Mesmer Skin should be nerfed

[(PSN)FrDiabloFr]

13 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Get off your high horse. What an asinine response.

1. Your statement about Pablo is already pointless, as frames already surpass it. Baruuk gets 97% DR with his "oWn KiT OnLy" (no armor). 95% of that is almost near infinite and basically passive.
2. There are numerous survivability abilities/mechanics that are better than 99% DR. Arguing where the needle should fall is pointless when you can straight up not take damage in the first place. Loki, Ash, Octavia, Ivara, Voruna, helminth Quiver, Zephyr, Valkyr, the slew of invulnerability gates, etc...
3. You can not ignore the fact the meta content back then was way easier when it comes to comparing balancing decisions.
4. You seem to think that pressing 2 buttons on Trinity is some "massive micromanaging feat" to give her an exception to the "90% DR rule".... Do you even know how the 99% DR solo Trinity worked? The DR scaled with how much health you were missing.
   1. So you had to be at 2 health to get the full buff, which you couldn't do without Quick Thinking.
   2. Which means you had to utilize self damage to reliably get it.
   3. It also meant there were windows where you had no DR.
   4. It didn't work in coop, because everyone in Blessing's range had to be at 2 health.
   5. And this is the same 10 second base duration Blessing you were complaining about above.

Agreed, sounds like a pressing button skill issue.

[KitMeHarder]

5 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Doesn't change the fact Rev is braindead.

Doesn't change the fact that countless other things are "braindead" when it comes to any content that matters. Before everyone jumped on the Rev bandwagon, all the level cap runners were using Ash. 

8 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

That's the one point everyone begging DE not to nerf MS seem to dodge. Curious innit bruv.

Yet you've not addressed all the other frames that can basically do the same thing in 99% of content (all frames with Quiver).

And no one on the other side of the argument is addressing this because it's blatantly obvious that Rev is not some anomaly. Far from it.

12 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

If as a player you can turn on godmode an simply never die, no matter what happens, that's a design flaw.

It's nullification like literally any other frame and literally any other role. And unless you're using extremely meta weapons, you will quickly lose stacks (especially in endurance).

You do realize (especially in solo) any frame with Quiver and a sentinel is "braindead godmode" all the way to level cap, right? And that's just the method any frame can use.

15 minutes ago, Fred_Avant_2019 said:

Take Shield gating and Overguard gate for instance, both of these will have you constantly casting abilities left and right to stay alive.

Because we never spam abilities in this game, right?

-----------------

 

Also, your fixation with spam-style gates has no bearing on countless frames. Numerous frames will tank SP just with the passive EHP regen you get from just playing them.

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Get off your high horse. What an asinine response.

1. Your statement about Pablo is already pointless, as frames already surpass it. Baruuk gets 97% DR with his "oWn KiT OnLy" (no armor). 95% of that is almost near infinite and basically passive.
2. There are numerous survivability abilities/mechanics that are better than 99% DR. Arguing where the needle should fall is pointless when you can straight up not take damage in the first place. Loki, Ash, Octavia, Ivara, Voruna, helminth Quiver, Zephyr, Valkyr, the slew of invulnerability gates, etc...
3. You can not ignore the fact the meta content back then was way easier when it comes to comparing balancing decisions.
4. You seem to think that pressing 2 buttons on Trinity is some "massive micromanaging feat" to give her an exception to the "90% DR rule".... Do you even know how the 99% DR solo Trinity worked? The DR scaled with how much health you were missing.
   1. So you had to be at 2 health to get the full buff, which you couldn't do without Quick Thinking.
   2. Which means you had to utilize self damage to reliably get it.
   3. It also meant there were windows where you had no DR.
   4. It didn't work in coop, because everyone in Blessing's range had to be at 2 health.
   5. And this is the same 10 second base duration Blessing you were complaining about above.

So you're just looking to rant, you're not actually interested in having a good faith discussion. So with that, I'm done responding to you on this.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

Why is everybody arguing back and forth instead of just mentioning "Valkyr and Hysteria"?

