Best Tennokai Mod? [poll]

[sly_squash]

 

 

VOTE HERE:   https://strawpoll.com/1MnwOKapAn7

Edited February 14 by sly_squash

[Aruquae]

I will be surprised if it isn't Discipline's Merit
Guaranteed tennokai is better than a chance
Especially considering I never get that chance with any of the other mods

Spoiler

Edit: I am surprised

 

Edited February 15 by Aruquae

[Aldain]

Dreamer's Wrath is probably the obvious pick for anything that can hit 100+% crit chance, followed by Master's Edge for things that just want solid hits.

But I could be wrong.

Edit: I mean specifically for anything not going full 12x Combo stacking (the "lol Corrupt Charge go brrr" builds), if that's the case then it's probably Discipline's Merit like Aruquae said.

Edited February 14 by Aldain

[UnstarPrime]

I honestly don't think there's a best.  It's like asking what's better: a nail or a screw?  Both have different pros and different cons, and which one you pick will be determined by which one is most in-line with the needs of your build.

[sly_squash]

2 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

I honestly don't think there's a best.  It's like asking what's better: a nail or a screw?  Both have different pros and different cons, and which one you pick will be determined by which one is most in-line with the needs of your build.

Best Metallic Fastener?  

VOTE HERE:   https://strawpoll.com/GeZAOXYX1nV

[UnstarPrime]

7 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Best Metallic Fastener?  

VOTE HERE:   https://strawpoll.com/GeZAOXYX1nV

I'm upset by how funny this is.

[Tiltskillet]

40 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Best Metallic Fastener?  

VOTE HERE:   https://strawpoll.com/GeZAOXYX1nV

Zipper.

[Pakaku]

They're all bad because Tennokai itself is bad. It's not a system that is going to catch on when it's a late-game unlock, and if it requires these mods to be active, and it's not going to be worth slotting any in without wasting more time grinding for adapters.

Compare the system to the Parazon finisher system... it's an innate ability everyone has by default, not to mention is possible to influence with Impact damage, which is another mechanic everyone can access by default.

Discipline's Merit is the least worst choice, but it's still bad since Tennokai's randomness holds it back in the first place. So you either "pay" and grind for the chance to get something that can fix Tennokai, or run another mod and lose out on fixing the system.

Edited February 15 by Pakaku

[quxier]

1 hour ago, sly_squash said:

1 hour ago, UnstarPrime said:

I honestly don't think there's a best.  It's like asking what's better: a nail or a screw?  Both have different pros and different cons, and which one you pick will be determined by which one is most in-line with the needs of your build.

Best Metallic Fastener?  

VOTE HERE:   https://strawpoll.com/GeZAOXYX1nV

Where is "they are bad because Tennokai is bad" option?

2 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

They're all bad because Tennokai itself is bad. It's not a system that is going to catch on if it requires these mods to be active, and it's not going to be worth slotting any in without wasting time grinding for adapters.

Discipline's Merit is the least worst choice, but it's still bad since Tennokai's randomness holds it back in the first place.

Almost this^.

I agree that Tennokai is horrible system. It's not that it isn't powerful. It's just like playing some trash game made in 1 hour after playing some "good enough". Compare it to Drifter/Duviri gameplay (at least at "base version", more later). You are fighting enemies. Enemy charges at you? You roll to side. Enemy want to slash you? You can parry and attack them. So on and so on. The interactions are between you and enemy(ies). Imagine situation like this. You need to hit enemy 5 times. You cannot just hold melee to attack. You need to avoid other attacks in the meantime. Now all of sudden you get 5x more strength/power so you can 1 hit kill enemy. Does this makes you proud of yourself? No. You haven't "outsmarted" enemy. You just get some buff. Same with Tennokai. You just sometimes gets more powerful strikes (except 'on 4 tennokai').

As for Base version of Drifter gameplay, it's sadly that good at beginning (I've not tested SP). Drifter intristic and Decrees give you HP. You get more damage. You can cheese some fights with "shooting from Kate".

 

And why I think Tennokai will catch on?

Some people doesn't care about what they do but only about damage.

Some people like RNG nature of it.

Even exilus adapters costs 20 plat. That's not too much.

Sadly, you are one of very few people that dislike (or hate) Tennokai that I've seen recently.

[CephalonOlphus]

1 hour ago, Pakaku said:

They're all bad because Tennokai itself is bad. It's not a system that is going to catch on when it's a late-game unlock, and if it requires these mods to be active, and it's not going to be worth slotting any in without wasting more time grinding for adapters.

Compare the system to the Parazon finisher system... it's an innate ability everyone has by default, not to mention is possible to influence with Impact damage, which is another mechanic everyone can access by default.

Discipline's Merit is the least worst choice, but it's still bad since Tennokai's randomness holds it back in the first place. So you either "pay" and grind for the chance to get something that can fix Tennokai, or run another mod and lose out on fixing the system.

Friendo out here fighting ghosts. "it's not a system that is going to catch on" is purely nonsense when you go on to compare it to parazon finishers, a system that a good chunk of the player base ignores.

