I think incarnon form charge generation should change a bit.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

Charging incarnons isn't super hard or anything, let me get that out of the way before the "skill issue" comments start.  It's just kind of clunky due to several factors.  I think it would be far more comfortable for most players if kills counted toward the charge, just not as much, and obviously multishot wouldn't benefit unless it was a headshot.  

[Tiltskillet]

+1.

Although I'd add that charge input and ouput  amounts really need some rebalancing on top of that.. 

Burston:  each charge produces 30 Incarnon rounds

Torid: each charge produces 34 Inarnon rounds

Bronco: each charge produces 0.5 Incarnon rounds

And that's leaving aside the difficulty of charging which is far, far more difficult on the Bronco.

[StrawberrySparrow]

I disagree. I think if you want overwhelming power, you can do the minimal amount of work it takes to learn to headshot enemies. It's more rewarding that way in my opinion.

Or, just use the Torid.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

2 hours ago, Tiltskillet said:

+1.

Although I'd add that charge input and ouput  amounts really need some rebalancing on top of that.. 

Burston:  each charge produces 30 Incarnon rounds

Torid: each charge produces 34 Inarnon rounds

Bronco: each charge produces 0.5 Incarnon rounds

And that's leaving aside the difficulty of charging which is far, far more difficult on the Bronco.

On top of that, ammo amounts make no sense.  It feels like it takes about as long to charge a vasto incarnon as it does a toxocyst incarnon, but the vasto gets like, what?  6 bursts?  Or is it 4?  While the toxocyst just pump out cluster rounds like there's no tomorrow.  I knew I wasn't going to really be into vasto's incarnon form, so I was mostly into it for the evolutions.  But it needs to be so much better.  And Burston gets tons of ammo and it's very strong, but Braton barely gets any while honestly being about the same or maybe even worse than burston.  They should have the same amount of ammo, or at least closer.

Meanwhile there's the incarnons like the vasto, or the Soma, where I mostly went into it for the evolutions.  Some of them got really unimaginative.  It's all either auto shotgun or big projectile.  That's what makes things like the toxocyst stand out so much.

 

54 minutes ago, StrawberrySparrow said:

I disagree. I think if you want overwhelming power, you can do the minimal amount of work it takes to learn to headshot enemies. It's more rewarding that way in my opinion.

Or, just use the Torid.

You could do the minimal amount of effort and read what's there.  I can headshot enemies.  I said it wasn't some super hard thing.  I literally already addressed this non-argument before you even made the comment.  I actually had a whole paragraph regarding the jankiness of headshots in this game, due to enemy speed, twitchiness, bad hit boxes, and some enemies literally not having a hitbox that works, or have one that's barely accessible, but deleted it for brevity.

[StrawberrySparrow]

You're right. It is a non argument.

I'm not arguing, I'm disagreeing.

Also, I wasn't saying you didn't know how to land headshots, I was speaking generally. I think GENERALLY SPEAKING, the AVERAGE PERSON should be willing to learn to headshot because I think it's more engaging that way. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Also, don't assume that I'm being hostile just because I disagreed. I didn't mean to be sarcastic or rude, I spoke genuinely. But anyway,..

I've had no issues headshotting any enemies other than some of the murmur faction enemies. I would love to see that paragraph you wrote so I have a better understanding about what specific jank you're talking about.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

46 minutes ago, StrawberrySparrow said:

You're right. It is a non argument.

I'm not arguing, I'm disagreeing.

Also, I wasn't saying you didn't know how to land headshots, I was speaking generally. I think GENERALLY SPEAKING, the AVERAGE PERSON should be willing to learn to headshot because I think it's more engaging that way. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Also, don't assume that I'm being hostile just because I disagreed. I didn't mean to be sarcastic or rude, I spoke genuinely. But anyway,..

I've had no issues headshotting any enemies other than some of the murmur faction enemies. I would love to see that paragraph you wrote so I have a better understanding about what specific jank you're talking about.

You asked for it lol.

Several years ago, I went to get the "No Brainer" achievement, and more recently, did build testing with Deadhead arcanes.  From those experiences, relative to experiences in many other games, headshots are very unreliable in this game, unless you're under fairly ideal circumstances.

Problem one is that many enemies have huge portions of their head hitbox obscured.  As a quick aside, it has never made sense to me that you could have punchthrough, and hit an enemy in a place where the round would punchthrough and exit out of an enemy's face, and it doesn't count as a headshot.  But that not making sense is also my answer when people argue with the following.  Grineer have so much bulk on them that a huge portion of their head is obscured.  Yes, that armor in reality would protect them, but it would NOT protect them if a round went through it and hit them in the head anyway.  It's not just grineer armor though.  Several enemies in the infested faction and the new Murmur faction either have a heavily obscured head hitbox, or don't seem to have one at all.  In that same vein, there's no clarity on what will count and not count.  The arm vials on murmur minimechs count as a headshot for charging.  But the weak point on a moa doesn't, because it has to be the head, which is not the weak point, and is very hard to actually make out from their model.  

There's enemy movement, which is also insanely fast relative to other games.  Enemies turn on a dime, and twitch all over the place, changing directions rapidly.  They also flail about from various procs, like heat and impact.  This doesn't make headshots impossible, but it does make it much more frustrating.  Combine that with having hit boxes obscured and it becomes compound annoyance.  It makes headshots start to feel like a chore on some enemies.  