That's the death of the "Revenant is the only one who can/is" arguments in as little as 3 words. It doesn't even require bulletpoints or screenshots or anything. Dead on arrival by default.

Literal invincibility regarding both damage and status effects, one of the top 2 exalted weapons, you can mod the power to drain very little energy and has innate Life Steal which isn't even used because of the aforementioned literal invincibility. I can't imagine anyone being silly enough to try to argue about the Energy Drain as the only possible way you could be affected by that is if you're regularly an AFK player. And Valkyr has Warcry on top of that, giving armor/speed increase to the frame and speed decrease to enemies.

But yeah, my bad, you folks get back to arguing how Revenant is the only frame with a broken invincibility mechanic. The only one.

[KitMeHarder]

33 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

you're not actually interested in having a good faith discussion.

Says the dude who's first response to someone was an attempt to question their intelligence.

Don't dish it if you can't take it.

[quxier]

12 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

Literally "press to be immortal" with zero effort. Don't get me wrong, Revenant is a good Warframe but:

1. Trinity with 99% Damage Reduction was nerfed;
2. Indestructible Frost Snowglobe was nerfed;
3. Overguard limit was added (for Frost and Styanax augments);
4. ...

So why does such overpowered ability still exist? In fact, Revenant can make an entire team immortal using Mesmer Shield.

My suggestion is pretty simple:

1. Reduce maximum charges to 1 (not affected by mods);
2. Increase overall speed cast;
3. Increase energy cost to 100;
4. Add 3s (not affected by mods) invulnerability after losing all charges and 6s cooldown (affected by duration mods and can be reduced to 3s);
5. While invulnerable, all hits stun enemies and open them for his Enthrall;
6. Mesmer skin can be casted while Danse Macabre is active;
7. While Danse Macabre is active, energy cost reduced to 50*

Mesmer Shield:

1. Nearby allies get Mesmer Skin effect

Conclusion:

With these changes you can still be immortal but at least you need to put in some effort. E.g you can reduce cooldown to 3s and max your shields to get 2.5s shield-gate, so only 0.5s will be dangerous for you.

 

Thoughts?

So, every 3 or so seconds you need to waste another 100 energy. Good luck with that silly thing. Our game doesn't last for, I don't know, 10 seconds.

[Venefik]

 That is because Eximus must be a threat, except for Revenant. Standing still and face tanking through anything that can't nullify your skills is obviously genious gameplay, but cc?

 DID YOU DARE TO SAY CROWD CONTROL? UNFORGIVABLE! SUMMON THE VENOMOUS HYEKKA EXIMUS SQUAD NOW!

 

[_GoodLuck_]

9 hours ago, quxier said:

So, every 3 or so seconds you need to waste another 100 energy. Good luck with that silly thing. Our game doesn't last for, I don't know, 10 seconds.

Every 6s seconds (works like Rolling Guard). Efficiency mods are joke for you?

My suggestion - my opinion. If you can suggest something better and balanced (and not braindead) do it.

[Okaazkul]

Il y a 10 heures, (PSN)MYKK678 a dit :

Why is everybody arguing back and forth instead of just mentioning "Valkyr and Hysteria"?

That's the death of the "Revenant is the only one who can/is" arguments in as little as 3 words. It doesn't even require bulletpoints or screenshots or anything. Dead on arrival by default.

Literal invincibility regarding both damage and status effects, one of the top 2 exalted weapons, you can mod the power to drain very little energy and has innate Life Steal which isn't even used because of the aforementioned literal invincibility. I can't imagine anyone being silly enough to try to argue about the Energy Drain as the only possible way you could be affected by that is if you're regularly an AFK player. And Valkyr has Warcry on top of that, giving armor/speed increase to the frame and speed decrease to enemies.

But yeah, my bad, you folks get back to arguing how Revenant is the only frame with a broken invincibility mechanic. The only one.

