Head Shots != Weak Points. Why? It's in the code.

[Xzorn]

I've always been baffled and now that Incarnons want to make a big deal of it. I feel it's time to ask.

What's the difference? You still have Moa, Crawler and all the other weak points from Damage 1.0 coded in the game.

Why do mods and weapons have to be subject and generally suffer from a rather nonsense ruling?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

11 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I've always been baffled and now that Incarnons want to make a big deal of it. I feel it's time to ask.

What's the difference? You still have Moa, Crawler and all the other weak points from Damage 1.0 coded in the game.

Why do mods and weapons have to be subject and generally suffer from a rather nonsense ruling?

Why not though? And what makes the ruling nonsense?

[Xzorn]

1 minute ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Why not though? And what makes the ruling nonsense?

 

Because the head is just a weak point for humanoids. This game obviously has more than humans in it.

Weak Point is a much better key word to use and also functions better throughout factions and unit types.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Because the head is just a weak point for humanoids. This game obviously has more than humans in it.

Weak Point is a much better key word to use and also functions better throughout factions and unit types.

But the condition for the effect doesn't need us to hit a weak point, which could be a much larger battery pack on a robot. Also, the head is usually facing us while attacking or pursuing, so it's easier to see and shoot what's directly facing you. 

[taiiat]

why? dunno. but what's Flagged as a Weakpoint (greater than 1.0x Damage) isn't necessarily Flagged as being the Head. 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[UnstarPrime]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

But the condition for the effect doesn't need us to hit a weak point, which could be a much larger battery pack on a robot. Also, the head is usually facing us while attacking or pursuing, so it's easier to see and shoot what's directly facing you. 

I'm not entirely sure sure what ruling we're talking since nobody has specified it yet, but Incarnons that say they charge on headshots actually charge on weak points.  An easy way to see this interaction is by shooting The Fragmented One's orbs.  In that way, the terminology of "headshot" in the Incarnon description/explanation is unfortunately misleading.

[Hexerin]

28 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

I'm not entirely sure sure what ruling we're talking since nobody has specified it yet, but Incarnons that say they charge on headshots actually charge on weak points.  An easy way to see this interaction is by shooting The Fragmented One's orbs.  In that way, the terminology of "headshot" in the Incarnon description/explanation is unfortunately misleading.

Try charging your headshot-based incarnon on a MOA's backpack (or any other enemy that similarly has a weakpoint that isn't a "head"), and let us know how that goes for you (spoiler: you get zero charge, despite it being a weakpoint, because it's not a "head").

The Murmur were introduced with weakpoints flagged as "heads" for incarnons, which dilutes the concept of "head" and shows that incarnon gameplay is significantly more fun when the player can obtain charge from any weakpoint and not just a physical head.

Incarnons that charge via headshots need to be updated to allow charge from any weakpoint, and to also obtain charge (at a reduced amount) from getting kills in general.

Edited February 23 by Hexerin

[Tiltskillet]

17 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

I'm not entirely sure sure what ruling we're talking since nobody has specified it yet, but Incarnons that say they charge on headshots actually charge on weak points. 

On some weakpoints.  The  ones I know of are on Murmur, where there are cases of Incarnon charging on a weakpoint that doesn't trigger other headshot conditions.

But Moas for instance have a "head" in front that triggers headshot conditions including Incarnon, but no damage multiplier.  And a fannypack weakpoint that triggers no headshot conditions, including Incarnon, and a damage multiplier.

So it's not totally simple.  But I haven't made a study of non-head weakpoints, so I don't know how "not totally simple" it is. 

[UnstarPrime]

3 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

Try charging your headshot-based incarnon on a MOA's backpack (or any other enemy that similarly has a weakpoint that isn't a "head"), and let us know how that goes for you (spoiler: you get zero charge, despite it being a weakpoint, because it's not a "head").

The Murmur were introduced with weakpoints flagged as "heads" for incarnons, which dilutes the concept of "head" and shows that incarnon gameplay is significantly more fun when the player can obtain charge from any weakpoint and not just a physical head.

Incarnons that charge via headshots need to be updated to allow charge from any weakpoint, and to also obtain charge (at a reduced amount) from getting kills in general.

