telling me that you scream in the in mission chat Hey my build only goes to level 90 and I need you all to be on the same level. Even then I doubt most players would listen to that argument.

So how am I nor the rest of high leveled players being inconsiderate when our builds work for much longer than yours and cover way more ground. In-fact it allows us to keep going way more in missions and giving out more rewards. On more than just a few occasions ive carried people further than they can with their builds, just because I can. They receive more at the end and all is well. And I can guarantee im not the only high level person who does this mind you. Its not like strong builds = soulless. While I cant speak for those players who exist that ruin things, its certainly not all of them.

Your effort in doing these specific builds ultimately is pointless when the rest of your squad is just another RNG number of builds and any of them could be outperforming any of the others builds. You don't know. And its unfair for them for you to assume they should be on your level. As its their choice and right to play the game as well and they do not have to play with your builds to enjoy themselves. But as we have seen when you see someone kill something just too fast then you proceed to feel alienated. You can't control what other people do. No matter what level they are.

And ultimately that will always be a problem for you. No matter if a player is considerate towards you or not.
As all it takes for you to go over the edge, Is a small variable of mods and arcanes. And all players have access to that.
 

Edited February 15 by darklord122

[Merkranire]

26 minutes ago, darklord122 said:

You point out free capacity slots, But we are not allowed to use them how we wish.
We are not allowed to bring specific warframe's any player has accessible to as that would ruin the experience and skew build results, Even without a strong build, Revenant would still be more or less invincible. Sounds fair for anyone wanting to try and good survivable frame, even new players.
We believe you in you saying that you are not sidelining other players.
However building for specific levels in an infinitely level growing mode is you only sidelining yourself. Lets say you build to get to lets say level 80. Well what if they want to go above a hundred? What will you do? Stay and drag them down? Or leave and let 3 players hold something 4 players should? In both cases your view of consideration would be out the window. Prediction based builds do not work in this game and again everyone is allowed to build and play as they wish and that includes high level people.

Now your consideration for me I could not care less for, As the label you've put on me do not coincide with the players who do in-fact level the entire map. But as ive said thats cant possibly be happening all the time for you, thats impossible, I however am still allowed to bring my high leveled build into any mission I want to.

You seem very hung up on radiation for some reason. I could bring a full gas weapon and still outperform you to where you will complain. And its fairly easy to do even without rivens and maybe some low level arcanes. So even fairly new players or mid tier players can get stuck with your perceived notion of fairness.

Now since you are also stuck on infested because the arbitration I ran happened to have them. Ill give you some more information. Your build struggles even harder against corpus and grineer, Grineer especially. Double that on top with overguard and its borderline impossible to kill them with your baseline build. If I where to add just baseline mods and no primed mods, No rivens and no arcanes, It still would struggle to kill enemies above 90-100. At that point its not tactical nor fun, As if it takes anyone a subsequently long time in any survival based or defense based mode then you would more than likely fail the objective. Its fine in exterminate, But at that point its just tedious, Working but very tedious for most of the playerbase.

I think you perceive other players not insta-killing as being on your builds level, When I highly doubt that,
In-fact I even think they might even be doing most of the job for you especially when hearing how you build your weapons. Feel free to prove me wrong and tell me that most players know to work with your build. Because newsflash. They do not. And never will unless you squad with people specifically for that.
Or unless you are telling me that you scream in the in mission chat Hey my build only goes to level 90 and I need you all to be on the same level. Even then I doubt most players would listen to that argument.

So how am I nor the rest of high leveled players being inconsiderate when our builds work for much longer than yours and cover way more ground. In-fact it allows us to keep going way more in missions and giving out more rewards. On more than just a few occasions ive carried people further than they can with their builds, just because I can. They receive more at the end and all is well. And I can guarantee im not the only high level person who does this mind you. Its not like strong builds = soulless. While I cant speak for those players who exist that ruin things, its certainly not all of them.

Your effort in doing these specific builds ultimately is pointless when the rest of your squad is just another RNG number of builds and any of them could be outperforming any of the others builds. You don't know. And its unfair for them for you to assume they should be on your level. As its their choice and right to play the game as well and they do not have to play with your builds to enjoy themselves. But as we have seen when you see someone kill something just too fast then you proceed to feel alienated. You can't control what other people do. No matter what level they are.

And ultimately that will always be a problem for you. No matter if a player is considerate towards you or not.
As all it takes for you to go over the edge, Is a small variable of mods and arcanes. And all players have access to that.
 

Ugh

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 6 minutos, Merkranire dijo:

Ugh

I fell off my chair, got up and fell again when I saw such an incredible argument.

[Merkranire]

Just now, --Leyenda-yight6 said:

I fell off my chair, got up and fell again when I saw such an incredible argument.

I’m done