Because you're comparing orange and apple. Valkyr's Hysteria is balanced compare to Mesmer Skin because :

• You have an energy drain during Hysteria, meaning you can't use Energy Nexus or Zenurik to regenerate energy during Hysteria. The only way to regain energy in this case is to take an energy orb or Hunter Adrenaline. The last one don't really work because you need to take damage and, well the all point was to take none so...
• Hysteria lock into a weapon. I don't believe you when you says it's one of the top 2 of exalted weapon in a world when Titania and Baruuk exist. I don't consider her claws to be bad, but the point is you're locked into melee and you have no easy way to kill an enemy in the air or a Nullifier.
• When the ability ends, if an enemy is in a certains range, you take a certains proportion of all the damage you ignored during Hysteria. The problem is, because you're locked into melee, teh chance of enemies being in the range is technically higher, so if you don't manage you're ability correctly, you can be one-shot by those absorbed damage.

Revenant have none of that. He can use all of his weapons, he can regenerate energy even when he have some Mesmer Skin stacks and there is no disadvantage to use it.

[quxier]

2 hours ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

12 hours ago, quxier said:

So, every 3 or so seconds you need to waste another 100 energy. Good luck with that silly thing. Our game doesn't last for, I don't know, 10 seconds.

Every 6s seconds (works like Rolling Guard). Efficiency mods are joke for you?

My suggestion - my opinion. If you can suggest something better and balanced (and not braindead) do it.

But it's no more balanced/brainedead. You just slap all the duration/efficiency/strength/wathever, add another immortality. If it's work it's just mesmer skin with extra steps. If it doesn't work then move on to next ability.

If it's going to be just mesmer with extra steps then I would prefer it to be current version.

[Petergeist00]

On 2024-02-12 at 12:10 PM, _GoodLuck_ said:

• Trinity with 99% Damage Reduction was nerfed;
• Indestructible Frost Snowglobe was nerfed;

Old game balancing choices that are no longer relevant imo, the game evolved where things like that wouldn't be broken.

 

 

On 2024-02-12 at 12:10 PM, _GoodLuck_ said:

Overguard limit was added (for Frost and Styanax augments);

they can keep regen it, making them virtually immortal for the 99% of the game.

Honestly i don't see a good reason to nerf Mesmer Skin, Revenant is.. only good at tanking and is a good beginner warframe, remove it and he only has mediocre CC, mediocre HP% dmg and a 4th ability that basically screams "i'm the helminth slot!". why does it bother you so much? also i believe that comparing Valkyr Hysteria to Mesmer Skin is wrong. Valkyr is a very old warframe and her rework was so many years ago and DE had a different vision on how to balance warframe, again things changed and it's not relevant anymore.

The Proof of what i'm saying is literally Dagath, with enough duration and with the help of shield gating and rolling guard but still you can stay immortal forever, with your I frames exceeding cooldowns of her 3rd ability .

Edited February 13 by Petergeist00

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, Okaazkul said:

Because you're comparing orange and apple. Valkyr's Hysteria is balanced compare to Mesmer Skin because :

• You have an energy drain during Hysteria, meaning you can't use Energy Nexus or Zenurik to regenerate energy during Hysteria. The only way to regain energy in this case is to take an energy orb or Hunter Adrenaline. The last one don't really work because you need to take damage and, well the all point was to take none so...
• Hysteria lock into a weapon. I don't believe you when you says it's one of the top 2 of exalted weapon in a world when Titania and Baruuk exist. I don't consider her claws to be bad, but the point is you're locked into melee and you have no easy way to kill an enemy in the air or a Nullifier.
• When the ability ends, if an enemy is in a certains range, you take a certains proportion of all the damage you ignored during Hysteria. The problem is, because you're locked into melee, teh chance of enemies being in the range is technically higher, so if you don't manage you're ability correctly, you can be one-shot by those absorbed damage.

Revenant have none of that. He can use all of his weapons, he can regenerate energy even when he have some Mesmer Skin stacks and there is no disadvantage to use it.

You've never used Valkyr have you?

You can pretty easily turn the power on and off in between hordes of enemies so the first point is dead, you aren't "locked into melee" either as you can use your guns while it's active at any point so there dies the second point, and why anyone would turn the power off while standing beside enemies in the first place is just a weird idea to begin with so the third point makes a hattrick.