Then there's the real jank.  During my time trying to get the No Brainer achievement, I found a lot of just straight up bad hitboxes.  I was in an Ivara, using both prowl and sleep arrows.  I could literally stand in front of an enemy, slowly line up a headshot perfectly on a stock still enemy and have it not count.  The only thing I could figure is multishot.  Even removing all multishot, it still did it.  Sometimes head hitboxes just don't work, or aren't lined up with what makes sense.  The very top of a corpus helmet, where there is no actual head, counts.  Quite often I would clip the top of a Butcher's head and it would not count.  But Multishot is still an issue.  Especially on shotguns or low accuracy weapons.  It makes charging an incarnon very difficult in "normal" content, because a lot of these weapons, when fully built will 1 shot an enemy even without all the projectiles from MS hitting.  That means you can be lined up perfectly, have a slightly off-center projectile from MS hit something that sticks out further than the enemy head first, have the enemy die before the centered round hits, and get zero headshot charges despite a well lined up shot.  Even if all rounds were to hit, MS doesn't count because it only counts the rounds that actually did damage.  Which makes charging these weapons slow in even mid level content.  And while you might not need the incarnon form if enemies are dying that fast, the point is fun, and the incarnon forms are fun.  Not being able to use them because you have to headshot half the map is tedious.

And unless you're some kind of pro-gamer, the average person will take just a little longer to line up a headshot on a quick moving enemy than a center mass shot.  And in that time, someone with a Bramma or a bunch of horses or a melee weapon with a 12m range will come through and wipe the thing that you were a split second from shooting in the face.

I DO charge my incarnon weapons reliably.  I do it every run, because they're my current favorites.  But it can really feel like a chore sometimes because of all this.

Edited January 27 by (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan

[Tiltskillet]

4 hours ago, StrawberrySparrow said:

I disagree. I think if you want overwhelming power, you can do the minimal amount of work it takes to learn to headshot enemies. It's more rewarding that way in my opinion.

Or, just use the Torid.

For me, as long as a reasonably skilled headhunter can be more efficient than bodyshots in a reasonable spread of content, I think it's good to have the alternative ways to charge up.  If nothing else, it's an accessibility issue.  People who aren't going to be able to hit headshots, whether because of a disability, using a controller, or a mobile device, should still be able to access a variety of Incarnon modes.   IMO, these  are too fun to restrict too much.  

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

42 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

using a controller

While I agree with what you're saying...  Y'all really got it out for us on console.  The trash talk is real lol.

[Tiltskillet]

37 minutes ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

While I agree with what you're saying...  Y'all really got it out for us on console.  The trash talk is real lol.

Not at all my intent.  I'm basing it mainly on comments I've seen from some (not all, obviously) controller-users about headshot mechanics.  The remainder is from  imagining how terrible I'd  be if I had to use one for headshots in this game.

 

[StrawberrySparrow]

I play with a controller, and I don't have issues landing headshots at all. The aim assist is quite good in Warframe (though I wish I could adjust it)

Sorry for not replying for so long, I fell asleep and like many hours passed

[Aldain]

I've been playing Warframe for a long time, and I still have no idea where to shoot for headshots on most Infested.

[(XBOX)K1jker]

vor 46 Minuten schrieb StrawberrySparrow:

 The aim assist is quite good in Warframe 

You're full of it, Warframes aim assist is the worst aim assist in any game I've ever played since the 90s. 

I literally had to turn it off to be able to actually hit something productive. How's that considered good? There's early 2000's  games pulling a better assist than Warframe.

--

But to stay on topic, yes, it won't hurt if normal kills partly charged it. Just don't make it like 3 kills max it, which would be overboard.

Edited January 28 by (XBOX)K1jker

[Tiltskillet]

7 hours ago, Aldain said:

I've been playing Warframe for a long time, and I still have no idea where to shoot for headshots on most Infested.

I wish I  could easily diagram them out for you.  Personally I'd say a general rule of thumb is to shoot what looks most like a (very ugly) face, or where a face would be on a humanoid.  A deceptive one is the charger, as the Grineer head underneath isn't actually a headshot target, it's the face on the front, as if it was a Kubrow.  

Mutalist Osprey types don't have heads (even though regular Ospreys do) nor does the Jugulus.

Their  movement and dangle-y bits do tend to make Infested harder to land aimed headshots on than the other classic factions.  And their relative fragility means it's not as valuable.   I only learned them from playing Lanka Loki builds and the like.

[Oraxin]

On 2024-01-27 at 3:17 PM, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

There's enemy movement, which is also insanely fast relative to other games.  Enemies turn on a dime, and twitch all over the place, changing directions rapidly.  They also flail about from various procs, like heat and impact.  This doesn't make headshots impossible, but it does make it much more frustrating.  Combine that with having hit boxes obscured and it becomes compound annoyance.  It makes headshots start to feel like a chore on some enemies.  

Imo, incarnons are fine as they are. Headshots are a basic skill not only in this game but all shooters in general. As someone who uses them on a daily basis, enemies don't turn as fast as you think. Once you get used to the timing its fairly easy to land headshots. Not to mention some warframes require you to headshot like Harrow.

Another option would be to use gloom as it slows them to the point of getting easy headshots. Or an ability/melee that can stun.

You could also use the Scourge Prime. Its trait gives everything in 15m a headshot attracter debuff for 3s every 20 sec. You don't even need to aim just shoot in the general direction and watch the incarnon charge go from 0 to full in seconds.

[Xzorn]

If anything the max charge values should be more rewarding for the head-shot weapons.

I'm not particularly a fan of the transform mechanic either. Mostly because doing most actions will halt it.
There's also pretty solid weapons like Latron which get ruined by the dumb AoE stagger changes.

I picked up Vasto as one of my last Incarnons to grab and I just don't see it. It's so clunky and gets a few shots.
Much like Zylok it feels like one of those weapons that's better off not morphing.