It's (subjectively) fun to use, and fits in the newly added exilus slot in which only 1 other mod is worth using [Dispatch Overdrive]. It being late game also means nothing since you can't access Steel path or Arbitrations without getting tennokai first (unless you unlocked SP before they added the quest).

 

 

[ominumi]

Tennokai is very build dependent. The no brainer is Decilpine's Merit. Attack speed is far better than RNG. 20 million red crit every 10 seconds is hard to ignore.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, CephalonOlphus said:

It being late game also means nothing since you can't access Steel path or Arbitrations without getting tennokai first (unless you unlocked SP before they added the quest).

First, it being "late game" means a lot. Imagine being able to deal 10x or 15x more damage from time to time. For a new player that's a lot. "Late game player" can achieve same or more at faster ratio (deal more damage per second).

Secondly, you can get those mods (buy) probably as soon as you make MR 2 (so you can trade). Tennokai mods can be put in any slot.

[ReddyDisco]

Disciple's merit is what i use 90% of the time, opportunity's reach the other 10%.

[Berzerkules]

3 hours ago, Pakaku said:

They're all bad because Tennokai itself is bad. It's not a system that is going to catch on when it's a late-game unlock, and if it requires these mods to be active, and it's not going to be worth slotting any in without wasting more time grinding for adapters.

Compare the system to the Parazon finisher system... it's an innate ability everyone has by default, not to mention is possible to influence with Impact damage, which is another mechanic everyone can access by default.

Discipline's Merit is the least worst choice, but it's still bad since Tennokai's randomness holds it back in the first place. So you either "pay" and grind for the chance to get something that can fix Tennokai, or run another mod and lose out on fixing the system.

How much do you use melee? I play a lot of frames and almost every build is focused on maximizing my melee kps. If I had to guess I have probably 3m melee kills and I'm pretty psyched for free heavy attacks every 4 hits.

Wasting time grinding adapters? Why would anyone grind for adapters when it cost 75k standing, uses a forma and you have to wait for a day for it to craft it. That's over 2 days to earn standing, a day to craft forma and a day to craft the adapter. Screw that, I'm throwing 20p at that adapter and jumping into a mission to cut some fools up. 

IDK, maybe I'm just the type of player that these new melee additions were made for. Free heavy attacks and melee arcanes are a welcome addition to every loadout. 

Discipline most of the time and reach for silly range stuff like keratinos.

 

[CephalonOlphus]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Imagine being able to deal 10x or 15x more damage from time to time

The players who need more damage are very early game (like pre-phobos) and usually still learning how to mod in the first place. Tacking on a new feature that alters combat won't help them more than learning how to actually mod. There are players I know personally that are still learning to mod and have reached SP.

 

[Pakaku]

3 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

I'm pretty psyched for free heavy attacks every 4 hits.

Wasting time grinding adapters? Why would anyone grind for adapters when it cost 75k standing, uses a forma and you have to wait for a day for it to craft it. That's over 2 days to earn standing, a day to craft forma and a day to craft the adapter. Screw that, I'm throwing 20p at that adapter and jumping into a mission to cut some fools up. 

IDK, maybe I'm just the type of player that these new melee additions were made for. Free heavy attacks and melee arcanes are a welcome addition to every loadout. 

That's part of my point, it's not worth it when it's random, requires a mod to stop being random, should never be random by default, and requires grinding late-game mods and equipment to even free up a mod slot.

As for 20p, that's still paying to skip, and I don't like it when a system is designed around making you give up and hand over money (and yes, that means I don't like a lot of this game when it comes to pay-to-skip)

[Berzerkules]

20 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

That's part of my point, it's not worth it when it's random, requires a mod to stop being random, should never be random by default, and requires grinding late-game mods and equipment to even free up a mod slot.

As for 20p, that's still paying to skip, and I don't like it when a system is designed around making you give up and hand over money (and yes, that means I don't like a lot of this game when it comes to pay-to-skip)

You don't have to like it for it to be good. My melee builds are better than ever since the addition of tennokia mods and melee arcanes. I haven't had this much fun testing builds since helminth was released.

I also have no problem with paying to skip because I've made enough plat trading this week to unlock the exilus slot on every melee weapon in the game if I wanted to. 

[Aerikx]

15 hours ago, Pakaku said:

They're all bad because Tennokai itself is bad. It's not a system that is going to catch on when it's a late-game unlock, and if it requires these mods to be active, and it's not going to be worth slotting any in without wasting more time grinding for adapters.

Compare the system to the Parazon finisher system... it's an innate ability everyone has by default, not to mention is possible to influence with Impact damage, which is another mechanic everyone can access by default.

Discipline's Merit is the least worst choice, but it's still bad since Tennokai's randomness holds it back in the first place. So you either "pay" and grind for the chance to get something that can fix Tennokai, or run another mod and lose out on fixing the system.

Agreed. 

The concept behind Tennokai is...decent on paper but the execution is horrible. 

1. Melee should just have an Exilus slot, period. 

2. RNG is just a bad system for the system. Tennokai should be like a Berserk Mode/State the player enters. Similar to melee Incarnons, achieve a certain combo level/multiplier then activate Tennokai to "Devil Trigger" / "Rage Mode" and go all out. 

