Netracells are frustrating

[Misgenesis]

I am actually quite surprised by how easy it is to solo when its got shards in its reward pool, easier than archon hunts even. Wish it gave rep though.

Edited February 6 by Misgenesis

[Xzorn]

Spoiler

56 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

If you can mass proc status Xata is a great form of crowd control. What can't shoot you can't kill you...as easily.

I really like xata on a 79% range Banshee. Since silence doesn't stagger eximus anymore so I can proc xata on them and remove the threat long enough to kill priority targets. Base range feels like a little too much but narrow minded + stretch is the sweet spot imo. It's a super fast active melee focused playstyle that I enjoy. Stagger>prime>close the distance and melee kill.

I have wisp's helminth over protea's 3 on one of my builds. Protea is one of those frames I really want to like but can't find a build that really meshes with my playstyle. I can get close but i always put her down and move on to other things. I think she could really shine with some aoe armor strip, maybe something like pillage on her 4 with precision intensify and cast every 4th ability. Sounds like too much micro managing rotations though. Maybe mass proc corrosive with 2x green shards for full strip. I'll figure something out eventually. 

 

I have the same issue with Protea. I want to like her so much. I don't even mind the rewind but due to Shield Gating with her 1st ability it's kinda pointless. I run 145% Range on Banshee. I don't generally melee. Just jump around like a loon with cast speed on her Resonance / Silence. I only run QT on her. If you really wana push the effort. I did a level 900 Circuit with her last week without being downed. My old endurance runner instincts kicked in.

I was thinking Pillage on Banshee in place of her best way to die 4th ability. She's got the Power for it at 13x Sonar.
Keeps me from having to put another Defensive mod on too.

Glad I'm not the only one who figured Rift Surge was a good option for Protea though. She's so weird.

[RichardKam]

Very high difficulty^TM lmao.

Put it this way. Consider it as nothing more than a Tier 4 bounty, with a chance of getting archon shards.

 

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

I run 145% Range on Banshee. ... Just jump around like a loon with cast speed on her Resonance / Silence.

.

 

[Waeleto]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz said:

You have the choice to play solo.  The game literally gives you this option.  It's not an asinine concept.  

This is a weird comment ngl

I'm sorry for trying to have fun with other people, truly my fault 
(maybe the game needs to make it more obvious to casual players than you need to kill in the red circle ?)

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

5 minutes ago, Waeleto said:

I'm sorry for trying to have fun with other people, truly my fault 
(maybe the game needs to make it more obvious to casual players than you need to kill in the red circle ?)

No one is saying you HAVE to play solo.

The point is that selecting an option that gives you random teammates and then taking umbrage in the forums when random results are achieved will not garner much sympathy. 

Especially when there are proven methods to avoid said outcome, such as forming your own team or playing solo.

[Berzerkules]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I have the same issue with Protea. I want to like her so much. I don't even mind the rewind but due to Shield Gating with her 1st ability it's kinda pointless. I run 145% Range on Banshee. I don't generally melee. Just jump around like a loon with cast speed on her Resonance / Silence. I only run QT on her. If you really wana push the effort. I did a level 900 Circuit with her last week without being downed. My old endurance runner instincts kicked in.

I was thinking Pillage on Banshee in place of her best way to die 4th ability. She's got the Power for it at 13x Sonar.
Keeps me from having to put another Defensive mod on too.

Glad I'm not the only one who figured Rift Surge was a good option for Protea though. She's so weird.

I've never really really been able to turn off that endurance mindset once i jumped into the deep end. Every build has to scale to infinity unless it's for very specific unrelated purposes. 

Before the eximus rework I had several Banshee builds that I really enjoyed. My favorite was Condemn(over her 4 of course) because it was great to lockdown enemies before sonic boom rag dolled them out of melee range. It also reset shield gate incase I didn't kill enemies before they recovered from silence stagger. My panic button followed by the you shouldn't have fd with me button. Eximus just don't care now so it's kinda dead build. 

Breach surge is a great ability, I'm probably biased since I've played a lot of Wisp. She's my go to idk what I want to play frame. Chill relaxed just kill stuff anywhere frame. I don't go stupid high strength though, if you use her kit the hp/regen isn't needed and attack speed is too much imo. It's actually hard for me to watch other people play Wisp, dump all stats in strength/duration and neglect her 2/3 and still die because they rely on a single ability to carry them. 

35 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

.

 

Against infest it is the way 

Everywhere else Banshee is a melee frame with 79% range...100% max😝

[Tiltskillet]

48 minutes ago, Berzerkules said:

Everywhere else Banshee is a melee frame with 79% range...100% max

These days I'm -mostly- at 130 or 145% even when I'm doing pure melee, only occasionally pulling out the sub-100% Savage build.  But I'm not playing anything for long longer than 40 minutes, except the very occasional Circuit.