And yes, Valkyrs slide attack definitely makes it one of the best exalted weapons available, whether you want to believe it or not. I'd suggest playing around as Valkyr a bit before trying to bring up any further points.

[_GoodLuck_]

57 minutes ago, Petergeist00 said:

they can keep regen it, making them virtually immortal for the 99% of the game

Have you tried to play against 200+ levels or higher? I lost 100k overguard after getting single hit from an eximus (400lvl) in SP Chain mode. Basically it's just for getting extra 0.5s I frame, so there's no reason in cap. If someone is trying to get 1kk overguard playing against 30-40 lvl, it's ludicrous

 

1 hour ago, Petergeist00 said:

and a 4th ability that basically screams "i'm the helminth slot!"

This one is pretty strong when you reach level cap, why do think so?

[Petergeist00]

1 hour ago, _GoodLuck_ said:

This one is pretty strong when you reach level cap, why do think so?

i do level cap runs, honestly i never found that ability useful after levels 300? (maybe even lower?) am i missing something?

Edited February 13 by Petergeist00

[(XBOX)Exaldragoon]

7 hours ago, Okaazkul said:

Because you're comparing orange and apple. Valkyr's Hysteria is balanced compare to Mesmer Skin because :

• You have an energy drain during Hysteria, meaning you can't use Energy Nexus or Zenurik to regenerate energy during Hysteria. The only way to regain energy in this case is to take an energy orb or Hunter Adrenaline. The last one don't really work because you need to take damage and, well the all point was to take none so...
• Hysteria lock into a weapon. I don't believe you when you says it's one of the top 2 of exalted weapon in a world when Titania and Baruuk exist. I don't consider her claws to be bad, but the point is you're locked into melee and you have no easy way to kill an enemy in the air or a Nullifier.
• When the ability ends, if an enemy is in a certains range, you take a certains proportion of all the damage you ignored during Hysteria. The problem is, because you're locked into melee, teh chance of enemies being in the range is technically higher, so if you don't manage you're ability correctly, you can be one-shot by those absorbed damage.

Revenant have none of that. He can use all of his weapons, he can regenerate energy even when he have some Mesmer Skin stacks and there is no disadvantage to use it.

I really do think that hysteria is not balanced being a valkyr main myself. imagine putting Equilibrium on valkyr along with flow and having synth deconstruct on a dirigia. at that point i can have my hysteria up 24/7 because i just made unlimited energy for myself regardless of energy drain meaning i am invincible 24/7 and am doing a ton of damage on top of that.

[Raikh]

Survivability is such a mess overall that even if Mesmer Skin is a very silly ability in its current form I don't think its worth singling out just because its a bit more effortless than some other things. In part also because its the only thing Revenant has going for him. Nerfing Mesmer Skin doesn't make immortal frames go away, it just moves him to the trashcan section in particular w/o substantial changes to his kit coming on top.

If survivability was looked at across the game as a whole and changed in a way that its earned but accessible across the board, sure Mesmer Skin is on the hit list. But till that happens I see it as a game state issue, not a Revenant issue. Revenant is a symptom of an issue, not the cause, plain and simple.

 

[Okaazkul]

Il y a 20 heures, (PSN)MYKK678 a dit :

You've never used Valkyr have you?

You can pretty easily turn the power on and off in between hordes of enemies so the first point is dead, you aren't "locked into melee" either as you can use your guns while it's active at any point so there dies the second point, and why anyone would turn the power off while standing beside enemies in the first place is just a weird idea to begin with so the third point makes a hattrick.

And yes, Valkyrs slide attack definitely makes it one of the best exalted weapons available, whether you want to believe it or not. I'd suggest playing around as Valkyr a bit before trying to bring up any further points.

Well, last time I seriously used Valkyr was like more than 5 years ago, so you right by thinking my knowlegde of her is a little rusty.