Instead, it's just free heavy attacks that miss 80% of the time because the combo animations are too flashy/stylish; and get ignored the other 25% of the time because the icon its really hard to notice

The Parazon (which still is criminally underused) was an amazing addition to the game. One that I want to see it get used more (especially for Bosses. Seriously DE, please make the others bosses more like The Jackal.)

Finishers, Hacking, Grapple Hook, restrainment cable (Capture Target), etc. 

3. It's far too late game

For for Melee Progression, Unlocking the Arcane Slot for melee works as a late game progression step. 

Tennokai and the Exilus slot? Absolutely not.

Infact, I'd argue that Tennokai should have its own slot and cost/add 0 Mod Capacity. The Tennokai mods should be selectable/customizable states/modes for players to customize to their play style.

Edited February 15 by Aerikx

[NeDesitVirtus]

Disciplines Merit by far is the most consistent for building combo. 

[quxier]

9 hours ago, CephalonOlphus said:

11 hours ago, quxier said:

Imagine being able to deal 10x or 15x more damage from time to time

The players who need more damage are very early game (like pre-phobos) and usually still learning how to mod in the first place. Tacking on a new feature that alters combat won't help them more than learning how to actually mod. There are players I know personally that are still learning to mod and have reached SP.

Yes, it won't help them in long run but the damage increase from Tennokai will be most visible by such players.

29 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

 

2. RNG is just a bad system for the system. Tennokai should be like a Berserk Mode/State the player enters. Similar to melee Incarnons, achieve a certain combo level/multiplier then activate Tennokai to "Devil Trigger" / "Rage Mode" and go all out. 

+1

 

[(PSN)Sentiel]

The best thing about Tennokai is the ability to slot Dispatch Overdrive in the new Exilus slot.

[(XBOX)Varzin]

I think it really depends on the weapon. For example I recently got inspired to make a Corufell build that uses Discipline's Merit. Corufell's heavy projectile shot is nice but has a long wind up, tennokai helps make better use of it.

For a weapon that just has a normal heavy attack something else might be better. If the heavy attack performs a wide sweep or spin then Opportunity's Reach might be good since you can hit a large group of enemies with one strong hit. I built a machete Zaw that works like this.

For other weapons I don't bother with tennokai at all, in those cases I prefer to use Dispatch Overdrive in the exilus slot if I can fit it in.

[UnstarPrime]

14 hours ago, quxier said:

Imagine being able to deal 10x or 15x more damage from time to time. For a new player that's a lot. "Late game player" can achieve same or more at faster ratio (deal more damage per second).

I honestly don't know how you can come to this conclusion.  Because it's not like by not using Tennokai you can instead use something else to boost your DPS; if you're looking at your melee Exilus slot and you're interested in damage, then it's Tennokai or nothing — and nothing doesn't increase your DPS.  So if we take the "late game player" you describe above and give them a Tennokai mod, then they'll be doing even more damage with their melee.

If you don't like Tennokai for whatever reason and don't want to use it, that's valid.  But it's simply inaccurate to say that Tennokai doesn't increase late-game players' damage.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, UnstarPrime said:

16 hours ago, quxier said:

Imagine being able to deal 10x or 15x more damage from time to time. For a new player that's a lot. "Late game player" can achieve same or more at faster ratio (deal more damage per second).

I honestly don't know how you can come to this conclusion.  Because it's not like by not using Tennokai you can instead use something else to boost your DPS; if you're looking at your melee Exilus slot and you're interested in damage, then it's Tennokai or nothing — and nothing doesn't increase your DPS.  So if we take the "late game player" you describe above and give them a Tennokai mod, then they'll be doing even more damage with their melee.

If you don't like Tennokai for whatever reason and don't want to use it, that's valid.  But it's simply inaccurate to say that Tennokai doesn't increase late-game players' damage.

Sure, you have free slot, slap Tennokai and you will have some boost. I'm not denying it. And you can make it work. Again, I'm not denying it.

I'm just saying that "late game player" has much more possibilities to do same or more damage in MORE RELIABLE WAY. Say you have armor strip, for example Styanax. You press a key, you use 25 energy and everyone in front of you have even 95+% ehp removed. You just need energy (which shouldn't be big problem at this stage) and you can use it everywhere (well... except some enemies & such).

Sure, Pary angle and 95% chance to Parry is probably bad. 50% damage done to enemies is situational. Taunting enemies might be helpful, especially with previous mod.

Speed boost is not direct DPS boost. However moving faster (while not attacking) makes you reach enemies faster, hence some DPS boost.

Whirlwind makes you reach farther so it's some kind of DPS. And tennokai doesn't work very well with them.

Tennokai? Except "on 4th" you have only chance. I had killed 20-40 enemies before it appeared. It increases your DPS if you get it. Otherwise you are wasting time:

- on heavies that are not needed and takes time (yes, tennokai doesn't speed up heavy attack itself)

- looking for enemies to hit

- not using it

 

[Hexerin]

Discipline's Merit is the only one worth using in my opinion. Consistency trumps the relatively small boosts others give.