I'm going to try Xata with the low range build though, even if I'm a little sad the wiki says Influence can't spread void status.

[Berzerkules]

18 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

These days I'm -mostly- at 130 or 145% even when I'm doing pure melee, only occasionally pulling out the sub-100% Savage build.  But I'm not playing anything for long longer than 40 minutes, except the very occasional Circuit.

I'm going to try Xata with the low range build though, even if I'm a little sad the wiki says Influence can't spread void status.

I thought it did but I'm probably just spamming my primers and proccing void on everything. Or maybe the range on my melee is half the radius of influence and everything is getting proc. I really do like melee and therefore utility primers as well. 

Epitaph and silence were made for each other. Cold procs to prolong that stagger and give her some breathing room. Love it. 

Edit: 

I figured it out. I've been playing Nova almost exclusively for the last week or so and M Prime does some funky things when enemies explode. Weird stuff with things like acid shells, vulcan blitz and argonak. Xata void bubble is also getting spread and my build has 19.9m radius on M Prime explosion which is really close to the 20m radius of influence. 

Edited February 6 by Berzerkules

[taiiat]

8 hours ago, Xzorn said:

can you check my math on that a single Tau Emerald +3 Corrosive calculation?

You're one of the few people I remember from back in the day who was doing math stuff much as I did.

RIP Players Helping Players. Am I right?

uhh, you're referring to 3x Corrosive Projection, and 1 Corrosive Shard, i presume?

is Corrosive Projection Multiplicative with Corrosive Status? or Additive?
3 Corrosive Projections is pretty overkill for Green stripping, wasn't it? i thought it was 1 Green Shard and Corrosive Projection would strip.

i don't know how these things interact since removing Armor only matters in Endurance and i can't be bothered to do Endurance anymore. i never care about weakening Armor thesedays(and haven't for Years, even the Bosses tend to not matter since we end up hitting Damage Caps on them with or without Armor so w/e), i just shoot things with rainbows and Kill them through their Armor.
 

[Xzorn]

@Berzerkules  It still works well long as you have room. Sonic Boom did take a dive thanks to Overguard though. If I saw myself about to land near enemies I'd fire it off and just keep jumping. Now if you land near an Eximus you're in trouble. My Banshee is airborne more than Zephyr =D

I think they bugged M Prime explosions. I've seen reports of it absorbing damage intake for it's final explosion.

 

@taiiat No CP actually.

All different sources of armor reduction are multiplicative. Even the first proc of Corrosive isn't additive with consecutive procs. So the idea was just to make the most of the two big chonker ones. Even a single CP with 13 stack isn't enough to fully strip.

I was curious if by adding the +3 Tau they actually added the highest DPS increase option against armor for many frames.

One CP "should" be this.

Armor after reduction = (1 - 50%) × [1 - (20% + 6% × Number of Corrosive stacks)] * (CPx1)
(1 - 50%) × [1 - (20% + 6% × 13)] * (1 - 18%)  =
(0.5) * (1 - 0.98) * (1 - 0.18) = 0.082%

The engine used to always round down from what I remember so this made me question if I was doing the new math right.

I've been steering away from CP cuz it does so little now. My Saryn uses Brief Respite cuz Shield Gate, why not.
She doesn't even have any shield mods but it doesn't matter much.

[tucker_d_dawg]

21 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

DE are never going to do that. If you make Netracells too rewarding it'll end up invalidating other sources like Archon Hunts. People have been skipping the Kahl missions for that very reason, despite having a guaranteed shard available in Chipper's wares. 

People skip kahl because the missions suck - a novelty the first time you do each, then generally annoying AF the 100th time.  Also, since there was no mechanism to merge non-tau to tau, and there was no combining to new colors, it also lowered the value of a normal shard.  Now that you can combine, I'd bet a few more ppl suffer through Kahl - I know I did them every week when released, until I could stand no more then stopped entirely.  Now that combining is a thing, I have started to do them a bit more often (not every week because I hate them too much to even suffer through that, but maybe every 2/3 weeks)

As for Netracell rewards:

• No one (with any sense at least) would want a normal melee arcane or adapter as they are both bird obtainable, and the normal melees are also whisper drops etc..  Do some bounties and you'll be swimming in them, with a guarantee to purchase ones you're rng doesn't provide.
• Some want the legendary arcanes - at least up until they have a full set at which point that too will be undesirable.
• Most want the shard, and between the number of frames we have * 5 per frame + new frames getting release + mixing (with no undo) to purple/orange/green there is almost a limitless need for shards.