 

Il y a 15 heures, (XBOX)Exaldragoon a dit :

I really do think that hysteria is not balanced being a valkyr main myself. imagine putting Equilibrium on valkyr along with flow and having synth deconstruct on a dirigia. at that point i can have my hysteria up 24/7 because i just made unlimited energy for myself regardless of energy drain meaning i am invincible 24/7 and am doing a ton of damage on top of that.

Hum, maybe Valkyr can work very well with Voruna's ability. I will try that, thanks for the advise

[(PSN)Pablogamer585]

As the Nº1 Revenant hater myself, friends who play with me can confirm this if necessary, I will add to this conversation by redirecting everyone's attention to a not-so recent change that happened to all frames, and that imo is extremely important in the case of Revenant for the sake of balancing out his Mesmer Skin: shields.

Revenant and Revenant Prime have some the highest shield capacity of all frames in the game, Prime being only second to Hildryn as a matter of fact, at 925.
With Primed Redirection, this goes as high as 2590. Now, I'm of the belief that limiting shield gating to 2'5s at 1250 shields isn't bad, but isn't enough for everyone.
Protea gets double-length shield gating thanks to her satellite drone, and Hildryn gets her 3.5 seconds due to her passive, but why stop there?

Revenant, Styanax and Harrow are prime examples of why the new shield rework + Primed Redirection & shield regen mods is just excellent, I personally subsumed off Final Stand from my Styanax since I find it meh and don't really enjoy throwing spears continuously as my only source of survivability, plus Rally Point grants shields to allies on assist so screw Overguard.
Point is, maybe make it even higher for those frames that can achieve higher shields, which aren't that many.
Even Atlas has great base shields for a health tanking frame... 🤨

Then, how would I nerf Revenant so people start building towards his shields instead of just pure strength + a damage helminth all the time, so that I don't eventually get sent to a mental asylum?
Making it a 90% DR ability for shields, but that can prevent oneshots to health with a fixed amount of charges.

Every hit player takes, deals 90% less damage to those massive shields, charges aren't consumed in said case.
If it's to health though, you have a maximum of 4 charges with 1 second of iframes that can be modded with your ability duration too, so that you can work towards recovering those shields. Mesmer shield grants the same effects to all allies, pets & NPCs included.

For the sake of also making more parts of Revenant's kit more used, and trying to force players to build for something more than just duration + strength, and into the frame's kit, not [redacted] helminth damage boosting which I'm sick of, Mesmer Skin could emit a pulse like does Nourish to put enemies to sleep & ready to be Enthralled, based on ability range, instead of just the one enemy that hit you. Said pulse would only happen on health hits.
On shields, it'll only stun the one enemy that attacked you, with the same cooldown as it has now, while on health, it'll pulse once per charge to give some extra evasion in order to recover those shields. Range could be base 7m radius so that building for range is great, while not, bad.

This way, there are more builds for him than just Rolling Guard + Max Strength + Energy + same old helminth, and you have to worry about seeing those charges go down. Once those shields are down, clock starts ticking, and you'll need range, duration and more if you want to be close to as lazily immortal as now, instead of just strength.

[_GoodLuck_]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Pablogamer585 said:

As the Nº1 Revenant hater myself, friends who play with me can confirm this if necessary, I will add to this conversation by redirecting everyone's attention to a not-so recent change that happened to all frames, and that imo is extremely important in the case of Revenant for the sake of balancing out his Mesmer Skin: shields.

Revenant and Revenant Prime have some the highest shield capacity of all frames in the game, Prime being only second to Hildryn as a matter of fact, at 925.
With Primed Redirection, this goes as high as 2590. Now, I'm of the belief that limiting shield gating to 2'5s at 1250 shields isn't bad, but isn't enough for everyone.
Protea gets double-length shield gating thanks to her satellite drone, and Hildryn gets her 3.5 seconds due to her passive, but why stop there?