Oh snap, so not only is the terminology confusing, but it's implemented inconsistently?  Hahahaha that's even worse than I thought...

[Pakaku]

5 minutes ago, Hexerin said:

The Murmur were introduced with weakpoints flagged as "heads" for incarnons, which dilutes the concept of "head" and shows that incarnon gameplay is significantly more fun when the player can obtain charge from any weakpoint and not just a physical head.

But in that case, it's not just any weakpoint, it's a point that is specifically defined as headshot compatible. Heads are defined the same way, it's just that they're also visually represented as, well, heads. MOAs still have heads that are compatible with headshot charging, even if they have backpacks that have a much higher weakspot multiplier, so you're still intended to shoot their headshot spot.

Edited February 23 by Pakaku

[Hexerin]

3 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

But it's not just any weakpoint, it's a point that is specifically defined as headshot compatible. Heads are defined the same way, it's just that they're also visually represented as, well, heads. MOAs still have heads that are compatible with headshot charging, even if they have backpacks that have a much higher weakspot multiplier, so you're still intended to shoot their headshot spot.

Yes, MOAs technically have a head. It's also tiny, and surrounded by much larger hitboxes that aren't a head, making it nearly impossible to consistently hit their head with any weapon that is capable of inflicting stagger (which is most weapons) or has a larger projectile (which will inevitably prioritize hitting the surrounding hitboxes instead of the head). This just circles back to my point, that requiring specifically headshots is bad design and reduces fun. Being a video game, fun should matter more than anything else, and most of the game is well designed in that regard... but then there's exceptions like this.

Edited February 23 by Hexerin

[Xzorn]

This doesn't just involve Inarnons as I mentioned. Mods are also affected. Inatroduction of Inarnons is just where I feel like this needs to be finally cleaned up. There are many enemies the weak point is nothing like a head. Bursa for instance. I feel if they're going to bring back emphasis on aiming they should do it via weak points.

[Hexerin]

31 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

This doesn't just involve Inarnons as I mentioned. Mods are also affected. Inatroduction of Inarnons is just where I feel like this needs to be finally cleaned up. There are many enemies the weak point is nothing like a head. Bursa for instance. I feel if they're going to bring back emphasis on aiming they should do it via weak points.

Incarnons are the most ubiquitous example of these types of mechanics these days, so just easier to use them for example in discussion.

Edited February 23 by Hexerin

[Skoomaseller]

4 hours ago, Hexerin said:

Try charging your headshot-based incarnon on a MOA's backpack (or any other enemy that similarly has a weakpoint that isn't a "head"), and let us know how that goes for you (spoiler: you get zero charge, despite it being a weakpoint, because it's not a "head").

The Murmur were introduced with weakpoints flagged as "heads" for incarnons, which dilutes the concept of "head" and shows that incarnon gameplay is significantly more fun when the player can obtain charge from any weakpoint and not just a physical head.

Incarnons that charge via headshots need to be updated to allow charge from any weakpoint, and to also obtain charge (at a reduced amount) from getting kills in general.

they also need to make it so deadhead arcanes stack when I kill them hitting that weak point — kinda sucks playing vs non-humanoids with deadhead since they have nontraditional "heads." 

[ominumi]

Bosses with invulnerable phases also have weakpoints and headshots. It's not as clear cut as it should be. At least the mods are functioning as it's stated.. 

[Xzorn]

2 hours ago, ominumi said:

Bosses with invulnerable phases also have weakpoints and headshots. It's not as clear cut as it should be. At least the mods are functioning as it's stated.. 

 

Old bosses did follow the original Weak Point system. Look no further than The Sergent.

What the title says "It's in the code" is quite literal. Weak Points are still there. In Damage 2.0 they just transitioned to a multiplier. They want to reward aiming. I get it and I'm for it but use the Weak Point system because it's universally functional on all units, factions, Incarnons, Mods, Arcanes, everything. It's cut and dry easy to understand.

[Shonfrost]

I definitely agree. This game has too many body types (which is great, by the way) to have mod/effect wording all revolve around "headshots". Every form of headshot triggered effect should be normalized to weak points in general. Basically: if it gives a damage bonus/it's a destroyable part of an enemy, it also triggers "headshot" effects.