Because the appetite for shards is (or should be by players) so much higher than everything else, my suggestion would be

• Make it farmable.  Guaranteed normal, chance at Tau (if they allow a 4->1 conversion to tau, they can remove the Tau from the drop or make it really low chance) + the arcane trash (since its farmable, this can be one of (adapter, legendary, normal))
• Then, because its farmable, they would need to change the shard removal/replacement mechanism:
  1) For bile, you can remove a shard (leaving NO shard in its place).  The shard is DESTROYED - lost, gone.
  2) for no bile cost, you can REPLACE a shard with another.  The shard you replaced is DESTROYED, lost gone.
  3) keep the no-refund mechanic on mixing up new colors
  4) a 4-1 ratio conversion on non-tau=>tau (no-refund)

Edited February 6 by tucker_d_dawg

[Venus-Venera]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Waeleto:

I'm sorry for trying to have fun with other people, truly my fault 
(maybe the game needs to make it more obvious to casual players than you need to kill in the red circle ?)

I don't want to and can't play Warframe solo. Because it's fun with other people?!=!=! at least to me.
So all the really short runs are something special.

There are advantages like railjack or duviri, where everything actually becomes much easier solo. But unfortunately the game doesn't have enough action and adventure for solo gameplay. because simply compare Doom 2016 with a solo mission from Warframe. The game is super cheap and I enjoy playing through it every few years. because it's just epic.

But in Warframe I want to have the other players in the group. Even if they leave the group after the run and hardly write anything... for me they are something special...

[Skoomaseller]

18 hours ago, Hexerin said:

People skipped Kahl because it was a normal shard with no chance to be tauforged. It had nothing to do with "other options being more efficient" or whatever nonsense you're tripping on. With the upcoming implementation of fusing shards into tauforge, Kahl engagement will jump back up because that normal shard every week is now valuable for those fusions.

Netracells being actually worth doing (guaranteed shard, chance for tauforge) wouldn't change people's engagement with other sources, they'd just add Netracells to their engagement patterns. Archon Hunts give a guaranteed tauforge every 5th week at the latest (generally averages to the 3rd week), so would still be worth doing as well.

Incorrect. The enemy has to be in the circle, the player's location is irrelevant. You can easily see this by the giant energy trail that goes from the defeated enemy to the defense system's tower. Enemies that don't count, don't produce a trail.

not to mention netracell gameplay (aka normal warframe gameplay loop) is much better than Veilbreaker. Seriously whose bright idea was it to make Kahl missions repeat ad nauseam? 

[taiiat]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

The engine used to always round down from what I remember so this made me question if I was doing the new math right.

there's no changes on that that i'm aware of - the rounding was just always on the actual Armor value, not the Percentage. so getting to 0.49 actual Armor would round down, but 0.49% Armor would just be Armor/204.

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

No CP actually.

All different sources of armor reduction are multiplicative. Even the first proc of Corrosive isn't additive with consecutive procs. So the idea was just to make the most of the two big chonker ones. Even a single CP with 13 stack isn't enough to fully strip.

I was curious if by adding the +3 Tau they actually added the highest DPS increase option against armor for many frames.

oh, then yeah they basically did. 13 Corrosive Status will be about as close to 0 Armor as you can get without hitting 0%. you might be able to get closer with a low strength anti-Armor Ability, but that's too fiddly for me to ever consider doing it.

 

 

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I've been steering away from CP cuz it does so little now. My Saryn uses Brief Respite cuz Shield Gate, why not.
She doesn't even have any shield mods but it doesn't matter much.

the only appropriate Saryn is one stacking 3x Elemental buffs to become the modern form of rainbow Damage :^)
whether that be Nourish, Xata's Whisper, or one of the other Elements, more preference than anything. going without Nourish is fine enough i think, i just Mod Viral on most of my Weapons to cover that, letting me pick a different Element that's harder to get. i go with Void so that i have consistent performance against normal Enemies and Eximus, but i couldn't discount one choosing to add Radiation or something. or just doing Roar for the obvious strength (esp with Toxin Damage Shard, since those Shards are all Multiplicative).

[SneakyErvin]

23 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

DE are never going to do that. If you make Netracells too rewarding it'll end up invalidating other sources like Archon Hunts. People have been skipping the Kahl missions for that very reason, despite having a guaranteed shard available in Chipper's wares. 

But it wouldnt invalidate other venues that yield shards, since one isnt mutually exclusive to the other. And with the upcoming additions there will be even more reason to run all possible content that rewards the shards. And as @quxierimples, the shards would be random in color. So Kahl and Archons would still provide the color you actually seek as an incentive if you need more than the incentive of simply getting more shards to use for fusions.

I'll go ahead and do a Nelson "Ha-ha! points finger" at those that have ignored Kahl. People did tell them not to skip since they have no possible way to know what changes might come to the system. And lo and behold, what happened!? Oh more additions to the system that makes use of excess shards. Who wudda thunk dat? Even Nostradamus saw that outcome back in the day.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

3 hours ago, tucker_d_dawg said:

People skip kahl because the missions suck

Whose to say people don't feel the same way about Archon Hunts. Especially when defense ends up being one of the random choices. The Lith node on Earth makes me want to strangle myself with my mouse cable. 