Revenant, Styanax and Harrow are prime examples of why the new shield rework + Primed Redirection & shield regen mods is just excellent, I personally subsumed off Final Stand from my Styanax since I find it meh and don't really enjoy throwing spears continuously as my only source of survivability, plus Rally Point grants shields to allies on assist so screw Overguard.
Point is, maybe make it even higher for those frames that can achieve higher shields, which aren't that many.
Even Atlas has great base shields for a health tanking frame... 🤨

Then, how would I nerf Revenant so people start building towards his shields instead of just pure strength + a damage helminth all the time, so that I don't eventually get sent to a mental asylum?
Making it a 90% DR ability for shields, but that can prevent oneshots to health with a fixed amount of charges.

Every hit player takes, deals 90% less damage to those massive shields, charges aren't consumed in said case.
If it's to health though, you have a maximum of 4 charges with 1 second of iframes that can be modded with your ability duration too, so that you can work towards recovering those shields. Mesmer shield grants the same effects to all allies, pets & NPCs included.

For the sake of also making more parts of Revenant's kit more used, and trying to force players to build for something more than just duration + strength, and into the frame's kit, not [redacted] helminth damage boosting which I'm sick of, Mesmer Skin could emit a pulse like does Nourish to put enemies to sleep & ready to be Enthralled, based on ability range, instead of just the one enemy that hit you. Said pulse would only happen on health hits.
On shields, it'll only stun the one enemy that attacked you, with the same cooldown as it has now, while on health, it'll pulse once per charge to give some extra evasion in order to recover those shields. Range could be base 7m radius so that building for range is great, while not, bad.

This way, there are more builds for him than just Rolling Guard + Max Strength + Energy + same old helminth, and you have to worry about seeing those charges go down. Once those shields are down, clock starts ticking, and you'll need range, duration and more if you want to be close to as lazily immortal as now, instead of just strength.

I like your PoV. Hope devs see this

[DeathOfASaint]

On 2024-02-12 at 4:43 PM, iHaku said:

yeah thats why you never see that frame in public games, right?

most used frame bruh, frankly doubt ur playing wf in 2024 if u arent seeing multitudes of revenants everywhere

[DeathOfASaint]

is it weird to think revenant is broken and doesn’t need nerf? he serves as a cheap frame for new ppl to build only needing strength and can danse can be subsumed out for roar pretty easily, like he’s weirdly healthy for the game? 

 

just a nice weps platform frame while being immortal and it’s not like he’s the highest dmg frame ever so level cap batters can say x frame is still better 

[(XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn]

10 hours ago, DeathOfASaint said:

frankly doubt ur playing wf in 2024 if u arent seeing multitudes of revenants everywhere

Looks to me like those are all PC players. Honestly I rarely see Revenant, not even in *gasp* Archon hunts!

[Tiltskillet]

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn said:

Looks to me like those are all PC players. Honestly I rarely see Revenant, not even in *gasp* Archon hunts!

Are you not on Crossplay?

From DE's usage data it looks like there's no significant difference between PC and XB for Rev Prime: ~5.2% vs 5.0%.  Interestingly last year XB (and PS) had higher usage of base Rev than PC, for whatever reason.

 

[(XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Are you not on Crossplay?

From DE's usage data it looks like there's no significant difference between PC and XB for Rev Prime: ~5.2% vs 5.0%.  Interestingly last year XB (and PS) had higher usage of base Rev than PC, for whatever reason.

 

I am on cross-play but, for whatever reason, I typically get matched with Xboxians. Man, do I love those rare PC hosts though! Did you know Survival can have more than 3 enemies at a time on a map?!

Also for whatever reason, DE did not release an easy access to console data as they have prior. I was unaware the Revenant usage was that close; I figured he was being skewed -- or perhaps skewered -- like Wukong and AOE weapons. Nope, I didn't use Wukong. Yep, I'm still bitter. 😂

I don't play as Revenant much at all but I do know he's pretty indestructible and has been for quite a while. I don't think he's overpowered, harms others, or makes a very good AFKer... I'd hate to see him nerfed -- especially for simply being universally enjoyed, as data has demonstrated.

[DeathOfASaint]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn said:

Looks to me like those are all PC players. Honestly I rarely see Revenant, not even in *gasp* Archon hunts!

i mean both of us just have anecdotal evidence at the end of the day but de’s own data shows him as the most played frame by a good margin so