[helioth137]

On 2024-02-05 at 11:11 AM, quxier said:

To be honest they should give Archon shards guaranted - people are looking for shards after all. There is some chance for archons to be Tau, maybe make it like Archon hunts - 5 runs and you get Tau.

In addition you get arcanes, melee adapters and maybe something else.

yup, that sounds solid, would help people to catch up too. 

 

[RichardKam]

2024/2/6 AM12点19分 , Ace-Bounty-Hunter 说:

DE are never going to do that. If you make Netracells too rewarding it'll end up invalidating other sources like Archon Hunts. People have been skipping the Kahl missions for that very reason, despite having a guaranteed shard available in Chipper's wares. 

DE are never going to do that, not because it will invalidate other sources, but simply because archon shard acquisition was designed to be slow since day one.

We have had this kind of discussion all the way back to the first day of archon hunt. People keep saying "why only once per week?" "why I cannot farm all day?" "It is too slow" etc etc etc. All these can be boiled down to "why archon shard acquisition was so slow", and the answer is "they are designed to be slow".

The only reason why netracell includes archon shards as potential rewards (which does not make any sense except eternalism^TM) is because of shard fusion and the future tau fusion. The game gives us more options to consume archon shards, so it also gives us more options to acquire them. Simple check and balance. End of story. If people propose 100% chance of archon shard in netracell, it will go back to once per week mission like archon hunt because acquisition probability must be offset by frequency in order to keep the end result constant.

Archon shard acquisition will become more trivial only when it was being powercreep, or when DE introduces even more options to use them - I don't know, archon shard on companion? 

_{And people called 4-to-1 tau fusion a win. How cute.}

[Greysmog]

On 2024-02-05 at 7:44 PM, Xzorn said:

  Hide contents

 

I have the same issue with Protea. I want to like her so much. I don't even mind the rewind but due to Shield Gating with her 1st ability it's kinda pointless. I run 145% Range on Banshee. I don't generally melee. Just jump around like a loon with cast speed on her Resonance / Silence. I only run QT on her. If you really wana push the effort. I did a level 900 Circuit with her last week without being downed. My old endurance runner instincts kicked in.

I was thinking Pillage on Banshee in place of her best way to die 4th ability. She's got the Power for it at 13x Sonar.
Keeps me from having to put another Defensive mod on too.

Glad I'm not the only one who figured Rift Surge was a good option for Protea though. She's so weird.

I think her 4 really is just out of place in her kit, even with the Augment it just feels really bad and doesn't make much sense as a "refund" of sorts when it's so easy to stay supplied from her 3.

Maybe if they just went with a shorter duration, a higher damage conversion and a big boost to the attack speed of her abilities (so faster gun firing, more tics from her 1 and so on) it might work out better. Skip the weird rewind animation and make it instant while keeping the protection aspect of it, you get better Regen on the orbs, a faster drop rate from her 3 and so on. Make it more of a fast forward ability.

You'd probably want to make the buff a flat amount so you can't go crazy with Strength or neuter it with Efficiency builds, but that's just my two cents.

Edited February 7 by Greysmog

[--Leyenda-yight6]

hace 9 horas, RichardKam dijo:

The only reason why netracell includes archon shards as potential rewards (which does not make any sense except eternalism^TM)

The original loid said that Albrecht obtained the fragments from defeated archons in the ancient war, with which he also discovered the fusion of the violet, emerald and topaz fragments.

[PR1D3]

On 2024-02-06 at 7:51 PM, RichardKam said:

DE are never going to do that, not because it will invalidate other sources, but simply because archon shard acquisition was designed to be slow since day one.

We have had this kind of discussion all the way back to the first day of archon hunt. People keep saying "why only once per week?" "why I cannot farm all day?" "It is too slow" etc etc etc. All these can be boiled down to "why archon shard acquisition was so slow", and the answer is "they are designed to be slow".

The only reason why netracell includes archon shards as potential rewards (which does not make any sense except eternalism^TM) is because of shard fusion and the future tau fusion. The game gives us more options to consume archon shards, so it also gives us more options to acquire them. Simple check and balance. End of story. If people propose 100% chance of archon shard in netracell, it will go back to once per week mission like archon hunt because acquisition probability must be offset by frequency in order to keep the end result constant.

Archon shard acquisition will become more trivial only when it was being powercreep, or when DE introduces even more options to use them - I don't know, archon shard on companion? 

_{And people called 4-to-1 tau fusion a win. How cute.}

This. This right here. My sentiments exactly. It's really that simple.